Shifter: Thoughts on Film Photography, Episode 001

[@doktorhulk]

my art school teacher used to say: without all those people using film, making it a profitable industry, there would be no film for us. so let's hope many many people keep that industry alive. long live the hype, long live film.

[@JeffWalshPhotography]

"Nobody knows anything" the truest statement on KZbin.

[@DANIELMILNOR505]

Me especially.....

[@dennismcruz]

@@DANIELMILNOR505 I feel like Uncle Dano knows a few things.

[@metocvideo]

Bravo! I spent my whole life working as a product photographer and pro photolab printer/processor. I am now 70, and listening to you made me smile. You hit the nail on the head with your discussion, so much ill informed opinions in photography today, so much nonsense. I now retired and have a nice big studio and darkroom, and my pleasure in life is teaching people to develop and print, from beginner to expert, and by expert I mean having the experience to understand how to get the most out of a negative. I have some younger clients who still have me do their portfolio prints, which is gratifying. Film is still relevant in modern photography, and many people shoot film and digitise for editing, which works well and gives a good result. We were shooting 10x8 ektachrome for high end automotive shoots way into the digital era because it made the cars look more desirable. I have subscribed, and look forward to viewing more of your work.

[@DANIELMILNOR505]

Wow, 8x10 auto. Legendary. I used to love to talk to the auto art directors who would go on location all over the world. Talking about sunrise in Morocco vs Spain, etc. Teaching is a gift. Glad to hear.

[@ericriley5126]

This is exactly what I needed to hear. I've been caught in this Film-KZbin-fueled rush to buy tons of different film cameras mostly motivated by mediocre photographers who happen to have high subscribers. But lately I've been sticking to one body and one lens it's allowed me to focus on what this is all supposed to be about, the images.

[@DANIELMILNOR505]

Once you start making solid imagery and then printing those images the YT conversation will fade. My guess anyway.

[@ronessexphotography5430]

Holy cow. You've just convinced me to pull my film camera off the dusty shelf. I appreciate the film processing suggestions.

[@bronzepodcast]

Just subscribed to your channel because of the blunt way you spoke about this. I am not a photographer, not even amateur level. I am just a family guy interested in learning about photography with no filters or ideology.

[@caleidoo]

What a genius move of KZbin to drop me this video after I watched the trillionth video about a youtuber with a beard talking about his new "these ones are getting harder to find" rare medium format camera and showing one of the most mediocre images ever. I was thinking like "Am I the only asshole in the room to see that KZbin is full of this clones of hipsters sitting at their clean minimalistic 'Ow I better put that book in the background so they see" desk with the EXACT same lightning on their face and background, talking about cameras and not showing any above average images that would not even upstage your usual iPhone photo or even images at all?" Yes, I needed to get that of my chest. I can breath again. Thanks to you.

[@DANIELMILNOR505]

Well, they are catering to an audience and building following. That is what they know. The photography part takes too much time, typically, for anyone these days to really invest, especially those on YT. You simply can't produce good work a fast rate.

[@caleidoo]

@@DANIELMILNOR505 I totally get that. And I absorb the (limited) tech info I occasionally get out of them. But it makes me giggle inside. Followers praising their images through the roof. Or fellow vloggers dropping by for a quick "You scratched my back, now I'll scratch your back" disguised as a genuine comment. It's gets bloated, styled and pretend. Which made your video such a breath (or storm) of fresh air. Can't wait for episode 002. Don't hold back.

[@jharrelphoto]

So much knowledge in one video. I learned a lot of valuable information from this one video. Thank you so much!

[@gd3945]

Wow! This is amazing information! Finally, a authentic, honest and transparent voice on Photography. A no B.S. guy. How refreshing. We've had our differences, but I have a tremendous amount of respect for Daniel.

[@GaetanCormier]

Hope to see lot's more of Thoughts on Film Photography, totally love this, you are a great speaker! Cheers!

[@philipu150]

8 minutes plus in -- I love it. I'll subscribe. Looking forward to following. Best wishes.

[@DANIELMILNOR505]

Ha, thank you. Good old film.

[@alanfricker]

Dainel. Loved your presentation. I can tell your heart is in it. The best 35 minutes I have spent on KZbin in a long time. Thank you.

[@photom3]

I really enjoy these. I can’t stick with most people on KZbin more than about 5 minutes. I’ll take the long form ramble any day

[@ronwolfept]

amen

[@Guitar_Sounds]

Amazing thanks for sharing

[@mynewcolour]

Absolute gold.

[@johanmatto]

I was just yesterday explaining to an older photographer I've had the fortune to assist and learn from, that I, as a kid (well, I'm 30) coming up with digital in this age, had interesting opportunities while I also missed out on some important things. I learned taking photos firing 2000 rounds on AV, then sifting through the photos in Lightroom to see if any of them turned out, celebrating myself when I found a decent photo. While that's a great way to develop a distinguishing eye for what looks good and what doesn't, it's not really image-making. I've felt happy to rediscover photography through film and learn a bunch of stuff that I wasn't really learning with digital. It's like you say, the charm is in the limitation. Thanks for a really entertaining and informative video, looking forward to more.

[@DANIELMILNOR505]

I did the same with digital. When it arrived it came with overshooting at epic levels. Good photographers have tappered off to some degree but you still see people coming back with 10,000's of images and think "why?"

[@frederic_viennot]

THANK YOU !!!!!!!!

[@TracyLeBlanc]

I’m so glad a stumbled on this video. I’m now a subscriber. Please keep making content about film and film photography because it’s finally nice to listen and learn from someone who has actual experience and knowledge from years in the industry. Thank you!

[@DANIELMILNOR505]

More on the way. Not sure when but it's coming.

[@adamcook6396]

@@DANIELMILNOR505 Please sir, more film content... More info about box speed vs real speed would be great. I'm doing my own research though.

[@john_murch]

Hey Daniel, thanks for all of this, so much valuable information. I plan to watch this again many times!

[@Thomasbrownphoto]

I got alot out of this one Dan! Love the long rants.. packed with tips and truths! I've been shooting nothing but film for 2 yrs and sold my digital gear off. It was the best creative choice I have made for the work I like to make. I I especially found the 'box speed' info interesting. Look forward to the next one.

[@DANIELMILNOR505]

Hey Thomas, I would sell my digital but still using it all the time for work and mine is probably not worth much anymore...

[@JamesBowman3]

I felt like I was back in 1991 listening to my photography mentor. This is a refreshing video to find in the KZbin photography ecosphere. Please keep making this kind of video!

[@DANIELMILNOR505]

That was a good year....

[@adamcook6396]

@@DANIELMILNOR505 I was 14 that year...anyways, yes, more film content please!

[@JeffBaertsch]

Thanks! This was probably the most helpful film video I've encountered. I got into photography in high school and college, switched to film after dropping out of journalism school because I wasn't using my DSLR as much, and then picked the hobby back up 8 years later after losing bike racing as a hobby. It's been a weird world to get back into as film got back into style unbeknownst to me. There's definitely a lot of videos I've encountered on here that seem focused on chasing Instagram likes.

[@DANIELMILNOR505]

IG and the rest of social are nothing but pure poison in my mind. Designed to addict, designed to exploit human vulnerability, designed to destroy free will, designed to manipulate and yet pretty much every single photographer I know makes excuse after excuse for why they continue to use the platforms. WE are the problem. Yet another reason why I have little interest in the photography world.

[@The_Mister]

I feel like I get so much more from Dan’s interviews and films than I do from other photography channels that are so hyper-focused on gear and gear reviews. Gear reviews have their place but you can only watch so many reviews of a $5,000 camera you don’t ever plan to buy. None of that stuff inspires action. They’re done by KZbin vloggers for other KZbin vloggers. It’s these videos that inspire me to get moving on my projects, take them seriously, and go shoot another roll.

[@DANIELMILNOR505]

Thanks B. I suck at gear reviews and my two fav cams are fifty years old. Not great for getting subscriptions I'm sure.

[@mrca2004]

Because Dan is a PHOTOGRAPHER, not a gear collector.

[@kieranpicken3696]

I really enjoyed hearing your perspective, thanks. It's really interesting to hear from someone with your experience in the industry, especially as someone who went through the huge changes of the last couple of decades. Fwiw I don't think there's anything to be ashamed in being an amateur. I don't think that's what you meant, I am just saying that a lot of us hobbyists know full well that is what we are and are fine with it. I would even go so far as to say that being a hobbyist doesn't mean you can't produce work that matters, it's just that our audience is going to be tiny! I also wouldn't be too down on KZbinrs who don't know all the details of film. If you grew up photographically in the age of digital and didn't have the funds to study photography at uni; or you're making KZbin videos about your hobby, there's no reason you would know everything. I grew up in the film era but didn't get serious about photography until a few years ago,so everything - film and digital - is a huge learning curve for me. But I also love my day job and have no desire to chuck it all in to work client briefs as a pro. Hipster is such a vague term that I don't know if the people I follow on KZbin are the same people you refer to, but one of the lovely things about photography is how accessible it is, and therefore the variety of people who can talk about it on KZbin. For example, box speed. I have heard old hands on Photrio and FADU say similar things to you about it, but also plenty of people who just use box speed. If you are buying a film that says ISO 400 on it, are you going to take a gamble that one of the dozens of disagreeing people on fora are right, or trust the company who engineered it? I suppose what I am getting at is that people have all sorts of rational reasons for different approaches. That got very rambly, thanks for reading all the way to the end!

[@DANIELMILNOR505]

I think being an amateur is the best way. I really do. Have felt this way for over a decade.

[@BryanBirks]

Making me rethink my channel with that little talk. Haha refreshing take on the KZbin world. I’m guilty of it for sure and I’m fresh enough where I can fix my ways before I’m lost forever. Looking forward to the next one of these!

[@fotochuck]

Film has a heel and a toe, what's not to like? I've shot a lot of P3200, and I'm glad they brought it back. I'd also like to see BW400CN revived. My time is to valuable to do scut work, paying lab costs and hiring a pro retoucher, makes economic sense. It's interesting to find out that film is still acceptable to agencys today-good to know info. It always amazes me that people don't do tests. They are easy to do, and don't cost much. After testing you know what YOUR personal ISO, customized to the way YOU work. Unfortunately most people want to be spoon fed.

[@DANIELMILNOR505]

Testing is SO critical whether it be film or making books. Nothing in the art world comes on the first pass, everything is via revision. 400CN! Wow. I'd forgotten about that.

[@user-oc6sj8yk4g]

Saw this back in late 90’s while I was using 810 Polaroid and 120 b&w & positive stock. Have now moved to digital and like the poster mentioned use it as I have any camera - making sure it’s in the can .. with my past film photography it was not always 100% guaranteed to have the image but as long as the kit was in working order the photograph was there after processing. Now digital allows for checking if you’re unsure but I don’t feel comfortable with the idea of is it there is it not. Just a way of thinking over a very long time in a varied career and life. Digital or film or wet plates whichever you feel is suitable for your practice, art or hobby.

[@DANIELMILNOR505]

Yes, it's all good and worthy and valid and entertaining.

[@ChrisWhittenMusic]

Great video !!!

[@StuartHerrington]

Great Video as always Dan. I bought my first film camera 8 years ago to go with some Canon FD lenses I was using on mirrorless at the time. Figured why not have the option as I have the lenses? Messed up my first roll as I had no real knowledge. Got a second roll successfully shot, but put film aside for a while. Then after learning more on digital, I went back to try film about 5 years ago as an experiment, had a bit of fun but only shot a couple of rolls here and there. When I realized how easy it was, now that I knew more about exposure and photography, I've been shooting film exclusively in my own time for the last 3 and a half years. I've now shot about 110 rolls of film in many formats with a handful of cameras. I've narrowed down my preferred films to Ilford Delta and Kodak Ultramax and I mostly shoot just one camera and one lens (Canon P Rangefinder and a 35mm lens) on a daily basis. And I've been developing black and white for 2 years now. I've learnt a hell of a lot from my mistakes, but I'm still learning and having fun. Hopefully will put together a blurb zine soon. Looking forward to your next video!

[@DANIELMILNOR505]

Way to go. I would use WAY more film if I was spending my time working on my own projects but have very little time for that these days. And logistics are challenging. Zine is a good move.

[@dialac1]

I’m so glad I found your channel. This is so underrated

[@stefanhansen5882]

This is pure inspiration. Thanks! I am an old man (well, 45) getting into photography. Just bought myself a Fujifilm X-T4, not to have any gear excused. If my photos are poor, I cannot blame the gear, only myself. I will try to implement your ideas to digital, e.g. sticking to one film simulation at a specific ISO. I think that is bound to be a wise limitation. Keep rocking!

[@alvareo92]

It goes against what the photo forums and reviewers say, but you’ll get the best colours, tonality and noise if you use the lowest possible ISO and try to get the exposure right in camera (as much as the highlight latitude allows you to)

[@edovdj8687]

Love it! What a crazy ride it's been for the Foto world. You need to make a whole clip on crazy stories alone! Entitled "It just doesn't matter"...

[@H2A2I00]

As a millennial who got roped into film with the hipster/nostalgic youtubers, this was a fascinating listen and I can't wait to hear more from a legitimate professional. I myself have really paired down my fascination on gear and am currently committed to exclusively shooting with the 40mm lens I have on my Leica M4-2. Improvement is coming slowly but I believe my ability to compose an image will better for it in the long run

[@DANIELMILNOR505]

Little gear is a relief. Never have to think about it. Just shoot, edit, sequence and print.

[@c.augustin]

Most (or all) of the corrections for digital shots you've mentioned are part of what ACR/Lightroom and C1 do nowadays, so it should no longer be a problem. Bur very interesting story, and it shows how much know-how was actually present in professional film processing labs (and luckily still is), that people weren't aware of "back then".

[@DANIELMILNOR505]

All the analog masters, labs, retouchers, etc. are the ones who are the best at digital. Go figure.

[@erinmontoya1128]

Love hearing from photographers who know what they're talking about. Subscription earned 👌

[@roxspeedg]

I thoroughly loved this! You broke down the film v. digital debate to the true facts, with a unique and informed perspective as a pro in the industry for years. As an amateur/enthusiast photographer, I have been shooting film 90% of the time for the past few years, because 1) I love the end result (mostly a bnw shooter), and 2) I thoroughly enjoy the process. I love using all manual film cameras that I've bought off eBay for less than $100 that are often smaller, lighter, and easier to use compared to their digital counterpart, not to mention extremely less expensive. Taking my time, manually adjusting the dials to get a "right," or wrong exposure is so much more rewarding then auto everything because I feel like I'm actually making something, even if it comes out like trash. I took the time to learn the craft, something I will keep learning my entire life. Likewise, self-developing my negatives truly makes me feel like I'm contributing to the whole process from start to finish. I'm not a pro, I don't have clients to serve so I have no concerns about "sharpness" or the perceived costs of film, it's purely for my own joy. As someone in their early 30s, while I grew up with film end product, I didn't appreciate film cameras in their day, other than polaroids, in a sense I'm "revisiting" film, and I love it.

[@DANIELMILNOR505]

If you are happy and making pictures then that is what matters. Film and digital are both great but require different skills and different lifestyles.

[@Matthaeus84]

Just fantastic, thank you very much sir! Greatings from Cologne, best of luck to you.

[@peter2712]

Got into photography a few years ago, Bought a digital camera ,then the stumbling block, invest my time in learning photography or spend it learning another software package. Ended up with a Nikon F2 some chemistry and a scanner. Learned photography basics first. I take the photo, I process the photo and I view the photo if someone else happens to see it and like it all the better.

[@DANIELMILNOR505]

That's a good move. A great way to learn.

[@mucnguyen2045]

Finally someone with real experience to learn from.

[@prajeethk4348]

Great speech, I really appreciate your statements. I am a true film user. Looking forward to such open thoughts...

[@batworker]

Great video, I think perhaps one of your best yet. 👍😺✅

[@ccoppola82]

So funny. I shot film in high school and my grandfather was a professional and also professional camera technician. He had a drawer full of lenses that always looked like little gems. I wasn’t allowed to touch them. Lol. I quit photography because I didn’t want to learn to process digital files. Got back into it, digital is fine...but when I had my son I decided to shoot a LOT of film. Someday I will give him an album of tangible, archival negatives of his entire life. Plus, after building a darkroom...there is nothing more magical than watching a silver gelatin print form out of nothing. I still have digital and use it, but I carry my M6 + 50 Cron pretty much every day.

[@DANIELMILNOR505]

Christopher, when my dad died we found a Russian made plastic camera in the console of his 4x4. Nobody knew he had it. God knows what we was doing with it. Film is a lot of fun and looks unlike anything else.

[@ccoppola82]

Daniel Milnor ive been watching some of your project videos and they have hit at the perfect time for me. I’ve been thinking about a general idea I wanted to do for a couple of years but needed to really solidify the concept. I think I’ve got that down now and will begin researching. Thanks so much for doing the videos. It’s a really nice guide. I’ll be watching and rewatching as I do this.

[@TheWaterboarders]

Excellent rant. I'm not a photographer, but I repaired cameras for 25 years and met a lot of camera owners across the spectrum. The conclusion I came to was that amateur photographers cared mostly about the equipment, while the pro photographer cared mostly about the image. All that mattered was the image. And selling it, presumably.

[@DANIELMILNOR505]

My experience too. Same for truck guys, fishing guys, etc. Gear heads vs people who catch fish.

[@Maxfahrer]

When I was in school, we learned to develop and print film. That was in the 90s and early 2000s. Was a lot of fun.

[@gui4j]

thanks Dan, been waiting to hear your talk on this for a while ....great knowledge and thoughts it was fascinating to me .to listen you .. ... some food thought for sure ...

[@AndySnap]

One of the best nostalgia trips I'll go on this year... Twenty years since I shot film daily (on a newspaper), and now Mr Milnor tells me why Tmax3200 was rubbish shooting dimly lit football night games in Northern England. I believed the box...& got thin negs. Y'see, always learning. Excellent video Mr M.

[@DANIELMILNOR505]

That film is magic but it's nowhere near a real 3200. Getting it right can be tricky because every lab seemed to have a different strategy.

[@alvareo92]

Daniel Milnor even Kodak themselves in their data sheet state it’s 800-1000 ISO speed

[@davyboyo]

So good! All interesting and definitely refreshing. I'll be following you along for sure. 😊

[@nikki8009]

Thanks Daniel! From a digital photographer that transitioned into film 2 years ago then back to digital due to quarantine and the inability to access labs in my area, I gotta say that learning the ropes of film has totally changed my digital process and workflow. Regardless of the medium, photography is amazing and I love both (though my Bessa R is glaring at me right now).

[@DANIELMILNOR505]

I think a lot of the film experts transitioned to digital really well. Not all but many. There was a multi-year period of wild overshooting, even the celebration of that overshooting. It was odd but has since tapered off.

[@williamhickstein685]

I shot film until 2001. I shot for the press and the Illinois House of Representatives.Then, I put down my cameras, until 2009, when I bought a point n shoot digital. @016 bought my first DSLR, and now shooting a Nikon D610 Full frame.

[@DANIELMILNOR505]

Takeaway, you are still making pictures.

[@StreetGrain]

You are a breath of fresh air in this industry.

[@Barzyz01]

ok, you win, I subscribed. Excellent points.

[@AnthonyTeasdale]

Just shot my first ever roll of film. Sent it off for developing and scanning. Exciting to see what comes back.

[@DANIELMILNOR505]

Amazing. Fingers crossed for you.

[@adamcook6396]

Three years later, how'd it go?

[@AnthonyTeasdale]

@@adamcook6396 Wow, this was 3 years ago! Really enjoyed the photos I took. But my camera gave big issues with my next two rolls and since I have not done anything since. A good reminder though. Either look to service my camera or check again for other options.

[@divineoptiks6157]

I’m new to photography been a about a year now. Bought a sony a6000 then got hooked. So down the rabbit hole of photography ordering books buying every documentary i could get my hands on. Even pulled up old courses and class lessons i could find on google. With that being said i bought 3 35mm film cameras just got a rangefinder. I bought them for learning experience in the sense you got to know your roots. I do enjoy shooting the film portra 400 for me . But lol the hipster film culture is to insane for me all them flannels and beanies and deep Confucius quotes..love the video subbed , it will be good ganing some knowledge from you .

[@DANIELMILNOR505]

No Confucius quotes from me. And it's too hot for a beanie. And I have no tattoos and no drone so no chance I'm gonna fit in that crowd. I do have a van however...

[@LEVLHED]

@@DANIELMILNOR505 re: Tattoos - I'm playing the long game and waiting for not having a single tattoo to be the "edgy" trend.

[@d.idowuolutosin4250]

Dan, I've been following your channel for a while but for whatever reason, this video passed me by but showed up at the right time. Like you, I shoot Fujifilm digitally and film from time-to-time for personal artistic work. I've been having this conversation, not to the detail you did in this video, with some fellow photographers who started with digital, got interested in film but know nothing about film other than what they've learned on KZbin. I sent this video to all of them today. Thanks for your insight and the "films" you load on KZbin sir.

[@DANIELMILNOR505]

Poor guys. I hope it does them good. Film and digital are lifestyles in my mind. I like both, like you.

[@d.idowuolutosin4250]

@@DANIELMILNOR505 agreed!

[@ejacks3]

You found your way into my KZbin feed and I’m glad you did. Glad to hear someone dropping some true wisdom about film photography. You have a new subscriber. ☮️✌🏾

[@DANIELMILNOR505]

Thanks Eric. Just rambling on...as I tend to do.

[@bnrynlds]

Thanks Dan, that's a great piece.

[@JohnSchellphoto]

Totally with you here in regard to the how vs why. My biggest gripe with the KZbin and Instagram photographer community pushing their 'zines is it's always because of the 'how' (film) and almost never the 'why' (artist's intent, artist's purpose, etc). Thanks for putting it out there.

[@DANIELMILNOR505]

Well, I they are catering to a crowd. Whatever the crowd eats they will serve. Same for all social. It's about popularity. And once you make the deal you have to roll with what the masses want. It's just a boring conversation if you are possessed by the final product.

[@JasonMayers]

Straight forward! Love or hate 2020, but so much is being revealed. Great video, subscribed!

[@Notare2222]

High school first roll I developed in black and white and was done. I knew what held my passion from that day forward

[@DANIELMILNOR505]

That seems to be a common affliction. Same for me.

[@nolansnook1268]

The pandemic has made me slow down and be present. Shooting film again does the same for me. I am starting to look deeply and see again. Your thoughts are appreciated. Stay safe.

[@joseerazevedo]

I needed to hear that! I shot all those films you mentioned in the 80s and 90s. After that I focused on life as an art director. Now I'm returning to my passion, still have many of those in the freezer, including Panatomic-X (my BW passion). It was so nice to hear you, brought SO MANY good memories back, man! Thanks!! Stimulating! I'm having a hard time finding the right things to rebuild my darkroom, but things are on the right track, My F2 and F3 are ready. You've no idea how much it was stimulating to hear this. My best!!

[@DANIELMILNOR505]

Just left you a comment but it didn't go through for some reason....hmm. Careers were made on Panatomic X. Also amazing were the papers available which all had heavy metals so it was an environmental tradeoff. Glad you found something worthy.

[@joseerazevedo]

@@DANIELMILNOR505 sure! That was incredible. A 32 ASA film that had grain and tones not competing with each other. How I loved it. Hope the ones on the freezer do well when I decide to use them. I'm from Brazil, darkroom materials are hard to find but I'm working on rebuilding my home lab with quality materials. I'm impressed by how many things vanished! Well, we have to deal with whaat we have and do our best to take the most of it. I've the same vision on many points. I see people today don't know what they're doing. They don't undestand liight, they shoot 1000 pictures on a day and believe that's photography. In my opinion that's editing, no photography. I'm an Art Director, I've heard many times "photographers" say "later we fix that on Photoshop" - whatever it is, from bokeh to background colors, composition, focus, you name it. ABSURD! As you said it's much easier to take three shots right. But you have to KNOW what you're doing. And many know the equipment, the techniques, but lack the vision. I follow thw Ansel Adams school: visualiza what you want and work to get to it. Daniel, pleased to meet you! I've already subscribed to your channel. I'll watch you videos and sometimes hope to have the pleasure to exchange ideas, vision, concepts with you again, ok? My best!

[@alvareo92]

Daniel Milnor a note: Fuji RDP is still relatively widely available, in its third revision, known as Provia 100F. It’s pushing abilities are, I assume, even better now with the technological advancements. I’ve pushed it two stops and indeed it looks amazing, clean shadows with no shifts

[@phillnavin1212]

One of your most interesting video. Been shooting film for about three years, and you are right you mentioned stuff no-one mentions. Please do more film videos, on anything, I don’t care.

[@DANIELMILNOR505]

On the way...

[@HerbTheriault]

Amateur is not always lesser than. I love shooting film. Processing it in alternative chemistry, seeing the results, and talking about them with other people who do the same. I do not do this for a living (nor do I aspire to), therefore, by definition, am an amateur.

[@gui4j]

Definition of amateur is “for the love of it “!!! :) I’m with you ..

[@DANIELMILNOR505]

I think amateur is the best way now. I've thought this for over a decade as the actual industry got slammed from all directions. Make good work, enjoy the process.

[@vproven]

So well spoken. I could listen to you go on and on all day long. Wait, I just did. 😏 Love you content and passion. You are the man.

[@DANIELMILNOR505]

I've been known to ramble.

[@bepitan]

limitation breeds creativity..

[@stefanol9272]

Please more thoughts about film photography. Always embrace learning

[@elifan2523]

On fire 🔥 Solid points and great insights

[@mh-ic6zj]

as a younger film photographer who cannot personally relate to a lot of the history/transition youre talking about -- thank you. I really needed to hear this and it has definitely aided in my thought process and overall creative workflow

[@DANIELMILNOR505]

Matthew, you might find some of it useful. Always fun to know odd things about this world.

[@theblackandwhitefilmproject]

I was talking to a landscape photographer selling his over saturated colour prints at a market. I told him I shot black and white film. He said ' so you use your phone??' Not phone -FILM!!! He had no idea what I was taking about....

[@DANIELMILNOR505]

Ya, it takes all kinds to create this photo world of ours. If I had a dollar for every time another photographer or industry person tried to tell me what I had to shoot...with film, keep it up!

[@Caracalaba]

That transition era is so interesting, love to heard your story

[@pembridgehouse]

The best I took away from this is "It just doesn't matter". I am keen on film and digital having started photography in 1975 reasonably seriously. All the things you say about film are true but I am just happy to see people embracing photography whether it's film,digital, iphone,pinhole,holga,polaroid etc.. In reality the best negatives are arguably the old glass plate ones.The detail in those pics is amazing.That would slow us down a bit.Almost to meditation speed.Thanks for creating content. It does stimulate thinking.

[@DANIELMILNOR505]

Geoff Thompson I’m about to do something in regard to glass plates

[@pembridgehouse]

@@DANIELMILNOR505 thanks Daniel. I particularly am a big fan of Darius and Tabitha Kinsey. I have a big coffee table book of their work which is amazing.I think I will do a book review on it soon.The technology they used was mainly glass plates with massive cameras and tripods.

[@stacker62]

Great video, Daniel! Everything you just said, I've been saying (sometimes ranting) to other photographers since 1999!! I almost forgot about good old EPP, we went through thousands of rolls of that stuff at the studio where I worked back in the 90's.

[@DANIELMILNOR505]

It was SO odd that THE film companies tried to emulate more than any other was EPP. Technically, there was nothing good about that film. Wasn't a true 100. Didn't have fine grain. Didn't have high saturation. Could not be pushed. But the combo of ingredients was unique.

[@Topsyrm]

So much sense in all that Dan, I started when there was only film and have been through digital and come back to film but will use either depending on what I am shooting and why. Great post.

[@DANIELMILNOR505]

Ya, it's a decision made at the front end of a project and then forgotten about.

[@IainHC1]

I could listen to you allllllll week!!!!

[@0f0t0graph]

More!

[@magnusa.5599]

could‘ve listened for another 3 hrs. awesome.

[@heresiarh]

You need to publish a 1000-page book on film photography. I know I'd pay big money for it. Print FOREVER!

[@DANIELMILNOR505]

Is that really enough pages?

[@heresiarh]

@@DANIELMILNOR505 That can be Book 1: The Intro.

[@eminusipi]

I'm a rank amateur but I started over 40 years ago in high school as a hobby developing film with sloppy results. I had an excellent teacher in college who taught me how to make negatives of proper exposure, contrast and development and how to make a fine print. A lot of those materials have gone away. It was satisfying to make an image start to finish.

[@DANIELMILNOR505]

There is nothing quite like it. Slow, yes. Laborious, yes. Worth it? yes.

[@olliebuv]

Great video with insight, but it seems like a dig at amatuer photographers who are excited by gear/processes/community and educating themselves. As somebody who has transitioned back and forth between film and digital over the past few years (and i'm no pro btw) I've seen the flaws among both processes. Doing what makes you happy is the most important thing to consider here. If you enjoy walking around with an old camera and love the process of developing and scanning film then do it. If you love hi-tech gear with megapixels upon megapixels and flexible editing that's great also. And it's fine to talk about it too, why not? We're all here because we love photography, and sometimes that's the how and not just the what or the why.

[@DANIELMILNOR505]

I don't care what they do. This gear geekiness started long ago. Nothing new. It's just a boring conversation if you are interested in the end result. And again, this film was not film vs digital, at all.

[@caleidoo]

I too feel like you missed the point of the video. And you're talking as if there is only one type you can use at once, not sure why you would imply that? Nothing is stopping you from using film and digital next to each other. If you're working with scans, they overlap even more. I just use what I feel like using or what is required for the assignment or client.

[@CristianGeelen]

I always dump all my rolls in a big plastic see through bag when I travel. From Myanmar to China they were happy to give me a hand check because customs loved seeing my cameras haha. The bag makes their live easier and a smile always helps too. Also keep on rambling, Daniel. Always love photography ramblings. :)

[@DANIELMILNOR505]

Same for me, most of the time. TSA is like "Hey, that's film, how great is that?" On the flipside you now see customs forms with "Do you have more than 12 rolls of film," and if so they try to nail you for importing or trying to sell. They also don't understand that most pros don't shoot film and the guy next to you in line with the iPhone who is streaming live and posting nonstop is the one most taking advantage.

[@CristianGeelen]

Lisa W I know the video you are talking about. But it’s the new CT scanners that you have to worry about. They make a 3D scan of the contents of your bag and are 100 times stronger. Kodak and Ilford released a new protocol for them. And besides. If your photograph earn you money you just don’t want to risk it. Even with the old ones.

[@DANIELMILNOR505]

@@lisaw150 Also, I've had TMZ base fog after two scans. I shot that film for ten years and traveled with it extensively. scanners are hard to predict.

[@guyonabike2415]

Enjoyed the video. I was the typical general professional photographer in the film era. To be honest I would have loved the immediacy of a digital camera in those days. Polaroids were used on big shoots but it wasn't accurate enough. Clients weren't interested in equipment or type of film used. I made a good living but stepped away as digital took over. I'm pretty sure that if Cartier Bresson was alive today he would be wielding a smartphone.

[@DANIELMILNOR505]

Yep, the good ones don't draw lines. They keep an open mind and they test any and all. Then they use what gives them the result they are after.

[@guyonabike2415]

@@DANIELMILNOR505 i take the point about how post editing can consume your time. I could shoot a couple of weddings over a weekend. Drop the 120mm films in a lab on Monday morning and pick complete prints up on Friday. Leaving me with plenty of time for Portrait or corporate work. Now photographers take hundreds of shots and spend a week in front of a PC. Wedding shooters are there all day and most of the night. I could shoot a big wedding in 3 hours. In that respect digital isn't an improvement. However, stick a digital on manual and treat it like a film camera and therefore minimal or no post processing. I think its an improvement over film in many ways. A roll of film plus lab processing and your looking at about £20 here. A mint used 24mb digi SLR will set you back about £400. Equals 20 rolls of film. Film has to be a love thing.

[@Bastian7737]

Holy shit Daniel! Can i spam this video everywhere? So true! Nice words. Keep going on with this topics, we need it!

[@alexgweiser]

This is EXACTLY what photographers under 37 need to hear. Cheers, Milnor!

[@DANIELMILNOR505]

Didn't all those famous people die at 37? No, wait, that was 27. Dude, you are free and clear!

[@alexgweiser]

@@DANIELMILNOR505 Hah, I'm 32! Old enough to shoot film on vacations as a kid, young enough to rediscover it as an adult. I know a lot of people obsessing over gear & fetishizing film without a real project in mind.

[@ilperfezionista]

I absolutely loved what you just said. I just started developing film at home simply because I love the fact that you can really touch the images. I love to develop and love to go shopping for films. The printing is going to be the next step. You know what is the most boring and less enjoyable part to me is? The scanning process. I lost almost completely any interest on the digital side of the process. I almost became allergic to the computer. I love the feeling that images (which is the document of my life, being just an amateur passionate about photography) really take space around me and not only in my HD. Long life to film photography! :-)

[@DANIELMILNOR505]

I spend my entire life in front of a screen now, for the most part. I too can't handle the scan times and it's also difficult to get a good scanner now.

[@gui4j]

Ditto . It seems if many people could have a dark room they would . The computer side is zzzzzzzzz...

[@MrSpiff9]

Thank you Daniel, you hit the nail on the head! Great memories, too. Do you remember a small bottle product known as "Push 8000"? We used to add that to Microdol X 1:4, chemistry around 100f, and processed for 32 minutes for our 35mm Tri-X or HP-5 when i was a freelancer with the Miami Herald back in the late 1970's. Needed to do this when shooting professional football or soccer at the night games! I vaguely remember you showing the digital Kodak cameras to some shooters in Denver back when I was with Reed Photo Imaging, but most of my dealings were with Tom Hissong, our sales guy from Kodak. I've often said we had shot ourselves in the foot by going digital, as we could no longer drop off the film and grab a cup of coffee or lunch, and then come back check the clip tests to see if we needed a little more "oomph". Oh, and I still remember all of my notch codes... That being said, it almost feels like cheating when I grab one of my Olympus digital cameras (and this goes with just about any modern digital camera) and just have fun in composing & shooting. All the best, sir!

[@DANIELMILNOR505]

Holy crap. I've never heard of that but when you mention high school football all I can think about is the paper having a 300mm F/2 and TMZ for JUST his purpose. It was the only time anyone used that lens. Olympus RIP. What a bummer. The Microdol reference....so good.

[@markusandersen1880]

Man can I say as an artist who studied fine arts from 2000 - 2004 ... I learnt the beautiful zen of processing BW (and colour) and the endless frustration of the darkroom (for me)... Now as an artist who has done global Shows and books I can only continue to create if I’m shooting film ... I need the organic nature of creativity (for me). I understand light with film , can pre vis the print with film , the organic nature links to my meditation and spiritual practice... Your a good soul Daniel (love your glasses as well) , a real soul and one who understands that we are all just vibrational energy moving from one state to the next ! NB; Plus I Was the guy long ago who told you about ticks on northern beaches of Sydney, AU 🙏 Lyme disease is a dirty little secret that Australian doctor say..”it doesn’t exist here”... it does exist here in Australia

[@DANIELMILNOR505]

Markus, I REMEMBER you and I remember that conversation. And yes, the Oz medical world tries to downplay Lyme and has from the beginning. I've spoken to many folks who are suffering and apparently they made it difficult on doctors if they even admit Lyme patients. I too love film. But much of what i shoot today isn't really worthy of the time and logistics of film. I rarely ever get to work on projects these days, so mosts of what I shoot is filler or just valuable for my other work purposes.

[@markusandersen1880]

Daniel Milnor purchased Lab 257 a while back , terrifying stuff.

[@filipemarques78]

Great video. Great content. I think you are my favorite person on youtube. Keep this videos comming. Very inspiring :)

[@Bogaloo1232]

Very interesting video. It made me realize I’m most interested in the cameras, the mechanical/physical part of the film world than in the actual picture taking. I’ve been thinking about this for a long time, probably a couple of years, and you just made me realize that I’m right about it. The good thing about this is that it doesn’t really matter because it’s not my profession, I can goof around all I want with interesting medium/large format gear dating back to the XIX century, modding cameras and lenses, designing backs for instant formats and such, without caring a lot if I’m “doing it right” or if I’m being “professional” about the final result, my pictures. It’s a great thing to have film photography as a huge hobby rather than living off it. But I do see your point regarding “professional” photographers (they love to be called that way) whom don’t really know what they’re doing or why but they love to pretend they know everything.

[@DANIELMILNOR505]

You are not alone. There are considerably more people interested in the equipment than actual photography. Always been this way but even more so now with Internet. Data don't lie. Nothing wrong with it. I love cycling and think the bicycle is one of the most important inventions of all time.

[@doubleletter]

Thank you for being honest. I realized the same thing, it’s like a love for pretty, tactile machinery… but I am serious about my photos too. Realizing why I am interested in gear and accepting it allowed me to forgive myself for GAS and I began to treat my love for cameras separately from my love for photography, so that the former is not confused with the latter.

[@danlow3686]

Your best video EVER! Thank you!

[@ZachBie]

I am an armature, I’ll admit that. I am younger than you, and it was really interesting hearing your perspective on shooting film professionally. I shoot and develop and scan my film (sticking to B&W only), going through 100-250 rolls of film a year. I agree with shooting without a meter. It is so much more freeing. The only time when I want one is when shooting indoors. As far as only one film, I’ll compromise for two films. I shoot Delta 100 @200 whenever I can, but Delta 400 @400-1600 when I need more speed. I used those plastic boxes for 60 rolls of 35mm when traveling S.E. Asia for a month in January of this past year. Also less is almost always more. I have found that 3 prime lenses is the max, and two is often enough. Good video, keep it up. I clicked on the video without knowing who made it, and I was curious what some hipsters had to say about this topic.

[@DANIELMILNOR505]

I think I'm too old to be a hipster but a foreign trip with a bag of film and no assignment....that is pure heaven. I miss those days. Hopefully, once C19 resolves, we can get back to our voyages.

[@deane9050]

fantastic Daniel, i have been itching to get back to film photography, the only thing holding me back is the cost of processing.I may look into learning the basics of black and white processing as i mainly shoot black and white with my nikon d3 and 50mm lens, i think you put your arguments over very well and thank you ,very imformative, best wishes and be safe. Jeff

[@DANIELMILNOR505]

Processing film is SUPER cheap. And it's easy and fun and offers endless variety.

[@st.silver7926]

Really good talk. Still use and love film.

[@Being_Joe]

Not even 1/8 into this video and I just became a huge fan. Preach on.

[@DANIELMILNOR505]

Thanks Jose. Glad you like.

[@Being_Joe]

@@DANIELMILNOR505 No thank you. There are not many sources of actual photography knowledge on YT, it all gear reviews, affiliate links, and SquareSpace. Refreshing to hear someone just talk about the work.

[@trevorsowers]

I enjoyed this ramble! I gotta say I am totally in love with the E100 and it's what I am mostly shooting now.

[@DANIELMILNOR505]

As long as your shooting, you're shooting. Keep it up.

[@samamar4570]

This is great Dan, could listen to you for hours. Refreshing to hear someone who knows what they're talking about. Would be curious to hear you dive deeper into what needs to be done with film scans (I don't know what I'm doing so I just do what I do in the darkroom in Lightroom) & what role Photography school /BA/ BJ / ASSISTING plays these days!

[@DANIELMILNOR505]

Scanning is an art form. The good news is that labs do it well these days. The bad news, most good scanners are so outrageously priced they are prohibitive for most. And they are finicky, need to be calibrated/repaired fairly regularly. You can use your digi cam to copy negs. I'll try to work these questions into a new Q&A.

[@samamar4570]

@@DANIELMILNOR505 Thanks! It's more the software side of things I struggle with, for 35mm I use a Prime film xas which is as slow as it is good.

[@bagnome]

I think this video is more for professionals or people looking to be professionals than hobbyists. I'm just a hobbyist who does it for the love of the process more than anything and a good result is a bonus. And I tinker with different films in different cameras and different ways to make prints in my bathroom. In the same vein that makes me an amateur, so I can't really disagree with you. Interesting to listen to none the less.

[@DANIELMILNOR505]

Film is another language. I was only marginal in terms of my skill. I was a journalism type, so always on deadline which trumped anything to do with beauty.

[@davidrowan193]

Really interesting video. Keep them coming

[@DayaanABA]

this was glorious

[@rickdacosta9727]

I sold the film gear I had as a teenager in 2016 when I thought film was on its death bed. Went digital the same year with modest equipment. I discovered capabilities that digital offered that film just could not match but.... the rush just wasn't there. 2020 comes along and I discover film is making a resurgence. Bought a bunch of gear on Ebay and am setting up a darkroom to print B&W and color. The rush is back! Just buying gear I couldn't hope to afford in the 80's gives me a rush. God I love not fighting the camera anymore for focus!

[@DANIELMILNOR505]

All good. Have fun with it!

[@DarrenRowse]

Thanks for this video - really enjoyed watching it. I fell in love with photography as a teenager and it was never about the film or the lens or the camera. It was about the feeling of imagining how a scene/subject would look and trying to capture that... and that feeling of seeing if I had done it or not when I saw the resulting image. Somewhere along the way it became more about the stuff I was using to capture images (it was never 100% about that but there were periods where I definitely became distracted by it). In those times the joy I experienced from photography waned. Digital definitely hurt my love of photography. In fact it's been 20 years since I shot film and I so wish I'd seen this video before I made the switch. It's only in the last few months that I've swung back and have begun to reconnect with what I loved about it back as a teen. Running my first roll of Tri-X through my camera at the moment and immediately switched it to 250 :-)

[@DANIELMILNOR505]

It's like assembling a puzzle. Things that trigger our creativity or brain paths. It can come and go, like film, but whatever you need....keep looking for it.