Snippet: Stress- Recovery- Adaptation and Programming Considerations

[@markwurtz8759]

I have been training on and off for 40+ years. This is the best explanations of recovery/stress/adaptation I have ever heard.

[@BarbellMedicine]

Mark Wurtz thank you!

[@chuck4096]

Yep for sure

[@Keefer434]

Every time I start thinking I understand programming, you gotta come in here and introduce a different concept... Love it.

[@BarbellMedicine]

Ryan Keefe I feel like I’m still learning too- we all are :$

[@Keefer434]

If you're not learnin, you're just sittin still right?

[@nuhomusic9343]

This channel needs to blow up.

[@Wildcamp-lifestyle]

The suggestion that you would just train less to get better is a straw man. I don’t think any SS coaches thing that. But I understand why he was using it as an analogy. When he said “If when you do 5 3 1 are you getting stronger if the weight goes up on ones or did you just change the test?” Well, it you start back at the beginning of the cycle and finished each component of it higher than you did last time then yes you got stronger.

[@gregorycocco9043]

This was great. I never got the recovery taking longer explanation. Especially because these intermediate programs have you working out more! Thanks.

[@En1Gm4A]

Great analysis. Opened my eyes

[@swaglord696]

This is pure gold

[@TheHaiku2]

This is what a lot of folks seem to believe over at the SS reddit. I get shouted down anytime I tell people that they shouldn't drop to deadlifting once per week from twice. They think because it's so hard and grindy at the end that it's TOO MUCH stress. I tell them if we go by their logic then you should be able to stop deadlifting and in a couple years set a deadlift world record...

[@DrAdnan]

I’m doing 5/3/1 now and wondering if I’m spinning my wheels :(

[@jordanrouse2029]

Thanks guys, I’ve been struggling with conceptualizing changing stress versus recovery for a while. This way of saying it really cleared things up

[@someHandle95]

Nice into Jordan. Great content as well. 🙆

[@enoruel]

I asked about myo reps in one of the insta lives but you didn’t get to it. Could you go into on a two minute Tuesday? Really like to hear about them from a strength perspective rather than bodybuilding perspective. Pros, cons, are they appropriate for main lifts and supplemental lifts and how you would program them. Really enjoy your content. Thanks!

[@BarbellMedicine]

They would be a type of hypertrophy priority programming decision or, as stated here, a way to jam in a bunch of training.

[@Monocerus90]

Barbell Medicine In the clip Jordan states that transitioning from novice to intermediate should not accompany a reduction in total stress. Why is it that majority of popular intermediate strength programs seem to drop total volume... Ie- Texas method... You say running out of "recovery" is a fundamental misconception. So PLEASE... Where does one go from a straight set 5x5 stronglifts program when they begin to stall on the main lifts? I really can't find a straight solution

[@dylanhebert7054]

I noticed in some of your training footage that you're a fan of working up to a heavy single and then backing off to your actual working sets of the day. Could you explain the function of that from a programming perspective?

[@ataitful]

Would not it be better to avoid the advanced novice variation for squats altogether then? If the reason you are not able to continue to make progress is the lack of sufficient stress as opposed to recovery why waste time doing a lighter day mid week?

[@zeljko4189]

8:37 so damn nuanced my head exploded 😂never heard someone explain it that way.

[@Sonofshane1]

Top stuff coach!

[@BitMatt1]

Just when I think my LP is over it keeps going. I have been adding reps not taking them away. Adding 2.5lb every workout and 1x5,1x6,1x7.

[@sveinung93]

Doubling or tripling someones squat with LP is increasing their volume in tonnage. This is something to consider when blaming low volume for lack of progress?

[@thesamu100]

its the same volume (reps x sets) and the same relative intensity (around 85% 1rm)

[@scottwilson4798]

Sveinung Bakken this is an example of why tonnage is a pretty useless variable to measure/record - it doesn’t tell you anything about the stress your providing the lifter

[@BeyondBedsideNursing]

By "adding volume" is that sets, reps, or weight? Or is it: hard, working sets? Instead of 5x5 hard sets of squats, I do 6x5; or instead of 5x5, I do 4x8; or I just increase weight?

[@Huffman_Tree]

5:39 Jordan is that your Rip face?

[@timsargent3446]

What drone do you use for video?

[@spencermariano8454]

Powerful Steve cook intro

[@AFWoodFloors]

What is your definition of "stress"? Is it volume (ie. weight x reps)?

[@ashquigley8708]

Hi do you have much experience with Osteochondritis Dissecans of Knee. I have just been diagnosed and told to stop strength training. I do not experience pain from lifting but walking in general or long days on my feet kill. I was an ultra marathon runner in years ago which i am blaming for it.

[@BarbellMedicine]

I have trained a number of people with this and similar conditions, but unfortunately I cannot advise you on management of this issue over KZbin.

[@ashquigley8708]

Thank you for replying and all your content, I really enjoy it.

[@userer4579]

How does the paradigm of "too little stress" apply to the masters lifter that is nearing the end or finishing their novice LP?

[@BarbellMedicine]

The same way it applies to a younger lifter- they still need more stress to adapt. Additionally, the older the lifter- the more training resistant they are insofar as they generate a smaller response to a given bout of training than they would if they were younger.

[@userer4579]

Thank you for your reply, Dr. Feigenbaum. As an older lifter I've been trying to figure out my next steps in programming. As I recall, the general idea for older lifters (over 55) seems to be keep the intensity high w/o overdoing the volume

[@andrugator]

"peaking" is a mistake i made. Got to 315lbs squat 3x5, and switched to 3x3 because it was heavy as f*ck. Barely could do 3x3 325, had to fall back to 285 3x5 and it feels heavy. Gonna do "bridge" BM's program now

[@zs600]

Andrey Andreev Same thing here.

[@korbyn49]

I’ve been doing SSNLP for 10 weeks. I’m at 150kg on squat. I’ve started having some knee pain when squatting so I’m going to implement a light day on Wednesday. Is this the right thing to do?

[@chinarep1]

Probably not. First thing you should do is find a way to record yourself squatting and then post the video onto the form check section of the starting strength forums. Stuff like knee pain is usually due to less than perfect form. Failing to complete your 3 sets of 5 multiple times and after a couple of resets is usually your sign that you should switch to intermediate or advanced novice programming.

[@NeuronActivation]

Use knee sleeves

[@Kim-zs6yb]

GREAT VIDS :D

[@xiaomingmo5469]

I always thought that was recovery problem:( Does that mean I should not waste any time on advanced LP phase, because that's just peaking? Once stops progressing on 3x5, then start with bridge or HLM etc., is that right?

[@xiaomingmo5469]

If it isn't a recovery problem, then why on advanced LP phase, when I do heavy squat on M/F, and a 20% back off on W, why I fell 85% of Monday's squat is heavy as sh*t, and I cannot squat Monday's weight on Wednesday?

[@Rahloom]

I had the same issue- failed around 225 3 times on LP, then switched to advanced LP and took my 1x5 to 290. Was I strong enough to 5rep 290 when I was only doing 225 for 3x5? I seriously doubt it

[@xiaomingmo5469]

That's may be the case, because I was having shitty sleep and under loads of stress. However, logically, if it is not recovery problem, that implies I can fully recover from Monday's work, just cannot add another 5 lbs to the bar(because I can progress on Friday, so maybe 1 or 2 lbs is okay?), then on advanced LP phase, because recovery is not the problem, stress is, can't I just squat the same weight on Monday and Wednesday, and add 5 lbs on Friday? Why the 20% deload on Wednesday? Or I am missing the big picture?

[@xiaomingmo5469]

Or like Jordan implies every pound of progress you make in advanced LP phase is because of peaking, from adding weight three times a week to two times a week, from sets across to back off sets, from sets of five to sets of three. Should we just skip advanced LP phase if we just want to develop our strength?

[@xiaomingmo5469]

Kijanu Rivs actually I always consider Wednesday as the light day in HLM, acts as an active recovery "The light day is an absolutely essential component of the program; it is a recovery day. A light training load should not be enough to induce an overload and disrupt homeostasis, and it is not really a part of the overload event. It should be light enough to allow for recovery while at the same time providing enough work through the movement pattern to keep it fresh" -- PPST3 That why I thought it was recovery problem, you cannot recover from Monday's work in 48 hours, then we are not able to add weight to the bar 3x/w, so we add extra recovery time in order to progress 2x/w, after several weeks, 3x5 doesn't generate enough stress, so we change to another program with lower intensity/much higher volume.

[@bruthafromanothamutha7372]

my old ass (43) seems to need 3 days to recover from a SS LP workout. Is that not recommended?

[@chinarep1]

Brutha Fromanothamutha One of the modifications to the SSLP for older trainees is doing 2 workouts per week instead of 3. I haven't read the barbell prescription yet, but if I remember correctly, they usually only have to make that change for trainees over the age of 60 and only if 3 workouts a week is too much. Of course if you have other things going on, for example a physically stressful job or other sport, 2 workouts per week might be appropriate even if you aren't that old.

[@bruthafromanothamutha7372]

David Livermore thanks, made me feel old :). I don't necessarily have a physically demanding job, although it involves lots of travel and mental stress. I tried 3x per week and it worked well for about 5-6 weeks but since things have started getting (relatively) heavier, I am getting inflammation and basically have to end each workout with a 700 mg dose of Ibuprofen. Wondering if I should try to stick it out 3 days a week anyway though. On a side note, my progress has slowed down and my form has worsened if I try to keep adding weight pn the bar - and ut pisses me off since my numbers are nowhere near where they should be when things start stalling : 105 kg squat, 135 kg deadlift, 87.5 kg bench and 60 kg press. I weigh on at about 96 kg so those numbers are much less impressive that they should be... Anyway thanks for your help...

[@HAL-dm1eh]

Are you getting enough protein? I remember one kid complaining about tendonitis and Mark telling him eat more protein, meaning 50 more gm's per day. It's also recommended we eat more anyway when we're older as they say we have less efficient digestion/absorption. IDK how scientifically based that is but it's what they say. I did find when I skimped on my diet more, I got sore tendons. When I upped the protein again, they disappeared like magic. Just putting that out there.

[@bruthafromanothamutha7372]

David McClelland you may be on to something... I think my protein intake falls short of what it needs to be at least 3 days a week. I guess I hadn't considered that this might be stalling my gains. I will focus a little more on this. It might help. Thanks...

[@chinarep1]

Brutha Fromanothamutha Read Feigenbaum's "To Be a Beast" article and Rip's "The First Three Questions" article. The first article is about nutrition and gives a few examples of what people of various ages and body weights usually need to eat. The second article is about why people usually get stuck even though they are still novices. I can tell you from experience undereating really messes up your recovery and ability to make progress.

[@notsoserious0944]

Stress+recovery+adaptation=increased strength. With all due respect your new formula is stress=increased strength. The simple definition of the tapped out novice is a trainee who cannot recover from the stress applied, in order to adapt, in the allotted amount of time. Therefore while stress drives the process, recovery produces the strength. That or I seem to be off the rails.

[@tzqrr]

So, then, the next logical move would be to start training 1 day on, 2 days off, so you can recover, right? Then when that stops working, go to 1 day on, 3 days off. Eventually you're training once a week. Then once a month ...

[@notsoserious0944]

I don't know. I'm not a moron but I don't understand the post-novice programming at ALL. About the first of the new year, my APAP was cleared by insurance and I started making gains on the LP again after I began therapy. Before that, I was sure the LP was coming to an end. One thing for sure...I felt like shiiiiiiiit. I was tired before training and missing reps in the second and third sets across. I don't understand how more stress would have helped. And I'm fifty two and not exactly a specimen. Squat 325, DL at 325, and press at 157, working sets. No coach.

[@tzqrr]

Right, you misunderstand - the idea that stress needs to go up assumes that the LP is "legitimately" ending (in other words, this ASSUMES there is no OBVIOUS recovery issue (like someone losing a bunch of weight, never sleeping, etc.), that clearly needs to be addressed. But for the otherwise "normal" trainee, stress needs to increase.

[@notsoserious0944]

Well, if you are running out of video ideas...how about transitioning (ummm in the training sense) out of the LP for absolute dummies. And I mean utter, absolute, complete and total vacuum. All I know is BAB and ABA rinse and repeat. I really DREAD trying to figure out intermediate on my own. Not that I'm gonna stop.

[@HAL-dm1eh]

notsoserious09, these two are causing A LOT of confusion with their teaching methods, and Jordan has been VERY wrong on a number of statements. My advice, get Barbell Prescription since you are a Master strength trainer. It sums up and simplifies a lot of things for us older guys and puts us on the right track. And stop listening to these two.

[@perturbo]

What's wrong with 3 minute rest periods on SS?

[@BarbellMedicine]

David Van Legendary it may compromise your ability to perform your work sets.

[@Rahloom]

It's potentially not enough rest time. Hit 5 mins between work sets to reduce the amount of set-to-set fatigue that could compromise your ability to complete the next set.

[@perturbo]

Oh okay. I could have sworn in the past you said 3 minutes was more than enough and longer than that didn't seem to have a noticeable benefit. EDIT: At 8:40 here you say you novices don't need 5 minutes? kzbin.info/www/bejne/qZOxeHhrg8eKeqs

[@BarbellMedicine]

No, I said on Day 1 you probably don't need the full 5 minute rest periods- which is true. Later, you probably do.

[@perturbo]

Ah okay, thanks for the clarification.

[@zach5557]

So what if before I began the starting strength program I was working out 5 days a week and then once I started starting strength I went down to 3 days of working out a week. Would that hinder my strength results since my body was used to working out 5 days a week and went to 3?

[@drtooke]

Buddy Lake Are you training squats 5 days a week at maximum 3x5, recovering, adapting, and increasing your bar weight each day? I doubt it, unless you are an absolute beginner or on high doses of anabolic steroids. If you are a novice I highly recommended going with SS 3 days a week and experience the linear progression. It will allow for proper recovery and adaptation. It is hard, it works, and you get strong.

[@GeorgeLocke]

The argument Feigenbaum makes regarding increasing rest going to never working out doesn't work. He says that at the absurd extreme of never working out you're still getting stronger, but, in principle, the more rest theory is that you take more rest and progress more slowly, so that at the extreme, you're never working and there's no progress. This is not to say that he's wrong in his conclusion that more rest isn't the answer. Just that the argumentum ad absurdum he makes is invalid.

[@BarbellMedicine]

You're mistunderstanding my position, George. The "you need to recover more/better/dissipate more fatigue" angle of the argument suggests that you reduce some amount of stress that's being applied, e.g. by decreasing reps, increasing # of rest days between training sessions, or doing one heavy set with some back offs. That does not produce continued progress slowly, rather it allows for the realization and display of previously developed strength. In my thought experiment, I showcased how doing less would not work, which it doesn't.

[@GeorgeLocke]

I'm not sure I'm following you, and probably I'm missing some context since the question isn't on in the video, but it's not worth your explaining it to me since I already agree with the conclusion that intermediates need more stress not more recovery.

[@jbosko95]

Barbell Medicine I think you were defining recovery by its relation with stress, instead of itself as an autonomous factor (amount of sleep, muscle relieve and strecht, anxiety levels etc.)

[@MrCrossfireno1]

Good vid and explanation but strongly disagree with the bit about 5/3/1. BBM puts out lots of great stuff but Jordan needs to just ditch talking about 5/3/1 imo.