Really nice video. I was trying to show my wife why we have the original consoles on our CRT TV instead of our modern one. She was like "Oh wow"
@OldsXCool6 жыл бұрын
Indeed. However the TV used in this video is pretty laggy. My computer monitor hooked to my gaming computer has almost no input lag. The difference then isn't as drastic as you see here. Plus with RetroArch's new advancements in fighting latency, RetroArch hooked up to a low latency monitor can now keep up with a real SNES hooked to a CRT. Check this video out to see. kzbin.info/www/bejne/qIWlopmbqt2jnK8
@CalaTec4 жыл бұрын
You can use an old PC with retroarch, an ATI video card with emudrivers or similar, connected via analog output to a CRT and it will work wonders. Try it, then tell me :)
@leonardomatheus18889 ай бұрын
@@CalaTecmodern lcd displays have lower latency than crts.
@Poco-tr9xw3 ай бұрын
The only reason they made flat screen tv . Is because the crt is heavy to ship .
@Libretro7 жыл бұрын
It would be especially interesting to compare the default SNES emulator on SNES Classic (Canoe) to RetroArch + a SNES core on SNES Classic itself. Hakchi makes it nearly effortless to test this out.
@OldsXCool7 жыл бұрын
Wow! The real LibRetro! I'm very honored to see you here. Your group does such amazing work especially on Android and I contribute to your Patreon. Thank you for tweeting this little video out. About putting Retro Arch on my SNES Classic I do not wish to hack it because I want to keep it 100% original. I would have probably hacked it long before now if I didn't already have Retro Arch on all three of my computers at home and my Galaxy S7.
@xChillWave6 жыл бұрын
LibRetro I tried to play a Mario World rom hack that required me to use retroarch and snes9x and the input lag was VERY noticeable (I had recently been playing another Mario world rom hack on canoe)
@xChillWave6 жыл бұрын
Chiriac Puiu for real? :o
@jomalova6 жыл бұрын
OldsXCool Robert Broglia is a better emulator creator RETROARCH is just a copy/compile of all these great emulators created and programmed by other people/programmers I dont understand why you admire them so much you just make yourself look and sound like a brown noser libreto for me is piracy at it best from other programmers
@OldsXCool6 жыл бұрын
jomalova Your statement contradicts itself. You say that RetroArch is piracy at its best like the stand alone emulators don't use ROMs just like the cores in Retroarch do. You apparently have no idea what Libretro has done for emulation because if you did, you wouldn't think I'm brown nosing. You should do some research before leaving a completely ignorant comment like you did.
@PlayStationPaul7 жыл бұрын
The only problem is we need to know if your thumb presses were perfectly synced too, which is fairly hard to tell from the footage, especially on KZbin. Maybe zooming in a bit and using a thin object to press the buttons in, so we can actually see them recede into the controller would alleviate that somewhat.
@OldsXCool7 жыл бұрын
First of all that extremely difficult to do seeing as I can only have one object in focus. I would need a second camera for that and then I'd have to line those two captures up perfectly. I intentionally hit the buttons hard and fast so I could judge a full press by seeing the controller start to jerk. At 120 frames you can see stuff like that. This footage was captured in 120 frames and then slowed down 100% so the final video looks kind of course. I slowed it down a ton so you could see a frame by frame. I'm not doubting that there is some margin of error in this video, but judging by the lead that Retro Arch has on the SNES Classic, I have no doubt that Retro Arch is still faster even if it's not as fast as it appears in this video. I actually tried to give the SNES Classic an advantage. I made sure that if the timing was off that it would be in the SNES Classic's favor. I honestly wanted the SNES Classic to win given that I spent 80 bucks on it. Even if the SNES Classic was in perfect lockstep with Retro Arch that would still be an excellent outcome.
@PlayStationPaul7 жыл бұрын
Yeah, slowed down the differences look huge but in real time they are barely perceptible. After all the games were designed to be played by humans not insects. The only game I've ever played where input lag was a real problem was BattleToads. Interesting experiment anyway thanks for sharing.
@OldsXCool7 жыл бұрын
That is very true. However if you're sensitive to input lag you can feel the difference, especially on Super Mario World. But just to clarify, the SNES Classic does not feel laggy or sluggish at all. When compared to Retro Arch, the SNES Classic just doesn't feel quite as snappy as Retro Arch but it still feels very good. Most people would not be able to feel the difference. I can feel the difference and I still don't mind playing the SNES Classic because it's still that good. On games like Star Fox you'll never feel the difference because those controls already are a little slushy. It's good to see you as always PlaystationPaul.
@PlayStationPaul7 жыл бұрын
You've actually got me more interested in Retro Arch for PC, the only emulator I've ever used on mine is Dolphin but the experience was a lot better than expected. I've dabbled with RA on Android but never got that deep into it. I'm presuming the input lag would vary from core to core though. This also makes me wonder how the SNES Classic emulation stacks up to Nintendo's Virtual Console emulation. I've heard there are some differences.
@OldsXCool7 жыл бұрын
I don't have many games for the Virtual Console on the Wii. I always thought Nintendo's pricing was way too high. I do have Super Punch Out on the Wii VC though. As for Retro Arch it's not perfect with every system it emulates, but it is amazing at Nintendo and Super Nintendo. The difference between the cores isn't so much a matter of input lag as it is your hardware's ability to run them and their feature sets. When it comes to NES it's pretty much impossible to beat Nestopia. I'd like to use the accuracy core on BSNES but my CPU isn't quite powerful enough to run that core at full speed. That's why I choose the balanced core. Retro Arch is also a good place for N64 emulation though it's extremely spotty and glitchy (nothing new for N64 emulation) as it adds a nice user friendly front end to Mupen64Plus which is a command line emulator only. Believe it or not, the best N64 emulator I've ever worked with is Mupen64Plus FZ on Android. Don't even try Retro Arch N64 emulation on Android. It's beyond sluggish. The magical thing about Retro Arch for PC is that even though Nestopia and BSNES or Higan are both stand alone emulators outside of Retro Arch, the input lag is significantly less inside Retro Arch than the stand alone emulators. I'm not sure how LibRetro has pulled this off, but it's still much better than stand alone emulators even running in windowed mode. Everything else Retro Arch adds on top of very low input latency is just a bonus like the easy to use front end and control configurations. For some reason Nintendo and Super Nintendo emulators specifically always have had a problem with too much input lag above all other consoles like Sega Genesis and Turbo Grafx16. I'm almost positive that Kega Fusion (Genesis) and Ootake (Turbo) are pretty much in lockstep with real hardware input wise. I have not tested that and I'm kind of afraid to because I use Fusion almost exclusively over my real Genesis because it plays just as good and looks a ton better due to the terrible video quality output of my model 1 Genesis. I even own Sega CD games and don't even have an actual Sega CD because I use Fusion for that too. Anyway just for NES and SNES emulation Retro Arch is worth the download.
@dariusvilla56802 жыл бұрын
What about against the many latest versions of the SNES9X, PocketSNES or the BSNES?
@ng8tvinfluence78 Жыл бұрын
Not sure if you’ll read this, but my suspicions that there was a delay has been confirmed. Thanks dude!
@OldsXCool Жыл бұрын
No problem. Considering the hardware the SNES Classic is running on the input latency is still pretty low and completely playable. When it comes to old games however, every frame counts.
@custardo7 жыл бұрын
It's unavoidable that both an emulation layer and a flat panel display are going to add some lag. However, as you said the Classic is more than acceptable, and the games on the snes are rarely the super twitchy kind anyway. It will be interesting to see how the Analogue Super NT as the first viable FGPA SNES implementation will fare here.
@OldsXCool7 жыл бұрын
Hopefully someone will step up to the plate and make that video on the Analogue Super NT because I'm sure not going to shell out the cash to buy one of those consoles given that I have dedicated the space to having a very large SD CRT so I can use real hardware. I'd be much better served buying a SNES flashcart with that money. I've actually thought about it actually, but Retro Arch is so damn good that it makes it hard to justify spending the money ;)
@custardo7 жыл бұрын
Hold my beer ;) Except I don't have an high speed camera, and no Super NT ...Yet
@OldsXCool7 жыл бұрын
custardo lol OK! Well most modern phones have a slow motion option. I just used my Galaxy S7 and then slowed down the footage by 100% in the editing software.
@briantucker53225 ай бұрын
Pulled out the SNES classic today and thought I was having a stroke. Then tried playing on the Mario Maker on the Switch and I was back to normal. Then I checked the SNES classic again and there must be a half a second lag on every input
@mtoad5 ай бұрын
Mario Maker on the Switch is laggy too. Compare it to real hardware and you'll have another stroke
@Lucas_Dixon Жыл бұрын
Can I fix the input log on the snes classic?
@shiningwizard327 Жыл бұрын
It’s crazy with 30 years newer tech than an SNES and a CRT that modern TVs and Emulation STILL can’t replicate the original 1 to 1.
@fazum Жыл бұрын
Older systems has less imput lag. Older computers too.
@peter00710006 ай бұрын
Not crazy at all. It's very hard to emulate very old hardware
@mrhobs7 ай бұрын
Hmm, think putting Mega Man X 2-4 (maybe more) ROMS on the SNES Classic would have less input lag than the collection on Switch? I might pay for them anyway so can legally own them, but play them on the SNES Classic. Haven’t been able to find out good games perform on SNES Classic compared to officially available versions. (Those are the main titles, but there are several other SNES titles I should probably put on the Classic, maybe even some PS1 games.) I’d just play Mega Man X on Switch, but I heard the lag is bad enough to be noticeable. Maybe it was just X1 that was extra bad, idk.
@cooltaylor10154 жыл бұрын
All the other games play fine, but Super Mario World is unplayably laggy on SNES mini. I was hoping a different ROM might fix it, maybe SMAS+SMW. I figured maybe this one was somehow programmed badly. Or maybe it's just I notice lag that much more in a Mario game...
@OldsXCool4 жыл бұрын
Mario games are pretty much the litmus test for input lag because they do require precision jumping. You might not notice it on games like Zelda III. That being said it very well may be your TV causing the input latency. The TV in this video has quite a bit of input latency, like 5 to 6 frames even with game mode on. While the controls on Mario do feel noticeably heavier I wouldn't consider it unplayable, but some are more sensitive than others or just adapt to input latency quicker than others.
@goldgriffin1006 жыл бұрын
Is the music from Air Fortress from the NES. Just wondering as I know I have heard it before.
@NickRightAtYa5 жыл бұрын
Yep it is
@mikeverzosa20614 жыл бұрын
Hi, do you have any experience with flash carts such as the Everdrive? Would it be possible if you could do the same test with the original system and compare it to the flash cart version?
@OldsXCool4 жыл бұрын
There would be absolutely no diffence between the actual cart and the flash cart.
@CalaTec4 жыл бұрын
So Retroarch is faster than the SNES classic when both on a LCD/LED screen. To make the comparison fair you could do retroarch over CRT. eg. /watch?v=_qys9sdzJKI
@OldsXCool4 жыл бұрын
At the time I made this video run ahead in Retroarch did not exist and it still beat the SNES Classic. I have another video that puts Retroarch up against my real hardware on a SD CRT TV. With run ahead on "in Windows 7" Retroarch with run ahead was able to keep up with the CRT even being on a low latency LCD monitor.
@CalaTec4 жыл бұрын
@@OldsXCool Thanks for your answer
@italoa.b.oliveira34994 жыл бұрын
@@OldsXCool Could you test with "runahead" enabled??? (playing FBNEO)
@anthonynales4910 Жыл бұрын
How about the emulation on an old vga monitor
@OldsXCool Жыл бұрын
It's better but not by as much as you would think.
@Trisma6 жыл бұрын
You should have mentioned what adaptor you are using, input polling matters. With a raphnet adaptor you can bring latency down to only 2ms which is only 1/8th of a frame of input lag.
@OldsXCool6 жыл бұрын
I didn't think that I needed to since I mentioned at the very beginning of the video that I am use a wired XBOX One controller so there is no need for an adapter.
@Mezurashii57 жыл бұрын
That's what I was expecting to be honest. Glad you made this, although it's a shame you didn't have a more slick method of triggering the jump that would eliminate the question of syncing the videos.
@OldsXCool7 жыл бұрын
Yeah I know. However I did capture the footage in slow motion at 120 frames to give me a much better idea where to sync the videos up. I studied the footage very very carefully to get them lined up the best that I could and made sure that the SNES Classic had an advantage if anything. I just used what I had available which is normally not the most high tech lol. My name is OldsXCool for a reason.
@CalaTec4 жыл бұрын
What you need now is to use retroarch at 240p mode on a CRT connecting SCART and compare to the console.
@Oragami13375 жыл бұрын
well the TV is the difference, CRT television vs Newer flat screen panels. My SNES will lag like crap on my HDTV unless i put it on game mode.
@OldsXCool5 жыл бұрын
TVs do play a massive part when it comes to input latency that people for some reason refuse to acknowledge. The Frameister adds a frame and the OSSC supposedly doesn't add any frames, but the TVs always add frames. HDTVs are the primary reason we even have to think about all of these different methods of hooking up crap.
@vinnycgaz12 жыл бұрын
Tryn to show my kids n its all jacked up
@TVsBen6 жыл бұрын
What are the specs of the PC? Guessing a Core i3 or i5 or something similar? If that's the case, then the SNES Classic is quite an optimized piece of kit, considering the price. I really like mine attached to a ViewSonic 27" 1080p monitor. I don't feel the lag (though I know that there's at least a little).
@OldsXCool6 жыл бұрын
There is no need to guess my PC specs as I list them right at the beginning of this video. That being said the computer I'm running this on is extremely over powered for running SNES games. An old Intel Celeron or AMD Athlon x2 would be able to do the same. Not to say that Nintendo doesn't have a good emulator in the SNES Classic but it is limited as those who have hacked their consoles have found that there are many games that don't run correctly or at all. The SNES Classic does not have bad input lag at all as I said in the video. Personally though I have not touched mine since I made this video and I do not plan to purchase a NES Classic which has just been re-released.
@davidconlee21967 жыл бұрын
Thanks for making this cool video! I've wondered about the input lag on the mini. Are the retro arch and snes mini being played on the same monitor/tv? If not, that's another potential source of lag difference between the two. It's not clear to me from the video.
@OldsXCool7 жыл бұрын
+David Conlee It is the exact same TV.
@davidconlee21967 жыл бұрын
Awesome. Thanks!
@inceptional5 жыл бұрын
Will someone ever make a modern TV that is as fast response as a CRT TV then?
@OldsXCool5 жыл бұрын
That remains to be seen. The problem is that the desire for low latency is not mainstream enough. Average Joe doesn't notice 8 frames of lag. He doesn't know that input latency is even a thing if he even plays old video games anymore at all. Legacy inputs like S-Video and even now component video have started disappear from new TVs. Most modern console gamers don't care about input lag because most of them can't even feel it. So unless there is a big movement for low latency TVs then latency will always take a back seat when a manufacturer makes a new model.
@joes95454 жыл бұрын
OldsXCool What about a gaming monitor with a very low response time? I picked up a used Dell with a 1ms response time and it seems to be vastly better than my new Samsung LED TV that was really laggy running emulation. I’m running a MAME Hyperspin set up and an X-Arcade controller with ZEROLAG Tri-Mode kit.
@OldsXCool4 жыл бұрын
Your 1ms response time is a measurement of how fast the pixels change state, not how fast your monitor processes a signal. No manufacturer posts input latency in the specifications. There's no modern display as fast as 1ms and probably never will be.
@joes95454 жыл бұрын
OldsXCool Interesting, thank you. It could simply be that my Samsung TV had bad latency and the Dell monitor does not.
@OldsXCool4 жыл бұрын
That is very possible especially when comparing a TV to a monitor. Monitors usually have the edge on latency.
@RMJ19845 жыл бұрын
Why exactly is it, that this input lag cannot be fixed?.
@DavidFilskov3 жыл бұрын
Emulation is like having an interpreter. It's impossible for the interpreter to interpret instantly. The original hardware reacted instantly (almost as fast as the current in a cable) to your input but the emulation must feed your input into a program that mimics the old hardware and mimic it's reaction. Emulation requires layers ... it's is a new CPU running a new program that is running an old program :) - the interpretation / converting of the old program to new commands (for the new CPU) takes a bit of time - like an interpreter needs to hear the original language and think before speaking the translation.
@DavidFilskov3 жыл бұрын
There are ways of removing the delay on new hardware - the second one is probably the best / quickest but also the most expensive: 1) re-pogram the old game in new code that is native to the new CPU / hardware - no interpretation needed - no delay ... 2) use new hardware that can change itself into working just like the old hardware ... that's called "FPGA". An FPGA chip can reprogram itself into an old chip and then run the original old game code without interpretation - no delay.
@michag7985 жыл бұрын
One thing I've noticed is that there is something fishy about Super Mario World's input latency on the SNES Classic. Just compare the jump responsiveness to Castlevania 4 or Megaman X, the latter two seem to be better. Is it some emulation problem or is it like that on the original SNES as well?
@OldsXCool5 жыл бұрын
I don't have a way to confirm this as of where I'm at but I do not know for a fact that Mario jumps on the 3rd frame after input is received on real hardware. Castlevania IV and Megaman most likely jump on the second frame. See my video here to see exactly what I'm talking about. kzbin.info/www/bejne/qIWlopmbqt2jnK8
@chadnorth104 жыл бұрын
yep just got the snes classic for my kids and played SF2 and the input lag makes it almost unplayable. will try to mess with the tv settings, but i have an old HDTV too so i don't know... kinda disappointing. miss the good old days. analog shit with crappy resolution and zero latency is way better for any video game requiring reflexes.
@ShawnHSG3 жыл бұрын
Mine’s the same way. I had wireless controllers for it and thought it was those causing the lag. But even using the wired controllers it came with on the classic, there’s just enough lag to make most games almost unplayable.
@mtoad5 жыл бұрын
You can go wrong with two of the methods. The two laggy ones.
@gbhxvohdchigblkh46202 жыл бұрын
A led attached to the controller would make input lag testing much easier. Do you plan to solder one on the button contacts, I don't know what parts are needed and where exactly they have to be placed? Retrorgb is using this method kzbin.info/www/bejne/pZzSh415o6eimpo
@OpticalHaze5 жыл бұрын
hi, have you also tested a modded PS Classic? I have serious input lag there
@OldsXCool5 жыл бұрын
The Playstation Classic is garbage. There's no way I'll ever own one until they're on clearance for 10 bucks to simply be an ornament in my game room because it still looks cool.
@OpticalHaze5 жыл бұрын
@@OldsXCool you talking about the stock one or modded one? I see potential that's why I purchased one. I mean with Retroarch you really can minimize the lag a bit with GPU Sync options etc. Maybe there will be a better emulator available there one time?!
@OldsXCool5 жыл бұрын
It's not worth it for me. I have 3 computers and a phone that absolutely wreck the Playstation Classic. Plus I have an actual Playstation hooked to a CRT along with over 100 games. That 40 bucks would be much better spent somewhere else.
@denismajor7 жыл бұрын
So, you test RetroArch on monitor, but SNES Classic on TV? Didn't you know, that common modern TV has much greater input lag itself, than common monitor?
@OldsXCool7 жыл бұрын
Denis Major The computer running RetroArch is hooked to the exact same TV That the SNES Classic was hooked up to via HDMI. Didn't you know that a computer can easily be hooked up to a modern TV?
@denismajor7 жыл бұрын
TV on the left and on the right looks completely different. But let it be the same, anyway, TV itself can show a huge input lag, except for PC mode, where it may be (just may be) low. You should check it both on monitor, not TV to exclude any display input lag difference. And that's for original SNES too - it connected to CRT TV, which has no input lag at all, so you can't compare it to SNES Classic or PC in this situation.
@OldsXCool7 жыл бұрын
Denis Major Listen son, don't come here on my channel attempting to school me on how to do a comparison. Perhaps you should look a little further past your nose when looking at the TV on the left because it is the exact same TV that sits on top on of my fireplace mantel. The only think that's different is I was closer to the TV when capturing the screen from Retro Arch. It's evident that they are the same TV as you can still see the "H" from the banner that was hanging across the mantel that can be more easily seen on the right side because I was a little further away from the TV. My TV does not have a "PC" input which I suspect you mean a VGA or DVI port. The computer is hooked up via HDMI just like the SNES Classic with game mode engaged and the picture settings being identical so there is no display lag difference between the two. Lastly you obviously failed to read the text at the end of the video where I said " The CRT footage was just for grins as your results may vary depending on the lag of your own LCD display." Meaning that I put that in there just for fun because real hardware on a CRT latency is the ultimate goal and I thought it would be cool to see how close my display is at this point in time. This test did not require the use of a lower input latency computer monitor because we are not testing the display here, we are comparing the emulators to each other which wouldn't matter even if the display had over 100ms of input lag.
@freddychopin6 жыл бұрын
Holy shit dude, you are such a fucking idiot. EVERYBODY knows that CRTs have virtually zero input lag and that HDTVs inevitably do. As he POINTS OUT IN THE FUCKING VIDEO, the inclusion of the original SNES on a CRT is just for kicks. The point of the video is a direct comparison of Retroarch with the SNES Classic. The next time you condescend to strangers on the internet, try not to make yourself look like an oblivious moron in the process.
@atomic_xfire6 жыл бұрын
@@OldsXCool hey old school, what are you running retroarch on? im trying to research input latency and pi3 seems like a no go. PC builds are huge and lag is my primary concern. Any thoughts?
@icristian67076 жыл бұрын
Try out the latest RA ... enable "run ahead..." ... compare to real SNES on crt (RA vs SNES on CRT) + RA vs SNES on modern screen :). Thanks!
@OldsXCool6 жыл бұрын
That video already exists on my channel. kzbin.info/www/bejne/qIWlopmbqt2jnK8
@ligerstripe996 жыл бұрын
And this is now mute now that retroarch has developed a way to remove input lag altogether. arstechnica.com/gaming/2018/04/better-than-reality-new-emulation-tech-lags-less-than-original-consoles/
@OldsXCool6 жыл бұрын
Ligerstripe I've already made a video on the new run ahead feature. Which I compared to REAL hardware hooked to a CRT. kzbin.info/www/bejne/qIWlopmbqt2jnK8 It is an amazing breakthrough, but it's only faster than real hardware when using Linux because Windows has such a slow USB input polling rate that adding 2 frames of run ahead brings Windows on par with real hardware, which honestly is all anyone should really want.
@enkauf16286 жыл бұрын
Fake or not fake - I do not know. My Snes mini is faster than zsnes & snes 9x.
@OldsXCool6 жыл бұрын
Studio Man This is not a comparison between SNES9X stand alone emulator. This is Retro Arch running the BSNES balanced core. BSNES/Higan and SNES9X stand alone emulators have much higher input latency than their respective cores in Retro Arch. That's what makes Retro Arch so special. Actually now the SNES9X core in Retro Arch is not just faster than the SNES Classic, but is now faster than a real Super Nintendo.
@barbiroto4 жыл бұрын
Windows latency
@miamimagicians2 жыл бұрын
The original super Nintendo not the mini is much much much better
@OldsXCool2 жыл бұрын
Understand that the Super Nintendo I used in this video was hooked up to a standard definition CRT TV whereas the computer and SNES mini are hooked to a relatively laggy LCD display, so the real Super Nintendo appears to blow both Retroarch and SNES Classic out of the water when in reality both are pretty close to the response of real SNES hardware. Some may say that I should have hooked the real Super Nintendo to the same LCD screen that I hooked the others up to, but the fact is on my LCD TV the real Super Nintendo lags worse than the computer or even the SNES Classic. Not to mention it looks like crap too and that is all due to my TV not playing nice with 240p resolutions. That looks to be changing finally though. My brother's OLED TV handles 240p extremely well so it looks like there's hope. Plus now you can just get a Retrotink 2X to upscale 240p to 480p which looks and plays good.
@miamimagicians2 жыл бұрын
Don't you find the jumping time much faster on the original super Nintendo? When I played it on the super Nintendo classic mini it was like I was stuck in mud everything was much slower and felt so much more floaty. I didn't like it especially in contra