So Much Low Friction!

[@glennmorgan8691]

Welcome home bud!!!I'm glad you had a blast on your American tour!Cheers!!!

[@neutronpcxt372]

Welcome back Adam, and helloooo that project list! You have so much stuff to do and yet, we peeps are asking so much from you.

[@robertmcfadyen9156]

Don't put undue pressure on him as he has limited space and equipment / resources . He has a relatively small operation . Not a large commercial laboratory .

[@simongreen4573]

Hi Adam... welcome back. Sounds like you had a fab time!!!

[@ShawnIsBatman]

Thank you for your continued efforts, both those that are visual to us and and mountain of work that you do that we never see...we are all better off for your efforts. Just today as I was pedaling down the trail (road bike), enjoy my completely smooth and silent drive train, I thought to myself how far things have come with respect to lubricants both in terms of the technology and my own education. I can credit part of my enjoyment of the ride experience to your efforts as well as to Silca, my lubrication products of choice. What did you think of the show/experience at the Sphere in Las Vegas? I was in LV about a week ago and saw the show.

[@zerofrictioncycling992]

yeah i loved it but then i love movies and experiences like that so i am fairly easily pleased on that front! How about yourself?

[@ShawnIsBatman]

@@zerofrictioncycling992 I thought that the entire sensory experience of The Sphere show was amazing. I was marginally impressed with the AI robots in the atrium (full disclosure, I work in IT and I was trying to explain how the AI worked to my wife, she just rolled her eyes and walked away, her usual response). Being from the US, I found the story line of the movie to be an interesting choice, that we are ruining the planet via pollution....here in the US, that idea will immediately alienate about 50% of the population. Overall, I would highly recommend The Sphere show to anyone, a truly incredible experience. I would love to see someone strap an 18,000K camera to Tom Pidcock on a huge mountain decent and then turn that into a Sphere experience!

[@Lacking_something]

Welcome back. I feel stressed thinking about bad food and no exercise 😂 Is there a video on summary of best chains? I'd like to get 11 sp chain for dry conditions... Wondering which has lowest £ per mile.

[@zerofrictioncycling992]

Thanks neil! and not so much, as best is subjective (ie fastest = Dura ace, or best blend of speed and wear life = ybn sla, or ultimate wear life = Shimano link glide lg500 or sram xx1 11) - if you were looking as best $$ for lifespan then link glide lg500 for sure

[@thrawed]

Any plans to run a chain prepped with a silca strip chip and lubed with silca hot melt through the friction wear testing to see if the strip chip being mixed with the wax changes the lubricant properties of the wax for better or worse? I don't think I saw it in your to-do list but am super curious to see any results of that as I am sure are many others.

[@zerofrictioncycling992]

yes sorry that should be on the list but it is going to be a little further down. I am first going to try to get CS to efficiency test as any differences will show up faster. From my observations the wax is pretty stiff, but i am not yet sure if that is from the strip chip or if HM has changed a little - the pellets these days are shiny grey, used to be dull grey - so i need to do a normal HM wax again on the usual solvent prepped chain and compare to how stiff wax was and its been a fairly long break in - but mind you it was also pretty cold first ride out which does increase wax break in time too. But for sure potential changes from strip chip are on the to do list i just forgot to transpose from mental to the list yest!

[@thrawed]

@@zerofrictioncycling992 Awesome!

[@glenngoodwin3899]

Thank you

[@dawn_rider]

​@@zerofrictioncycling992 It's likely Silca put an excess of hardener in the chips. Unless all the factory greases interact in a similar way ( I am wondering is sram is an outlier ) then after 6 chips the imbalance may be significant ? Only Silca know how the 5 ingredients they contain interact with grease when also possibly interacting with base wax ? Silca's order of operation is interesting. Dissolving a chip in the wax at 125°C before adding a chain suggests little short term interaction between wax and the chip. I wonder if it makes any difference if you add the chip after the grease has dissolved in the wax ?

[@zerofrictioncycling992]

@@dawn_rider yes that is true, i am pretty certain it would not work as planned if not follow instructions. Ie he advises re how much softer the wax becomes from FG of one chain, can the strip chip reverse that after the fact or is it like unscrambling and egg - i am not sure. Over time i will try to confirm such things as i have no doubt there will be those that dont follow the steps precisely, and if things dont go as planned if deviate, then we need to be super clear on the instructions. I have tried to confirm strip chip to wax ratio's, minimum amount of wax for a strip chip etc - but havent been too successful yet. The official line appears to be a) you can use the 6 strip chips with one 500gram bag of wax and b) i think it was minimum of 150ml or 200ml wax? not 100% sure. but for sure if one started with a FG chain and new bag of wax and a strip chip, and then 10,000km later did another chain - the amount of wax will have gone from 500g to 300g ish. And then X time later with another strip chip on another chain, and then another, and another - the strip chip to wax ratio could be / would be very different to the initial strip chip - what does this do overall and how will experiences vary .... at this time is unclear.

[@Niemand_echt_niemand]

Welcome back! I was hoping to see the testing of the DIY striping method (OZ-Cycle) in the to do list. Still dont overwork yourself! Take it to a reasonbale speed.

[@zerofrictioncycling992]

yeah some diy testing vs commercial im not sure if / when could get to, ideally those putting forward DIY should be presenting the testing & proof of their DIY vs me trying to check such. It is relatively difficult to assess these things just based on feel, really i need to wear test a strip chip prepped chain vs DIY prep - which i will add to the list, but yeah.... timeline on that i am not sure...

[@Niemand_echt_niemand]

@@zerofrictioncycling992 I completely agree with you. Still would like to see some proper testing to find out if and how stark the differences would be.

[@davidnickson7034]

Going back to the Jason Smith wax testing results and when we used to converse by phone you mentioned that the only way to obtain reasonable information and results is to record distance covered and resulting wear. My chain has been cleaned once since new (stripped of factory grease), I following your method and then I have used a food grade paraffin wax (not sure what that means but I obtain the paraffin wax from a local beekeeper, very low cost) and record the results, that is record kilometers covered and use the Shimano wear gauge you advised. The wax is not beeswax it is paraffin, I have had it since the first wax lubrication results were published by Jason Smith and before any commercial products were available, the pot used is an old slow cooker. Wax applied every 200km and usually more frequently than that and after every wet ride, YBN chain used. No ultra sonic gadgets, no special pot, no expensive wax products, the most expensive purchase has been the one off purchase of the Shimano wear measuring gauge and the chain. So far 20,000 km covered on a road bike and still not to the point that a new chain is required, chain rings and cassette still good. 13,000 km covered so far on a car replacement ebike and a few friends have the same results due to following Zero Friction Cycling information. Even though paraffin waxing has been around for a very long time, Adam's testing has converted many people to chain lubrication nirvana and looking at the data, I doubt that some of the products would exceed a significant difference but does that matter? From my perspective, my results show that sticking to my knitting is justified.

[@zerofrictioncycling992]

Yes honestly if we could get the majority of cyclists to simply track kms to genuine 0.5% (factoring their riding and conditions) - then the cyclists over time would easily be able to determine for themselves what is good, great, meh, terrible - and not buy the meh or terrible - and that would put pressure on some brands selling really poor performing products (but with powerful marketing, bike store penetration, and benefits for the LBS to sell those brands and products). Overall we have a long way to go re above with still the majority of cyclists never checking chain wear, or if they do that part, matching that to kms and so they just assume that what they are using is good. It can even be that marketing has them convinced such that even if they did get a poor result, wow how much worse things would be if they were not on a product that claimed x / y / z like theirs etc.

[@_johnm]

Would having another test machine actually help?

[@michaelpeace1201]

Welcome back

[@andorsn]

The problem with the Silca pot is that the temperature probe is not inside the wax container but very close to the heating element. That means it doesn’t know the temperature of the wax. Within a few minutes it shows the target temperature on the display while the wax is still solid.

[@thrawed]

Isn't that a good thing? Sure you have to wait longer for the thing to fully melt but if you were heating the wax via a sensor in the middle isn't it possible the wax on the outside would get too hot? A lot of those wax products have relatively low max temps listed for the friction additives they use. e.g Absolute Black say never exceed 100c.

[@zerofrictioncycling992]

hmmm - i have a digital thermometer, i will check how long it takes to get to 125 after showing 125 - good thing to flag, it will need to be factored in if its any real delay as the strip chip needs that 125 for 10 mins, so if its not 125 when it says its 125, that will need to be flagged for sure.

[@andorsn]

@@zerofrictioncycling992 to be fair, it works better when set to 125ºC: above about 100º, the displayed temperature rises slower and 125 is only reached when all wax is melted. But at my usual waxing temperature below 100 it doesn't accurately tell the temperature while the heater is on.

[@glenngoodwin3899]

Hey Adam, welcome back. I may have missed it in the video, but is the new Red chain cross compatible with the earlier axs road flattop?

[@zerofrictioncycling992]

Ah yes sorry i may not have been clear there - yes absolutely it is a sram red chain still, so it is same compatibility as normal red, just lighter and more expensive. The Red / force / rival line of chains are for the srams axs road and xplr drivetrains, but not t-type. You can run t-type on axs road, but..... not the other way around. Sram is doing super re compatibility!

[@SamuelBlackMetalRider]

FINALLY a YBN top chain for SRAM AXS 12s road!! And as expected, much faster! Thing is… it costs almost exactly the same as the new SRAM RED E1 chain… (which comes in Rainbow too hahaha) for some reason the SILVER version is 2/3 of the price of YBN MK120 Black & Gold while apparently all are Ti? Any reason for this?

[@zerofrictioncycling992]

I havent go pricing for aussie yet, but i am hoping they will be not too bad. They will be cheaper than most T-Type at least hahahaha! The platings on all chains are cosmetic, some cost more to do. Ie silver is nickel plating - whilst black, gold, rainbow etc is Ti-N - which can cost more. For the existing ybn sla chains, rainbow costs more than black and gold which costs more than silver. Some brands the pricing is all the same all the time which will often mean the price is set for good margin on the most expensive to mfg, and so even better margin on silver vs if they were priced more in line with costs.

[@SamuelBlackMetalRider]

@@zerofrictioncycling992 on a German website the silver is 68€ while the black & gold are 95€! The name states that silver is also Ti though? Just a name error then? Does that mean the Nickel Plating treatment isn’t as good as the Ti-N treatment? Also what’s your opinion on their SLA claim? Still better to thoroughly degrease their news chain and remove alo that SLA thing? Thank you very much

[@zerofrictioncycling992]

@@SamuelBlackMetalRider Yes i think so re naming - as far as i have ever seen so far silver / shiny silver is nickel plating. And yeah thats a way big price difference, there is no way the w/sale pricing is like that (i will find out soon...) - sometimes its just a supply / demand thing and what a retailer thinks they can charge. No there is no performance difference at all between any colour platings - they are 99%+ just cosmetic. All the action happens inside the chain, thats where all the surfaces are sliding under load, so it is the design, tolerance and surface treatment / finish INSIDE the chain that = performance & wear life, colour platings are purely cosmetic. There is some sliding friction interaction between side of plates and sides of teeth on chain ring / cassette on chain line angles, but its been too small a loss area for anyone to measure - or for anyone focussing on such things - to bother trying to measure to see if there is any difference between say the dull grey plates of a shimano chain vs silver Nickel plating vs Ti-N. Any difference is going to be so miniscule that really just treat all such as cosmetic. SLA is superior lubricating aid - this is an embedded low friction coating onto the chain metal as part of the mfg, and is done prior to chain construction, and forms part of a chains performance. You are not cleaning that treatment off when you clean off factory grease, and yes you absolutely want to clean factory grease off any new chain as step one, and move to a chose top lubricant.

[@SamuelBlackMetalRider]

@@zerofrictioncycling992 thanks a lot for yoir thorough answer, as usual! Yeah it’s probably just a marketing pricing difference. Gold & black being more rare? More bling? Who knows. Glad to know Silver won’t be less efficient than Ti-N hahaha

[@draugmithrin]

Is it a bad idea to swish a magnet in Silca Secret Chain Blend Hot Melt Wax to remove metal particles? So far hot waxing my chains since April is going well. I put some nicen new flat steel chainrings on my commute bike including a Surly stainless steel one which gives a nice smooth drivetrain. I use YBN 7 speed nickel plated chains on the commute bike and 9 speed YBN SLA Ti-Nitride on the roadbike, usually hot wax them once a week or after rain.

[@zerofrictioncycling992]

no a powerful magnet is a good idea to swish through the wax periodically. Even from normal wear over time fine metal particles can also get into wax

[@dawn_rider]

Just to be safe if you are using a Neodymium magnet of unknown grade , keep the wax temperature less than 80°C. Do a search for ... how does temperature affect neodymium magnets If you are buying a magnet for wax cleaning you can get a grade that makes temperature a non issue !

[@vitalbikechains]

What instrument are you using to measure chain wear?

[@zerofrictioncycling992]

For testing or for just general chain wear checking?

[@vitalbikechains]

For testing. You seem to have very precise values.

[@zerofrictioncycling992]

@@vitalbikechains it is kmc digital chain checker (i have 3) - they measure to 0.01mm, so all check measures are to that.

[@vitalbikechains]

@@zerofrictioncycling992 That was going to be my guess. I'll order one. Thanks so much for your help.

[@zerofrictioncycling992]

@@vitalbikechains ah they are not always awesome just for general use - i have 3, they all measure differently - so all are rated to the one i use as the main tool in case there is ever an issue with that tool (and i double check measures). But for about $250 you could get one that measures a 0.5% chain as circa 0.3 or 0.4 or 0.5 - so will need to calibrate your new tool with chain at 0.5%. Once done, and you know how tool reads - then all groovy, but sadly for $250 they are not plug n play as their baseline measure is too variable out of the box. I have filed 2 of mine to get into the ballpark.

[@infocuslearning]

From the length of your “to do” list, I would guess that retirement is some way off!

[@zerofrictioncycling992]

ha yeah.....to be honest im also trying to slowly reduce my work hours..... and i am really going to try to limit that more strictly soon, just too many other things i need to do as well, some of which require a bit of focus and energy - and so the outright speed i can work through everything will not be as rapid as someone going hard 8 to 10 hours a day. This was supposed to be a hobby business, and i really need it to be, so fingers crossed lets see how i go..... :)

[@davidnickson7034]

Getting to the point that a simple and effective method of wax lubrication is getting much more complex and perhaps mre expensive.

[@alexgold1981]

Not really, silca sells a pack with stripper and SSS for not much more than the cost of the lube only. Ufo clean, stripper or even the old school spirits/alcohol option are also good and none of them need a silly expensive pot either

[@zerofrictioncycling992]

Hmmm not sure how one would get that takeaway but maybe i am missing something. Between DT clean, stripper, and now strip chip - thats already 3 very easy methods to prep a chain, all of which compete well on cost vs traditional solvent method. Those 3 methods are all much less time and steps vs degreasing / solvent. And at the end of the day, any one of the prep options at a cost of around $8aud - really that is nothing to worry about when that means your chain on a top lubricant (depending on model and riding) of really anywhere from circa 8000km to 25,000km, as well as the accompanying bigger savings to component wear - which depending on groupset can be huge these days. Ie my new T-Type drivetrain - the chain is $250 aud, and the cassette is $1100 aud. Honestly not immersive waxing, or at the very least a proven top wax lube option - the $$ hit from any level of great wear is going to be very big very quickly. And sadly, there will be lots of mtb riders still who are on T-Type who just ride in the world of dirt and dust with factory grease, and then move to a who knows what wet lube (finish line? muc-off?). That is just big $$ ouch. Just omg so big $$ ouch - a lot of T-Type riders are going to get drivetrain running cost bill shock thats for sure (and after the first hit, then the smarter ones look at doing things differently next chain and cassette). So yeah, $8 to easily prep a chain for a great long life on a top lube choice (and thus great cassette life) - i dont see the same point you have picked up, nor see where that was picked up from - my messaging has been the opposite.

[@robertmcfadyen9156]

​@@zerofrictioncycling992 My SRAM transmission chains and cassettes aren't quite as costly as you have quoted here .

[@draugmithrin]

I find Silca hot waxing inexpensive and easy (see ZFC's "waxed life like a boss" vid) after the initial investment and chain prepping. I wax my commute and road bike often rotating multiple chains. I tend to remove the chain often anyway to work on bike, clean and check bearings running smoothly , so putting the chain in and out of the wax pot is easier than all the faff, waste and mess of wet lube or even drip wax. I really notice the difference riding, and cleaning and maintenance is quicker than before.

[@zerofrictioncycling992]

@@robertmcfadyen9156 thats aussie rrp. In aus sometimes peeps can purchase from online sellers at under rrp (some of our big retailers have been able to buy direct from sram, bypassing the importer, and so sell at prices everyone else who has to purchase via sram importer cannot match). but purchasing components under RRP, and by how much is not a known thing, so it is easier for me to just assume RRP cost to replace components.

[@wazzup105]

Can't you just buy a few more test machines? (and hire an assistant.. put those kids to work already ;-)

[@zerofrictioncycling992]

Ha yes.......oh man if only peeps knew - let me tell you overall the testing is a grind. Keeping 3 machines going as much as possible is very difficult, and going any more i would for sure need someone to take over other work of mine, which just isnt viable really - the margins just aint there for just selling chain lubricants and chains, and testing is very low $$ for the time it takes, i havent worked out an approx hourly rate for testing as im too scared too hahahahaha. I think if i was in america i could get interns to work for free doing stuff? :)

[@RPaton]

Nutrition, try carnivore. Shawn Baker, Georgia Ede, Ken Berry, Anthony Chaffee, Mikhaila Peterson, etc