SMASH ULTIMATE MOVE TIER LIST (ft. MockRock)

[@MrMockRock]

It’s an hour and a half AFTER editing? My god we’re nerds. Thanks for having me on man, was a great time!

[@Squiferz]

how long was it pre-editing?

[@imESAM]

i think 2 hour 20 minutr

[@dennisd.4726]

​@imESAM pretty informative and interesting video. Thanks for the effort put in.

[@fundashingtomato260]

@@imESAM are you going to post the full video to any site?

[@TheLronGiant]

@@imESAMthe people would love to get the unedited version. They crave theorycraft.

[@kohlkurtzhals2253]

"Esam opinions, am i right?" Is the most accurate smash quote i've ever heard

[@kageedgar4002]

Mockrock ended up having the stupidest takes

[@JB_CY]

The crossover of the century

[@3m411]

YUYUYU FOR EVER !!

[@JB_CY]

@@3m411 yooooooo

[@roboticoperatingbuddy5443]

now we just need a tier list of EVERY SINGLE MOVE IN THE GAME

[@JuicyJayce69]

PLEASE

[@SadMatte]

no

[@ViorbyX]

Well, for each character per list

[@SushiElemental]

First let's make a tier list of all the tier lists

[@a_little_flame589]

keep mockrock on

[@KrispyKorpse]

THIS IS THE COLLAB WE'VE ALWAYS NEEDED BUT NEVER KNEW!!! Literally the collab of a lifetime, my 2 favorite content creators getting together to speak about the technicalities of ultimate. I love it. Seriously this is absolutely so hype. If I didn't have 5 hw assignments due and class in 10 minutes, I'd binge this entire thing right now.

[@roboticoperatingbuddy5443]

I skipped class to watch this

[@alexneuman600]

The glazing is actually crazy 😭

[@e554]

technical

[@SlimCloud9]

1:09:26 "Some of the worst games in the move are neutral specials" -Esam 2023

[@iceddiamondsyt]

Esam opinion, am i right?

[@TheLronGiant]

By my count there are 10 neutral b’s that suck. Not counting Ivysaur or Miis bc that’s a little different and i’m only pretty sure every Mii has at least one bad one.

[@TheLronGiant]

But also falcon punch might be the worst move in the game

[@SlimCloud9]

@@TheLronGiant Agreed

[@nc7718]

Falcon punch, warlock punch, rollout, blurring blade, exploding side kick, bullet seed, failnaught...

[@SeNki3301]

Craziest crossover in a while. You guys are two of my favorite Smash tubers. Really awesome how you guys share ideas between each other!

[@kingrhoam93]

28:51 an argument that even Mockrock has used before, Chrom's Up-B is the only thing keeping him in check, if he had Roy's hed be top 3 (if not the literal best). Smash being a platform fighter by default makes the recovery the most important move. Look at link in 64, he'd tell you that recovery is more necessary than a good back air.

[@vietphamvan8254]

I mean he will never be the best because there is STEVE that can cancel his knock back

[@jakedanley9833]

I'm not sure if Esam saying "Forward Aerial" was supposed to be a reference to Alpharad's old smash content, but when I heard him use that to start off the tier list I lost it lmao

[@LARAUJO_0]

43:09 You missed the big slow strong down Bs (Byleth, Dedede, Ridley, Piranha Plant, & Hero's Hatchet Man) and the "become unactionable but invincible" ones (Kirby & Hero's Kaklang), but I don't think they're enough to knock it down considering how many really good down Bs there are

[@SunshineRey]

Thing about Hero is you have to choose to use those moves so you’re unlikely to choose them unless they are the best move in that instance otherwise just shield and retry, Kirby gets the easiest edgeguards from stone and escapes disadvantage pretty well with the combination of his five midair jumps, dair and down b, and D3 has a way to pressure you while charging down b so you could neutral getup/jump and get hit by gordo or roll/ledge hang and get hit by down b. The rest are pretty bad on their kits though.

[@shyguyissoawesomeguys]

@@LARAUJO_0 yeah like the other commenter kinda said, hero's down B shouldn't really count for your argument because sure, there's two bad ones and a couple that can be bad at the wrong time but there's also ridiculously good spells for hero and dedede gets surprising use out of jet hammer thanks to being an insanely ledge-trapping heavy character

[@syrupshrike9742]

Having both these guys talking at the same time makes me realize how much Esam talks like he doesn't want to wake up his parents.

[@zz_peyton_zz5666]

You two should collab more often; it’s really entertaining to watch and think about the moves in Smash

[@4137Swords]

I literally compared his and yours move tier lists for each move to see the differences, so this is unexpected 😂

[@robstanley46]

57:42 don’t tell ‘em about Yoshi’s side B😂

[@perriwinkleiii5361]

Great crossover and great list overall! Due to some of MockRock's points, I would personally give the edge to Nair for the #1 move category, but only by a hair

[@BWAM.SKWAMP]

What does hair stand for?

[@perriwinkleiii5361]

@BWAM.SKWAMP LOL no I was just saying "by a hair" which means "barely". Hair is not the name of an aerial lol

[@BWAM.SKWAMP]

@perriwinkleiii5361 ik I was joking you dw lol

[@whaloob]

My thing with jab is it’s so important for enabling the shield pressure of so many characters just by virtue of being most characters’ fastest move. Almost any character with a particularly safe aerial relies heavily on their jab. A lot of jabs also start tech chases and are faster than the same characters’ dtilts making them useful neutral tools even outside of scrambles.

[@TheLronGiant]

Yeah the low hitlag of the vast majority of jabs is being somewhat underrated here which is strange to me bc it’s the same concept that makes keeps mythra from getting OoS punished consistently. Also almost every character has a 1-2 or 1-2-3 that they can mix. But also jabbing on shield gets significantly worse if you don’t have good, fast mix to accompany it so ehhhhhhh.

[@lmao2302]

Yeah but most jabs give the middest reward of all time except for the absurd outliers.

[@CoffeeHype7356]

0:42 it is 42 seconds into the video and we already have some shots fired

[@kestrelynn]

I just realised that with how open and undefinitive this idea is, it was the perfect one to get a guest on for different opinions, especially someone like mockrock

[@primeministersinister4541]

Idk about the down B placement. There are a lot of mid/bad down specials in the game that are either too niche or downright unusable

[@flinch2440]

gyro though

[@silvergalaxia8538]

Looking through the full roster I don't really see it tbh. The only really bad down bs are stuff like byleth, ridley, plant, and a few meh counters like shulk or ike. Other then that they're often an essential and completely unique part of a characters' gameplan, and even the more niche ones still have their use cases.

[@MrGameguyC]

Wasn't expecting a video like this, but enjoyable regardless. This list seems pretty on-point, my only change would swap F-Tilt & F-Smash. Many characters simply never touch their F-Smashes due to the risk, they're really just there for reads and really good positions. It's difficult to argue in their favor when you can always use another move with a little less payoff but is much safer. Worst I can say about F-Tilts is that they're just simple "I need to hit you with something" and they do it fairly well. You'll find way more examples of F-Tilts being used and working out in confident sets.

[@myahz8650]

I never expected this crossover but I love it

[@bloodydoll5897]

44:00 god i love corrin they are so cool

[@tenshi7751]

1:26:40 I clicked RIGHT to this I have NEVER been called out so hard

[@Andreecals]

I think some examples of important side tilts for their kits are bowser's, hero's, ddd's, k rool's and sheik's, as they provide a unique function that matters.

[@thescarfguy]

I would argue Bowser shouldn't be on that list. It is clearly his best two frame, but he has two other amazing ones in down tilt and down smash, which makes it not add something unique to his kit

[@Andreecals]

@@thescarfguy i agree partially on dsmash, as there's much more commitment, but I don't dtilt is a good move for almost anything, it's outclassed in every role by ftilt.

[@gbx4858]

@@thescarfguy I'd say down tilt is the one that adds nothing unique to his kit. It less safe on shield, way worse at killing, laggier, its pretty much outclassed by ftilt in nearly every way

[@shyguyissoawesomeguys]

​@@thescarfguyyeah as others have said, down tilt is severely outclassed by forward tilt. when it comes to two framing, f-tilt is a much better angle + knockback, and combined with his fire breath which gives him a free opportunity to use it, it's an insanely good two framing move

[@Alibaba-id1cs]

YOOOO IS THAT NICHE KZbinR ESAM WITH POPULAR SMASH CREATOR MOCKROCK?

[@gengarisnotinsmash...]

Finally, a tier list where mock rock can't go "Let's do all the mario characters" 2 minutes into the video!

[@justalex3880]

This was soooo godlike. Hope it was fun for both of them! It was certainly fun to watch

[@BigNoseEntmt]

ESAM ft. MockRock, a better crossover than Smash itself?

[@Ban-zx9se]

It's weird watching these two debate since ESAM typically tiers within isolated context of the move while MR typically tiers within context of the character. PLEASE DO MORE

[@SuperSonieroxa]

It wouldn't be much of a debate if people basically had identical views. Would make for a boring video of just having yesterday men and nothing but agreeing

[@AlexRose-qd3or]

1:09:25 “Also some of the worst games in the move are neutral specials” ESAM 2023

[@nc7718]

Falcon punch, warlock punch, rollout, blurring blade, exploding side kick, bullet seed, failnaught...

[@jinxeatsdust]

​@@nc7718failnaught is Okay :)

[@AlexRose-qd3or]

@@nc7718read my comment again, carefully. You’ll see what joke I’m making

[@theillusionist1494]

@@nc7718I think you misread the quote

[@pepper6592]

ESAM did NOT have to put the marss clip in the dair segment 😭

[@quantwomwhale5984]

Now, I know Ftilts are not that good, but something about throwing out a usually lackadaisical looking move that just sends someone flying is so funny to me so I love using Ftilts

[@legendarysoil1064]

Most hype crossover since smash bros itself

[@fantastic_jarod2391]

56:07 my favorite esam quote of all time (im an incin main)

[@sarahsloot2290]

Wonderful content! Would love another if this type of thing.

[@googa9689]

Im so glad mockrock is giving visibility to other smaller creators

[@Andreecals]

Where would you rank up-forward tilt, down-forward tilt, down-back tilt, up-back tilt, the different dtilts and the antijump pirana attack?

[@Sunray625]

I have been waiting for this collab for a while

[@benvanderwell7700]

Hit ‘em with the FORWARD AERIAL

[@MousaThe14]

I’m sure Esam has never heard of someone who has arrived to his channel only because of MockRock but here I am.

[@jackiswellCool]

Elite combination my favourite smash pro and favourite smash youtuber

[@RavenTV360]

YES! THE ALL-KNOWING DUO

[@jtwk3400]

The collab that was bound to happen

[@DauntlessBlade___]

A crossover we needed

[@totallyanonymous3010]

Everyone having recovery with up B: *Jigs:*

[@beegbeeg507]

FIRE UPLOAD

[@davispo7550]

These kind of philosophical discussions are what validate esports as sports imo

[@nuclearether7485]

crazy crossover

[@Mechman2001]

Nice collab!!!! Do more please!!!

[@thunderd7904]

1:09:25 "Also some of the worst games in the move are neutral specials" ESAM, you really gotta work on that drinking problem.

[@nc7718]

Falcon punch, warlock punch, rollout, blurring blade, exploding side kick, bullet seed, failnaught...

[@thunderd7904]

@@nc7718 I was pointing out how he said "games in the move" and not "moves in the game". Wasn't disagreeing with the point he was trying to make

[@phermion]

I believe the reason there were a lot of bair chain toon link clips in early ultimate is because they used to be true before Bair got nerfed

[@TrpdFsh]

Have you considered doing a recovery tierlist for every charecter?

[@stormRed]

The collab I never knew I wanted

[@NewCoke7]

When I saw this video I made an audible squeal of joy

[@ruairicarroll7093]

I AM STRAPPED IN AND READY FOR THIS VIDEO

[@notlouistheroux]

YOOOOOOO crossover of the century

[@alexmyska7244]

The meta developments that have taken place since this video released have been interesting. First of all, Footstool -> Dair OOS has become such a big deal in high-level play that I think it gets out of bottom tier completely. Second, due to the high emphasis placed on punish games over neutral recently, neutral moves are overall less valuable than moved in advantage/punish games, so Up Air specifically I think should overtake Nair. Lastly, because of how optimized Ultimate’s punish game has become, more committal moves are so much more risky. F Smash particularly is a completely useless move in so many matchups at top level, so I think it belongs in bottom tier. The same thing applies on a smaller level to Dash Attack, since most aren’t safe enough to use in neutral. I’d put Dash Attack at the bottom of A Tier, since Up Smash and Up Tilt are usually a more vital part of combos and are either less committal or provide more reward than Dash Attack.

[@gavingrullon3361]

I absolutely love you esam thank you for improving my smash skills I hope the best for you!

[@punzilla4421]

31:31 omg ESAM 😳

[@thicccpenguinboi2221]

Finally the collab and video I have wanted for YEARS!

[@raphaelchan7574]

Yessss! The ultimate collab is here!

[@wor2xfs250]

Great video!

[@MxPinky]

I feel like the aerials are inherently alright due to the fact they are tried to jump, but I don't disagree when considering all factors

[@WhimsicalLittledawg]

Does anyone know when he... Actually nevermind, because apparently he hates that. Nice tier list, ESAM!...

[@ShowWithNoName]

A character is usually not using their job because things are going well.

[@shinykazuo]

Esam uploading a smash tier list video right after I do??? Nice!

[@aidensimpson4427]

Of course side b is top tier! Have you seen corrin pin?

[@illford]

Chrom jab is Melee Fox Jab. Ive seen people link ridiculous things out of fox jab

[@illialidur8244]

Bro I thought Jab would go way higher. Jabs can be crazy.

[@illialidur8244]

Yo wait I’m a channel member?

[@hecdudeh2o969]

This is a great video thank you

[@Rael-777]

When analyzing smash is as enjoyable as playing it. :D

[@bone_ftw]

day 1 ultimate player watches this on mute and it looks like a really bad mario move tl made by two mario players

[@cupcakemedia1143]

I'm so pissed about this video in particular because it is controversial and I am a KZbin commenter.

[@ZeGrillMaster]

Why when esam is listening he stares into your soul

[@researchinbreeder]

Regarding back airs: The fact that Marth (and co) and Puff turn around after Bair is a downside is all you need to know.

[@xtroyr_5747]

I love you both, fellass

[@dragonleo_lemon7184]

pika's nair in melee is rlly good

[@2sweg4u28]

Um, you forgot Jumping🤓

[@aqua_serene]

Crazy suggestion, so please don't do it if you don't want to, but what if you made a tier list of every single move of every single character in ultimate together?

[@Andreecals]

I was really thinking you'd mention hero's downB as a standalone example

[@3thhackz531]

ESAM: Mr Mock Rock: The big question is…

[@sigurdtheblue]

I feel like Wolf would have a bottom tier down tilt. I remember it being a pointless move. I actually think Bowser Jr's is one of the better ones. I also wonder why Meta Knight up smash is not considered one of the worst. It fits in that category of being overly precise even though it looks like it is not. I think any skilled Meta Knight would say to never use it. Oh, that Rubberduck Method thing is something I have encountered a lot, but sometimes it can also be things like me being in a terrible mood or something but it magically resolves when I am telling people about it.

[@47MandM47]

Around 1:19:10 it's mentioned that Pika's nair has "advantage on landing" and can be "+11 sometimes". Can anyone explain to me what this means and how this is calculated? I don't see anything related to this in Ultimate Frame Data, for example.

[@imESAM]

You can just calculate it by doing a move and then seeing how soon you can act before your opponent

[@slowstorm686]

Great callab! I want more

[@Okenpo]

Is there a tier list for throws?

[@dedgoat-e1l]

I mean you didnt even mention shiek ftilt, broken and as vital as up air

[@tannorsoeder3774]

Remember to finish the other tierlist too lmao

[@Dontannoyme34894]

You can down air on stage too idk if you guys mentioned that. It’s not ONLY just for edge gaurding

[@Andreecals]

They did mention it

[@SuperSonieroxa]

An example of someone who comments during while they haven't finished a video.

[@Andreecals]

@@SuperSonieroxa I mean, it IS a very long video, I did that too xD

[@ShowWithNoName]

You guys talked about bad side specials and did not bring up Yoshi?

[@marlinmurrell620]

Imo, I think down air is slightly better than jab

[@lastnamefirstname8655]

nice collab! ssbu move tier list!

[@koldking]

WHERE IS THE REST OF YOUR REGULAR TIER LIST BALD

[@AlainReyes]

The difference in their mics audio makes it so hard for me to watch this

[@jackiswellCool]

Mock can you do a tier list or pika's moves then have esam react to it?

[@poke_dragon24]

1:10:28 god dangit man why did you have to do that to me. It's true but still why?

[@lolwut77777777777]

Throw tier lists when?

[@compactpizza6337]

If u don’t know why pika fell off, I feel that vars III did a good job of explaining. “Why nobody plays pikachu”

[@aronsmith3417]

"also some of the worst games in move are Neutral Specials" - ESAM, 2023 EDIT: i flubbed it ;-;

[@henryhacker5076]

Throws and Grabs!

[@ph1lny3]

I'm surprised when talking about dair they didn't discuss how many of them are made much worse by how many "stall then fall" dairs there are. Casuals love them, but maaaaan they are so committal and even when they are trying to do what they're "intended" for (mixing up when being juggled), they are so telegraphed. For example, I'll take Melee Sheik's Dair over every iteration after any day, so I can at least have a meaty, downward hitbox for edgeguarding. A lot of them can 2-frame, but the slow startup can make it unwieldy since it means faster recoveries can mix up timing more easily around them.