SMD/BGA tests part 1

[@16mmDJ]

Thank you for sharing your research with us! I'm considering getting a T8280, and it was great to learn these lessons through your experience!💌

[@tony359]

A pleasure to be able to help! Part 2 will come at some point but I can tell you that there is no further comments on the T8280. It’s ok for casual use from my point of view - and absolutely necessary for most SMD work! Thanks for watching!

[@christopherjackson2157]

I like how methodically you approach your work. Its very much hypothesize, experiment, reason about what happened, and repeat until you get the result you are looking for.

[@tony359]

Thank you! Part 2 is still in my plans, watch this space!

[@David_Hogue]

I found my multimeter's type K thermocouple was much more accurate if I used a small bit of metal tape under the kapton tape. I don't know if it was due to a larger thermal mass or making a good connection to ground, but it got the probe to within 2-4 °C of the IR thermometer. Without it the probe could be 20 °C below the IR. I used approximately a 10mm square of Nashua brand tape from the hardware store that I had around from sealing some of my furnace air ducts.

[@tony359]

Oh, that sounds like an amazing trick! I shall try that indeed! Thank you!

[@KyleSand]

Thanks again for sharing, it has helped me develop my process for bga rework using this preheater.

[@tony359]

You're welcome, the video is very old and I planned a sequel for a LONG time :)

[@weekal5515]

i found that you need to set the heat gun at a much higher temp because of air heat dissipation, about 380~400 for the heat gun. might take some time to get used too but ill work quick

[@tony359]

I know someone uses higher temperatures on their gun - and each gun is different - but I don’t like the idea of blasting 400 degrees on my chips. I see what you mean: by the time the air reaches the chip, it’s not 400 anymore. Well, on my tests (which I am still doing!) with my new hot air station I see that I can lift a chip easily with 320 degrees and in 30-45 seconds so that looks ok for me. In the end it’s a balance between time and temperature of course. I feel that if you have a pre-heater and you’re doing things right (such as measuring temps properly), there’s no need to go higher. I’ve seen KZbinrs reflowing chips on thick GPU boards with no preheating: that will definitely require 500 degrees to work but can’t say I agree with the procedure! 🙂 Thanks for watching!

[@GeorgeGeorge-xj2bc]

The great misconseption about heating profiles is that actually are totally useless in manual process.Bottom preheat at 200C and then heat up the bga until the solder melts and guess what.It is a lot more difficult than initally thought that might cause heat damage to the board,in fact it is exactly the opposite.I use preheating plate and a cheap professional hand held heat gun and in many cases is needed the higher scale of speed and temperature to start the bga to flow on its solder.It depends from the pcb,its size and how many layers has,thermal pads and so on.So the only rule is heat it up until the underneath solder melts and have no worries.

[@tony359]

I don't disagree, there are too many variables. As you say, the size of the chips and the thickness/layers of the board will change everything. That said, Let me politely disagree with using the highest temperature available (this is what I understood from your message): it might 1. bring the temp up too quickly 2. overheat the outer part of the chip while the rest of the chip gets its heat sucked away from the PCB. I'd say the truth is in between! Thanks for the constructive comment though - and for watching!

[@mysfiring]

I would *love* to see you with a profile creation/tutorial video! I currently have a similar setup myself, and because I kept overshooting things gave up in the end - I would love to have an excuse to learn how to do profiles properly, though! :D

[@tony359]

I had a second part planned, one day maybe 🙂

[@NoCodeFilmmaker]

If you press the Xbox 360 eject and sync button together at the same time it gives you an error code. You press them together four times and the number of red lights will blink differently. You can then go online google or gpt the error code. I believe this can also work for E74 etc.

[@tony359]

Yes, I discovered this feature not too long ago! Believe it or not, that XBOX is still on a shelf waiting to be fixed. Watch this space!

[@mufeedco]

Thank you. You did the hard work for this T-8280 preheater.

[@tony359]

Thank you! Yes I tend to overthink things sometimes! At least now I have a base where to start from - and I hope I’ve saved T-8280 owners the hassle of doing their own tests!

[@diyzona]

How does components on the lower side don't get off if solder is melting there too?

[@tomych20]

Heat the board using the bottom heating to 150-170 degrees, the bottom heater should be set to 250-270 degrees. set the top heating to 280-300 degrees and everything will work out in the best possible way! The board should be located at a distance of 1.5 cm from the bottom heater. Monitor the temperature of the board using a pyrometer. Good luck to you!

[@migor777]

Those are osimple yet detailed instructions! Will try !

[@DaveRepairs]

Very interesting... i have a machine i picked up from a company closuer, its older version of something you have, I don;t understand it and instructions are vague... its still not switched on but wanted to see how not to hurt boards especially plastics sockets.. useful

[@tony359]

Definitely useful! Good luck!

[@DaveRepairs]

@@tony359 Just had a look at the reball jig vid.. hmm ... interesting.. I do arcade repair so researching and BGA is cropping up

[@tony359]

it's an art :) Which I still haven't mastered fully! I envy those techs who seem to be able to reball a modern GPU with ease and poor equipment!

[@jogg5804]

Why dont you bend or take out and pull back thermocouple from t8280 for making it facing upwards and actually touching motherboard?

[@tony359]

Those "ball shaped" thermocouples will never show a surface temperature even if they're touching it. I'd rather know the approximate heater temperature and monitor the board at the top with a better thermocouple or a laser thermometer.

[@stoptheirlies]

Hi Tony, only just seen this one, first thing I notice is that you appear to have the same hot air station as me, are you aware that it comes set to 60 Hz and there is a procedure to select 50Hz on the buttons if you are in the UK, It should be in it's manual. Bob Oh! if you need the manual I have it. Bob

[@tony359]

Hi there - I sold that station some time ago. I don't remember seeing that option but it was a long time ago. Thanks for mentioning!

[@MrBlingBlingNr1]

i removed the bga from a xbox 360 with only a cheap heatgun. But sadly i burned some of the soldermask underneath.

[@tony359]

It’s very common unfortunately. For BGA it’s very unlikely to succeed with a heat gun - and also difficult with proper tools.

[@Plan-C]

Nice, honest video. It is not as easy as others make it look.

[@tony359]

Thank you so much, I do appreciate your comment! I am still working on part 2, as soon as I feel a bit more comfortable with my technique, I'll make another part!

[@dzidziaka]

Hi Tony! What do you think to add "normal" upper preheater (i.e 400W) instead of hot-air? What do you think of using Marlin 3d printing software and hardware for temperature control? Marlin has PIDs autotune feature.

[@tony359]

Hey there - thanks for watching! Can I know more about the ‘upper preheater’ you have in mind? I’m only aware of hot air and IR heater, but I’m definitely not an expert on this subject. Regarding PIR controls, there are definitely lots of ways to automate a reflow or a reball with this type of equipment. I don’t use that very often so I think my experiments show that the manual way is ok for casual use. I’m sure the system could be automated but my two concerns are 1. The plates are very slow in reacting 2. I honestly feel you’d need IR temp sensors for any type of temperature monitoring. Happy to be proven wrong of course 🙂

[@dzidziaka]

Upper preheater: IR heater from the top of heated plate 😀. By using PID you have to have exactly temperature you set, and under good control. You can connect the T-8280 to Marlin too (to the board where Marlin is running, i.e Skr mini) and run autotune PID too. It is working in 3d printer world and idea for rework station is similar. Tomorrow I have to go to the shop for 50x50 fan for my IR "upper" :) preheater because original chinese crap went with smoke ;), and do some test with my idea.

[@tony359]

@@dzidziaka sounds cool. I’ll take a look at the Marlin. Can you share where to get the IR heater?

[@dzidziaka]

@@tony359 KZbin is deleting a message when I put the link to the aliexpress (?). Please find on ali "ir 6500 heater"

[@dzidziaka]

@@tony359 It is working :). I did PID autotune and some test. I can control the temperature. I did some profile simulating, (set temperature, wait for temperature, wait 20 seconds, increase to higher, do-something-if :). If you have a little more expensive Marlin board, you can connect i.e 4 temperature probes and 4 heaters and control everything (heaters with autotuned PID), fans for cooling. If you have a qustion, you can reach me at whatsapp/mail.

[@KyleSand]

Will these ali express machines work in north american 240v 60hz power?

[@tony359]

Each seller is a different world, you need to check with them 🙂

[@Todestelzer]

Use a good Hotmail station is the best Tipp here. I started with a cheap 60€ hot air station and the difference between the cheap and the expensive one I now have is huge.

[@tony359]

Spot on. I upgraded my station to a Quick (you can find the review here kzbin.info/www/bejne/f4e7n6uYoc51g8k) and the difference is incredible. Thanks for watching!

[@solosailorsv8065]

What specifically was Better with the more expensive system, please?

[@Todestelzer]

@@solosailorsv8065 the temperature is stable. The cheap one pulsed the temp more than the quick station. It makes if difficult to desolder parts. 2 of 2 cheap stations broke after couple months of use too.

[@tony359]

@@solosailorsv8065 I made a quick review here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/f4e7n6uYoc51g8k

[@solosailorsv8065]

@@Todestelzer thanks !

[@NicksStuff]

11:15 You never checked the temperature of the other side of the board, though. How were you certain it was not too high?

[@tony359]

I never considered that but it's the other side of a board, I'd expect a delta but not so much. It won't be 100C hotter! Thanks for watching!

[@NicksStuff]

@@tony359 I'd be afraid the components on the bottom side would reflow (and possibly fall or be damaged) before the top side is at 180°C 😬

[@tony359]

That's a lead free board, it would need to go over 220C for components to reflow. And solder doesn't instantly melt at 220C, lead free solder properly flows at 230/240C. If using the pre-heater with leaded solder, then pre-heat up to 140/150C.

[@stoptheirlies]

Tony i wouldn't even bother with profiles for repair work, your pre-heater will have been designed to heat it up and cool it down at an acceptable rate, just get on and do it. You do need to know that there will be about 100 degrees between the plate and the board if you have a gap, and you are, also be aware of the different melting points of leaded and none leaded. What you are showing about the hot air at the output is why you must keep the tip moving all around the chip . Bob

[@tony359]

my preheater is a BBQ grille, I don't see much "design" in it LOL! But you are right. This is an old video, since then I learnt that profiles work in an industrial environment when everything is tightly controlled. I'd be happy to "just do it" but I keep burning everything. Take a look at my latest PS4 repair video where I detailed my reflow process. The internet is pointing me to 1000 different directions so I haven't found a proper process so far.

[@agustincardenas2825]

great research and thanks of sharing!!

[@tony359]

Thanks! My journey continues :)

[@WilliamVG]

Nothin ventured, nothin gained. Thanks for the video.

[@tony359]

Thank you for watching! And part 2 is in the making - I know, it's been a while... :)

[@hebeebeehe1727]

im my own master now

[@ttkoh123]

Please link the funnel nozzle.

[@tony359]

I cannot remember where I got it but you should get one which fits your station. They're readily available on Ebay and other sellers.

[@danielbassa]

Hi man, I have a KZbin Channel as you and I know the difficulty that it brings showing this kind of process. You keep making excellent vídeos. Congrarulations! Can you tell us how long and temperature are you using to bake motherboard before reflowing or reballing it? Thank you.

[@tony359]

Thank you! The process is very much in progress. So far it's a two-steps process. A week into my "dry box" which is around 15% humidity. Then 2 hours or more at 100C in the oven (I use the pre-heater with a hood). You could start at 90 and end at 125C. But that doesn't seem to be enough unless I use a specific "profile" I am still working on. I'll share when I get to a repeatable point.

[@danielbassa]

@@tony359 Thank you very much!

[@GilbertoFreitasMendes]

Nice video! I believe a nozzle too big with a hot air volume too high. Greetings from Brasil.

[@tony359]

Bom dia! That's an old video, I have a much better station now! :) I've been thinking of a part 2 for a long while :) Thank you!

[@ziafathussain8546]

The hot air is crap buy a ir heater 150w it works perfectly

[@tony359]

I got a better hot air station meanwhile! The one I was using in this old video was definitely crap! :)

[@ziafathussain8546]

@tony359 I didn't mean your smd station is crap I ment hot air is crap specially when the heater is not wide enough and by using high temperature and spending more time heatkng you just damage the chip the ir I'm telling you about is 150w and it heats upto 260•c no need for temperature control etc just place it on the chip a couple of centimetres away and wait a couple minutes the chip will come right and very good for reflowing

[@tony359]

I see what you mean, I do feel that a proper hot air station with the proper technique can also be suitable. After all, it's heat. My new hot air station is 1300W and has a max airflow of 200L/s. The one in this video can barely do 40L/s. What you describe depends - in my experience - on the low airflow and the bad heat uniformity. So when the station is set to, say, 300C, you have a very uneven flow, some of it is going to be 450C, some of it 250C. The part of the IC receiving the 450C won't be happy. My previous Aoyue station was that bad. If you want, take a look at the review I made of the new station, I show the uniformity issue there. kzbin.info/www/bejne/f4e7n6uYoc51g8k But I am no expert whatsoever :)

[@svengrimm9255]

wheres part 2? Enjoy your videos, subscribed!

[@tony359]

Thanks a lot! Part 2 will come... I am still experimenting and I will make a part 2 at some point, I promise! :)

[@svengrimm9255]

@@tony359 Hey Toni, im about to order Temperature measure Units. You Said in the Video the IR is perfect. Why Not buy dual Channel Type k ? Greetings

[@tony359]

@@svengrimm9255 My tests showed that K-type thermocouples are inaccurate. Nothing wrong with the sensors of course but I think it’s the fact that they barely touch the PCB because of the ball-shape. Particularly at higher temperature the kapton tape I use to keep them stuck on the board loosens up and you end up with a gap between the PCB and the sensor. Another user recommended using aluminium tape between the PCB and the sensor: it’s better but I find the laser meter more accurate be honest. That being said, I’ve just searched and found that there are ‘flat’ thermocouples available! I’ll give them a try for sure. I still feel that a laser meter is very helpful regardless as the thermocouple can only give you an idea of the surrounding temperature.

[@frizzlefry1921]

@@tony359 On car amps I worked on the thermocouple was crimped in a end with a eyelet that you could bolt on. Others they had a thermal puddy on surface k type in it and a foam pad on top that was pressed on top with plate bolted on both sides. Bolting won't work but sure there is some way to modify the method used. Thermal puddy is the important part for sure.

[@tony359]

@@frizzlefry1921 I agree. I did (attempted) a reflow yesterday and tried the thermocouple again. I really don't feel it can ever work. It gets the hot air from the nozzle and it reads the air temp rather than the board temp. I can't see how that can be of any use TBH. I have some thermal glue - but that will cement on the board. And thermal paste will melt under high temps I guess. Still, I would need something to shield the hot air, I honestly feel it's impossible. But I'm open to ideas of course!

[@stibis5713]

I broke at least 4 GPU as learning material and those numbers doesn't matter.... you can only trust your thermocouple and I'm using my first hot air from 15yrs ago(analog) and still very capable and reliable... Your large nozzle is good but you just pumping so much air that is why the heat is not spread properly... It's like a jet engine focused on one area to get more power....

[@artursmihelsons415]

Suggestion: preheat the preheater to 60-70 degrees and only then put board on it.. 😉 Great measurement and experimentation video! 👍

[@tony359]

Thanks for the idea - I’ve been thinking about that, should cut the required time a bit indeed. 🙂

[@ted-b]

That was interesting!

[@tony359]

Thanks Ted, appreciated! I hope to come up with something more interesting in the next video on this subject!

[@balasubramaniant2030]

👍

[@yavuzlee1]

good job sir, mainboard kebab

[@tony359]

with sauce :)

[@MitchellCooper-lv6qn]

Um um um um. Um um, um um um

[@xidxip]

Well... gentleman... After more than... eleven years, I finally found someone with a future in the soldering process, selective / BGA rework process understanding on this KZbin jungle bullshit!!!! I'll keep my eyes on you 😜 And no, you don't have a "decent" preheater, and no, you don't have any "top heater", in fact, you'll have a weird combination for a supercharged... "popcorn machine". 😃 What is amazing is the fact that here on your channel I hear for the first time the words "science", "scientifically" and so on. That fact, that approaches will let you on the right path to understanding the rework process, in fact, to understand the soldering process in general, the selective / BGA soldering in particular. For the moment, I have no time to see the entire video but, I promise that I will watch them entirely. This video (your experiments from more or less... "scientific" points of view), remember me about my research... experiments... my frustrations eleven years ago... When I start my own research to buy a real professional BGA Rework Station. I don't find it. Let me recommend you some... Links... kzbin.info/www/bejne/b6vVapaqo5pjZ68 - already I have that... in Beta V2.0 stage. 😜 bga-rework-stations.com - here you will have all explications/arguments for all your frustrations... bga-rework-station.com - here, you will have all the explications/arguments on how you can think in a scientific/technical way. Please excuse my English language, is not my native language. Keep it on the same path, be open mind and never forgot, that electronics is science, and technology is not pseudo-science, pseudo-technology. Best regards, Dan.

[@tony359]

Thanks Dan for your kind words. Yes, my equipment is indeed a large popcorn machine! :) This video is pretty old and I've researched a bit meanwhile. I'll come up with "part 2" at some point but one thing is pretty obvious: this is just a pale approximation of a proper reflow. Proper BGA rework is light-years away from what we can do - even with so-called "proper BGA machines" which are just... even larger popcorn machines! Thanks for the links. I'll take a look!