So you wanna put guns in your D&D5e game

[@Zedrinbot]

ey I replied to comments, for that vid check here! kzbin.info/www/bejne/iJiXqX1jjtGcfdE edit: Just to summarize some points people keep bringing up that are also mentioned in the response video: This video covered multiple approaches because no one approach is going to work for every table or will adequately capture every single type of theming that exists. It's more meant to get you thinking about how design decisions impact both the fantasy you want and the mechanical balance, picking and choosing what aspects of realism and gameplay best fit your goals. "This is the best way to implement firearms" couldn't be further from the goal of this video. I also re-recorded for it 4 times because I kept being unsatisfied with my points and kept starting over, so there's some things that I missed or omitted or ran out of space for. -"Just play [Other system]" Systems that already have good firearm rules don't *need* a video like this. 5e kinda does need help though. It's disingenuous to suggest people to learn an entirely new system or move their games to another system entirely just for the sake of one facet of equipment. Trying new systems can be worthwhile but dismissively suggesting it like that does far more harm than good. (I should know, I've played plenty of pathfinder 1 and 2 and know firsthand how evangelical its fans can be, despite how much of a different experience Pathfinder offers over 5e.) -"Guns weren't all that lethal" Yeah, but I'm referring to the kind of fantasy people want to implement. Games are an abstraction of reality, so trying to quantify damage like that is kinda moot. No human can survive 40 sword stabs anywhere near as effectively as your adventurer can, for comparison. "High damage, limited use mcguffins" for firearms for instance are _mechanical_ decisions that are meant to embody certain elements that people often want to capture and encourage specific kinds of gameplay. Likewise if you want your guns more reasonable like other weapons, then you tool their strength to give them parity and optionally give them some unique interactions, as described in the latter half of the video. (I personally prefer the latter option, but there's definitely merit in the mcguffin approach.)

[@user-sv5kt8qz3v]

first repyl

[@tommothedog]

Guns arent that lethal.

[@Rundvelt]

If you really want to use firearms in D&D, you're going to have to consider using a different system to keep it balanced. Unfortunately, it's silly to compare the damage of an arrow or sling pellet to a firearm, it's just not going to work. Core Concepts: A) Firearms are precision weapons and should reflect this. B) Firearms should be bulky and difficult to use when in close combat. C) They should be difficult to reload during combat. How do we build in firearms to D&D then? 1) We need to think of a firearm's damage not based on the slug, but rather the shot placement. For this reason, the damage of a firearm should be directly proportional to the hit roll for the weapon. This means that there SHOULD BE NO CRITICAL HITS. It's precision only. 2) We need to penalize damage based on the distance to the target. Anyone who's shot a firearm can tell you that while you can HIT something that's a good 60 yards away, hitting it in a good spot is sketchy at best, especially if it's moving. 3) We need to make reloading a move action equivalent. The shooter must be planted and unable to move to use their weapon optimally. So, let's take a look at a weapon profile that someone may use! Rifle - 30/60 Hit: 1d20 + Dex Damage: Hit Roll - Targets AC Reload: Move Action Special: You may not shoot the rifle at a target that threatens your square. What does this mean? Well, if you have a Dex of 18, roll a nat 20 and are shooting a Goblin with AC 2, you're gonna hit it for 18. Pretty nice. However, if you're shooting an Orc, with the same character and roll a 12, you're going to be doing 6 points of damage. This means that firearms rarely miss, which is how it should be, but it may not hit the sweet spot you're looking for. Now, you can play with the rules, however this is a far more interesting, unique and fairly easy way to incorporate firearms into your campaign. That's my off the cuff explanation.

[@jmd9402]

I know you already did your response to comments but I just thought of this idea recently and I wanted to ask someone about it. If you make a full auto machine gun, give it multiple extra attacks when in use, that way you could simulate rapid fire in a turn base game. this is probably a bad idea that ruins balance but I thought I'd give the idea

[@higueraft571]

Gonna be real... That concept for "shitloads of damage in one turn, otherwise useless after" would be PERFECT for a Pirate PC. Have 4-6 pistols strapped to your chest, fire them off one after the other (if any of them dont fire, oh well), then draw steel and get in close...

[@inquisitorkobold6037]

There's an old saying. "If you want to train a man to use a bow, start with his grandfather. If you want to train him to use a musket, start Tuesday." Guns became popular because they were significantly easier to use than bows were, and also tend to have much greater range.

[@Zedrinbot]

man that's a good quote.

[@NevisYsbryd]

Well, they developed a longer range. Early firearms lost half of their power at like sixty feet of travel distance.

[@AlbinoAxolotl1993]

Same with crossbows.

[@inquisitorkobold6037]

@@AlbinoAxolotl1993 Crossbows have other issues, like requiring a cocking aid such as a crank or lever to reload with any reasonable speed.

[@redstonewarrior0152]

@@inquisitorkobold6037 You can hold the crossbow down with one foot while you pull the string back and set it with your hands.

[@DarkTruth666]

Guns being lethal always suffers from 1 major misconception. You are not your character. You are a commoner, with 4hp. So something that does 1d10 damage, will on average kill your ass dead. So the idea of making them 'realistic' would mean addressing the fact that some characters could face tank a nuke and then regenerate that damage over a cup of tea.

[@pinguin4898]

people forget that HP in dnd isn't just physical wellbeing but also mental fortitude and straight up stamina, it could be just narrowly dodging a bullet before it hits you, it could be getting talked down to by a bard and lying on the floor crying, it could be just barely getting nicked by an arrow in the neck and the adrenaline keeping you going. don't think that a gun will always be lethal, legit bears irl can take a bullet to the forehead and keep shambling your way

[@bankasai3120]

@@pinguin4898 Poison, Fall Damage, AoE Damage, and damage weaknesses DO NOT work with this kind of thought process. Plus, Meat Points is accurate to real life anyways, the shit people survive and stay conscious through would surprise you: stuff like having a railroad spike go through your skull, getting shot _sixteen_ times, and my personal favorite, getting struck by lightning ing three times in one minute. These are all things that people not only have survived, but stayed conscious and functional through EDIT: I feel I should clarify, by 'this' thought process I mean the 'near miss' arguments you see all over the internet. Not exactly what you said, but I see it often enough that I always feel the need to point it out

[@mrosskne]

Have you tried not playing garbage systems for idiots?

[@mrosskne]

@@bankasai3120 Every damage type you listed works with that thought process.

[@pinguin4898]

@@bankasai3120 I didn't exclude meat points from possibilities, besides, poison and aoe is likely about your pain tolerance as well

[@oxybe]

"Firearms and Kevlar doesn't belong in D&D" You're right. Let's all use laser blasters and power armour instead, as our 1e Barrier Peak ancestors intended.

[@orrorsaness5942]

😂 Lmao

[@foxyreads]

I love that module

[@Stavol2Dual]

Its true use magic for railguns

[@milktenders6219]

For the Emperor, for mankind

[@getthegoons]

I wish freaky SciFi stuff showed up more in modern dnd..

[@VechsDavion]

Hot take on shotguns: SPREAD: This weapon deals double normal damage to creatures that are Swarms, and damage dealt to creatures that are Swarms cannot be reduced by resistances.

[@Zedrinbot]

I like that idea, that's super specific and niche but it's unique. I'd say limit it to 2x damage though, just cause 3x will quickly trivialize any swarms, and 5e doesn't use '3x' boosts anywhere else.

[@TheSpookiestSkeleton]

veches

[@KoishiVibin]

@@Zedrinbot Shotgun Mastery as a Feat Use your entire magazine to attack a projectile! If you can cast magic then you can shoot down fireball like some sorta demented flak cannon. works against an area of projectiles. maybe have your dex bonusin there somehwere

[@prophetcarason]

Woah, I watched the shit out of you like 8-10 years ago back in middle school, I remember semi-recently seeing that you were into roleplaying games but didn't expect to see you here. Glad you're still active man, watching super hostile stuff as a kid is a great memory.

[@himedo1512]

But that wouldn't really do much considering the effective range of a shotgun is 30-50 yards before spread has a notable effect. In DND terms this is 18-30 5ft tiles. It would be fairly uncommon for you to be fighting swarms or what so be it at more than 30 tiles away

[@yomejjuan]

I always wanted to run a Fantasy, old west campaign. It would be cool to see a world where shoot outs between magic slingers and gunslingers are common, as well as how magic would be integrated into an industrializing world.

[@warhound8496]

Check the lore of the world of the video game "arcanum, of steamwork and magics". The entire game takes this them of tradition against industrial ism.

[@miguelguedes3411]

west of loathing, look it up

[@Quincy_Morris]

Old west is quite a bit later than the era described here.

[@galaloadgundy8653]

@@miguelguedes3411 or the sequel shadows over loathing

[@Existential_Robot]

Wizard with a Gun. Arcane Yee-haw.

[@MythicMachina]

Other people: "guns don't belong in a fantasy world!" Me: (Banging fist on table) MAGIC GUNS! MAGIC GUNS!

[@hippityhoppityyourvirginit3823]

Normal guns: ✋ Magic guns: 👉

[@personman8734]

It still amazes me that we canonically can make actual people in dnd but apparently a cannon is one step too far

[@scottfoster7297]

I just helped my DM with a character that is a warlock with a gun. His gun is the spell casting focus, so all his spells come from the gun. Its called the rune rifle.

[@indecisivecountdooku1340]

EXTRACT THE REMNANT SOUL OF MULTIPLE POWERFUL PEOPLE, STITCH THEIR COMPLEMENTARY ASPECTS TOGETHER TO MAKE A CANNON

[@monday7352]

I CAST BULLET

[@brandongalvan6603]

Zedrin: "The only other weapon that has a d12 for its damage die is the greataxe." Me: *glares angrily in **_LANCE_*

[@JackPhoenixCz]

*laughs in superior 2d6 damage die*

[@MikePhantom]

you think e5 scrubs know about lances?

[@loadeddice4696]

@@MikePhantom The Lance is a weapon in the 5e PHB so yes, 5e scrubs absolutely do know about lances. Go cry about it, grognard.

[@llewelynshingler2173]

Lances have a really weird limiting factor, where you have Disadvantage against those with five feet.

[@brandongalvan6603]

@@llewelynshingler2173 Hardly an issue if you're a Barbarian or have access to flight.

[@drahydra]

My favorite use of firearms thematically, is that they're a direct response of commonfolk keeping up with spellcasters. Rather than evolving to defeat plate mail, they were invented to match and even directly hunt magic users. To this end, I treat them a lot like reskinned wands of spells like burning hands, magic missile, etc.

[@pretzelbomb6105]

I’m now imagining an oversized party popper that fires magic missiles.

[@glassofwater281]

Un-magics your missile

[@MerasFlesh]

guns that are effectively anti-mage weapons is a really cool idea

[@iCarus_A]

So kind of like Arknight's concept of originium-powered firearms/spellcasting units vs casters who can channel the same power with their body

[@incrediblyangryskeleton]

Commoner to sorcerer: I cast alacablam!

[@geoffhatch4996]

People: "Guns in DnD are not realistic!" No Mercy Percy: "I miss the part where that's my problem."

[@hubhikarilives]

A year later and I’m the first to applaud your joke 👏👏👏

[@DragonKnightJin]

Even better because Percy doesn't miss very often.

[@cr0wnin]

For anyone brining up the point of realism, may I remind you that the raven has a flight speed of 50 feet per turn. If each turn is 6 seconds, that translates to about 8.3 feet per second, or 16.6 feet per second, if you're dashing. That translates to about 10 miles per hour when dashing. At max speed.

[@williamchristy9463]

That's ridiculously slow. They move twice to three times that, for anyone curious.

[@estoericaferret]

That's combat speed, though. D&D rules have always distinguished between combat speeds and travel speeds.

[@williamchristy9463]

@@estoericaferret But surely, combat speed should be faster, and not twice as slow.

[@cr0wnin]

@@estoericaferret Combat speed is still a speed though. If a raven attempted to fly at this speed in real life, it would fall. Granted, I can see why it's not fair for combat for a raven to fly at ~200 feet per second per turn without dashing, but still.

[@estoericaferret]

@@williamchristy9463 actually combat speed is always slower. It's the careful movement of combatants jockeying for a tactically advantageous position. Even when dashing with your action (or bonus action if you're luck enough to have that ability), you move slower in combat than out of it.

[@suspiciouscheese4518]

People always seem to forget that firearms have been around for a *very* long time. Rifling and wheellocks came around during the peak of plate armour, with rifles (not those famously inaccurate muskets) becoming common *before* plate armour went out of fashion.

[@mrpizzacat8273]

Meaning the knight in full plate armour holding a gun saying “parry this you filthy casual” could’ve technically happened in history

[@suspiciouscheese4518]

@@mrpizzacat8273 It is totally possible that mid fight a knight backed off, whipped out a gun and said "Parry this, thou filthy casual!" And shot then their opponent.

[@penguinlordalan]

It's also important to note that full plate went out of fashion because of guns! No reason to wear all that armour when it just makes you a easier target to get shot

[@suspiciouscheese4518]

@@penguinlordalan True, however there was a period where the two coexisted. You can look up "munition armour". Early firearms weren't very powerful so for a while it was still viable to armour against them.

[@wojciechkolaczkiewicz2881]

@@mrpizzacat8273 especially on horse back. First charge and stick Lance through 5 people, then have pistol (s) in left hand(for high profile targets) while using sabre as main weapon. That's irl tactic used at end of Calvary age

[@ComicalRealm]

"The most difficult part of DnD is finding a day when everybody can play. " - Master Oogway

[@Zedrinbot]

schedules are the highest CR monster in all of D&D

[@master0fthearts894]

“The second most difficult part is making sure that everyone who has agreed to play can show up.” -Master Oogway

[@thetruegoldenknight]

@@Zedrinbot And not just D&D. It also applies to RPGs across the board!

[@SelandraTheTomewormNaga]

i swear to god your everywhere

[@ConfusdTarz]

Wise words old turtle person

[@bodkie]

The sorcerer: guns shouldn't exist, because there's no way to make them realistic without being way too overpowered and deal too much damage. Also the sorcerer: I cast fireball (in every situation)

[@vaulthunterfromterra4053]

Barbarian/Monk players: *Nervous sweating* 👀

[@MoonPatch]

@@vaulthunterfromterra4053 No but the existence of guns makes monks infinitely more badass by virtue of being able to CATCH BULLETS And barbarians by virtue of being able to tank bullets.

[@mrosskne]

Doesn't follow. A gun can deal the same damage as other weapons and be realistic. If you can get stabbed six times by a sword and live, you can get shot by a gun six times and live.

[@foegettergames252]

Its because a GOD in FAERUN said so. Are you suggesting that your character is more powerful than the gods just so you can use play MAGA Hero? You sick freaks have enough guns in your lives, you don't need to insert them into literally every single fantasy setting as well. Seriously, your obsession with guns is a fetish.

[@brendenhawley2225]

It is worth noting that fire ball may be one of the weaker things one can do with a sorcerer, sure it does a ton of damage to a group, but it also one of the more common resistances out there and is much less broken than hypnotic pattern, aka that army is now drooling as you slit there throats, or haste aka your barbarian is now 50% more killy, (I often turn fights into a slaughter of defenseless people with this spell. This just gets so much worse as one levels up and things like banishment which i use to OHKO boss fights. Recently i had a battle where i dealt with a fight by polymorphing into a T-rex biting a manticore until it plead for mercy and than tailslapping it into the air trying to hit his body who dodged, than I dealt with a fleeing manticore by casting hypnotic pattern so it fell to it death.

[@Potoaster]

With guns in my steampunk 5e game, I replaced hp with luck. Every “hit” with a gun is a miss/graze, but as your luck runs out, the next shot may just be that fatal blow. So no complaining about realism for tanking 8 bullets to the head or anything. Essentially, guns become flavored bows. The luck idea plays nice with the idea of getting stabbed multiple times, too.

[@Specter_1125]

HP is explicitly described as including your luck in 5e (luck, stamina, pain tolerance, will to live). If the attack doesn’t take you below 0 HP, the attack doesn’t cause a significant injury.

[@Hazel-xl8in]

reminds me of when i heard someone say “HP stands for Hero Points. they’re a measure of how long you can continue being a hero.”

[@SusCalvin]

The various grit/flesh systems use two layers of hp. Grit which is the more nebulous luck, weariness, pain tolerance, stamina etc. Flesh which is actual wounds cutting into you. Flesh is rapidly capped while grit keeps shooting away. Grit is easily recovered, with a cup of tea and a sit-down or some vodka or a group prayer. Flesh requires healing magic, slow bed rest etc. Certain things can bypass the grit layer. Sneak attacks, poison, falling off a building, lucky 20 hits. Then characters drop fast.

[@m0j026]

Ooh, isn't this exactly what they did in Uncharted? People were complaining about realism because "how can the protag get shot multiple times and then do parkour and shit" so the devs just told them that his hp is just his luck and when he dies is because someone actually got a clean shot on him

[@TheReZisTLust]

Ah the Uncharted solution. Fair enough lol

[@falkyrie5228]

_"D&D 5E isn't my favorite game, I just play it because it's what everybody else plays..."_ I relate to this on a personal level.

[@teseutressoldi3972]

Me and my friends and kids still play 3.5 , you dont need to play if you dont like

[@falkyrie5228]

@@teseutressoldi3972 I run BECMI, but I've been in more 5E tables that I would like because... Well, because that's what everybody else plays and - although I would still prefer to play something else - I don't mind playing 5E.

[@sirlionheart4614]

Bashes on dnd, still plays dnd. Typical hasbruh fangurl

[@travisgravelle7687]

I like what I am hearing. One thing people tend to skip over in this discussion is sword and pistol style. With one or the other as a primary weapon.

[@penguinlordalan]

Historically with early firearms this was pretty much always the case, firearms were always pared with some melee weapon as otherwise short range your near useless. I think the best use of firearms in DnD would be like a opening attack paired with melee after, but even having multiple guns with a sword works great

[@travisgravelle7687]

@@penguinlordalan in most game settings you encounter this is rarely the case. It all one or the other. Especially in systems that over emphasize off hand penalties.

[@francez123456789]

The one time i played the warhammer fantasy rpg my character trained the noble PC in firearms use and he actually adopted that style... kinda want to play it again but something tells me the GM got super turned off by it because it devolved into PvP by the end...

[@maxibillion2885]

An interesting bit of firearms history: The 30 years war was when firearms became truly prolific and began serving in Europe-wide conflicts, when bayonets hadn’t yet become a workable concept. The usual combat formation was the “Tercio”, blocks of pikemen supported by smaller blocks of muskets, plus light cavalry and skirmishers with rifled weapons. Arquebusiers would fire, retreat between the pikes, reload, and emerge for another volley. Funnily enough, a battle was won because an entire army just ducked when the enemy fired, then advanced and attacked. As for actually topical stuff, I plan to run a hyperrealism campaign with the gang, and plan to include guns for the exact reason you laid out at the start: there aren’t prerequisites for use. Whereas warbows (which don’t necessarily need to be longbows, just high-poundage bows) need a strength minimum and a number of weapons require proficiency to even use, guns are grab-and-go, providing basically single-use ranged firepower to the wielder.

[@twilightgardenspresentatio6384]

I make them roll for attack with guns until they gain proficiency.

[@lukatomas9465]

"The 30 years war was when firearms became truly prolific" Firearms were already the most common weapon on European battlefields for several decades before Thirty Years War. "plus light cavalry and skirmishers with rifled weapons" Heavy cavalry, like cuirassiers, were still fielded and almost no skirmishers would have rifles in the Thirty Years Wars.

[@jonsimpson6240]

@@lukatomas9465 they had units of marksmen with rifled matchlocks, usually local hunters or poachers. They didn't really see action in field battles, but would be seen in situations like river crossings or sieges.

[@griffinflyer77]

@@lukatomas9465 wait wait no fact check on the battle that was won by ducking!? did it actually happen?

[@lukatomas9465]

@@griffinflyer77 I don't believe that any battle was won for that reason but I do remember reading something about a spanish unit ducking during the battle of Nordlingen to avoid a swedish salvo and the battle would ultimately be won by the spanish and imperial armies.

[@danksterdan1682]

"You can just limit how many guns you give your party" Literally any party member with Smith's Tools proficiency: I missed the part where that's my problem

[@kingfail3819]

Firearms are expensive, so crafting one will take a long time, 2 months for a single musket using the PHB crafting rules, 1 if you have help. The campaigns where taking even a 1 month sabbatical from the narrative is possible, let alone permissible, are few and far between.

[@HenriFaust]

Making a gun or cannon also requires special metallurgical techniques. The first manufacturers of guns and cannons were bell makers, not regular smiths.

[@danksterdan1682]

@@kingfail3819 *laughs in Fabricate*

[@danksterdan1682]

@@HenriFaust Considering that "bellmaker's tools" aren't a thing in 5E, it gets folded into Smith's.

[@HenriFaust]

@@danksterdan1682 It isn't the tools that are different, so much as how the tools are used. Bells must be much more study than swords to withstand daily use and exposure to the elements. It is these special smelting and machining techniques that made bell smiths ideal for creating the first firearms. Given a fantasy setting, it's not implausible for regular smiths to build firearms, but it would be beyond the skill of the average smith, unless they were a firearms specialist.

[@boomkruncher325zzshred5]

A homebrew flavor for the reloading mechanic: make the action the reload, but then have the reloading property be a bonus action to fire the weapon you reloaded. You cannot take this bonus action if you are not proficient in firearms. Thus, you can fire, do a bonus action, next turn reload as your action and fire again. Make a Gunslinger feat that allows you to ignore the reloading property on firearms with the finesse or versatile properties.

[@hellhound74]

Just re flavor crossbow expert to be a "gun" expert

[@saintpatrick7673]

Here's a thing to tell anyone who says "guns aren't Medieval or fantasy" tell them about the Siege of Calais 1346, or the Battle of Kutná Hora in 1421, or Li Ting and his troops in 1287. Guns existed, just not widespread, by the late Medieval blacksmiths had already started making different types of armor for dealing with guns.

[@samiamrg7]

I’m sure many of you know about the “peasant rail gun,” but what about Counter Marching, aka the “medieval machine gun?” Unlike the peasant rail gun, this one is actually a real tactic that doesn’t require exploiting game logic. You just get a big line of guys who each have a gun, have the front one fire and then move to the back of the line. Then the next guy fires and goes to the back. And on and on until the first guy is back at the front having reloaded his weapon in the time he was waiting in line, ready to fire again.

[@harloweboggin2222]

So just normal kneel fire line infantry tactics

[@samiamrg7]

@@harloweboggin2222 Counter marching was developed a century or two before line infantry tactics when infantry formations still tended to be deeper and had a lot of pikemen. Tactics and training were such that they couldn’t spread out into a line without over-exposing themselves, so they developed counter marching to try and get the most out of their gunmen.

[@22beesjustvibin67]

I raise you this beast kzbin.info/www/bejne/qHTYh4Cuas1krpI

[@mennoltvanalten7260]

@@harloweboggin2222 No because when it was designed reloading still took a lot longer, so you needed much more ranks than the 3 ranks that system uses. Which means marching around to not impede others firing line.

[@cooperdavis9663]

@@mennoltvanalten7260 which is why the first row has to kneel to reload while the second row fires

[@justas423]

I think combining the "Deal 1 damage to enemies withing 5 feet of your target" and "Treat 3/4 cover as 1/2 cover and 1/2 cover as no cover, but enemies count as full cover" is the perfect synthesis necessary to make shotguns both feel realistic but also make them work nicely.

[@mrosskne]

But that isn't how shotguns work. They're not nearly inaccurate enough to actually hit multiple targets.

[@PilotTed]

@YourDaddy (; *loads blunderbuss with nails, rocks, and tacks with malicious intent.*

[@Christopher-eq1rn]

Thats more blunderbuss than shotgun

[@princezuko8100]

If you wanna homebrew guns in your game, the most important thing to ask yourself first is: what

[@MercenaryX21]

From muskets and footlocks all the way to revolvers I think are your best bets in terms of allowing technology eat while still keeping the I'll still keep in the fantasy aspects. I think going as far as revolvers and nothing more makes the best sense because it gives you that reload time disadvantage which balances things

[@HouseLyrander]

I like to have at least flintlocks available, if only to justify having so many people wearing plate armor

[@SelandraTheTomewormNaga]

id say matchlock muskets is good

[@mongodroid4842]

@@HouseLyrander I'd say it would be hard to justify wearing plate armor if someone has a once/minute death machine that can pierce plate armor at certain ranges if anything, this is a good excuse as to why every adventurer isn't dumping all of their gold in heavy armor, sometimes not being seen in the first place is better

[@HouseLyrander]

@@mongodroid4842 Actually, plate was fairly good at stopping bullets up until the Napoleonic era. The term "bulletproof" comes from how armorsmiths would shoot the armor they made to leave a dent to act as proof that it could stop bullets. Chain however, while making you pretty much invincible against swords, was far less effective against guns and only persisted because plate was so much more expensive and difficult to make. But then, you make a fine point about adventurers. They're not fighting in the open field surrounded by mean with spears like landed knights and only the most successful and famous of heroes have patrons willing to shell out for whatever gear they want, so cheap and discreet linens and leathers would be much more viable for them. And even if they had the cash for it, the fact that they regularly have to hike long distances means they might not go for the hot and sweaty metal armor unless they're specially conditioned for it like a Fighter might be.

[@Blast335pokemineblox]

I've always liked the idea of a magic user who uses a break-action pistol or rifle that fires spells contained within bullets. Think Sharla from Xenoblade Chronicles

[@biasmushroom6311]

I like the idea of a soft firearm basically being basically another version of bows, crossbows and other ranged weapons. So it doesn’t affect balance to much or terrifying PCs that they can get one shot by a lv1 commoner, but are a threat that needs to be considered carefully

[@mrjellyfish6406]

"Goblin Layer" a dream we all strive for.

[@pinguin4898]

look at the rightmost goblin

[@NathanMarcusSPhua]

@@pinguin4898 Sweet mother of BAZONGAS...

[@HellishSpoon]

i like the one in the wizard hat.

[@HypercomboProduction]

Goblin F***er vs Goblin Layer, who wins?!

[@fallout921]

I would be much more excited if they were all buff guy goblins but this is alright too

[@ENCHANTMEN_]

I think it's important to take into consideration what the *players* want out of guns. Do they want realism? Do they want slow shooting? Do they want reflavored crossbows? Realism always takes a backseat to fun imo. If players want to be a gunslinger with a fancy clockwork gun they can reload quickly, let them. Just find a way to balance it. You could even have it both ways. Maybe regular firearms take a long time to reload and are basic weapons, but there are also fancy magitech guns that require special training and fire quickly but do less damage.

[@KoishiVibin]

ok but what if i want to tactically reload magic crystals into my magic gunwand dZIW dZIW

[@mickyflint]

So like jakobs vs maliwan.

[@glassofwater281]

@@mickyflintLmao perfect

[@sethmays8309]

Guns fired about a quickly as heavy crossbows(windlass/cranequin) but had an option(if you were rich) to be breechloading with preloaded cartridges. Henry VIII had a breechloading matchlock around 1500 with the technology predating that by a few decades. Wheellocks will appear fairly close to 1500 as will rifling (straight and twist). So it would not be out of setting for a Renaissance inspired campaign to have breechloading wheellock rifles alongside full plate armor and rapiers.

[@Pain_train_wielder]

@@sethmays8309so, they had rolling block rifles, but just refused to give them to people because they were considered a luxury? What a world people used to live in

[@Zedrinbot]

Maybe I should've made the "maybe try other systems too if you want guns in your game" message less implicit cause it's going way over a lot of commenters heads.

[@pavelowjohn9167]

Yeah, it seems like a lot of people are in the "I play D&D and only D&D" frame of mind these days. In the beginning, if you're still learning the rules, I get it, you don't want to confuse yourself by jumping into another system. But if you are at the point where you're wanting to add advanced technology to your game, you're probably ready to try another game entirely. So just grab one and give it a shot (pun intended), you'll probably enjoy it. Honestly, looking back at all the table-top games I've played over the years (D&D and the Pathfinder offshoot, Starfinder, Savage Worlds, Call of Cthulhu, Gamma World, the old Victory Games James Bond 007 RPG, and various historical wargames), the vast majority had firearms in them, so there are plenty of settings and systems to choose from if you're wanting to play something with firearms.

[@Zedrinbot]

@@pavelowjohn9167 it's more I'm getting a lot of comments of "if you wanna use guns just play a different system" like bruh did you see my conclusion but also that'd be a bad and condescending video if i just left it at 'play something else'

[@suspiciouscheese4518]

I think the big issue is convincing my friends to learn a new system. As a DM it also seems like kind of a pain too. That’s why I want to keep the bulk of 5e in place so I can minimize the new learning. Also, I’m looking to implement them into an existing 5e campaign so there’s that too.

[@lhtyeehaw1319]

Unrelated but if your fantasy world has guns AND dragons, then AA guns should be commonplace

[@mrosskne]

@@Zedrinbot like anyone's gonna sit through a 20 minute fuckin video lmao

[@Twisted_Logic]

All this seems pretty reasonable. Something I'd like to add to the conversation is the use of enchanting on firearms. Something I never hear about, but would 1000% be possible with magic is a powderless firearm. Just pull the trigger and a rune or something explodes in the chamber, allowing you to skip arguably the most time consuming part of the loading process. Let's say you're using the system towards the end where loading your weapon eats your movement because you've gotta stop to put the powder in. With the magical powderless firearm you could cut that down to a bonus action to ram a ball in, allowing you to move, load, and fire in the same turn, making you much more of a threat to mobile enemies. Seems like it would make for a pretty cool and flavorful piece of loot for a musketeer/gunslinger when they start falling behind in the party's action economy.

[@Sillymonkey-or1zo]

Fun idea for a gun that players could find or earn. An old, unassuming flintlock pistol that has a faint magical aura, that reveals that it reloads a new shot every time the gun is successfuly spun in a circle in the players hand. (use a dexterity check every time this happens.) But, if the player fails the dex check, the gun does not reload and is unusable till the next turn. Base damage could be pretty normal, (think regular arrow from a bow), but if the player decides to do a trick while spinning the weapon, it gets a damage multiplier. However, this will cause the dex check to be much harder to pull off.

[@alchemispark7751]

If anyone ever tells you guns dont belong in a fantasy setting, litteraly just point at warhammer fantasy and watch them cope and seethe

[@Thurmanation2011s]

Or point to the robots and aliens in DnD.

[@bradley4465]

Warhammer is about armies, not peasants. The only guns that are commonplace are rifles, that do diddly-squat against an average enemy. (Chaos). The dwarves have the most powerful guns, which are double barrel shotguns. Double barrels are the best, and they barely fare well against anything more well prepared than a skaven-slave.

[@alchemispark7751]

@@bradley4465 "do diddly squat against an average enemy" you are not a clown, you are the entire circus, sincerely, someone who has played total war warhammer

[@johnathonharker266]

The concept of firearms as "martial wands," is a super cool way of representing them

[@DragonKnightJin]

Cue the "Blasting Scepter", which seems to be what people think of shotguns to be. (At-will upcasted Thunderwave from a gun-like wand)

[@TITAN_101]

If games or anime (like Final Fantasy's medieval-themed ones to anime like Fairy Tail) can pull of guns in a semi-believable & immersive way, from magic-fueled muskets to clockwork Metal Gears, I think anyone can if planed correctly. note: I don't play D&D just know someone who does

[@vaulthunterfromterra4053]

“But how am I supposed to parry a gun” By...blocking the bullets? Or by typical club/bat style block if they’re out of ammo. Problem solved.

[@gorillaguerillaDK]

Catching the bullet between your teeth....

[@xenogorwraithblade2538]

*laughs in monk*

[@loadeddice4696]

Winston Churchill said that the only sure defence against an atom bomb is to be somewhere else when it goes off That's actually quite easy when it's a bullet.

[@RedSunUnderParadise]

Cover. The COG would have a field day.

[@crowsenpai5625]

“Obviously you grab them out of the air and thrown them back at the gunman.” -Party Monk

[@dXQuarionXb]

This vid has some great points on homebrew in general, not just guns. Decide what you wanna accomplish and adjust the item accordingly without being too complex. Good watch 👌

[@kaip310]

This is very good! I'm making a wild-west dark domain setting called Rexfald right now and I've tried out lots of ideas for firearms and their usage (DMG and Mercer Rules never sat right with me). One thing I think you could have entertained here as well is the idea that firearms, like in real life, are powerful but irritable to elements and degradation more than your standard bow and arrow would be: Wet powder, Muck, Grime, etc. It would be neat to dive into having spells like CREATE OR DESTROY WATER now having combat utility.

[@h4xorzist]

Firearms are rater perfect in a timetable from ancient China to Japan, topping off at European Fuse-, Wheel-, and Flintlocks. As one might notice, that completely overlaps with the historical equivalent of pretty much any fantasy equivalent. During these times you get firearms with interesting mechanics and that is before you add some warpstone to them yes-yes.

[@SingingToast652]

If it could've been used against a samurai, it's good enough for the campaign

[@NothingYouHaventReadBefore]

Good point-idea yes-yes.

[@deamonmindgaming2054]

Man I can't wait to take on 50 goblins all at once.

[@SaberusTerras]

I'll take on 50 goblinas, when Dec 1 rolls around. ;)

[@sipinosapa]

In a fight right?

[@onlirier2993]

"gUnS iN d&d ShOuLd Be SuPeR lEtHaL tO bE rEaLiStIc" Me: Uses gun that deals, say, 1d8 damage, which is an OHKO to a peasant with 4 hp 50% of the time and is otherwise a very big wound

[@kekkres]

The thing that always gets me is, getting shot is way less lethal than an axe blow or what have you

[@zacheryeckard3051]

@@kekkres I think the difference is that it's easier to avoid the axe blow. Whether you consider HP to be meat points or stamina, I think it can be a bit of both. More of the Axe's damage represents running down the stamina of your opponent before getting the killing blow. Whereas with the gun, it might be more about actual hits, if only grazing, and accumulated damage.

[@thekinginyellowmessiahofha6308]

I have them use two damage dice so they always roll more damage on average but take an action to reload (promoting blast and smash)

[@X4Alpha4X]

the thing with guns is that they are the great equalizer, they allow a peasant to kill a king but can be harder to aim accurately than youd think. My homebrew would simply be: flintlock rifle: 2d12 no modifiers to damage, dex to hit with a 15/300 ft range. 1 attack per action reload takes 1 bonus action. if you have proficiency with the weapon you add proficiency to hit, and range goes to 200/400 flintlock pistol: 3d6 no modifiers to damage or hit with a 10/150 ft range. 1 attack per action reload takes 1 bonus action. if you have proficiency with the weapon you add proficiency + dex to hit, and range goes to 30/200ft Bolt Action Rifle: Legendary item; 3d12 no modifiers to damage, dex to hit with a 20/300ft range. +2 to hit. 5 attacks per action, reload takes 1 action. if you have proficiency with the weapon you add proficiency to hit, and range goes to 300/600ft, Crits now also have advantage.

[@zacheryeckard3051]

@@X4Alpha4X The whole point of guns is proficiency is easier than with anything else.

[@Sorain1]

A while back, when I was running 4e games, I outright refluffed the Warlock into a form of gun user. The Assault Alchemist's 'Eldritch Blast' was simply them using the most common shell in their 'Caster' firearm, which depending on their particular alchemical specialty, had somewhat different properties. This went all in on the idea with most of their abilities being specialized shells to fire from their gun, and constant maintenance part of their downtime, along with shell production. The explanation for why no one else could use the Caster and Shells was simply that for safety and secrecy reasons, an Assault Alchemist would ensure the proper reaction could only start at one point within the shell. Without that knowledge, it was defacto impossible to use one, even if you were another Assault Alchemist of the same specialty. [I wrote up a side bar about how in theory AA's could share shells, but as I didn't expect more than one in the party I wasn't handling that with rules.] It was a fun time and got the role of guns as 'this exotic thing that better not be proliferated' across. (I mean, imagine peasantry armed with Eldritch Blast en mass!)

[@aaronrio8929]

Thank you so much for this video! I've been trying to implement 16th and 17th Century firearms into my D&D 5e Homebrew and you have been extremely helpful. I appreciate you.

[@SergioLeonardoCornejo]

Firearms belong in a fantasy setting. So does high tech in general. Why? Because when you got literal barriers, magic missile, and world destroying creatures, anything goes. Just remember that magical sword might turn the normie level six shooter quite redundant.

[@Zedrinbot]

Thematically yes, though most magic bonuses are only like a +1 bonus etc

[@SergioLeonardoCornejo]

@@Zedrinbot well. I was thinking more precisely of the "Sword capable of releasing magic beams and work as ranged weapon" kind of magical sword. Any fantasy setting with such a thing is entirely compatible with firearms. Actually things like magic missile make them somewhat redundant.

[@Zedrinbot]

@@SergioLeonardoCornejo the rough spot is magic item accessibility. 5e REALLY doesn't want players to be able to buy magic items. They give vague price ranges and leave it up entirely to the DM; and whatever they choose, guns would sorta need to be handled the same way, despite being mundane. If it were like other systems where you can just buy said enchantment for your sword, then guns have a lot more parity.

[@SergioLeonardoCornejo]

@@Zedrinbot there are ways, as you outlined in the video. But, yes, some systems make it easier than others.

[@lostbutfreesoul]

Pathfinder handled it very well - Technology is just another form of Magic. If I grafted some sort of tech-tech arm to myself, good chance I would be using a 'Ray of X' spell to calculate.

[@samiamrg7]

The biggest part of training with early firearms was getting faster reload speeds and moving/firing in formation. There was some experience needed to keep the rods and powder and bullets all organized on your person in the middle of battle.

[@Draeckon]

Yeah, but that still takes far less time to reach reasonable competence than the years, sometimes decades, of training needed to become reliably competent with a bow.

[@pavelowjohn9167]

So far (knock on wood), I've had really good luck with the firearm-using characters that people have played in my home games. In fact, my wife is playing a musket master gunslinger in the Pathfinder AP we're currently playing. She's effective, but not OP and definitely has situations where she has to switch to a crossbow (musket is broken, fight is underwater, party is trying to be stealthy, etc...) Back when I was a PFS organized play GM, I do remember some players trying to make that 'broken' gunslinger that would kill everything in 1 or 2 rounds, but they usually got clobbered with a well-timed confusion spell or whatnot and then never came back (problem solved!)

[@justas423]

First Rule of Pathfinder 1e/D&D 3.5e/D&D 5e character builds: Doesn't matter if your martial build can two shot everything if it can't counter Spellcasters just turning your character off with No-Save or Save-Or-Suck spells.

[@nohi3619]

@@justas423 What about PF2e?

[@officersoulknight6321]

One cool way you could do it is that the guns are extremely powerful but ammo is very hard to come by, having to either buy it for an exorbinant cost or manufacture it themselves to replace rest time. Could work for the “Extremely powerful right out of the box” idea while also having it actually be tactically interesting.

[@VechsDavion]

18:27 A simple way to do Touch AC in 5e (but not perfect...) "If the target is wearing medium armor, heavy armor, or using a shield, you have a +3 bonus to the attack roll with this weapon." This is... "Touch-lite" AC?

[@Palitin]

Or just add touch ac because as the DM you are practically god of your world and bend reality to your will and just do a hot take on their current dex ac modifier +full mod for light armor up to +3 for medium and no bonus for heavy armor if I'm not mistaken. Its a little more complicated but if you're playing with an experienced group they should understand.

[@Zedrinbot]

That isn't touch ac though. If their armor is 11+dex then suddenly that is significantly more accurate than touch ac. Touch ac is literally just 10+dex mod, but it doesn't work in 5es bounded accuracy system and is more skewed than in pf or 3.5

[@VechsDavion]

@@Zedrinbot how is AC going to be that low with medium armor?

[@Zedrinbot]

​@@VechsDavion If a weapon has a +3 bonus against a target, that technically is the equivalent of reducing the target's AC by 3, for accuracy purposes. If your bonus is normally +6 against a target AC of 16, you need to roll a 10. A +3 bonus, or if the AC is 13, means you only need to roll a 7. Given the proposal you made, anything with less than 13+dex for their AC calculation is now more likely to be hit than if they weren't wearing armor at all. Unarmored AC is 10+dex. If someone is wearing leather armor, their AC is 11+dex. With your proposal, leather armor is for some reason 8+dex against a gun, WORSE than what technically would be touch AC. This is a huge reason why 5e's philosophy for design is "don't add arbitrary incremental bonuses," and is why I stressed that in the section on weapon properties, *especially* when it comes to AC / to-hit.

[@brendenhawley2225]

@@Zedrinbot What medium armor leaves ac that low?

[@Counttec]

Comparing guns to wands reminds me that Wizard with a Gun is a game that exists and will be released soon.

[@insertreferencehere.8066]

I need more information on this.

[@gumebe4349]

When the mage takes out the "Staff of Destruction" except the staff is just an RPG

[@mollymcallister1671]

So here was a thought I had while watching the vid.... Smoothbore firearms (muskets) implement an 'inaccurate' property. What this does is it means you can't use your proficiency modifier with this weapon, even if you should otherwise have proficiency with it. This property would only work with smoothbore, single-projectile weapons like Arquebus and Muskets. Rifles and Shotguns/Blunderbus would use proficiency modifiers as normal (but) rifles would be more expensive/rarer and scatterguns would have reduced range compared to a musket.

[@Zedrinbot]

That'd probably just have the side effect of just making people never use the weapon.

[@mollymcallister1671]

@@Zedrinbot Well, this is assuming it still comes with other advantages like the higher damage-die in RAW or one of the other advantages you spun-up like bonuses to criticals (which would make it still appealing for a line of peasants all firing at once which was what muskets were originally used for anyway.)

[@rachdarastrix5251]

I once knew a few Buccaneers who would disagree. But I'm not them so I wouldn't know.

[@nathaniellindner313]

Inaccuracy caused by windage is a real phenomenon, but probably not much more (if at all more) than loss of accuracy over similar distances by crossbows bolts, arrows fired at long range flopping along an arc, etc., and at the distance that most D&D fights take place at (sub-100 feet/30 meters), a bullet is going to go mostly where you point it, especially within a 5 foot area of accuracy. I'd argue that an "inaccurate" property would better be modelled as doubling range increment penalties, or just isn't needed due to the existing system penalties for long-range shooting.

[@Aerowarrier]

I like how guns are done in Grim Hollow, especially with the highwayman subclass for rogues that’s designed around riding a horse with rifles which is super cool

[@LucidDreamexe]

Can't forget that moment at 0:42 where Zedrin just wanted to draw sexy goblin girls. Seems like they were all rescued from towers too. I like thy taste ser.

[@AJBernard]

"How dare you disagree with me, I am right, you are not!" The line that got me to subscribe. =) Thanks for the great content!!

[@CurlyHairedRogue]

How I do spread on shotguns is that they get extra damage dice, and don’t suffer disadvantage at longer range, *BUT,* they have a shorter range than most firearms, and outside of their normal range, within their long range, they deal half damage dice, even on crits. Another interesting feature I add is that at long range, the wielder can target 2 creatures standing side by side, relative to the shooter, and attack both at the same time.

[@MythicMachina]

the Grim Hollow guide has an interested way of doing it, where it's actually a DC save other creatures have to make.

[@phelps6205]

At that point, just make it a damage cone effect like burning hands, and like the guy above suggested, the enemy makes a dex save.

[@CurlyHairedRogue]

@@phelps6205 n-no, I think not. A cone effect is as wide as it is long, and that’s not what I’m aiming for. I’m going for a little bit of spread at long range, not absurd spread at even the closest range. If I wanted the cone, I’d make it a cone.

[@thomastruant8837]

use 5 balls with a die for each one and make it a higher roll to hit the farther they are, birdshot would just be a cone and slugs would count as a bigger bullet

[@anonymouspotato7538]

@@CurlyHairedRogue Well that's just silly, they got rid of narrow cones in 5e?

[@Skymoc4]

Zedrin: _Creates Spider-Bayonetta_ Me: *So spider have gun gun?* (Could also look cool on Spiser-girl ngl)

[@GinLuna]

I like the guns in 5e, and implement them into all of my campaigns. Having ranged enemies that can murk players quickly can make the combat very dynamic and tense so long as you properly implement cover

[@FirePrank6]

I'll throw in my experience, I created and ran a homebrew for 5e (basically reskinned sections of the PH) designed around late Civil War era firearms (around 4d8 damage per attack). My group also tends to play tactically and to build characters more carefully, so this might not work out with more willy nilly groups. Our sessions very much echoed experiences I've had in high-magic, high level settings in 3.5e. As fighters become more powerful, the more traditional offensive classes (STR-Fighter, Fireballing Sorcerer) become irrelevant and the more wits, utility spell casters, tactics, gear and spell choices win the day. The party now cared far more about the AC bonus from cover or the speed bonus from a horse than a +1 attack bonus. My favorite is how much value they placed on a grease spell or the cunning use of dynamite than any one characters attack. Letting things be dangerous and out of whack can be okay if the group is up for it, but there is a reason D&D has stayed the way it is. The game gives players some leeway to act out their characters in a way that a swarm of commoners unloading heroic levels of damage doesn't.

[@Earthenfist]

Another thing to consider as a Firearm rule would be the billowing clouds of smoke that they put out. Having, say, a cloud that appears in the space in front of you that lasts for a round and provides Light Cover/concealment to both you and your opponent would make things more interesting. You'd have to move if you wanted an unobscured firing line next turn, but you'd also be somewhat protected from enemy ranged weapons.

[@kevingriffith6011]

The inclusion of a slow-reloading, high damage weapon adds a bit of a kink in 5e's combat that I don't think a lot of DMs account for in their combats: They make the first turn of combat significantly more deadly. This has all kinds of tactical implications, but in general it gives an even greater advantage to the side that goes first, and makes the already deadly ambushes of 5th edition even deadlier. I don't have a lot of advice to give to counteract this, other than adding more enemies (which is dangerous thanks to action economy) or relying less on powerful singular enemies (which is something that 5e is already bad at, even with legendary actions/resistances)

[@cryamistellimek9184]

I think if you’re worried about you’re big bad guy getting gatted first then, you could just have his mobs ambush first turn then have him move in once you’ve expended their firearm options.

[@h3lblad3]

D&D table of 9 musket users in infantry square formation.

[@zacheryeckard3051]

@@h3lblad3 Unironically how cool would that be, though?

[@johnathanaltizer3333]

Here’s an idea: make reloading have concentration! This works especially well with gunpowder guns, as you’d have to go through the whole rigmarole of pouring powder, putting in the bullet, tamping, etc.

[@thekinginyellowmessiahofha6308]

Yes. Again though, you could blast and smash an reload out of combat.

[@justas423]

11:46 Misfire actually outweighs the benefits of Deadly, despite both of them being 1/20 chances,.since you get +dX damage if you score a crit, but if you score a misfire then you miss out on damage AND the potential bonus damage. It also aggressively cuts off your actions in the same way multi-turn reloads do.

[@Zedrinbot]

Yeah, that's intentional. If fixing a jam takes an attack, at base, it's a small difference. You give up roughly 1 attack per 1 critical hit you get, in exchange for that crit having one extra die. You'd be short a bit average damage per round, which you can actually tool from a designer standpoint (use that to justify a slightly higher damage die, for instance). I like using 'attack' for this since it prevents characters like fighters from getting progressively worse the more attacks they can make in a round, and keeps the scaling even. Misfire would hurt more if you have any external forms of damage bonuses, though you can also carry a backup gun to sidestep the matter entirely, and there are a few ways to prevent rolling nat 1's (e.g. halfling luck, advantage, etc.) that would look attractive for players; but these all are factoring in external factors too. Plus, you could make it a feature for a gun-focused subclass, giving them a means to rapidly clear a weapon jam in exchange for a resource. (Like how Pathfinder does it for gunslingers.)

[@Unholyhybridgaming2022]

normally when I think about firearms in a fantasy setting in general, I think muskets, cannons, things before the Prussian invention of the dreyse needle rifle in the 1840's (first rifle to reload faster than muskets and would later inspire the lever-action and bolt-action that would inspire other styles, etc.) but right after the discovery than gunpowder can be used for devasting effects when used in a combat situation.

[@LinkDing]

honestly, watching this video made me have my own sudden ideas for how to implement guns better into my games. Great vid

[@z3r070000]

I'mma be that guy and say this, as some one who has used the fire arms from the DMG, "Acktually" the Renaissance fire arms in the DMG are pretty fair and maybe even weak in comparison to other options. Sure they bump up one damage die and rival great axes and heavy crossbows, or eldritch blast, but they quickly fall behind in other ways. for example if you're a fighter or ranger, the musket or pistol might seem good at level one, but once you reach level 5 or get your first feat the one shot per turn musket falls behind in terms of just about everything including damage since you can make multiple attacks with bows, or take the crossbow expert feat which will give you a bonus action to fire another shot. sure you could take tasha's gunner feat, but you'll still find you're just behind crossbows most days, or have used that feat to take sharp shooter instead. do the math assuming you have a 18 dex for both and a hand crossbow and crossbow expert feat that's 3d6 + 12 or 21 damage on average which is on par if not more than musket with gunner feat 2d12 + 8 which is an average of 20 damage. In terms of a rogue which gets one attack anyway. it still falls behind crossbows in terms of range, which will often cost you advantage and sneak attack unless you're absolutely right on them, or take the sharpshooter feat, but even then its still much less than if you just used a crossbow or hand crossbow. This forces you to have closer positioning and can limit your hiding spaces. meanwhile the damage you gain is barely noticeable as you stack sneak attack on it. and 2d6+Mod+Mod is more damage than 1d12+mod no matter how you cut it. And you could even argue in terms of roleplay are rogue with a loud musket is much less sneaky. Not to mention switching from crossbow to musket or vice versa, you'll barely notice the difference in damage, but you will feel the range difference. Some other problems you might encounter if you live in the Sword Coast like Neverwinter or Waterdeep or storm giants thunder is that guns and ammo are illegal and/or expensive, making them a chore to hide and carry and a huge risk to use without alerting authorities. And another thing, while you might be able to retrieve arrows you fired after combat, or loot them off enemies, and easily buy them in town or make them, good luck doing any of that with a gun. If the DM is a nice guy, he'll let you know the recipe for gunpowder/smoke powder or have a black market selling it. But if you run out in the field you're done, and you'll be counting your shots the whole way. Honestly if you can go through the effort of character building, in character paying for, and combat positioning yourself in the right place to be in effective range to use your Renaissance pistol or musket you deserve the cool factor and next to negligible and mediocre damage increase if any.

[@Synetik]

Oddly enough I think monk's make the best use of firearms. With the tasha's optional stuff you can make firearms your dedicated weapon(monk weapon_ and as long a you use 1 ki you can attack with your monk weapon as a bonus action. You basically get the hand crossbow stuff with a higher damage die.

[@NumbSkull2602]

Have you ever run the modern weapons? I did for a whole campaign, and they were fun, but they were clearly busted since they made cantrips at low levels obsolete and made melee combat pointless (which, I guess is what guns did in real life as well). It's fine if everyone is into it, but I had players who also wanted to play modern day wizards, druids and barbarians and I didn't want to nerf the ranger and rogue who already had 2 dice firearms I feel like 1 die of damage is fine, I don't think a handgun is necessarily "more lethal" (per shot) than a crossbow, but when it comes to automatic weapons, I've been struggling to think of a way to include them, have them be fun, and not make them be the meta option (I think the burst fire mechanic in the DMG that represents automatic fire is pretty lame and my players agree with me. They spent the whole campaign taking single-shots from AKs and it wasn't "action movie" cool)

[@zackcook5123]

For me in my setting I use guns to represent the dawning of technology as well as a bygone era. Their are two types of firearms in my setting. Powder guns and rivet guns. Powder guns are slightly more powerful than traditional weapons, but are limited in range and need an action to reload. Some operate like the blunderbuss, others are multi barrel and the masterpieces are closer to revolvers. With simple and martial variant, some stronger guns have a simple extra rule for jamming, these are exotic for thematic purposes. They also cost more to get and for ammo. But my issue with guns is players, often firearms attract Mary/Marty sue/stue players that want assault rifles that annihilate dragons in one shot. Or to have sniper rifles that can shoot for miles, and heaven forbid an enemy uses any of these weapons However for my group I'm going to be redoing 5e weapon system a bit. Simply adding universal traits. I love 5e but it has its faults that could be easily fixed in many cases.

[@destroyer1667]

> want assault rifles that can annihilate dragons in one shot Aside from such a weapon realistically being almsot useless against a creature that big, the obvious balancing action is to give the dragons modern weapons too. Good luck parrying that air launched ballistic missile carrying a nuclear warhead.

[@zackcook5123]

@@destroyer1667 yeah I made that point it was never countered with anything of substance "but that's overpowered". It was just a crap group "well this is a gun and flintlocks technically fired 50 cal so that means the gun should be instant death" Or "I made a pirate so I get guns" "Flintlocks are gay I want a Magnum"

[@charlottewalnut3118]

Actually given that the scales on most dragons are at least as hard as steel and tend to be multiple inches thick most assault rifle rounds would not just bounce off of them but proceed to shatter exploding on the user and their allies

[@beywheelzhater8930]

@@zackcook5123 if we were going by realistic stuff like a .50 cal bullet leading to instant death, basically everything should lead to death. Your party member just got stabbed by a rusty, dirty sword from a skeleton in a dungeon, they now gains an infection. Their choices are now getting another party member to amputate the limb with a DC 20 medicine check less you die of blood loss or dying over time as the infection spreads

[@Deadsphere]

Pathfinder 1e did firearms decently well, the issue was when you could suddenly get a second attack in the form of Rapid Shot. This was of course only something (as far as I know) Gunslingers could take, and it usually came with Deadly Aim to boot. You could do both at the same time, Deadly Aim applied to pretty much both attacks (and if you took 2 levels in bard, you could "juggle" the guns, though this is just a fancy way of saying "dual weilding pistols", therefore giving you three attacks). Depending on level, doing both would put you at like a -2 or -4 to hit, but given the fact you weren't even targeting normal AC, but instead Touch AC, which is usually far lower and with the Gunslinger BABs, is nearly always a hit. It made Gunslingers really fucking OP, but I continue to think with some changes to the system, you could make it work a bit better. Thank you for this video, Zed. Been trying to figure out how to go about gun rules for a weird west campaign I've been trying to work on.

[@RockmariomkiZX]

Well, Gunslinger as a class itself isn't that OP. But as a dip it's insane due to it not only giving gun proficiency bit also Dex to damage with guns. Its actual class features leave a bit to be desired, otherwise.

[@Deadsphere]

@@RockmariomkiZX With the right combination of classes (hence why I said bard, so you could make three attacks), you could make it really strong.

[@Zedrinbot]

i feel like a lot of PF1's classes were built in a vacuum, and the unlimited free actions you can take can mean a lot of BS with certain combos if you start combining specific builds. PF1 is super fun for how many options you have but there's already so much customization with how it uses archetypes, traits, and feats that I feel that multiclassing (outside of like, prestige class requirements) gets to be way too much. Conversely, god I love PF2's archetype system so much.

[@RockmariomkiZX]

@@Zedrinbot It mostly gets that way with purely martial classes (to an extent) and when Gestalt and other systems get involved. The vast majority of classes are highly discouraged from actually engaging from multiclassing due to features being put at strange levels that force a compromise for BAB, saves or similar. 3.5 had it far, far worse with multiclassing since WotC's writers at the time blatantly had no sense of design at all (including a few outright hating Sorcerer for no good reason and thinking literally useless classes were at all comparable to MtG's timmy cards)

[@durk5331]

@@Zedrinbot Feck 2e and its Featclassing >_< I never multiclassed more than 2 Classes, and balancing them properly was really fun, but feat classing in 2e really makes me feel like Im taking away from the one class to get the second... I know that's how it always worked but when its replacing class feats, the things I'd be getting with my levels in said class, instead of the levels themselves it just feels Entirely different and wrong to me.

[@reaganduggins5279]

Bro. My guy. My man. You have just earned a subscriber my dude. I have been trying to homebrew firearms for a while and this is SO MUCH BETTER than what I came up with xD Thanks bro.

[@matheusmoreira9951]

Usually in games I've been in with guns, we usually make it an action to reload and they have an amount of ammo that is in the gun at once, so for example, if you have a six shooter revolver, you can shoot it six times before having to take an action to reload it.

[@stokeschristopher]

I do really like the idea of the fatal property. Having lower base damage but more punishing criticals sounds like a good way to add some fun high points to firearms.

[@Zedrinbot]

In PF2 it's really neat cause accuracy has a more direct impact on damage, given how higher accuracy means not just more hits, but also more crits.

[@MintyVoid]

yo seriously feel 100% platonically parasocially proud of you that you finished this despite having that good ol executive dysfunction. I know how painful it can be to get anything done, let alone something that's then recorded,video edited,posted online, and maybe even sharing it on social media. I know that any one of those steps or in between or even before can halt progress indefinitely and It's inspiring and awesome that you were able to work through it all and post this.

[@Himitsu420]

This has been the best video on the subject. Absolutely! Thank you.

[@datassassin9643]

"it's totally unrealistic to use guns in DnD due to too much damage." Continues to take a double edge battle axe in the chest and walk away like nothing happened.

[@thelonelypilot]

I think the best way to balance guns would be to: Make them hybrid weapons, like the Polish Cavalry shotgun-axe. Remove any stealth property. Deal heavier damage than a bow or crossbow, but lack the ability to be enchanted. Use early breachloading tech (no auto) and struggle against heavy armor.

[@gryphonbotha1880]

Real firearms were one of the few reliable ways to punch through heavy armour, even in the early days. Their weakness was that they could only do this from relatively close range. A bow or crossbow had only a tenth of the kinetic energy, but could carry it much further, allowing it to stay lethal at longer ranges against less armoured targets. Firearms lost their energy quickly but, unlike arrows which would just bounce off well-made plate, the bullets would go right through at short distances.

[@SomeBody08150]

This was a good an nuanced take. I've Seen multiple GMs and Players to try and brew it with similar added weapon properties and so far it seemed to be a Hit for the Players. Also in that Last comment about liking 5e is an absolut mood.

[@cartern5471]

When I played a game with firearms the DM made the ammo incredibly rare, but the guns substantially powerful to make up for it. It essentially became a panic weapon for our artificer if we were in a tough fight.

[@taylorbednarz2972]

For shotguns and blunderbusses, I always make it a DC dex save for the target(s) within the cone. With the target having disadvantage on this check at melee range, straight check at medium, and advantage on long range, on success they take half. The shotgun in my campaign at level 6 is 3d6+dex, but does need an action to reload. It has worked really really well.

[@jacobrispoli4351]

Just the right attention span. You did great, and love the ideas.

[@HackMcMack]

This was an excellent video, i only wish it had come out earlier in my DMing career so I wouldn't have had so many missteps implementing guns into my own games before arriving at some of these ideas! What ended up working for my group is using firearm rules from the 3rd party books by Mage Hand Press for our wild west/turn of the century era game! I find it interesting that a lot of their ideas are the same as ones you propose here (specifically not adding ability mod to damage but guns all deal an extra die, and shotguns doing upgraded dice of damage at point blank!)

[@timothymclean]

4:30: The one thing I'd add for a "realistic flintlock" feeling would be rules for using the gun itself as a melee weapon. It obviously wouldn't be as good as a magic sword, but they should make decent clubs (or shortspears, if you have a bayonet).

[@Specter_1125]

Clubbing your musket was part of British training.

[@SusCalvin]

We make it simple. If something is shaped like a club and sturdy like a club you use it like a club. Characters can take a baseball bat or a piece of rebar and use as a club. I might make a ruling if they want to use a weapon with carefully aligned optics as a club. A scope is not going to stay aligned if you swing your rifle as a club.

[@comandantegorrion7271]

I think my favorite DND campaign I’ve taken part in in the last few years was one set in approximately the early to mid 1500s, so the initial colonization of the New World, where I played a fire Genasi Cavalier fighter from the setting’s equivalent of France, flavored as a disgraced cuirassier, so medium armor, with a DM‘s guide musket with pistol range, a broadsword (a long sword without the versatile tag), and my mount was a wingless griffin (The DM stole a lot of stuff from Warhammer fantasy). We realize that the DM had forgotten to make a setting equivalent of Spain, so we all just sort of agreed that we were going to head down to fantasy Central/South America and kick it with the Yuan-ti and lizardmen. It was very open world, lots of focus on exploring and survival, unfortunately it ended up falling apart because there was only myself and one other player who could consistently make it to sessions, so it was just us two and a rotating cast of secondary players, which wasn’t helped by the fact that the DM was a new DM and would OK basically every homebrew out in front of him, and, at a few points I had to actually tell him to tone down some of the homebrew gear that he was giving us.

[@suspiciouslysoup5647]

One concept that I love to use in my games is to view magic and technology as diametrically opposed like in the RPG Arcanum, so devices like rifles misfire when used by magic users and are only used by non-magic average people to stay up to par with magic users. Coupled with the fact that Muskets are typically quite heavy they have little to no armor to balance it out.

[@badideagenerator2315]

i saw the rules for modern guns on dnd beyond. they're kinda weird tbh. honestly its ridiculous that an automatic pistol deals so much damage. then there's the fact that they take a whole 6 seconds to fire once when i can make a trigger pulling motion 27 times in 6 seconds. the way i'd rule firearms would go as follows: • attacking with a gun: when you attack with a gun, you expend charges from a pool which varies in size based on your weapon e.g. a revolver has a pool of 6 charges per turn, a DMR has 10 charges per turn, and a muzzleloader has 1 charge per turn. the number of charges you expend determines how many bullets you fire on that turn. you only make 1 attack roll for each creature you shoot at, regardless of how many bullets you fire. expending more than ½ of the available charges gives you a -2 penalty to attack rolls. • magazines/clips: although there is no limit to how many bullets you can carry, you can only fire a gun as long as you have bullets loaded (as in loaded in a set amount of magazines, speedloaders, or stripper clips that you carry on your person). the number of bullets you can have loaded depends on the gun you're using, e.g. a submachine gun has a maximum of 120 bullets loaded. shotguns, lever guns, single-action revolvers, and muzzleloaders ignore this rule and can fire loose bullets. • damage: guns do not deal particularly high damage per individual shot. e.g. most pistols, submachine guns, and revolvers deal 1d4 piercing damage and most rifles deal 1d6 or 1d8 piercing damage depending on caliber. • magic items: irl, medieval weapons were phased out because of firearms, but in a fantasy setting, i find it believable that the existence of magic armour and weapons would level the playing field. in a modern fantasy setting, medieval weapons and armour would be way more common due to advancements in magic and the invention of things like the printing press, the telegram, and the internet, which would make knowledge of magic and the crafting of magic items far more widespread. as a result, your average longsword is magical, and just as deadly as a gun. hit points: due to all weapons dealing exponentially more damage, it would be necessary to increase the amount of hit dice that most creatures have. this could be justified by advancements in medicine. its a bit complicated, but that's mainly down to the fact that actions in DnD aren't really suited for the use of firearms.

[@willhopkins8210]

I included a blunderbuss in my homebrew game once. Its "spread" basically allowed two adjacent enemies to get hit with a single attack, kind of like the Acid Splash cantrip or the Death Cleric's reaper ability.

[@Superbug-tf8zy]

"Any game that incorporate firearms goes against everything dnd stands for" I'm sorry sir, have you heard of the artificer artillerist class with the tiny size eldritch cannon, WHICH IS LITERALLY A GUN.

[@KoishiVibin]

Me creating powered armor:

[@insertnamehere916]

There are legit people who say that Artificer itself was a mistake that should have never happened I say sic em F-160

[@Limrasson]

I have so many quirky ideas for kensei and the Gun Monk is one of them. It's also historically accurate.

[@Deko304]

My rule for muskets is u can reload as a bonus action but it takes 3 turns, (kind of like a cool-down) or if you’re impatient u can use one full action to reload it

[@kevintan3705]

I’m definitely a fan of trading movement for reloads, and using bonus actions and/or actions to augment shooting. However, I’m most in favor of “fantasy” flavored guns, similar to the right image at 8:38. Big barrel means big payload, and thus more utility, whether it’s creating a puddle of water, an area of smoke, or even anti-mage payloads that silence an area. I think using firearms to influence the environment is a very healthy choice that promotes both creativity and environmental awareness.

[@0_Body]

Barbarian: "The only guns I am packing are these!" *Begins flexing muscles

[@PsychadelicoDuck]

*Bullets begin flying out of his biceps

[@Natalie_the_Fae]

When I implement guns in a campaign, I like to classify their damage as a completely different type known as ballistic damage. This way I can give certain creatures ballistic immunity, resistance, or weakness as so I can balance them easily. If the Creature is built like a tank with lots of fatty tissue, then they have ballistic resistance. If the creatures body is mainly composed of a steal like material, then they have ballistic immunity. If they’re a thinly build creature with nothing but fur or clothing to protect themselves, then they have ballistic weakness.

[@thekinginyellowmessiahofha6308]

OK here’s the thing though guns are very good at going through armor. If it’s immune to ballistic damage bun not normal slashing and piercing that makes 0 sense .

[@Natalie_the_Fae]

@@thekinginyellowmessiahofha6308 I was more talking about constructs or other robotic creatures, dragons larger then adults, or any large scaly creature like the tarrasque. Thing where a bullet would be generally ineffective in slowly it down. It was also relatively rare for a creature to have ballistic immunity.

[@ultimaterecoil1136]

@@thekinginyellowmessiahofha6308 yet ballistic vest can’t handle a knife or a arrow since they are designed to use a bullet’s high speed against them. Though not many creatures would have such properties in their natural armor it’d be reasonable for there to be low ac armors that specifically are only good vs bullets depending on the setting.

[@goreobsessed2308]

I've been on both sides of this argument. You've got to give em a good niche my favorite was my buddies game with muzzleloading muskets their range was less than a crossbow but they did 1d20 damage and took 2 rounds to reload. I liked the huge damage range with short range

[@ericadams1446]

Love the idea of using movement as the reload requirement. One shot per round and movement to reload. Add bayonets and you get a spear that shoots pretty cool weapon.

[@Penultimeat]

I think, flavor-wise, I like muskets and pistols a lot less than hand cannons. and I don’t mean like just a heavy handgun, I mean one of those ancient Chinese polearms that had miniature cannons on the end. (As seen in mulan?) These things were so cool, you could drive the pole into the ground and shoot them like mortars for indirect fire.

[@obsidiansiriusblackheart]

Considering Spelljammer being just announced, I could DEFINITELY see buccaneer-syle combat, ie one pistol shot followed by some sword duelling

[@SusCalvin]

When the players get their hands on weapons with punishing reload times, that is how they start using them. A weapon that fires every second or third round or more will in practice have a firing rate of once every skirmish. The hobos and their foes shoot once, and are either legging it, clashing or overrun before anyone would have a chance to reload. In the old rules, the turn went missile, magic, melee/movement. Anyone with a readied missile weapon acts first. It doesn't matter if you rolled high initiative, you are still going to get shot if you run into three cops holding SMGs. Characters have carried braces of pistols. They will strap on one or two pairs of pistols and use them one after another during a running battle. The most ludicrous I have seen was a one-armed wizard with six pistols. The PCs currently have access to revolvers, pistols and automatic rifles etc. Even a flame thrower. Things are balanced because so does their opposition.

[@-Bile-]

Some specialized units like Ottoman Janissaries or the snipers of Afghani tribes were trained to reload in combat. Reloading mid-fight was also a staple of napoleonic line warfare, although this was a pretty late development.

[@Butter_Warrior99]

My medieval firearms and pole: Lol, gun stick go bang.

[@headlesshunter8435]

SW5e is a free resource some people are actively working on that makes a pretty good adaptation of 5e to the star wars setting it has a great system for guns thats *very* 5e. aka highly moddable and with a good backbone. all I changed with the system was decreasing the commonality of ammo (making it harder to find and more expensive for guns) and increasing the damage die to 2 for their respected damage class (d4/6/8/10/12) aka a big bolt action rifle thats clunky would have the properties *2 handed* , *heavy* , *reload 6* (they need to use a bonus action or action to reload after 6 shots, and *bolt action* (spend a bonus action to fire again) its damage is 2d8+dex (rifles being like longswords in favorability by people throughout history) and each bullet is 3gp range would be custom depending on what I really need the rifle to be in the setting.

[@curtismorgan613]

Cool vid!!! I’m starting a new campaign tomorrow called Curse of the Wampus Cat, it’s set in a fantasy version of Appalachia guns will be present. I went with high cost to acquire in a poor area as a limiting factor and chose high damage die and multi turn reload, I like the idea of a once per combat action but I want to add a bit more realism and flavor to it. I home brewed 8 guns from a pepper box that deals 3d4 +2 in a 10 cone with disadvantage on targets beyond 5 feet that costs 300gp, to a double barrel buffalo gun with a range of 150/300 that deals 4d10+8+2xdex, and costs 15,000gp Firing the gun takes a while action to avoid playing with machine guns. Thanks for uploading!

[@loganfrandrup6590]

Personally, I like how Heavy Arm's hombrew Gunslinger dose their guns, where they can act as normal weapons with a bit more kick with 1d6, 1d8, or 1d10 damage, but they all have the Loud properite which makes a loud sound that can be heard from 300ft away, so it's near imposible to make a stealthy kill with them unless you go full sniper with it. I like it becuase it has a good middle ground where it feels like it's exotic and powerful, but still feeling like it fits with the other weapons. Also shotguns in that game actually deal 1d12 instead of 1d10 if you hit a target from 10ft away making for some fun midline shooting. Also, really sorry, that you are just playing dnd becuase that is what everyone else is play. Do feel free to actually try and find groups that play the game you want, or try and introduce some new players. I for one would be curious to see what you preffer to play.

[@Zedrinbot]

don't listen to animated zed he gets to play Lancer and Pathfinder 1 and 2 all he wants

[@questingbeast7926]

The DMG renaissance guns might be a little weird, but I feel their high damage and extremely low range make them super unique compared to other ranged options. I use them in my Spelljammer campaign, and my 3/4 party of full casters still love them!

[@anonymouskitten4715]

My solution for my Forsaken West setting was to make then rare magic items, essentially like getting a +2 crossbow

[@daltooinewestwood6380]

Between the 1500-1700s there was a brief period where Calvary had pistols and pike lines were flanked by riflemen. Japanese fudalism had a brief period where guns were used as well. I’m cool with stuff like matchlocks, flintlocks, blunderbusses, and canons, they have a reload time that makes them functionally the same as using a bow by game mechanic standards

[@C_A_I_N_N]

4:58 I mean Blackbeard is one of the most famous examples of a pirate who went around with like usually if I remember right 3 to like 6 or even possibly upwards of 9 to 12 Flintlock pistols on him so that way he could get 12 shots in combat without needing to reload