So, WHERE do the Germans say the Qur'an was compiled?

[@raelenebroome4047]

Thank you for another excellent presentation. It certainly gives one a lot to consider. I'm curious what Thomas will present next. God bless you both.

[@mylifeforthelord5535]

Vielen Dank, Thomas! Wir möchten noch mehr Videos, bitte! 😁

[@roshlew6994]

Didn't St. Murad make the connection that Umayyads were from Central Asia? Name of Tajikistan was derived from Tayaye Arab tribe ?

[@damongeo840]

If you say it to the people in Turkmenistan, they will be delighted. Thank you for sharing.

[@albm706]

Thank you Thomas Alexander and Dr Jay for this very enlightening presentation. I hope the Inara Group will publish these findings asap in the English language as well. Thank you.

[@donking3540]

Quran: They desire to extinguish Allah’s Light with their mouths but Allah will perfect His Light, though the disbelievers hate it. (Surah Saff, verse 8)

[@albm706]

@@donking3540 indeed Allah will establish His light. They cannot extinguish his light. Their fake hadith and sunnah will be extinguished. Allahu Azeem.

[@sushillugun6462]

Thank you Dr. Jay, as it looks very agreeable study and I think must be perfectly understanding from Thomas

[@orunabho]

One thing about the Aramaic language and the scripts. One of the Ashoka's Rock edicts is in Khandahar, a bilingual one. Khanahar is in modern Afghanistan. One is in Greek and the other is in Aramaic. And that is 3rd century BCE.

[@sagarjackie7366]

I saw this in the documentary by Simca Jakobivici on the 10 lost tribes of Israel. He says that the Pathans of Afghanistan identify themselves as Beni Israel. For eg Rabbani is from Reuben, Afridi is from Ephraim. He actually shows these Ashoka inscriptions with Aramaic writings in the film.

[@arthurtane6505]

Superb! A real eye opener.

[@camaradd]

Thank you so much for these well researched and insightful episodes. We are learning so much, and I sincerely appreciate the candour with which you present these findings and are open to scrutiny and refutation with legitimate and plausible reasoning. It is a reflection of your academic modesty and sincerity (which is not common now). Sadly, as someone who grew up in West Africa, in a largely muslim country, having an academic discussion like this is futile. It is hard to penetrate the hearts and minds of people who have been long conditioned to believe in the "standard narrative of islam" but can neither read/understand arabic nor are even aware of the basic islamic references (hadiths, tafsirs, sirah, etc). However, by the grace of God and the enabling of the Holy Spirit, I shall do my part to research and confirm these findings, and whittle it down to easily understandable evidences for any average person, muslim or otherwise, I speak to about these historical matters.

[@SEKreiver]

The strong Merv connections were pointed out on Mel's channel, as I recall. Nowhere near to this level, though.

[@roshlew6994]

Didn't St. Murad make the connection that Umayyads were from Central Asia? Name of Tajikistan was derived from Tayaye Arab tribe ?

[@fay1298]

@@roshlew6994 agree. Murad did make the Merv/Iraq connection.

[@Speakers154]

Yes, Murad did point this out and was basing it on the Inarah research.

[@dollahmusa6705]

Tq Thomas and JS keep up ur gud work , keep diging the history of islam ..let the muslims open their eyes ..

[@sidprice6214]

There is a difference between digging into history and making up stories. You should take your own advice and "open their eyes".

[@dollahmusa6705]

@@sidprice6214 Why explaining to me, call them to get a clear picture, history is true, what actually is !!!! Cos many try to cover up history....go and read dont talk much !!

[@royprb1573]

Thank you very much brother Thomas for bring this information to us. GBU

[@dmxdmx0885]

Great sharing. Truly mind blowing findings.

[@bentajay2026]

Thankyou quite productive and profitable to those who are ready to learn

[@glennewell2436]

An interesting hypothesis. It will be recalled that like the early Merv ( Erk Gala) Baghdad was built with a round defensive wall, and that several of the readers of the Quran were also 'Persian'. Merv was also famous for its gardens and was surrounded by rivers and canals - fits well with the Qurans description of Mecca.

[@Ekim1740]

And Merv is along the silk trade route.

[@sidprice6214]

Where in the Quran is a description of Mecca given?

[@sidprice6214]

@@Ekim1740 What has "Merv" got to do with "Mecca"?

[@Ekim1740]

@@sidprice6214 because mecca is not part of any trade route as described my islamic narrative where Mohammed live.

[@berdigylychrejepbayev7503]

you dont see the merv, do you? also building circular cities were common at that time.

[@kandass1980]

wonderful episode of you both , lot of beautiful narratives

[@sidprice6214]

Good fiction always captures people.

[@Speakers154]

A fascinating episode. I remember mentioning a Buddhist link to you, Jay, a long while ago, so I looked it up. It was in an email I sent back in March, 2020: "I was investigating the sword that is featured on Abd Al-Malik's coin. Ever notice that it is straight, not curved. A straight sword is more a feature of Asian swords, whereas Arabian swords are curved. He was from Merv which was a Buddhist centre. Here is a 2500 year old sword (as an example of a sword Buddhist might carry). It would be funny if he was proclaiming his buddhist origins in plain sight." 😁 In light of what Thomas has now said, maybe there was more to it, than I thought. I think a lot henges on whether we have got this Buddhist link correct. A recent interview I did with an Alawite and an off the record interview with an ex Druze brought home to me how much Buddhist ideas can be explained as coming through Greek Neo-Platonism that was very popular in Syria. They viewed the Greek philosophers as prophets. I look forward to seeing what Thomas says on the Buddhist links to see if we can determine which it is. The other thing is Abd Al Malik "the Marwan" might also be explained by his link to the Temple Mount, Marwa, on which he built the Dome of the Rock. Lots yet to figure out. Great episode. Plenty of food for thought.

[@Wordpirate]

#SAVEMASJIDILAQSANOW NO THIRD TEMPLE ON TEMPLE MOUNT Amos 2 6 This is what the Lord says: “For three sins of Israel, even for four, I will not relent. They sell the innocent for silver, and the needy for a pair of sandals. 7 They trample on the heads of the poor as on the dust of the ground and deny justice to the oppressed. Father and son use the same girl and so profane my holy name. 8 They lie down beside every altar on garments taken in pledge. In the house of their god they drink wine taken as fines YHWH@ALLAH@AHAD TQVM SALAAM NO THIRD TEMPLE ON MOUNT MORIAH #SAVEMASJIDILAQSANOW Bismillah Surah Al-Isra, Verse 1: سُبْحَانَ الَّذِي أَسْرَىٰ بِعَبْدِهِ لَيْلًا مِّنَ الْمَسْجِدِ الْحَرَامِ إِلَى الْمَسْجِدِ الْأَقْصَى الَّذِي بَارَكْنَا حَوْلَهُ لِنُرِيَهُ مِنْ آيَاتِنَا إِنَّهُ هُوَ السَّمِيعُ الْبَصِيرُ Glory be to Him Who made His servant to go on a night from the Sacred Mosque to the remote mosque of which We have blessed the precincts, so that We may show to him some of Our signs; surely He is the Hearing, the Seeing. Surah Al-Baqara, Verse 114: وَمَنْ أَظْلَمُ مِمَّن مَّنَعَ مَسَاجِدَ اللَّهِ أَن يُذْكَرَ فِيهَا اسْمُهُ وَسَعَىٰ فِي خَرَابِهَا أُولَٰئِكَ مَا كَانَ لَهُمْ أَن يَدْخُلُوهَا إِلَّا خَائِفِينَ لَهُمْ فِي الدُّنْيَا خِزْيٌ وَلَهُمْ فِي الْآخِرَةِ عَذَابٌ عَظِيمٌ And who is more unjust than he who prevents (men) from the masjids of Allah, that His name should be remembered in them, and strives to ruin them? (As for) these, it was not proper for them that they should have entered them except in fear; they shall meet with disgrace in this world, and they shall have great chastisement in the hereafter. Surah Al-Baqara, Verse 143: وَكَذَٰلِكَ جَعَلْنَاكُمْ أُمَّةً وَسَطًا لِّتَكُونُوا شُهَدَاءَ عَلَى النَّاسِ وَيَكُونَ الرَّسُولُ عَلَيْكُمْ شَهِيدًا وَمَا جَعَلْنَا الْقِبْلَةَ الَّتِي كُنتَ عَلَيْهَا إِلَّا لِنَعْلَمَ مَن يَتَّبِعُ الرَّسُولَ مِمَّن يَنقَلِبُ عَلَىٰ عَقِبَيْهِ وَإِن كَانَتْ لَكَبِيرَةً إِلَّا عَلَى الَّذِينَ هَدَى اللَّهُ وَمَا كَانَ اللَّهُ لِيُضِيعَ إِيمَانَكُمْ إِنَّ اللَّهَ بِالنَّاسِ لَرَءُوفٌ رَّحِيمٌ And thus We have made you a medium (just) nation that you may be the bearers of witness to the people and (that) the Apostle may be a bearer of witness to you; and We did not make that which you would have to be the qiblah but that We might distinguish him who follows the Apostle from him who turns back upon his heels, and this was surely hard except for those whom Allah has guided aright; and Allah was not going to make your faith to be fruitless; most surely Allah is Affectionate, Merciful to the people. (English - Shakir) via iQuran The Zionists WILL go ahead and build Ezekiel's Temple in 2023 but not on Mount Moriah. Do not let MasjidilAqsa be destroyed. AMIIIN kzbin.info/www/bejne/nnvVi4aIj6plmNE Best Wishes to all the Save MasjidilAqsa Now activists but do it the Hallan toyiban way.

[@maxschon7709]

I wanna (again) claim that Islam might be a reaction on the plague and climate catastrophe after 536. It was groundbreaking events when half people of a cities died out.

[@gentz8310]

@Flat Sky But where is your evidence from 7th century for Mecca to prove your story? If you don't have evidence then your story is faked.

[@asifbrettishmaelmakki9]

Merv is Mary.thats a corker.

[@gentz8310]

@Flat Sky I see, Moses is uncle of Jesus in your videos. Bye

[@sarahs2197]

Thanks a lot! I knew these information as I said before, Maru is when Abdul Malik came from, and there was a road between Khurasan and Baghdad in Abbasid time, also they were from there. If you need any information I would love to provide them. As I mentioned before from Abbasid time to this time no one allowed in the Middle East to discuss anything about (Islam). Thanks again.

[@OksintasObones]

True true .. they took the geography of the north and pasted it in that Arabian desert

[@asvananda5328]

I’m very thankful that I came across your channel. I have now subscribed and look forward to more insight from those presenting and you. Amen 🙏

[@heertezeegers316]

Very interesting. SC , Mel and Murad, had an episode Merv and the origin of the Umayyads. Worthwhile to compare these two contributions to the puzzle

[@oprophetisfake9482]

Great video. Thank you brothers.

[@sandrampillay2652]

Thank you for this excellent presentation. This is awe inspiring. Keep up the good work.

[@wycliffew.woduor1748]

These revelations blow my mind. This is more than a theory since the parts fit in rather well and contrast with SIN. Am awaiting reaction form the best minds of Islam. May honesty prevail.

[@donking3540]

Quran: They desire to extinguish Allah’s Light with their mouths but Allah will perfect His Light, though the disbelievers hate it. (Surah Saff, verse 8)

[@syruseye]

@@donking3540 god protests way too much in the Quran

[@RandomMoves923]

Mary city is located 30 km away from one of the biggest archaeological excavations in Central Asia - Merv. In fact, Mary was called Merv until 1937. Merv is the most ancient city in Central Asia and one of the most ancient settlements in the world! It’s the best thing that could happen to Turkmenistan. This ancient city had existed for five centuries and managed to preserve its significance under different rulers. It had always been either the capital of an empire, or the largest city, before it was destroyed by the Mongols in 14 century. This architectural monument is included in UNESCO World Heritage List as a unique treasury of history of Central Asia.

[@AlokeshBagchi]

Mary, formerly named Merv, Meru and Alexandria Margiana, is a city on an oasis in the Karakum Desert in Turkmenistan, located on the Murgab River.

[@pankaja7974]

Jay, I am enjoying listening to this more and more. The Germans are amazing 😀

[@donking3540]

Quran: They desire to extinguish Allah’s Light with their mouths but Allah will perfect His Light, though the disbelievers hate it. (Surah Saff, verse 8)

[@glencampbell6217]

Strength for today and bright hope for tomorrow. KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK .I LOVE YOUR CHANNEL.GOD BLESS YOU ALL🙏///..

[@sagarjackie7366]

If the Hadiths like Sahih al Bukhari were written on the Silk Route city of Bukhara, it makes immense sense that the Qur'an was also written in the vicinity of the Silk Route. Even in one of the paintings shown by Mel, there were Indians in there along with the Chinese. This was expected, had been waiting for this confirmation. Thank you Thomas. If I remember correctly, even Bala had argued that both the Ummayads and the Abbasids were Central Asian not Arabs.

[@Makaidonas]

Sagar. I think it was mural that argued that point not bala bala

[@sagarjackie7366]

@@Makaidonas may be, I forget who exactly, thanks for the correction. ❤️

[@Wordpirate]

@@sagarjackie7366 SALAAM NO THIRD TEMPLE ON MOUNT MORIAH #SaveMasjidilAqsaNow ! Jihad Fisabilillah AlHaq! Bismillah Surah Al-Isra, Verse 1: سُبْحَانَ الَّذِي أَسْرَىٰ بِعَبْدِهِ لَيْلًا مِّنَ الْمَسْجِدِ الْحَرَامِ إِلَى الْمَسْجِدِ الْأَقْصَى الَّذِي بَارَكْنَا حَوْلَهُ لِنُرِيَهُ مِنْ آيَاتِنَا إِنَّهُ هُوَ السَّمِيعُ الْبَصِيرُ Glory be to Him Who made His servant to go on a night from the Sacred Mosque to the remote mosque of which We have blessed the precincts, so that We may show to him some of Our signs; surely He is the Hearing, the Seeing. Surah Al-Baqara, Verse 114: وَمَنْ أَظْلَمُ مِمَّن مَّنَعَ مَسَاجِدَ اللَّهِ أَن يُذْكَرَ فِيهَا اسْمُهُ وَسَعَىٰ فِي خَرَابِهَا أُولَٰئِكَ مَا كَانَ لَهُمْ أَن يَدْخُلُوهَا إِلَّا خَائِفِينَ لَهُمْ فِي الدُّنْيَا خِزْيٌ وَلَهُمْ فِي الْآخِرَةِ عَذَابٌ عَظِيمٌ And who is more unjust than he who prevents (men) from the masjids of Allah, that His name should be remembered in them, and strives to ruin them? (As for) these, it was not proper for them that they should have entered them except in fear; they shall meet with disgrace in this world, and they shall have great chastisement in the hereafter. The Zionists WILL go ahead and build Ezekiel's Temple in 2023 but not on Mount Moriah. Do not let MasjidilAqsa be destroyed. AMIIIN Best Wishes to all the Save MasjidilAqsa Now activists but do it the Hallan toyiban way. kzbin.info/www/bejne/nmS6apyOZbihedE

[@abubakarlukumanadamu754]

Not only Buhari, but all the authors of the other 5 books of authentic Hadiths were not Arabs

[@immortalxsoul]

All u saying is garbage

[@arwandajunior1122]

Ilove this Dr Jay and the team more fire

[@yahayamohammedawwal7801]

I join you in loving Jay and Thomas,,,we have mission ,to debunk,,,MUHAMMAD,,,,MECCA,,,AND. ISLAM,,,The, whole ,,HUMANITY must go to JESHUAH HAMACHEC for SALVATION

[@kornelia8627]

Thomas aus Deutschland? Das ist irgendwie keine Überraschung! Danke Thomas! Many thanks Dr. Jay! Your both work is very important for the world! ❤🕊

[@Mady-lo6qb]

There is a Hadith that goes, "It was narrated that Abu Bakr Siddiq said: “The Messenger of Allah told us: ‘Dajjal will emerge in a land in the east called Khorasan, and will be followed by people with faces like hammered shields.'” It is instructive to note that Marv exists in the region historically known as "Greater Khorosan." And wiki says that the word "Khorasan" means "Place where the sun arrives from." So it is possible that the Hadith is actually referencing Revelation 16:12 as the phrase "Kings of the East" is literally "Kings of the Rising of the Sun." Perhaps Petra was their Exodus gateway. And in order to preserve the memory of the location - being in exile - they built their places of worship accordingly. In respect to Buddhist influences, look up pictures of this monastery with its stupa "Fayaz-Tepe Buddhist Monastery" and you will get some idea of what is being talked about.

[@milindkulkarni4748]

Merv is place in the provincial area that was known in past 400 yrs as Khorasan. That could be the place of Birth of Quraan. Earlier that region was also known as Margiana.

[@antonwww]

Vielen Dank, Thomas!

[@dmxdmx0885]

God bless Thomas and Jay.

[@sidprice6214]

God blesses those who deserve to be blessed and curses those who make up stories.

[@rishisharma7522]

it is most compelling, keep up the good work, God bless

[@urbandsouza7279]

Be a missionary

[@donking3540]

Quran: They desire to extinguish Allah’s Light with their mouths but Allah will perfect His Light, though the disbelievers hate it. (Surah Saff, verse 8)

[@julietabraham476]

Thanks Thomas and Dr Jay, this is awesome information...finally it does make sense that the Persian influence is significant, even the Hadith writers were not Arabs.Keep up the good job.

[@donking3540]

Quran: They desire to extinguish Allah’s Light with their mouths but Allah will perfect His Light, though the disbelievers hate it. (Surah Saff, verse 8)

[@RJ-fg8kw]

Mel and Murad did a great video on the Ummayads and Abassids being Central Asians. It requires reviewing since it identifies many places named in the Quran or names associated with people associated with the Quran in that general area. They mention places like Balkh which was a stronghold of Sufis, Bhuddists and Zoroastrians. Nearby is Nava Vihara where there is a Ka'ba-like which was a typical Zoroastrian temple. The sheer number of place names associated with Quranic texts and authors is astounding. It's more than coincidence. Only in the hinterlands of Persia along the Silk Road to the east will you find these mixing influences. It is possible that the Qureish were from around Latakia, Syria and removed to those Persian hinterlands with the Arabs involved with the mass deportations over the centuries. Otherwise, they're nowhere to be found. As Thomas explained, the Hijra was their metaphorical (a word too overused but appropriate here) for their return. The pictures of those Central Asian faces on horseback now explain what happened.

[@OksintasObones]

Makes so much sense .. thanks for this

[@gregcollins7602]

This is fantastic research. Love it.

[@eliasflores1607]

Is there a way I could have the power point. This is amazing information. I have been seeing these videos and the one you did with CiRA. I just need time to go through it all but what a wonderful work all of you have and are doing. This needs to be presented everywhere.

[@highlander3243]

al Hirah and area around was the place where Abbasid compiled Koran. migrations and slave trade was common everywhere ( in Baghdad they had even Slavic people ) that is why all this info is encoded in Koran > hira cave , kufic script .etc Hira Kufa Baghdad was the centre of knowledge with Jews Syrian Christian Greek Gnostic sects and wisdom.

[@preapple]

excellent point, use of kufic script in the early manuscript...

[@orunabho]

This is most extraordinary, marvelous, this Merv origin.

[@Speakers154]

Merv-elous even! :)

[@ishtarlew598]

Considering all the high-rise buildings needing deep foundations going up around mecca, it couldn't come across any ancient holy sites.

[@sidprice6214]

What holy sites below ground would you like to see? The Kaaba is the only site and that is above ground for all to see. Maybe the Arabs should discover a Coliseum or Tower of Babel below ground just to satisfy you? Or will a pyramid do?

[@ishtarlew598]

@@sidprice6214 according to the Quran, Mecca was suppose to be the oldest city in the world, where Adam and Eve were sent but there's nothing to be found to prove that. Mecca had no water except the dumdum well for hundreds or thousands of people animals and crops. Without water, it's impossible to have a big city. Mecca is a total lie.

[@sidprice6214]

@@ishtarlew598 This is what the Quran says about Makkah: Sura 3 verse 96: "Indeed, the first House [of worship] established for mankind was that at Bakkah [i.e., Makkah] - blessed and a guidance for the worlds." - Saheeh International There is no mention of "oldest city" or "Adam and Eve". The verse does mention "first House" which means a place of worship - mosque, synagogue, church, temple. Genesis 17:4 : "You will be the father of many nations..." Genesis 17:7 "I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between ME and YOU AND YOUR DESCENDANTS after you for the generations to come to be your God and the God of your descendants after you." Genesis 17:20 "As for Ismael ... I will surely bless him...and i will make him into a great nation." Also keep in mind that the Arabs of the Arabian peninsular were essential nomadic peoples who travelled from one desert place to another. Settlements were established wherever a good supply of water was found. Over the centuries Mecca became known as a place that had a holy site ie a house of God ie the Kaabah. So many people travelled there to pay homage. It never claimed to be a great trading city off the silk road as some seem to suggest but it did claim to contain a holy site. The ZamZam well has never dried up since the time of Hagar and Ishmael according to the traditional account. Today some 3 million pilgrims travel to Mecca each year (covid aside) drink from the well and bring back bottles of its water - yet the well has still not yet dried up. You need to open your eyes and not be so closed minded if you want to understand matters. Water does not only flow in rivers above the ground - they also flow in massive quantities below the ground. Not so long ago millions of liters of crystal clear water was discovered under the Nullabor - a desert like area in southern Australia. Divers say that the water is so clear it is hard to tell up from down when swimming in it. According to scientist the Arabian peninsular was once a lush forest region that became a desert. So its not hard to compute that there must be a huge source of underground water which feeds the ZamZam well.

[@ishtarlew598]

@@sidprice6214 You can believe whatever you want about Mecca but you can never prove it as the early history of Mecca is still largely disputed, as there are no unambiguous references to it in ancient literature prior to the rise of Islam. All the available historical and archaeological evidence suggest Mecca began in around the 4th century AD when migrants from Yemen initially settled the area. by the time Muhammad was a young man, Arabian pagans were worshiping 360 idols around their Ka’aba. The archaeological record of Arabia is one of the best preserved on earth because the relatively low rainfall limited degradation of the archaeological evidence. Many ancient Arabian towns such as Yemen, Qudar, Dedan, Tiema, Mada'in Saleh (Al-Hijr), Magan (Oman) and Dilmun are well attested in the historical and archaeological record, and also attest to each other. The historical record of Arabia even includes evidence of very small Arabian towns, established before the Christian era, that came and went within a few centuries. Yet Mecca is nowhere to be found in that record. Archaeology increasingly confirms the Bible as a reliable source of ancient historical record. One can hardly excavate anywhere near Jerusalem without finding ancient artifacts. There are a million artifacts on display! Even the history of trade in the ancient Middle-East, Mecca simply was not on any major trading routes.

[@sidprice6214]

@@ishtarlew598 So i guess now archaeology is the be all and end all of the evidence that you seek. I am a bit confused at the moment - what exactly are you looking for - archaeology of the Arabs? Archaeology of Mecca? Archaeology of Islam?. You guys seem to know it all. No archaeological evidence means the rest is just made up rubbish. No consideration for the condition of the people at the time, no consideration for their sophistication, no consideration for their skills as builders etc, etc. Just nothing in the ground so its rubbish. Ok lets take a look at some of your evidence for Christianity.We have a credit card size piece of paper from about 120 to 200 AD as the earliest evidence of the New Testament. Then we dont get a full copy or near full copy of the New testament until the nineth or tenth centuries AD(according to Bart Erhman) ie 900 to 1000 years after Jesus. We have 5500 Greek manuscripts (not Hebrew or Aramaic) and none of them agree. But thats OK because we have plenty of dug up sites in the dirt to prove Christianity. So besides the pottery, cutlery and nick nacks how many church buildings have been dug up in Jerusalem from the time of Jesus? From what i know there is only one found but that is not currently confirmed. The previous one is dated some 230 AD. In Mecca too there are plenty of plates, pottery, cutlery etc found in the sand dating back to those times. Jeremy Johns "Archaeology and the History of Early Islam..." says "From as early as 643 AD coins, papyri, building inscriptions, tombstones, travellers grafitti and possibly (but probably not) a tiraz silk , were written bism Allah("in the name of Allah"), and some were dated according to a new calendar corresponding to the era of the hijra.". All the buildings of any significance is still above ground - The Kaaba, the Prophet's (PBUH) houses in Mecca and Medina, the mosques in Mecca and Medina. In addition their have his seal ring, letters to other leaders, etc but most of all we have the Quran just as it was recited each day by the Nabi during the 5 compulsory prayers, the sunnah sallah, Jumuah, Taraweeh, at funerals, social gatherings like Eid and just about anytime of the day. What more do you want? The Arabs were pretty much nomads moving from one desert place to another forming settlements from time to time. They were not farmers, big building builders, city dwellers or even bothered to mint coins. They did some trading with some of the crops they produced and used the Byzantine and Sassinid coins as bullion and not as coinage. Mecca was never promoted by Muslims as some major trading center of commerce. It was always known for its sacred site the Kaaba. It is western scholars that have made a big deal about Mecca being some sort major trading center but no where near the trade routes. The earliest historical reference to the Kaaba is found in the writings of the GREEK historian DIODORUS SICULUS about 60 BC describing it as a "Temple greatly revered by the ARABS.". So you can see there is at least one unambiguous reference in ancient literature prior to the rise of Islam. I guess this puts paid to your brilliant hypothesis of 4th century AD Mecca. Isn't it amazing - you must see something from European mouths to accept it. Look how the European has conditioned people of the world. It doesn't matter what anyone says - Indian, Mexican, Japanese, African, or even Arab - but as soon as a European says it it must be true. Why - because he wrote it down. The Arab too wrote it down but the European in cleverness just sets it aside eg John Wansbrough, Patricia Crohn and others. The Arabs also had a strong oral tradition but its no use talking about that as it cannot be dug up. Also check out the archaeological site Al-Mabiat also known as Garah (in Madina). In the 4th century, Arab geographer Al-Maqdisi described Garah as the second largest city after Makkah.

[@colvinator1611]

This is so, so interesting and fascinating. What thrills me about all this amazing work that you are all researching is that lost Muslims are going to leave Islam and turn to Christ. The so called 'scholars' of Islam have no where to hide and I hope the younger generations realise this.

[@sinholeinnarrative3345]

Many thanks for enlighten us.

[@sidprice6214]

Ignorance is bliss for the unenlightened.

[@karmacounselor]

I like the same shirts!!! Wunderbar!

[@MrChocoMoose]

This calls for archaeological research in the Marw area for corroboration. Who would fund that though?

[@sidprice6214]

Are there any high rise buildings there?

[@tarnos4153]

Excellent presentation! This may explain why most if not all hadiths come from the same area. Can’t wait to see how the “prophet” begins to appear on this narrative. Thanks!!

[@donking3540]

Quran: They desire to extinguish Allah’s Light with their mouths but Allah will perfect His Light, though the disbelievers hate it. (Surah Saff, verse 8)

[@hueym2196]

Always wondered why the method of conquest mimicted the Mongol style of terror and bind troops and descimate the enemies going door by door with surrender or die attitude.

[@fay1298]

Thank you Thomas and Dr Jay. I have to admit I have been waiting patiently for this session. So, it’s back to the Iraq theory. I can see how it makes sense that Nestorian Christians have helped write the Quran as they spoke Aramaic and there’s a lot of anti-trinity verses in the Quran. The hypothesis that the judeo-Nazarenes wrote the Quran was to recruit Arab soldiers to conquer Jerusalem and to rebuild the temple. What would be the incentive for the Nestorians, other than negating the trinitarian churches? Thank you again for all your research and efforts. Greatly appreciated.

[@TAlexander]

Sorry if I was unclear, but you seem to have misunderstood what I was trying to say. I’m not saying that the Quran was written by Nestorians, rather the opposite. It was written AGAINST Nestorians. The writes of the Quran were a splinter group which rejected the Trinity. They wrote texts that attacked Nestorianism. I also don’t believe that we need any conspiracy theories to explain the origin of the Quran. It was written just like any other sacral book, as a book from believers for believers.

[@fay1298]

@@TAlexander oh my apologies. It looks I misunderstood. I will listen to your lecture again. Thank you.

[@Wordpirate]

@@TAlexander #SAVEMASJIDILAQSANOW NO THIRD TEMPLE ON TEMPLE MOUNT Amos 2 6 This is what the Lord says: “For three sins of Israel, even for four, I will not relent. They sell the innocent for silver, and the needy for a pair of sandals. 7 They trample on the heads of the poor as on the dust of the ground and deny justice to the oppressed. Father and son use the same girl and so profane my holy name. 8 They lie down beside every altar on garments taken in pledge. In the house of their god they drink wine taken as fines YHWH@ALLAH@AHAD TQVM SALAAM NO THIRD TEMPLE ON MOUNT MORIAH #SAVEMASJIDILAQSANOW Bismillah Surah Al-Isra, Verse 1: سُبْحَانَ الَّذِي أَسْرَىٰ بِعَبْدِهِ لَيْلًا مِّنَ الْمَسْجِدِ الْحَرَامِ إِلَى الْمَسْجِدِ الْأَقْصَى الَّذِي بَارَكْنَا حَوْلَهُ لِنُرِيَهُ مِنْ آيَاتِنَا إِنَّهُ هُوَ السَّمِيعُ الْبَصِيرُ Glory be to Him Who made His servant to go on a night from the Sacred Mosque to the remote mosque of which We have blessed the precincts, so that We may show to him some of Our signs; surely He is the Hearing, the Seeing. Surah Al-Baqara, Verse 114: وَمَنْ أَظْلَمُ مِمَّن مَّنَعَ مَسَاجِدَ اللَّهِ أَن يُذْكَرَ فِيهَا اسْمُهُ وَسَعَىٰ فِي خَرَابِهَا أُولَٰئِكَ مَا كَانَ لَهُمْ أَن يَدْخُلُوهَا إِلَّا خَائِفِينَ لَهُمْ فِي الدُّنْيَا خِزْيٌ وَلَهُمْ فِي الْآخِرَةِ عَذَابٌ عَظِيمٌ And who is more unjust than he who prevents (men) from the masjids of Allah, that His name should be remembered in them, and strives to ruin them? (As for) these, it was not proper for them that they should have entered them except in fear; they shall meet with disgrace in this world, and they shall have great chastisement in the hereafter. Surah Al-Baqara, Verse 143: وَكَذَٰلِكَ جَعَلْنَاكُمْ أُمَّةً وَسَطًا لِّتَكُونُوا شُهَدَاءَ عَلَى النَّاسِ وَيَكُونَ الرَّسُولُ عَلَيْكُمْ شَهِيدًا وَمَا جَعَلْنَا الْقِبْلَةَ الَّتِي كُنتَ عَلَيْهَا إِلَّا لِنَعْلَمَ مَن يَتَّبِعُ الرَّسُولَ مِمَّن يَنقَلِبُ عَلَىٰ عَقِبَيْهِ وَإِن كَانَتْ لَكَبِيرَةً إِلَّا عَلَى الَّذِينَ هَدَى اللَّهُ وَمَا كَانَ اللَّهُ لِيُضِيعَ إِيمَانَكُمْ إِنَّ اللَّهَ بِالنَّاسِ لَرَءُوفٌ رَّحِيمٌ And thus We have made you a medium (just) nation that you may be the bearers of witness to the people and (that) the Apostle may be a bearer of witness to you; and We did not make that which you would have to be the qiblah but that We might distinguish him who follows the Apostle from him who turns back upon his heels, and this was surely hard except for those whom Allah has guided aright; and Allah was not going to make your faith to be fruitless; most surely Allah is Affectionate, Merciful to the people. (English - Shakir) via iQuran The Zionists WILL go ahead and build Ezekiel's Temple in 2023 but not on Mount Moriah. Do not let MasjidilAqsa be destroyed. AMIIIN kzbin.info/www/bejne/nnvVi4aIj6plmNE Best Wishes to all the Save MasjidilAqsa Now activists but do it the Hallan toyiban way.

[@fay1298]

@@Wordpirate you don’t need to repeat yourself every time, because nobody is reading your content. Better to write something concise and useful that people can read instead of copying and pasting irrelevant material.

[@alonzoharris6730]

@@TAlexander You claim to be an expert. But you can't even write Thomas in Arabic.🤣

[@anthonydsouza7174]

YOU GUYS ARE SIMPLY GREAT

[@paulthomas281]

This is mind-blowing stuff, because we were always led to believe in the Levantine origins of the Koran.

[@donking3540]

Quran: They desire to extinguish Allah’s Light with their mouths but Allah will perfect His Light, though the disbelievers hate it. (Surah Saff, verse 8)

[@paulthomas281]

@@donking3540 Your Qur'an is the least impressive book in existence. I really would not quote from its many contemptuous, cranky "verses" if I were you.

[@sadiqakhan277]

@@paulthomas281 seems you have read english translations of the Quran , sadly none of the translators have done a decent job .

[@zakimohammad4244]

❤Interesting. Give us more.

[@RJ-fg8kw]

I like the way the episode unfolds like detective work in which a Venn diagram is orally presented where features are included and excluded. The Central Asian (or Persian at that time) role in the place names, the hadith makers, the Abassids and Ummayads, the Silk Road, the mix of religions, etc. have caught my attention some time ago. The deportations due to conquered areas explains more. In spite of this, one can't help but be distracted by the Syro-Aramaic of the East and place names near Latakia for the Qureish. Were these people who were deported as well? The area of Shiraz would be a center of learning. Persia was definitely a mix of peoples under the Sassanids and the King Khusra commissioned refugees to do translations of Greek and Syriac texts into Pahlavi. Gondi-shapur was called the House of Wisdom and was a potential incubator for the Quran. We even have a physican companion of MHMD coming out of medical training from Gondi-Shapur. There are just too many coincidences. Thomas provided a key puzzle piece here in my opinion.

[@pfanderfilms]

Thanks RJ, this is helpful to go forward...

[@donking3540]

Quran:They desire to extinguish Allah’s Light with their mouths but Allah will perfect His Light, though the disbelievers hate it. (Surah Saff, verse 8)

[@redleaf4902]

@@pfanderfilms Jay, is there any intention to do one episode JUST on the DEPORTATIONS? With kindov a timeline thing'ee? With maps and big arrows and stuff? (like in my exegesis courses?) i.e. : the political history, so we can understand ___WHO got deported, ___WHY (particularly when religion was involved), ___HOW MANY, ___WHEN, ___FROM WHERE, ___TO WHERE? ...Am pretty busy with life. Have to wait for the weekend, to be able to sit and properly listen to each new exchange with Thomas. But since I can't wait, I've been crawling into bed, queuing ALL of the episodes in order, hit PLAY, turn out the light. The episodes keep going during the night. I hear a portion, fall asleep, wake up, catch a different portion, fall asleep again, put them on again the next night.

[@hamidhshaikh5707]

Taking rounds between the two sacred hills known as Safa and "Marve" while running on foot is a basic tradition among other rituals of Hajj without which the annual pilgrimage is regarded invalid or incomplete. Merve or Merva in Arabic and Persian languages is pronounced in same manner. Long ago Murad and Mel pointed it out that the hill in Mecca might be named after the city name "Merv" and the running between the hills symbolizes to commemorate the migrations and the displacements. All research tracks taken independently by English, French, German, Indian, and other scholars converge on same conclusion that Islam's birthplace is not Mecca and Madina. Thank you Dr. J for bringing worthy scholars and their great research work to the fore. God bless you and your brilliant team. Amen.

[@sidprice6214]

How did Marwa or Murwa or Maarwa become "Marve" or "Merv"? Just making things up doesn't mean that its actually so. Playing "make belief" is not reality. We used to play "make belief" as kids - "cowboys and indians", "GI's versus the Jerries" etc The fact that these different scholars are coming up with different locations should tell you something especially since they are instructed to remove Mecca and Medina from their starting point and conclusion. Now for another problem. There are many more western scholars that confirm Mecca and Medina. What say you about that?

[@OksintasObones]

Safa and marwa are located in Jerusalem safay and muraya

[@afahvetnam9510]

This wonderful discovery certainly deserve a much bigger audience,perhaps to the 1.6 billion muslims all over the world.

[@donking3540]

Quran: They desire to extinguish Allah’s Light with their mouths but Allah will perfect His Light, though the disbelievers hate it. (Surah Saff, verse 8) 1

[@ast3663]

interesting..I wished that slide 5 (with the overview of different religion roots) was clearer..or even a whole episode, would be great.

[@TAlexander]

We will come back to that slide after looking at the anti-Trinitarian Christian origins of the Quran in more detail. Hopefully it becomes clearer then.

[@mikkelhansen9419]

Remember the mother of Marwan name was Amina, and Marwan had wifes with the name Zaynab and Aisha.

[@trinitymatrix9719]

I thought it would not be possible to find any more holes in islam. It seems I was very wrong.

[@redleaf4902]

NO HOLES. Rather, there is FILLING-IN of history. Sarcasm and sneering is unChristian.

[@TheUnique69able]

Jesus didn’t exist

[@sgt.grinch3299]

This makes perfect sense. God bless Thomas and Dr. Jay and everyone involved with the research.

[@donking3540]

Quran: They desire to extinguish Allah’s Light with their mouths but Allah will perfect His Light, though the disbelievers hate it. (Surah Saff, verse 8)

[@tomobrien5795]

@@donking3540 Jesus is THE LIGHT OF THE WORLD (Gospel of John chapter 8 verses 12-18). The ‘light of Allah’ will be extinguished by the realisation that ‘without lies Islam dies’, and the recognition that Jesus and not Allah is God. God is revealing who Jesus is to many Muslims, often in dreams and visions. Baruch haba B’shem Adonai (Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord).

[@sidprice6214]

There is a big difference between research and make belief. Some people make up stories and call it "research" while those with little understanding then accept these made up stories without realizing that they have been had.

[@rafamariamd3317]

Right for Imam Bukhari to be Uzbek. Makes sense now.

[@davidmcintosh3468]

Well done! Super -interesting! God bless you all!

[@donking3540]

Quran: They desire to extinguish Allah’s Light with their mouths but Allah will perfect His Light, though the disbelievers hate it. (Surah Saff, verse 8)

[@orunabho]

One thing Thomas and Jay. I am reading the 3 volume Arabian Nights stories again, Penguin Classics, translated by Malcolm Lyons. There is a story where the Caliph Abd Al Malik ibn Marwan was a character. And he had a sister named Dahiya, in the story. But Dahiya is a central Asian name. There are people even in North West India, Punjab area, where this name is common, non Muslims of course, possibly of central Asian decent. So, can it be that the Ummayad were ethnic central Asians? Not Arabs. The stories talks about Arab Bedouins, mercenaries (Mamluks=)Turks?), African slaves and other people. Setup looks almost all are central Asian. Ruling class are all pale skinned, not the brown skinned people like the Arab Bedouins or Egyptian or Indians. Wine drinking and singing people. All all the Caliphs were titled always "Commander of the Faithful" These stories and other such secular stuffs may prove useful.

[@sleeexs]

Are you saying they are wuxia stories?

[@sidprice6214]

While you're at it why not just transport the whole story to Siberia?

[@sidprice6214]

fables upon fables.

[@gerrykas1795]

@@sidprice6214 Or better still, you come up with concrete evidence of hijazi origin of koran and Islam? I am sure that would be easy for you? Just a couple after actual digs in and around Mecca that conclusively provide proof? Otherwise, your numerous interjections are quite INFANTILE!

[@sidprice6214]

@@gerrykas1795 I don't have to as the evidence has already well and truly been documented. If you but took the time to do some proper reading you will exercise your brain and learn somethings instead of listening to b/s artists like Jay. Since it is obvious that your knowledge of the Quran and Islam is so limited i should point out that just digging holes in the ground is not the be all and end all of providing proof. Since this is the game you want play why don't you ask all the other nations to dig holes in the ground and provide proof of their history. You can start with the Eskimos or the African tribes. Better still why don't you ask the other religions such as Christianity to dig a hole in the ground and provide the bones of Jesus (PBUH). A friend said this to me: "To those with understanding no explanation is necessary. To those without understanding no explanation is possible."

[@collybever]

Very interesting presentation, great work, Thomas, great hosting by Jay ... How will this view that Thomas reveals to us, explain the documented attack on Jerusalem in the 630s, there also being evidence of a crude temple built on the Temple Mount? Odon's view does explain that quite well, in terms of a strange alliance between 2 groups and its collapse after the failure of an imminent expectation of the Messiah's return, surah 9 coming from the time of the angry and unpleasant breakup iirc. Jerusalem has also been suggested as the original hajj origin, with Mount Moria being called Marwah in Arabic and Mount Scopus having another name as Safa in Josephus' Antiquities of the Jews.

[@ralphkrattli6607]

Interesting line of thoughts … especially Merwan pointing towards Merv is convincing. Did Thomas considered the many Nestorian sits along the asian side of the Gulf of Aqaba, in today’s northern Saudi? There is enough evidence that at the time Christians and Jews lived in the Hedjaz too.

[@skxyz2162]

I think more studies has to be done on the islamic paintings presented by Mel.

[@sidprice6214]

You can do as much studies as you like but it won't stupidity.

[@comentedonakeyboard]

Turkmenistan?🤯 Wow! That blew me of my feet.👍

[@palsshin]

Thomas, briliant analysis

[@Richard_Rz]

This is Earth shattering, the fallout will be felt for many years.

[@aou6499]

Merv, turkm... does show on Google earth. Great episode, great landmark work...

[@user-yz1dl3eu8l]

4:00 1) Yes. 2, 3) not necessarily. 5) The text had to be deciphered as he has not dots and vowels. Plus we do not know the state of the Arabic language in the 6-7th c. Merv: Merv is an interesting insight but we do not have more historical indications about it.

[@asdsad7476]

It is not out of mind that two main hadiths books Sahih Muslim and Sahaih Bukhari that their writers are from Great khorasan. Not only those two writers of Hadith books but most of Islamic great scholars including ghazzaly and others are from khorasan. Moreover, most historical events of Islam occured from khorasan in the most east and Damascus in the most west. However, the origin of Islam is from Arabian peninsula deserts but influenced by many other legends and myths from all over the world of that time.

[@donking3540]

Quran: They desire to extinguish Allah’s Light with their mouths but Allah will perfect His Light, though the disbelievers hate it. (Surah Saff, verse 8)

[@nerdforlife6544]

So so helpful!!’ Thanks!!

[@donking3540]

Quran: They desire to extinguish Allah’s Light with their mouths but Allah will perfect His Light, though the disbelievers hate it. (Surah Saff, verse 8) 1

[@toddbeamer6131]

Thomas, can you identify when and why the Dhul Quarnayn myth was added?

[@sykopath4785]

is this about alexander the gay

[@TAlexander]

Here I can only speculate. What we know: 1) We know that it is taken straight from the early medieval Alexander Romance 2) It all goes back to the Antiquity. Shortly after Alexander’s death, these stories appear. 3) The story evolves. Later versions were extremely popular among Christians. The narrative sort of Christianises Alexander 4) The Aramaic version has a peculiar story where the story of Gog and Magog from the Book of Revelation was woven into the Alexander Romance 5) The Quran copies that particular story about Gog and Magog from the Aramaic text Conclusions: 1) This fits perfectly with the idea of an origin of the Quran in Aramaic Christianity 2) This story was probably among the early texts that were collected. It sounds like a Syrian preacher using the popular Alexander Romance as a vehicle to teach about the end times as described in the Book of Revelations. 3) The story was never intended to be understood as a sacred text. It was merely a way of teaching sacred scripture. Since the Quran starts out as lectionary, this also makes sense. The Quran was not sacred scripture, it was a tool to communicate sacred scripture, to explain it and make it accessible.

[@toddbeamer6131]

@@TAlexander Thanks. That makes sense.

[@asifbrettishmaelmakki9]

I don't think Dul qarnain story is fake.evidence is it the mysterious Greenland object and Dul qarnain is bad guy.

[@alonzoharris6730]

@@TAlexander The Quran didn't copy. The Aramaic text was copied from later muslim commentaries on the Quran. The Syriac text was written much later. It contains events that happened long after the Quran.

[@Makaidonas]

Well that solves a problem. How did the Turkic tribes become Muslim.

[@yakovmatityahu]

So Basically Quranic hero is Jesus not Muhammed...Intresting...Thank you Jay and Thomas

[@sidprice6214]

If they keep at it you will see the real hero is Santa Claus. We have moved from Petra to Merv en route to Mongolia, followed by Siberia and finally to the North Pole where Santa Claus resides.

[@aqe7914]

Hello from Turkmenistan, to this day Mary has one of the most enterpreneurial, vibrant and extremely high spirit people. In regards to origins of Quran…this is comitted to memory from day 1 and preserved in memories of people and very strict rules apply to preservations. I personally visit regularly tombs of companions buried in Mary, Burayda ibn Aslam, and Hakem Al Ghifari, same Quran taught and menorized across islamic empire, nice try though :) greetings to you all. This was entertaining

[@yakovmatityahu]

Are you really from Turkmenistan?? How far is your home from Merv?

[@albertpurification9413]

I told long before that Islam developed from rebelling christian like protestant did ..Protestant did not change the bible but muslim changed by the influence of the empire where necessary .

[@charlesiragui2473]

Fascinating explanation of Buddhism's apparent source for parts of Islam. This location in remote Merv leads directly to the question of transmission and Thomas's quick reference to Hijra. 7th Century coins seems to point away from the SIN but the appearance of Islamic calendar dates on some of them points to some epochal event in the year AD 622, such that the followers of the Quran began measuring time from this date. Does the German school have an answer for what this event might be?

[@TAlexander]

Yes 😉

[@TAlexander]

I’ll get into it in the upcoming video.

[@charlesiragui2473]

@@TAlexander I’m looking forward to it! 👍

[@michaels4255]

Heraclius launched his great counter offensive against the Sassanid Persians that year, which supposedly included a famous victory at the Battle of Issus that year which Muhammad allegedly prophesied that Heraclius would win. However, modern historians debate whether the battle actually took place. Also in 622 according to the Standard Islamic Narrative, Nehemiah ben Hushiel's brother, Shallum/Zalman/Solomon ben Hushiel (called my Muslims "al Farsi," the Farsi or Persian, although as a brother of Nehemiah's he actually would have been a Persianized Jewish ally of the Persians) visited Muhammad at Medina and converted to Islam. Heraclius's 622 campaign would eventually lead to the recapture of the True Cross from the Persians in 628, which is still celebrated every year in the Eastern Orthodox Churches, and the recapture of Jerusalem from the Persians' upstart Jewish allies in 629, with Heraclius giving the rebellion prone Jews a choice of either converting to Orthodox (Chalcedonian) Christianity which was observed by the Romans (and no distinction existed at this date between Orthodoxy and Catholicism) or leaving the Empire. Many of them left the empire (there was already a major Jewish presence in the Fertile Crescent), and some of them may have ended up just next door in Nabataea where they may have instigated the pan monotheistic movement that would, 8 years later in 637, lead to the reconquest of Jerusalem by Umar or Omar (a Persian name) the Conqueror, who took the title MHMD, following which the new rulers would do what Nehemiah ben Hushiel did not live long enough to do: build a major house of worship on the Temple Mount, which may have originally been intended by some in the movement to be the Third Temple.

[@charlesiragui2473]

@@michaels4255 Interesting compilation. But are you suggesting that the early followers of the Quran set their clocks by the year the trinitarian Christian emperor invaded the Zoroastrian empire? Hard to see why they’d be celebrating that. Maybe because they saw it as the first step in their own victory over both?

[@AustinOKeeffe]

If the Ummayad centre of control was Damascus and historians tell us Abdul Malik also reigned from there, isn't it reasonable to assume that he compiled the Quran while in power and so this would mean it was compiled in Damascus?

[@Speakers154]

Yes, I agree. I don't think Merv is where it was compiled but maybe he brought his Merv influences into play in Damascus.

[@ASHORSHEMAYA]

Traditional Islamic stories claim that the Quran was sent by Uthman ibn Affan to Damascus, Damascus, at no time containing the Quran from the first era of Islam.

[@alonzoharris6730]

@@ASHORSHEMAYA It's already proven. The Hijazi dialect of the Quran is also proven. The Quran is sent from the Hijaz as all Quranic manuscripts prove.

[@Speakers154]

@@alonzoharris6730 Clown. That it is called "hijazi" is just a convention and means nothing.

[@billshepherd5090]

@@alonzoharris6730 you like to make big claims without any proof. Show me ONE stick, bone, scrap of papyrus with any writing from the 7th century. How about ONE Uthmanic kango-ran? You have nothing and believe in nothing but an idol. Answer a simple question for me. How do you know that you are going to heaven when morhammered didn’t know if he was? S46.9 nor do I know what will be done with me or with you How will you get to paradise?

[@RJ-fg8kw]

The religious trends on a timeline with influence lines feeding one another is well conceived. It ought to be compared or combined with Odon LaFontaines own schematic as to who was who.

[@tommynoblethecouncilofheav4657]

Intriguing

[@houtmansimanjuntak3600]

Thank you Thomas for your discovery. This is another eye opener to so many people in Indonedia to get to understand the cult of islam.👍🙏

[@sidprice6214]

You should not use words that you don't understand like "cult".

[@Xargxes]

Danke schön! I guess I'm just extremely interested in knowing how the Germans deal with Odon's views and Gibson's qibla research... Do the Germans think the qiblas were pointed at Jerusalem not Petra? And what about the Quranic "Becca", laying in a valley with a stream running through it, near Loth's pillar of salt and olive trees etc....? Doesn't seem to fit Merv at all. When and where was this Quranic description of "Becca" being written?

[@TAlexander]

I think it’s safe to assume that Jerusalem was the the focal point of the early Quranic movement. As for Bacca, Christoph Luxenberg has looked at its Aramaic root and found that it simply means “sacred place”. It could be anywhere. There is certainly no reason to equate it with Mecca.

[@Xargxes]

@@TAlexander Thanks for your response! Obviously Bacca does not refer to Mecca, I was referring to Dan Gibson who points out that Petra fits the description extremely well, almost perfectly. Especially Loth's pillar of salt being so nearby is extraordinary... But consensus in Germany seems to be that it does not even have to signify a physical place but that it could mean anything, even some heavenly place?

[@TAlexander]

@@Xargxes From what I can tell, the People of Inarah are not too bothered by Bacca in general. The way I understand Luxenberg, it’s an earthly place, but it’s just some kind of nondescript holy district which would be near a sanctuary.

[@donking3540]

Quran: They desire to extinguish Allah’s Light with their mouths but Allah will perfect His Light, though the disbelievers hate it. (Surah Saff, verse 8)

[@ConservativeArabNet]

It should be watched by 100000 k

[@billmcreynolds6935]

Perhaps the "y" in Mary is the Cyrillic character "y," which is pronounced "oo." This would make the name closer to Marw/Marv.

[@TAlexander]

Yes, the pronunciation has always been Marw, anglicised to Merv.

[@michaels4255]

I googled this and apparently the name Mary is correct. The Keraites (various spellings in English), who are a Turko - Mongol tribe (some question as to which, the language groups are closely related according to some Russian scholars) converted to Nestorian Christianity and originated a tradition that the body of Mary is buried in Merv (a city that has had several names in its long history), thus the city was renamed Mary. Of course, the name Mary also has a few different spellings and pronunciations in different languages.

[@sidprice6214]

Or maybe Mars.

[@maxschon7709]

Great BUT are we sure that ALL of Quran comes from ONE Place and on ONE time? Didn't Odon Lafountaine showed very well that there a lot of later interference come into the text?

[@toddbeamer6131]

I think the slide at 13:31 makes it clear it was an long, complex process that began in the mid-6th century was not finished until the 10th or 11th century. They started with a core text of christian lectionary material, then borrowed other texts to work them in, etc. Not one place, one time.

[@pfanderfilms]

Max, Thomas has never said that it was entirely from one place, or from even one source, or even that the entire Qur'an is from lectionaries and hymns. He has said that the core of the Qur'an, even possibly the majority of it, are from these sources, written centuries earlier, and that later Muslim authors borrowed and also added to it, deleting certain parts of it, while adding others, to make it more Islamic. A good example is Surah 23 where the earlier Christian prayer about the duties of the believer (verses 1-5) is suddenly interjected in verse 6 (when referring to Chastity), with a later and perverted Muslim exception permitting sex slaves, and then continues as before from verses 7-11 with the rewards in Paradise for those who follows these duties. Verse 6 is clearly a later Muslim addition which destroys an otherwise beautiful prayer on the purity and rewards of the believers.

[@yahayamohammedawwal7801]

I have studied the Quran for the past 50 years,,I can assure that 25----30 percent of the Quran is taken from very well known,sources,,,Jewish Christian,, Zoroastrian,,etc There are texts, that. are lifted from earlier, records , check the contradictions ,,errors, scientific,,and common sense wise,,the whole book should be thrown away as rubbish,,,Come Home to THE MESSIAH THE SAVIOR OF HUMANITY,,,for your SALVATION, . . .

[@maxschon7709]

@@pfanderfilms Many sources, many writers, many editors - NOT a single book with came perfectly out from heaven.

[@alonzoharris6730]

@@pfanderfilms Concubines are in your bible. It's permitted in your bible.

[@barnettronald230]

I'm waiting to hear more on the German interpretation of the origins of the Qur'an. It's too early to reach conclusions but I feel there is perhaps a little too much speculation presented as established fact which does not take into account already well-established evidence. With new evidence and theories being presented so quickly it looks as if we are starting to work at cross-purposes. I'm reminded of Homeric scholarship which resulted in completely different "schools" of interpretation which resulted in diametrically opposed views on the interpretation of practically every line of Homeric Greek. This is beginning to sound familliar. I think we need to take a step back and try to coordinate some of these laudable efforts to fiind the origins of Islam. For example, I can see some problems with Luxenberg's methodology and its application (the placing of the diacritical marks, for example). Thomas gave an excellent presentation and as scholars we have to take into account all new evidence. But if we end up with half a dozen different "schools" of interpretation of the origins of Islam and the Qur'an we lose credibility. Just a thought. Best wishes to everybody.

[@mutamirmukhzani1240]

Jay's objective is not academic. He couldn't care less what the actual history is. His whole schlock is about to disprove Islam any way possible. You're better off researching yourself

[@sheikhboyardee556]

@@mutamirmukhzani1240 Present rebuttal to what is said. Don't just attack those you disagree with. That makes it look like you have no answer for what is in the video.

[@JacobAdewumi]

@@mutamirmukhzani1240 According to Christoph Luxenberg's Syro-Aramaic reading of the Koran, "For more than a millennium Aramaic was the lingua franca in the entire Middle Eastern region before being gradually displaced by Arabic beginning in the 7th century." (Page 10) • This suggests that Aramaic was the most important written and cu1tural language in the region. Records also indicate that Aramaic was the language of Christianized Arabs, and that a large proportion of them took part in the Christian Syrian liturgy. • Since Arabic was not a written language by this time, its stands to reason that what we call Koran today is a collection of liturgies and teachings of Christianize Arabs, which was later compiled and redacted to fit the political and religious agenda of early Arab rulers in the 8th -10th century. • There is no denying the fact what we call Koran today was borrowed from existing Syro-Aramaic sources, indicating that the Koran in its original form was something quite different from what Muslims have always taken it to be. • Even the word Qur'an(al-furqan) come from the Syriac, in which language it refers to a liturgical reading from (Jewish and Christian) scripture, a lectionary. • Arthur Jeffery wrote in 1938 that “not only the greater part of the religious vocabulary, but also most of the cultural vocabulary of the Quran is of non-Arabic origin." On close examination, the Qur'an itself betrays evidence of having been adapted from a Christian text. • Muhammad as an historical figure, did not exist. From historical records, it is clear that there was no Arab prophet named Muhammad anywhere near Mecca. • The records indicate that if there was a Muhammad, he was not in Mecca and didn't preach anything that closely resembles Islam-until long after his death, when his biography and holy book as we know them began to be constructed by the Umayyads and the Abbasids. • In essence, Islam is nothing but a forged religion ,and Muslims can no longer support their (vile) claims with any historical evidences from the 6th century. • Given all these evidence, I invite You to render your life to Jesus, and accept Him as your personal Lord and Saviour. JESUS IS LORD!!!

[@michaels4255]

I agree it doesn't look like a slam dunk at this point, but it does sound plausible and not easily excluded. It's one of the puzzle pieces lying on the table.

[@donking3540]

Quran: They desire to extinguish Allah’s Light with their mouths but Allah will perfect His Light, though the disbelievers hate it. (Surah Saff, verse 8)

[@gnosticquran]

Imagine the archeologists will find proto-quran in the Merv, it would be the death blow to abbasid religion.

[@officercrown]

The kingdom of Jesus is not of this world. He needs no defence. His truth will be… forevermore. Jesus is Lord

[@achimwollmershauser8328]

Maybe Dan Gibson could try to find out if the qiblas would also fit Merv?

[@alonzoharris6730]

Gibson has been debunked. He got exposed for forging data.

[@achimwollmershauser8328]

@@alonzoharris6730 It might be the case that there are some inaccuracies, which Mel has pointed out. But the basic finding of early qiblas certainly not fitting Mekka still stands.

[@alonzoharris6730]

@@achimwollmershauser8328 That's based on your modern understanding of coordinates. His theory can be debunked easily. He claims that they could measure exact according to modern coordinates. If this was true then all mosques would have the exact same qibla and there shouldn't be any deviation between them. This is not the case. It's also based on a presupposition that the mosque must face Mecca exactly instead of just east. He hasn't done any research how these people determined the Qibla for each and every mosque. He is just trying to fit everything in his Petra theory. The Ayla Mosque 70 miles from Petra doesn't point to Petra but south. Petra is north. This mosque is from 650. He ignored scholarship and just made up a northern wall as a qibla with no evidence. This mosque debunked his whole theory.

[@achimwollmershauser8328]

@@alonzoharris6730 It could be that in the early stages of "Proto-Islam" there wasn't a unified "canonical" qibla direction yet, depending on the emphasis of the particular strand of the the movement.

[@Speakers154]

@@alonzoharris6730 Actually the Ayla mosque, neither points to Petra or south but southwest. Mecca is southeast, so that's quite a hole in the SIN. I'm sure you know that already but you are defending a faith and not interested in getting to the truth.

[@3DGhost]

Jay's videos are all over the place, one day a video says Mecca is Petra, one day Jerusalem, one day Marv! one day Quran originated from Mars probably?!

[@oxytocin1989]

I think this needs to be reconciled with Gibson. There must be a link to the Ghassanids somewhere.

[@lainfamia8949]

مروان In arabic marwan In persian the pronuntiation would be "Mervan". So nothing more to say.

[@aevumcorvi2108]

The fact that within a single narrative ecosystem, a lot of different proposals could be deduced speaks about what kind of narrative is being studied. The Narrative's Place = Jerusalem | Petra | Mecca | Environs of Edessa | Mary | What's next to be discovered?

[@yahayamohammedawwal7801]

Nobody can talk of Quran coming from Heaven,,,It was coined here by some people,,copying from left and right,,It cannot be compared to Old and New Testament,,,where The Living GOD told EVE that from her ONE will come to bruise the head serpent,,,SATAN,,,the Narrative through ABRAHAM ISAAC AND JACOB ,,,MOSES ,,,to DAVID. ,,,doan to MARY,,,and the birth of THE MESSIAH ,,,who can trace the lineage Muhammad to Ishmael who at least followed the steps of ABRAHAM. and not a nabatean pagan god,,ILHA,,changed to Allah,,,an idol,,,along with Dushara,,Nargal SIN, Shuball,,,so if you elevate one idol abo've the other,,,they are. all the same,,,arabian gods,,,,,,the ABBASSIADS created islam and used the sword to conquer empires,,no SALVATION there,,COME to JESHUAH for the gift of eternal life,,,

[@sidprice6214]

Judging by the trajectory i would say that we are headed to southern Mongolia, followed by Siberia and onto the North Pole to tie up with Santa Claus and Christianity.

[@preapple]

I still think its Hira. It meets all the requirements that your guest Tomas lists - Christians, Zoroastrians, Jewish seminaries and kufic script and all...All Hajjaj is the distributor of the Quran to Umayyad provinces in the 690's. One of them being Merv. Could the Ebionites be the Nazarene Jews that Odon talks about?

[@TAlexander]

The way I understand Odon, that’s how he interprets it (though he will have to confirm). While I agree with Odon 95% of the way, I believe his interpretation of the Nazarenes is too complicated and hence not likely. Also because these messianic Jews were virtually extinct by that time. For me, the simplest explanation is that the Nazarenes in the Quran simply refer to Nestorians. That reading makes a lot more sense to me when looking at the relevant verses. Also, we know that the Nestorians called themselves Nazarenes. They were certainly not the only group called that, but the relevant one in the context of the origins of the Quran.

[@preapple]

@@TAlexander the natural ally of the muslims were monophysites/arians not nestorians. Possibly located in al-Hirah. Scholars are justified in their claim that Monophysites from Syria and Yemen-Ethiopia, as well as Nestorians from the Persian Gulf, proselytized the peripheries of Arabia and came to exert some influence upon its very heartland. However, other scholars are equally justified in claiming that many Near Eastern audiences, including the Arabians of the Hijāz were-based on common understandings of monotheism popularized by Judaism, rising national consciousness, and persecution at the hands of Byzantium-more pre-disposed to Monophysite Christianity with its simple unitary view of Christ’s nature. Many scholars hint at the possibility that heretical Jewish-Christian sects like the Ebionites-Elchasaites and Nazorean-Essenes, dualist sects including Marcionites and Manichaeans, Gnostics and other ill-defined groups played a significant role in the development of the Qur’ān. More recently, some scholars have given some credence to this possibility arguing that the mushrikūn were not crude pagans or polytheists as tradition has it, but rather monotheists whose cult was too accommodating for the strict monotheism of Islam.

[@ksimongeorge5020]

Will this discussion be available in Indian regional languages? Please try.

[@yakovmatityahu]

I will make it in Hindi language soon,plz subscribe my channel

[@emongral]

Wow, so Interesting

[@lufiasila]

Interesting

[@simonhengle8316]

A Great Video, and again lots to take in, thank you Thomas. Dr. Jay Smith, I thought Mary was near the old Merv?

[@pfanderfilms]

Yes, it's right next door

[@sidprice6214]

Story telling usually makes most humans feel "great".

[@simonhengle8316]

@@sidprice6214 You sound like an alien looking on

[@mikejohnson5059]

Didn't Mark Twain aka Samuel Clemons write Huck Finn and Tom Sawyer in New England yet the settings of the books was in Mid west? Also are their Merv architecture features in the Dome of rock buildings?