Social Media is Burning | 2024 Artist Update (Ft

[@vonnart]

The golden-inkwell podcast continues with our next episode! 😎Also, Big thanks to all of you who asked questions on the last video as we continue to navigate this crazy social media storm together!

[@Kelleeart]

I found posting on social media fed into my depression. I'd post a piece I really loved or thought was pretty good and it would hardly get any engagement. Best thing that happened to me was that somehow Instagram blocked me from getting into my account (and I still haven't gotten it back.) I've never been so happy now. I just do what I do and I post here and there on FB or X if I feel like it and I don't even bother following the post after that. I don't worry about likes or the number of followers. But, I also acknowledge that I don't depend on social media for art sales because my freelance is my main income source. I'd have a totally different problem if I was only trying to sell my own art. IDK, it's hard to figure it out - especially what to tell new artists out there trying to get their work out.

[@nekonacha2607]

I'm curious what your art looks like. can I follow you on your socmeds? :3

[@yukicakes]

Hi, I'm curious where you get your freelance work from. I'd love to free myself from the pressure of social media engagement, but that's how I reach commission clients, so I feel like I have to care.

[@zivijiono6847]

I feel so relatable! Today I posted an illustration I personally really like, I think it has great style, great content, and visually appealing. 3 hours later, there were just 20 likes 😅 I’m like so pissed and wanted to cry :( I don’t have huge followers like them, but my engagement used to be at least around 200-300 likes for one post two years ago. I’m confident that my work has definitely improved and better than before, but this algorithm thing really hurts me and makes me feel so discouraged 😢

[@WonderfulWorldofAwesomeness]

I’ve posted art on various social media platforms, gotten almost no engagement. Then I’d see some “hot” model post some of their “original art” that they supposedly painted while wearing a bikini or, if it’s a dude, shirtless. Even if the painting was terrible, they’d get tons of engagement, half the comments saying how beautiful the art is, how beautiful they are etc. The other half of the comments would be laughing at the obvious thirst trap. But still, it was engagement. If only I were a hot model who liked to paint in my perfectly spotless studio while wearing nothing, maybe I could get someone to like my art. I give up.

[@annsuo3398]

What I find REALLY distasteful on Instagram at this moment is that you can't chronologically browse hashtagged content.

[@Inkwell]

That drives me crazy toooo!

[@ChillAndSketch]

Yeah, hashtags are completely useless to me as a viewer after this.

[@Ash-nh6li]

I hope they will change this! I dont want to see the "top posts" i want to see all the posts

[@arrowhead8856]

seriously! i shouldn’t be seeing posts from 2 years ago in the recent section

[@jesterfeathers]

ikr, and even search results are curated "for you" instead of even being all the popular posts on IG. This makes it feel really claustrophobic to me.

[@screambeyond]

What is sad is not what's happening in social media. What is sad is that most artists now totally condition their way of creating and their creativity in general to social media. The outcome is that you clearly see they are not creating a peculiar world, nor digging into themselves and exploring. Besides shallowness, you just have the stuff this video shows, artists just caring about algorithms and audiences that only appreciate shallow art done with trendy tech or trendy visual patterns.

[@akalui007]

amen

[@ClabeTickel]

I don’t recommend deviant art at all. They sell your art to ai companies and they allow ai art all over their platform.

[@Inkwell]

I’ve black listed them at this point as well….

[@idfungus]

The ai art is overwhelming on DA

[@ClabeTickel]

@@idfungus it’s all I see, I never really got to use it tho I mainly use instagram and Pinterest. I wish Pinterest had some sort of hashtag blacklisting so I can filter out the ai crap.

[@Aubreykun]

They do not do that, they just were outright on saying that they can't actually protect against it, and provided an attempt at a standard for telling webcrawlers that care to avoid art on pages meta-tagged with "noai." People misread the posts about it. There's also a toggle you can flip in your settings that severely reduces the amount of AI art you see, as well as tag-blocking you can do manually (as well as account-blocking, if the user doesn't tag it appropriately). The algorithm is also pretty good and should stop showing you AI art after a while. (Their pandering to the adopt-crowd with the "exclusives" rollout is another thing entirely though.)

[@kal7rider780]

I just started an account there, now I'm considering ArtStation instead of DA 😠

[@sketchesofshay]

i was hoping there would be a follow up video from the last one! as a younger artist early in their career who currently makes most of their income from social media, I have found that long form video on KZbin has been the most stable for me both in ad revenue, sponsor revenue, generally has a better sense of community, and artistically it's really satisfying to create. I have the ability to build up my portfolio to work towards the career I want, and social media is basically a way for me to comfortably fund my art making and build a community at the same time, and It's not the end goal for me to be a content creator for the rest of my life lol but there is this nagging demand and push from sponsors and the platforms themselves to create more short from content due the popularity of TikTok. sometimes the rates offered from brands is double the amount for short form content which really influences the way I structure my posts and what I prioritize. i always want to keep my art the priority since it's literally the backbone of my career, online presence, and a huge part of my life, but getting caught in the weeds of short form and the demand for more content is frustrating. I continually have to check in with myself and have a critical eye in where I am investing my time. Really interested in you guys keeping this series going! I feel like it gives us viewers a chance to check in with ourselves as well and reevaluate our own relationships with social media. Thank you for this video Dustin and Timothy!

[@FyreHeartStudios]

This comment was eye opening in some ways for me. Thanks, Shay!

[@sh36]

My 2 cents as an art enjoyer: on instagram it feels like nearly everyone is trying to sell me something. It's even worse on reels. It's like half the posts that aren't a literal paid ad are like "i make this thing, pls buy it." It's too much, I'm not out here to spend my time looking at ads. A large chunk of art instagram is also artists on instagram complaining about instagram. That gets old real fast. I swapped over to tumblr about a month ago and there's plenty of artists there. Sure, there are a decent amount of people going "pls buy my thing," but the vibe is a lot different. It feels *less* like I'm spending my spare time looking at ads. All that being said, I'm still more likely to buy art in person. And in person your following is the last thing I care about.

[@valeriaaraujo9962]

Same. My goal is to see art on my home page from artists I follow and discover new art/artists base on the tags I follow and from my experience Tumblr does it a million times better than IG. I honestly regret not getting on Tumblr years ago, because everyone kept telling me it was dead, and making an IG account that I have completely abandoned now.

[@Teafui]

Is tumbler recommended? Better than Instagram/Twitter/tick tok?

[@sh36]

@@Teafui That would depend on what your goal is.

[@KaweerMonger]

i needed this. thank you.

[@ArtsyFoxo]

This is why I believe all artists need to make themselves a personal website/Their own portfolio site and we return to like... supporting each other and making a true space for ourselves. Social media is complete ASS. Of course, I understand the aspect of being public and getting ourselves out there to the non-artistic public/job types out there. But we need to make sure we have our own safe havens first so we aren't at the whim of these algorithms that are extremely detrimental to our mental health and whatnot.

[@MsPoliteRants]

But how do you get traffic to your website without social media? If someone searches, idk, “ocean scene with dolphins” on Google, they’re getting Etsy results (if not Amazon results). I’m fairly certain both those sites have a bigger budget to push their stuff to the top of Google

[@sanaa_sade]

Love these insightful videos of yours! As an animator, social media is very daunting. It's unreasonable to produce "NEW content" daily as all of my content is animation. Such a frustrating cycle. So glad I found your channel because you focus on the actuality of being an artist in a social media centered world. My favorite channel!

[@Inkwell]

Thanks for watching hope it helps 🙏

[@InvasionAnimation]

I'm an animator too, I understand how you feel about social media too. I'm mainly focused on youtube and it is still difficult to keep up.

[@hemig2869]

Tim is 100% right about focusing on improving your art above all else We all follow creators because we love what they do. You buy books from your favourite authors, posters from your favourite artist and go to the cinema to watch movies by your favourite directors Find your voice/style and take it as far as you can ❤

[@GlaaiveLP]

Absolutely. Ditch social platforms, and focus on in person marketing. Also stop relying on PoD services, and invest some time into either purchasing the means to manufacture your own products, or fostering a relationship with a reliable manufacturer. Handle production and shipping yourself. Original art owned and controlled by you is now a valuable commodity, and should be carefully treated as such.

[@Despoina_Nyx]

That is easy to say if you live in a place like the US or Europe but us artist in the third world can't really rely on selling in person unless with sell by the fraction of a penny. I already worked art online because works here paid less than 200USD a month and latin american's attitudes towards artist are worse than the usual. We basically either drop doing art and take 4 jobs or do art and pray you find gigs like that. One big art job is more than my mom earns in 5 months cleaning and remodeling houses. And most big studios nowdays seems rather reluctant to hire third world talent unless you are massively MASSIVELY good or popular.

[@doctorguss]

Listen to her! In person events 👏👏👏 I use social media as a portfolio to get into events. And most of my profit comes from events. Folks at a con/festival are excited to be there and want to interact and support artists!

[@Inkwell]

totally agree!

[@digitalfineart8356]

I appreciate the comment about creating art that doesn’t have to be consumed by the masses and that can be enjoyed by a select number of folks that are truly interested in the style/medium than just following after something that is rave popular. It’s hard to be a creator that is tied to a product that sells instead of freely creating.

[@alzamonart]

While listening to this I remembered about a favorite French artist of mine, Julie M., who has an online portfolio by the alias of Monakini but who does not have any social media profiles - at all. When I met her again at the Angloulême festival in 2023 I just had to ask her why. Her reason is simple: it eats away at her time and energy to produce new art, and that it rarely if ever translates to convention sales which, well, is how most artists I know actually make a living. Social media likes are not exchangeable currency at the supermarket, last I checked, and using them for promotion these days is more of a penitence than a pleasure. The common mantra that "you HAVE to be on social media" is getting old and tired. Especially if it's turned into something you don't enjoy anymore.

[@cetriyasArtnComicsChannel]

I'm in similar boat. I'm posting as I want to and not to hard on it. I'm getting back to just creating the stuff I want to make.

[@artbyinky]

Same here! Even with my KZbin channel. It’s not realistic or healthy to burn ourselves out for this stuff.

[@jenfries6417]

"You don't have to be on the burning, sinking ship alone." - Lol, well, thanks. That's encouraging. I do appreciate the message that a social media following is not absolutely vital to an artist's career, because I have had no success integrating the demands of social media maintenance into my 100% analog work flow. It's frustrating to the point of being depressing. Like, if I have to put so many hours per week into tasks that are dictated by the marketing department of a corporation, why don't I just get another W2 day job, pay my bills, and be done with trying to build a career I love? That's overly dramatic, maybe, but it's how I feel when I try to work on establishing a presence on social media - fighting with the algorithm overlords. I think - no, that's wrong - I have no foundation for thoughts on this - I *feel* like artists need to invent new ways of using the internet, things that are more about what *we* do, even if that's against the "rules" and "wisdom" of the platforms. I haven't quite figured out what to try yet, though. How do you feel about studio/work table trail cams? I have a weird image in my head of followers watching me puttering in the studio the way people watch otters and moose walking around in the woods or eagle chicks in nests on state wildlife sites. Is this the future of audience engagement or just introvert wishful thinking about audience engagement?

[@ettecnal]

One of my artist buddies was telling me, "You need to start posting on all the social media apps daily, start making reels and shorts, develop a KZbin channel and start building an audience, study the algorithms so you can get the most out of your posts, etc., etc., etc." And I was like, "Yo, at what point do I actually draw anything?" ...being an artist in current year... I swear.

[@fergal2424]

Agreed. I think this is just a changing of the guard so to speak, the slightly older crowd who have been on social media for years are seeing it change under their feet. People's priorities are changing, the internet is already different and younger people, audiences, creators etc want different things and will approach things in new ways. Don't give into cynicism. Speaking as a 32 year old illustrator who never really developed well on any socials but still gets decent jobs now and then. And yes, I keep a day job in a separate career at the moment - nothing wrong with that.

[@PLKinka]

YES! THIS! If I need to work 9-5 as a "social media infuencer", basically an actor-marketing gig, what is even a point? I'm still not being an artist, I can just go work in McDonalds. It's still doing soul-crushing job I hate and not even getting any money, for a hope of affording my art tools. Just cut the middle-men and go work a different job instead of soiling your passion for art.

[@pumpkinpatch5]

The last five or six years? I arrived on the Internet in the year 2000. I had my start on Yerf and Elfwood. Later DeviantArt. I developed my art with friends like Tracy Butler and Vivienne Medrano. Then after 2015, things started to look ugly online. Now it's a free-for-all and people are only out for fads and no community. Take me back to the early 2000's. The best time to be an artist on the Internet.

[@theo4991]

As an animator who is making the switch into tattooing with an apprenticeship (which means I'll rely on clientele a lot more), I've really enjoyed and resonated with an article called "I'm a rat, I adapt". It's by a tattoo artist who shared how they did get big on Instagram (40k plus followers, many "viral" videos), but it wasn't translating into the result of more clients for her as her following grew tremendously. It was a lot of energy out of her week to maintain, so she's been experimenting with more local marketing methods and finding her audience a bit more in-person. Especially seeing how people are admitting more and more that these platforms just don't work as well as they did before, it's definitely something I've considered trying more of! Just different and more creating ways to reach local potential clients.

[@westernmetricstudios]

KZbin feels like it is the most transparent and “monetization” friendly. I love all the tools they have to offer to genuinely build and grow a real following. Compared to other platforms, I think KZbin will be “the” platform.

[@artbyinky]

It’s one of those things too that stuff you posted years ago can suddenly get traction again too. Can’t do that on social media 😞

[@jackaleope]

that first line really hit me right in the gut. its so real. as someone who has decided to take my entire base of operations to bluesky, i can say its growing very fast. its literally the best place for artists right now. ive seen multiple artists say this on there. im not sure why some people are still so reluctant to go there, but theyre missing out.

[@exzld]

Not an artist but I looked at the people who have influence over it on the top and many are from twitter which created the issues it had to begin with. So.. how is that any better? I can understand it working better for now as it tries to pull ahead competitively, but what is going to prevent the same old garbage to happen?

[@DeadKraken]

Bluesky has a laughable amount of daily users compared to even Tumblr, so if an artist wants to invest time and effort into growing a social media following, they're not gonna chose Bluesky, simple as that. I'm on Twitter and Tumblr, those are the best combo of social media accounts for me, but I invested a LOT of time studying the algorithm of Twitter to understand what worked best for me(I post maybe once a month now that my account has a reliable big enough audience, and I used to post once a week when I started in 2020)and despite not liking the direction of the platform, I'm not about to do that again with a social media that could collapse any second and has 1\100 of daily users than Twitter. Many artists did the same mistake with Threads and Mastodon and other 5 social medias that tried to take Twitter's place in the last year, and they all failed miserably.

[@kupotenshi]

The problem with focusing on building a social media following is your art becomes tied to a number forever. Companies, art buyers, random internet people, even fellow artists will then value the number attached to your name more than your art. To make a living from your art through social media requires you to sacrifice getting better at art to instead get better at inflating your number. Because the number is what's most important. It all depends on your goal, do you want to make a living as an art content creator or do you want to be paid for your art? It's not the same goal.

[@LuznoLindo]

That's the biggest thing of all, though: Numbers don't mean anything if you're unhappy.

[@kupotenshi]

@@LuznoLindo Numbers won't make you happy, no outside validation will ever satisfy you enough. Popularity comes and goes. Every artist must have an internal drive to do what they do, they need to want to create even when no one is looking.

[@JesseBakerH]

I feel so glad that someone's talking about this. Trying to keep up with social media as an artist feels insane when algorithms and digital landscapes seem to completely change at least once a year. It's so hard to work on our craft while also having to worry about the newest ways of pleasing the invisible social media gods lol. Obviously it would be ideal to not care about likes or growth but when being discovered can be the difference between finding work or being exposed to Art Directors or WHOEVER could be potential employers it's so hard.

[@artbyinky]

Yes and unlike regular influencers the content we make can take weeks if not months!! We’re not just taking selfies with a brand and there’s too many platforms, too many places to be and too many sacrifices to be made for little roi.

[@DeadKraken]

The thing is, most of the artists that work in publishing, videogame or animation studios did not find the job nor were contacted through social media. This a problem mostly for freelancer illustrators(and only a specific subset of them) or comic book artists, because the vast vast majority of the ppl that are freelancers, contractors or have in-studio work simply looked for open positions and sent their portfolio, which can be a simple pdf. If you're not interested in illustration for cards or ads, or comic book art, I would't be too preoccupied about discovery, because unless you network at cons or similar places, ppl are not gonna consider you for hiring just because they see your nice artwork on Insta. Maybe in the past or in very lucky circumstances it works, but I never heard and never known of someone not already famous getting jobs through social media, that aren't private commissions(which I don't think it's what you're looking for). If a company needs artists, they either gonna put up an open role\position on their website, or leave submissions open so you send your portfolio unsolicited, or simply hire someone they have worked with before or is suggested by other workers that have known the artist through networking or are friends with them.

[@artbyinky]

@@DeadKrakenI agree. I don’t know too many people contacted for their stuff on social unless it’s a scam or something.

[@DeadKraken]

@@artbyinky Yes omg, SO many scams. My friend was able to get some nice commissions through Artstation 4\5 years ago, but now it's just scams and she can't even use the site anymore. Artstation was the only useful site(don't know if we can call it social media tbh) for artists in search of jobs, and now it's just chaos.

[@jKurnas]

Such a good talk. I'm not big on social media...but my work sells well in a gallery/boutique environment and I am doing what I want. I've learned recently that you can't tell how financially successful any artist is based on their social media's. There are artists out there without social media that make good, good money. I do notice most have websites though.

[@thenekobean]

I got ads for Instagram AND Quaker in the middle of this video. That's it... The future of social media is oats ✨

[@Inkwell]

Rip…

[@CafeDeDuy]

😔 time to become an oats content creator

[@tewfour]

Grew my Instagram to 40k in a year which I thought would help me out in the long run at making this art thing a reality but didn't post in a month one time and they've tanked my account, so hard to keep on the treadmill especially having a full time job at the same time. Appreciate the podcast a lot makes me feel like we aren't alone and it's not as important as we make out to be. Keep it guys!!

[@badcatloafing7448]

There's still a lot of work to do on educating artists on how AI images work. An artist friend of mine who makes good money off his artwork was asked to redecorate a local restaurant. He created one new piece and then used AI to generate a bunch of supporting wall hang images. He said it would have been too expensive to make all those images himself. He had little understanding that what he made was based on another artists style and work and he never considered outsourcing those smaller images to a smaller artist who would have made them for a fraction of what he would have. It was pretty crushing as a small artist to be totally left out of the system.

[@galatunia]

Thank you both for this follow-up video! I remembered your video about why you sell on Etsy so I was excited to see this come up on my homepage. I'm literally just getting started on my art journey and kinda fell into documenting it on youtube. So it's been very fulfilling emotionally so far! But I've been mulling over where else to post (if anywhere?), and watching my more experienced friends stress themselves out over juggling so many platforms. Really appreciate you all discussing old advice too and just the honesty overall. Do your stained glass, Vonnart! It's okay!

[@MistyMusicStudio]

God this video is so validating haha. Musicians are basically in the same boat right now 😅 Thanks so much for making this!

[@KristenMcNamara]

I hope patreon becomes THE platform for all artists…… I truly think it would be great for us as artists and the consumers to know where to go…… and find us without it being overly saturated with so many other distractions ❤

[@ameliaroseillustrations]

I alternate between making videos based on what’s popular and just making videos I enjoy…and usually it’s the videos I made for my own enjoyment, that gets more attention. ✨🌱

[@Inkwell]

I love hearing that!

[@GodLovesComics]

Loved the previous video and when a young artist actually mentioned in an interview that social media seemed to have changed significantly for him and he wasn't sure if he was just imagining it had gotten worse, I immediately referred him to your video.

[@theunexpectedgypsy]

Loved this and the last video you did together, v insightful. I'm older,( in my 50's) and so 'newer' at all this (!) KZbin works best for me. Instagram is v frustrating for many reasons, someone cloned me and when my followers reported it, Instagram shut me down never to reinstate... so solemnly I would agree with; 'go cautiously' & never put your eggs into one basket oh and, never sell your soul to the social media devels....! Authenticity matters!

[@ThePowerofStoriesDK]

Damn, vonnart calling me out on the productivity thing. He makes a great point here. Invest 90% of your work time actually MAKING ART. The social media stuff, learning new strategies, etc. all comes second to that. Thanks for the reminder! Gotta go back to working on my art now.

[@scarletsletter4466]

I’m a preproduction designer/ concept artist & also have a mural company. I rank twitter/ X above the other social media for most artists unless you’re doing very cookie-cutter mainstream portraits then you can grow most easily on IG. Personally, I detest the Meta platforms IG & FB due to the censorship & just how homogenous the algorithm is. Below I’ve listed the reality of my data on what gets engagement, & it’s about what you’d expect. Please don’t take this as me endorsing these values, but it is what it is: - realism > abstract - stylized > realism - animals > landscapes - human portraits > animals - women > men - blondes > redheads > brunettes - voluptuous > muscular > plus-size - pinups > illustrations

[@Meimoons]

Even now X/Twitter is getting heavily censored and all my nsfw retweets are flagged as a warning. So X/Twitter may not be the best platform for all content.

[@timkongart]

Amazing discussion! I think these discussions are really important for people to hear and doesn't get spoken about enough publicly. I think its reassuring to hear from influential and successful artists whats worked and not worked lately. Thank you so much for asking community questions and answering them in such a detailed fashion. I don't find a lot of art youtube channels appealing these days but yours by far is my favourite at the moment and I always watch it immedietly once it comes online. Thank you again for both of you for your time and insights!

[@scottyofeden]

A big chunk of it is... social media platforms are businesses. Yes, they need us. But their main concern is themselves over us. And because of that, these businesses will constantly be changing. Back in "the days" people would buy a book of their favorite artist or visit their work. Now, the only way to stay relevant is to be constantly feeding the machine. Why can't we be happy with having a gallery of our work on Instagram? Putting out work when we're inspired. For one, we don't get seen because of the algorithms. Two, people are addicted to scrolling and the need for something new. As artists we need to realize you're either going to be a full-time content creator, or you have to be content with just being an artist and growing your community organically and being satisfied with it.

[@MoreWaterThanBlood]

I have been thinking so many of these things lately !!! My career started on twitter and Instagram by just sharing sketches I was doing in my notebooks and then 7 years later I had to just delete all of my accounts … the bigger I got and the more money I made was fun in the beginning, being able to pay for my college career with art also felt like I was “ahead” in life but my account was growing and so was my bank account and as it roseee all I did was decline… I tried setting boundaries for social media and my art but for a lot of reasons it still sent me spiraling, the speed I felt was expected constantly, the DMs , oh my gosh the DMs, it was just soooo demanding and I think in the end I just lost who I was as an artist , burnt tf out, and was filled with self hatred over everything i touched … now i still sell art but never online lol and always on my time no one else’s

[@DraconiaGame]

We do actually browse Artstation whenever we are looking for an artist for our projects. Browsing social media sites like Facebook or X is too tedious and not transparent enough.

[@MissLalaClips]

What a great discussion- very informative and also comforting, for those of us wondering what the hell has been going on with social media algorithms. Thank you Inkwell and Vonnart!!

[@felicityfelidaeMMD]

Omg I followed you looooong time ago on DeviantArt and I’m happy to see your progress and making KZbin videos, as I’m an artist myself, but I gave up bc of social media so many times

[@MelMitchJackArt]

yes! Artist Unions would be such a HUGE help and it has been a big thing ive been considering as a creator!

[@drawingfandome]

The one thing I will say for me personally is when I first follow someone it’s for their style of course But once I’ve been follow someone regularly and am staying up to date on their artistic journey I feel like I’ve learned more about them and thus might be more inclined to stick with them even if they changed their style or type of art content because I feel engaged with their story and who they are as people! So if you can get people engaged with a bit of your personal life or journey they might stay with you longer as followers because that brings a different kind of relatability to the table then just whatever your content is! On Instagram a great way to do this is thru stories. I always post about the artist stuff on my story or random tidbits of photos from my life! Or even fandom memes on there. Stories can really be a way to engage and let your followers know who you are as an artist! 😊

[@dioxartt]

Hi ! It's so cool to have your feedbacks about the current state of social media. As an artist who is struggling very hard on every single platform, I find it very appeasing to realize that it's a worldwide issue. I feel like KZbin Shorts and regular might be a way to meet a new audience as the algorithm feels less horrible than on Instagram and Tiktok but I feel really drained by the results on every platform. I don't modify my art to perform on socials but it's still so hard to feel validated and confident when some works I have invested hours and hours into just get lost in the depths of social medias. But as I'm trying to make a living out of art, I feel like I need to keep posting to maybe one day not have to have an other job aside. So let's keep dreaming and thanks for such a detailed video :)

[@jt_manic]

Awesome info guys!!! Socials have been pretty depressing for the last 2 years as a small artist. Just when I was beginning to see growth for the first time (breaking 100-400 range, small potatoes I know) everything began shifting and basically just stopped. I feel more for the full time artists since they actually need the income but it is disheartening to not even be able to reach the small audience I did have. Cheers and happy arting

[@franciscobello1519]

Longer view here from someone a bit older. Saw the falling of Prodigy, America Online, Yahoo, Bulletin Boards, etc. Tech is insanely impermanent, the ground is always going to shift in your lifetime. Not rendering a judgment here, just saying historically its always been the case. Whats different is that the turnover is much faster than it used to be (took decades for radio, newspapers to fall from peaks as means of promotion and communication). Have to adapt, no other choice. Good luck to all, you will find your way!

[@SpeedAnarchy]

Yeah

[@giversinner971]

Or we could stop relying on a shitty tech ecosystem dependent on venture capital that encourages growth at all costs. I hate when people say stuff like “it’s just how it is” or “it’s always been this way” when the current situation was designed by people on power to be the way it is. It doesn’t have to be be this way, no. It’s not an immutable law of the universe.

[@AzukiArts]

Thank you so much for this video!! I've been so overwhelmed with my feelings surrounding social media and AI lately. It's so nice to hear such encouraging thoughts from the artists I look up to!!

[@boomrattleboom]

Great episode Dustin, Timothy, and Sang! My key takeaways were to not get caught up in social media algorithms; focusing on your art and in-person appearances. I love the bit about showing up at the smaller cons and building up from there. On a sidenote, Timothy's self-carving pumpkin is dope!!

[@rebcebabart]

Awesome podcast! My only addition is that some people could build up a career on that 2018 peak. With the cut of view, hardships of fighting the algorithms and putting food on the table I can see man of them struggling. I can't even say they are lazy, they work crazy hard but after years of trying and failing no wonder they are burnt out. I'm not entirely sure what the solution is, they have a desirable style, they share their work, most of their customers are regular, but they stopped growing despite all the effort. I know this profession and self-employment is not easy, it just sucks seeing friends try so hard for minimal results whilst they have to think about food, taxes, pension and family. I'm sure it's also the infinite content consumerism, most people see artworks, like them and scroll away never looking back.

[@ClearCutDesignStudio]

Thanks for this! I think a while back I started caring less about gaining a massive following and just started staying focused on what I wanted to create. It makes dealing with social media much easier imo. The right people, even if it's just a few who engage with your work, will come and stay as opposed to a bunch of ghost followers who barely engage with your work.

[@Inkwell]

I agree

[@gentlecard_tom]

I hope we can get a social media platform that isn’t taken over by meta so we can start posting art again

[@saga.petkus]

Your videos always give me fresh hope for my own art and art business, and for the art world in general. Thank you!

[@Inkwell]

Thanks for watching!

[@chrisdanuegis4752]

The synopsis at the end and “what’s important” is apparently what I came here for all along. Thank you both so much! This was the honest responses I needed to hear. 🥰🙏🖤

[@alvaromag419]

I just love how all of the recomendations boil down to "do what you want in a social media full of people and eventually you will have an audience" and then there is me who's been posting on the big sites for years and my biggest achivement is a 100 follower instagram account. guess i will die

[@akalui007]

loved the chat! i think its a good point that the art should of course come first, but even having the need to post on socials looking over everything you do to me can taint and obscure the purity of the process. I think i'd need a full detox before my brain could reach that place of purity again.

[@NiallByrne]

As an artist I kinda pivoted to not posting fully rendered Digital images but just fun traditional are where I experiment with mixed media, sometimes fully rendered sometimes a character drawing or a thumbnail. I haven't gotten to post much at all the the last couple years but I do get a consistant amount of engagement for the traditional art I have done. my main form of income is animation so I dont really get to post profesional work all the time.

[@TheDayd111returns]

In my opinion, traditional art gets more attention than digital. This all can blame on AI images replacing digital.

[@officialgrimwaregamesllc]

All the stuff you're talkin about I'm experiencing as well as an indie game dev, who started on twitter just before Elon took over after that, growth slowed down for me quite a bit because I couldn't link youtube videos so posts got suppressed

[@LionOuOrdaz]

I just found your channel the other day even though I've had one of your vids in my watch later for weeks. Now I'm kinda binge watching/listening to your vids. Thanks for posting, I'm enjoying all your helpful information.

[@Inkwell]

thanks for watching! hope it helps!

[@wrestlingwithwords]

Very interesting conversation. I've always been a big fan of @Vonnart and loved your last podcast together too.

[@cequ]

Thank you so much for these reassuring words. So important to not forget about WHY we’re creating in the first place 🙏🏼 Although I really wish I had a person in my town or at least near to me to share my passion with. I feel so alone.

[@garisinau]

thankyou so much for this!. helps me a lot to reduce my anxiety to share my art on social media.

[@Inkwell]

May the social media algorithm favor you 🙏

[@carlkligerman1981]

LLMs are collapsing as we speak. Turns out the more data they scrape the more homogeneous their output tends to be. If anything it’s bringing human creativity into positive relief.

[@katerina2234]

Thank you for the conversation! I was pursuing my art as a potential business (I was doing digital art). I found the mix of social media, potential litigation concerns from fan art and the rise of AI really discouraged me from continuing. It really bums me out but maybe one day I'll create art again.

[@giversinner971]

Please don’t give up. Continue what you do, nightshade and glaze your work. The trick of AI is that it *isn’t* an independently creating nor thinking machine. That’s why they are continuously scraping art, and they’re unlikely to stop. The idea isn’t artists are obsolete. In fact, the worst thing for AI is if people stopped creating entirely, because it would then have nothing to scrape and train on. The trick of AI is that it makes artists *think* they’re obsolete while perpetually relying on their labor and separating them from the means to profit from it.

[@Aubreykun]

The actual path forwards is to just do comm work for people. A chunk of your following will like your stuff enough to want to do that, that's really where the future is.

[@ArtistGoneWild]

If I can guess, the main audiences of IG have left the platform because it’s no longer used for its original purpose of social networking. It’s now just a marketing and shopping app, and no one wants to be advertised to. The artists and businesses who remain on IG are just advertising to each other at this point, which has no results.

[@xRamada]

the thing also is and its definitely a hard pill to swallow for the majority of artists- your art and following probably isn't good enough to be stolen with ai. So why stop? Just keep going and improving and making art that you LOVE vs letting the idea of ai doing the same thing keep you from making what you want.

[@giversinner971]

That’s the thing-AI scraping is indiscriminate. It doesn’t solely rely on art of a particular level. It relies on indiscriminately scraping of art on a massive scale. So, yes, even artwork deemed “less good” can and will be scraped.

[@giversinner971]

Short story: everyone, regardless of skill, should be nightshading and glazing their work.

[@Aubreykun]

Yea it doesn't matter at all. People follow an artist for who they are, and what they make. Who cares if someone can imitate an approximation of how I make my art? They will not be making the same things I do, and the people who like my stuff come to me for it.

[@Aubreykun]

@@giversinner971 I'm not deteriorating my own stuff out of misguided paranoia. I know a few AI artists on an acquaintance-basis (not quite friends, but have had good words back and forth.) Nothing threatening about them, they're cool. I've messed with AI - not really worth my own time, I don't have the brainspace for the kinds of processing you need, but if others can do cool stuff then good for them.

[@xRamada]

@@Aubreykun there are already artists using other people's art to make a ton of money. why would anyone go to the original artist if they only know of the ai one spitting out hundreds of works a week? it kills visibility to actual artists.

[@StUCaboose]

I stopped referring to them as "AI Bros" and instead opt for "AI Hos/Ho's/Hoes" Feels more accurate

[@p0p525]

I shall adopt that language

[@eggi4443]

art bros vs ai hoes

[@AriaFawn]

(Don't worry Sang, I cringe every time I hold up a piece for a Reel too) I think there shouldn't be pressure to show ourselves, and no creator should feel pushed to. But something I've learned the last few years is that my art is for ME. What I create is never going to be bound by what other people want to see (I'd die of discontent *only mildly melodramatic*.) But.. the stories behind my work are for my beloved audience. The people who have had the patience to sift through the novel of words behind each piece, or listen to me at shows. That's built a connection that may be more niche and small, but that I'm so deeply grateful for. So for me, showing myself as I am (a massive dork, let's be real!) has felt like a way to further connect with that niche of patient, kind souls who give me the time of day. I want to allow people to feel comfortable in my presence and see me in a more real way. Which kind of feeds into how I'm trying to view my business as a whole. I know I'm operating on the long con, the slow growth due to the rigid boundaries I place around myself to ensure I never stop loving what I do. But, I think being genuine to yourself, as you two said, and focusing on a deep gratitude and love for the beautiful people who make it possible for us to do this FOR A LIVING is really healing and lifts a lot of discouragement when times seem tough. We don't need huge numbers of people to follow us to make a living. Sometimes a few collectors and super fans truly make all the difference. Love you both! Thanks for the amazing talk! 💜

[@melmelmade]

You calling Sang over is so cute!!!! The cute girl trick worked on me xDDD Also thanks for the video Dustin and TImothy! It's really helpful to hear what other artists thoughts on social media. I think all the points are really valid, especially the last one that we all need to just do our thing, post it, and forget about it.

[@StudioSkye-Tiger]

I love everything you two were saying. Great session and extremely helpful commentary.

[@DelRae]

Me on tumblr: you can’t take us down because we use guerrilla warfare to survive for the company that owns us

[@Inkwell]

i need to learn your ways

[@Amaiguri]

I joined Tumblr after I got locked out of my Twitter. I really like it there, I'm making a lot of friends, but I don't know if I'll make any sales, you know?

[@wildverband]

Keep inspiring, you both are the reason why I'm going on a sidequest from my commissioned work and I'm even going to my first con in april (FACTS - Belgium). I'v" only been using social media for just over a year now and it's like you said very exhausting and takes my attention off my work. I tried Threads and Bluesky but feels like posting in the void if you don't already have a following,... Anyway I got the message - keep creating and the rest will follow. Thank you both!

[@Pigmentopia]

Best refreshing part is when Sang participates! 🥰

[@ls.c.5682]

Something else with regards to the AI art on social media: Has anyone noticed the rise in amount of sponsored posts by users of generative AI for their generated images on instagram?

[@tushardasee6222]

I was waiting for this

[@Inkwell]

The time has come 🦑

[@uninvincibleete]

speaking to social media audiences being isolated instead of bleeding into one another: i follow you here and this is also where i first found you. i think one of your videos was in the sidebar on a speedpaint i was watching or something.

[@MsRinda]

Loved this, it's so much more hopeful than the last one, and it really pulls the focus back to where it should be: the art. Social media is not the only way to make things work, it's a tool in our tool kit. And if a tool does not work, why should we keep investing energy in it?

[@suulfur]

I think people's tastes are becoming more holistic and are shifting towards authenticity. People's relationship with social media has definitely changed since 2014 and I think that's alot to do with growing up and generational shifts... to elaborate- a large chunk of the audience consisted of adolescents, teenagers and young adults around the time of say 2014. Everybody was online on the big sites (instagram, youtube, twitter, DeviantArt, and even Tumblr). Now those demographics have grown up, interests and priorities have changed- those teens are now the young adults, the young adults are now entering their 30s. Today's young demographic, that is anyone younger than gen Z, are mostly consuming short-form video content (Tiktok, Reels, Shorts). Online usage is also more polarised nowadays- you either use it less (or more productively) or you live and breathe it.

[@KimberlyPinkney]

16:40 I am So Glad you brought up the question of "Is this AI or hand drawn?" In the comment section! I did a piece that looked uncanny valley and a person accused it of being AI. At first I was flattered, then was insulted as the image took me 4 to 5 hours to create. I brought out my process drawing from Procreate and I still didn't receive an apology. And for months I was in a floundering crisis with my art. AI whipped out art way better than mine at a fraction of the time. It took me forever to get my groove back. Now I use it like I for any source image ideas like Pinterest and Google. I never use the raw generations as is, but it's a good visual tool for me. I hate how AI took over Amazon coloring books, though!

[@giversinner971]

Please don’t compare your art to AI art. Of course it’s “better”; it’s literally relying on a massive amount of training data that includes the best artists in the world. And they’re continuously scraping more and more art, which you don’t. The point isn’t to make an independently thinking of creating machine, because AI doesn’t do that. Instead, the idea is that artists perpetually make more and more art to be continuously scraped, so AI is continuously reliant on artists while also separating them from the means to profit or own their work. Nightshade and glaze your artwork.

[@TheDayd111returns]

@@giversinner971 I'm a traditional artist, but I remember warning people years ago that AI images will replace digital art. And here we are now. And it's sad though because most artists will be accused of making AI images when its their original digital art.

[@HayleeMorice]

I recently decided to quit my art career and I cannot tell you how happy I am to not have to think or worry about social media anymore.

[@LuznoLindo]

What do you do now, though?

[@beesmcgee4223]

Honestly, I just can't handle all this social media stuff. It's a really big drain of energy for me. If I had to rely on that for an income, I'd be in trouble 😔

[@beebzzzzzz]

Social media is so boring. I had mine deactivated and was fine just painting but where I live all the art scene is on Instagram so if i want to sell art at a show sometimes the only way they give to get in touch is through an Instagram accout. So I keep one open just for shows.

[@lindakopec7036]

I found this quite informative. Thank you. I am going to send people here.

[@Inkwell]

thanks!!

[@lindakopec7036]

You are welcome :) @@Inkwell

[@tiakinsmanart]

So I'm on the part about Vonnart wanting to do more stained glass- do it! I am a mostly 2D artist and my feed is a variety of stained glass (which I also just picked up!), painting, and screen printing (and honestly any other craft I do lol), and honestly after easing people into it, as long as I keep all of it kind of relative with subjects and visible in the first 12 or so posts of my page, it doesn't seem to confuse people that much!

[@tiakinsmanart]

Granted, my followers has been stuck just under 4k since December, and it's taken me 6 years to get to that many followers, but also I've never really been a slave to my socials. I found that the people that are sticking around do want to see all of my work, and love seeing me experiment and try new things!

[@ivandevilliers5741]

Really insightful and inspiring video, thanks guys! 👏🏻

[@Brittanysplittany]

Personally, I still really enjoy Instagram. I think the algorithm just needs to be updated to promote still images more as opposed to reels. Like artists, social media apps may benefit most from specializing instead of increasing breadth imo

[@adityaradisty5542]

I think term social media is irrelevant, now its content creator. How do you make a content from your art

[@Vizible21]

My biggest gripe about Social Media is the fact that mediocrity is much more appreciated than actual quality art. You'll see these low quality Genshin fanart with 15 k likes all the time but fully rendered splash art has only 50. Art now has become shallow and soulless because there's only 1 way you could be a successful artist on social media and that is to draw low quality characters with same face syndrome all the time.

[@Juliannasstudio]

Some great tips here, thanks guys!

[@Onthegoart7790]

I always find it funny when people with tons of followers complain about receiving "less engagement." When they'll post one pic and get like thousands of likes and hundreds of comments... while us "new" people with less than 1k followers barely get 100 likes on our pics. They need to get over that... We're struggling constantly to get noticed, struggling to gain a following, struggling to even stay motivated to draw. We just have to strive to keep our heads up and just go with it. That's all we can do.

[@rainsong7773]

Yeah I want to have my personal website be my space. I’m doing this for me, but if others want to follow along with my art and characters then I’ll make my site known on socials. But socials are so abhorrent to me right now. I go to post something but I haven’t posted on insta since I found out about the scraping I can’t opt out of on Insta. Also I just realized, most of my commissions have been from fellow artists lol.

[@The_Almighty_Meepers]

Honestly at this point the only reason I have Instagram now is cuz I have a group of friends from real life that only talk there, same for discord. I started it for art but was too burnt out to post. Plus I can't see what the people I'm following post because my feeds swamped in recommended posts from an algorithm that I can't be asked to train to show me anything interesting. I stopped using Twitter within a week of downloading it because it spams and the settings aren't easy to navigate, same with Snapchat I've now left Twitter and don't use Snapchat unless my friends dm me on it. Tumblr and KZbin are the only social medias I still really use. Tumblr is confusing for searching stuff up and KZbin is PAINFUL with ads but they have the best content for me being more readily available, so they're tolerable.

[@FosterYourAffinity]

Love this discussion thanks guys! Instant subscribe ❤

[@adamsartjourney]

I just do art as a hobby, but this was still very insightful. Thanks for sharing guys.

[@alexj-t2331]

Just came across your channel and I appreciate this! I’ve only made it to 21:59 in your video while I type this so maybe my answer is later in the video but I am curious if you as a professional artist see any utility in using Ai or if it’s bad across the board. I’m not talking for final rendered art but maybe for early on in the outline and drafting process. We need regulations and Ai art should not be allowed to be copyrighted due to its nature of using other peoples art but we have to accept that this will not go away and I wonder how artists will adapt in the future. The discourse is different but feels similar to when I was a teenager and digital art was originally looked down on by traditional artists for quite a long time before it became more accessible

[@PerfectPencil]

I cant support X. I refuse to accept that the nazi capital of the internet is the best place for artists to post there art.

[@WonderfulWorldofAwesomeness]

I’d love if social media would die and people would go back to either in person galleries, or peoples websites. Places like Etsy got corrupted. Instagram is so bad, zero engagement. I gave up.

[@alcetryx]

Not being able to search instagram by ALL recent posts with the tag is the most frustrating part of instagram. How do you find new things when the only options are "top posts" and top recent"? In certain, small, niche tags these posts NEVER change. In general, removing chronological posts has really soured my social media experience. Fine, let the algorithm show me curated suggested posts, but they shouldn't be in some random order altogether if I don't want them to be... (tiktok might not matter so much but facebook just never shows me the posts of certain people anymore no matter how far I scroll and I miss things! Facebook is for real life friends...)

[@philippruizlozano]

This is so damn true, Ugh...I feel like I broke my back the last 6 years for nothing

[@Inkwell]

i definitely think about how much better I would be as an artist if I didn't put so much time into mid-maxing social media

[@StaticFox64]

Every artist conversation: "Instagram is such a shitty platform! I hate it! But. It's still the best place to grow." lol

[@Aubreykun]

A lot of this depends on your aims. If you want to be independent, then just make things and post them everywhere you can - within reason for your mental health. For any places you pick, learn how the algorithms work in terms of posting style and timing, whether tagging is important or not and so on. The goal is to _curate_ your audience, not simply grow it. Somewhere around 1-10% (depending on platform and audience size) of an artist's following will even interact in a meaningful way, and only a portion of those will be contributing to your ability to eat. I'd disagree that the people getting art are "everyday people", they're special, wonderful, fans who jump through the byzantine hoops of helping put food on your table. In the same regard I think people focusing on cheaply-made items for with art slapped on them (mugs or w/e) is a bad move, since it's just functionally disrespectful to those fans. Don't think you gotta compete with Sanrio for cute items or something, just do smaller-run, higher quality things for your big fans - you'll likely have at least a few left over, and if you wouldn't use it, don't bother. The goal is to get a balance of enough demand to be sustainable, but primarily genuine fans so that you're still doing what you want. The algorithmic stuff all varies based on site. For one simple example: Twitt is aimed at professionals who eventually get ad space, so acting like a brand account rather than using it to socialize is the aim. You get actively rewarded for interacting with people who interact with you first, and penalized for replying or rting things unrelated to you. The site is just wholly uninterested in promoting people who won't eventually see ad space on the platform as worthwhile, so you have to "trick" it into thinking you're one of those. This approach however doesn't work with say, dA. It's all very site-specific, so you really need to look into how your chosen platform works. But NEVER compromise yourself! If posting online just gives you headaches, find a way to make it easier, get some help from a friend who may know better ways or tools, or find an alternative route - as you said, some people do fine at convs (or things like flea markets for more-physical artworks!). I do agree on that "AI doesn't matter" - most of my friends and acquaintances haven't seen any real drop in things related to AI, and the people grabbing comms - even if they use AI at times - haven't stopped. The AI artists I've interacted with have been pleasant and generally chill (possibly because of me being a primarily-traditional, sometimes-digital artist who's fine with AI as just another medium of art, so they don't get defensive.) Also very good to hear someone actually mention the fact that people copying work spreads it! I've seen so many people who take the opposite approach (to their detriment) or just don't say anything for fear of backlash. A post I once saw said: "An artist's value is in how often their work gets reposted." And it really is true.

[@Despoina_Nyx]

My problem with most advice to artist online is that it's usually blind to areas outside like North America, Western Europe and Japan/China/South Korea. Areas where not only algorithms already give people an edge but also the areas were selling merch is viable, where you get cons to get some networking done and where you can find studios to work with in person. If you are in south america, africa, south east asia you got only really your online visibility, Networking is harder cuz most professionals are not gonna just trust the word of a rando approaching them online. And studios refusal to be more open to remote work.

[@tunkytunky]

Don't you have opportunities to be the person to start and organize these small cons in these areas? Provided the interest is there but it probably is, in the bigger cities at least.

[@Despoina_Nyx]

@@tunkytunky I'm a small broke third world artist.... And the cons here are usually like 60% bootleg if not more, it's not rare to see pirated dvds still. I barely make enough to survive, tho last 5 months I've made nothing cuz I haven't found any gigs. So I'm not really in the position to organize a con. And the cons that are here ask for a lot of money and specting people here to buy prints for a decent price is hard, anything beyond like 4$ is too much. And as a networking opportunity it doesn't help cuz if there is an artist there they are probably in the same place, it's not like say a US con where you can find an artist that works in DC comics and somehow get noticed for a chance at some future opportunities. The only industry that had some strength in my country was dubbing but sadly that one died off too and went to mainly Mexico and Chile. Nowdays cons here are only worth it if you are young doing cosplay or wanna buy something imported cuz getting shit here is a pain in the arse so might aswell buy it overpriced.

[@Aubreykun]

@@Despoina_Nyx tbh you should look into the history of how cons in north america, japan and europe started. They were originally just meetings put together by hobbyists and nerds to talk about stuff and share their interests, maybe watch a few (reel-to-reel) recordings or movies. It took a while before industry people started getting - and accepting - invites to them as guests.