Some 4-Cost Echoes are Really Bad

All 4-cost Echo skills weren't made equal. Some have much stricter or delayed activation conditions that making using them a pain. Are some characters doomed to feel worse to play?
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[@saintontas]

Are there any 4-cost echoes that you hate using? Inferno Rider on Changli has to be my least favorite. You go from fluid, fast-paced movement to slow, chunky attacks. It doesn't match her playstyle at all.

[@kijuu]

@@saintontas I also hate inferno rider bcs istg I tap the echo button but he decide jump onto his bike ffs

[@manuv8]

@kijuu this needs to be fixed already, bike mode goes off on its own with a tap all the time.

[@ButtonsTaru]

@@manuv8 Inferno Rider on Changli and Encore is horrible, they need a cooler/more fluid echo.

[@nobody-xh6ii]

I barely use echos but of the ones I've used from the following: Inferno rider. Gorilla. The 3 headed bird. Bell. Thundering Memphis. Dreamless. Crownless. The gorilla and inferno rider feel wierd. Mainly the aero one for jiyan. It's why I don't use it. Yet I use bell, dreamless and the bird the most. But thundering Memphis I use when I want to i-frame away from enemies

[@dreisangthefreezer]

My favorite one is inferno rider, big damage on a low cd, swap cancellable on its third hit and the combo is pretty fast, while also helping me get to places faster, and it looks cool. Though, I could say the same about dreamless and bell, it doesn't have the same oomf for me. Also, I only use fusion, electro, and havoc units so I haven't had the chance to try out echoes in other elements. I think the worst is thundering mephis, extremely slow and you're vulnerable the whole time.

[@sliime1832]

Thundering mephis just suits calcharo well, slow, clunky and unreliable

[@user-yr9rx2xh5t]

I don't know. Use Calcharo as main dps and so far he is doing great. He was slow and clunky at first but then I learned how to play him and now he is fast enough. Still slower than some gauntlet users but for a broadsword he is fast enough

[@sandersGG]

You ate that you ate that up

[@ichiroutakashima4503]

​@@user-yr9rx2xh5t I can't believe people still coping that Calcharo is a greaaaaat DPS 😂

[@sorakey4005]

this is the exact reason i use atk set on him instead lmao

[@manuv8]

​@ichiroutakashima4503 copium is intense indeed. I understand people saying he's fun, but he's not strong.

[@ton4323]

the other reason why inferno rider is bad because sometimes you tap the echo skill a bit too long so he transform into bike mode.

[@user-yr9rx2xh5t]

Yeah, they should increase the tap time required to be considered a hold version for that particular echo

[@razortercermundista2165]

When you have a bit of lag this happens like a 10-15% of the time

[@manuv8]

​@razortercermundista2165 for me it happens like 75% of the times, no cap. I play on mobile and my ping is 180ish. The echo is unusable. No matter how short the tap is, he goes bike mode most of the times.

[@razortercermundista2165]

@@manuv8 i play on GFN and kinda happens the same to me, it happens more frequently when I'm farming domains

[@stanleyjiang2244]

@@manuv8 Combat is client side, so your ping shouldn't affect anything. Could just be a slow phone?

[@LostWallet]

what people dont know is that: you take 50% reduction in damage when using tranform echo. and if you use them together with the bellborn echo from your support, that is a 100% damage reduction for 3 attack you can take without dodging. so long tranform echo is not as bad to use as we think

[@kijuu]

is it really 100%? I think it's supposed to be 75%

[@qwertysysysyysysysyzz]

yeah sure go right ahead waste 6s of your character buffs because of thundering mephis just for 12% electro and 12% liberation dmg

[@realer8122]

​@@kijuuwell i think its addition since u can get 100% dmg reduction for 3 hit using turtle + jianxin heavy hold(also give 50% dmg reduction)

[@manuv8]

​@@kijuuit's additive so 100%

[@kijuu]

@@realer8122 Most games multiply the effects one by one. I've never tested it myself but if you have then I'll take your word

[@nonitorebundas3196]

Jué is currently the best 4 cost echo. easy to use ✅ don’t need field time ✅ massive buff ✅

[@FacialFischl]

There are people who says changli’s best echo set is 2 pc lingering tunes plus 2 pc fusion set and use jue as main echo and I always find it sooo funny

[@qwertysysysyysysysyzz]

@@nonitorebundas3196 mech abomination is better

[@kilo1901]

Kuro should make a 4 star that can fight in the air because only 3 Five-Stars can do it.

[@jurio7520]

​@@kilo1901 Yeah, like imagine a big phoenix that attacks in the air

[@kilo1901]

@@jurio7520 Would be sick as an Echo Skill. I was talking about Characters and Changli is Limited.

[@Vizible21]

Idk the only echo i hate with my full being is the monkey. Especially when he does that animation where he sort of trips over its feet like he stepped on a freaking banana(he does this when you use him and he can't reach an enemy). It's so stupid and doesn't feel good to use because as a player it makes you feel like you did something wrong. Like you missed the buff or something. Idk why they added that animation but it's cringe and unnecessary.

[@saintontas]

Yeah... even though the monkey's attacks are easy to swap cancel, the fact that it's second attack doesn't even come out if you miss is frustrating.

[@LUCAS420BLZ]

You missed because you're supposed to be aware of the distance while other echoes teleport you or charge up and run For the most part the abilities are stagnant where you have to give up control to let the echo take over However a lot of these echoes serve the purpose just being gear fodder than something you should consider using

[@syn_chinicity]

as a jiyan main i always feel embarrased when that clunky ass monkey trips and kind of destroy my whole rotation

[@joshuasul343]

I agree with your inferno rider point, which is the reason why i run 2pc lingering 2pc fusion, because the mech abomination summon, % dmg values, and buff is actually quite functional with Changli.

[@Inkfy]

I feel this is a problem that will correct itself as time goes on. There simply isn't enough Echos right now to draw any solid conclusions, in my opinion. Prior to Jinhsi's release, you only had Mourning Aix. Then they released her best option the same patch she came out. Lol I think we WILL get characters' BIS as time goes on. However, there is a balance to be had. You don't want the 4-costs to be so tailored to the new shiny unit that no one else can use it either. There definitely is a balance to be had. I think the Turtle Bell Echo is a perfect example. It's extremely versatile for the set for Healers and Supports. Both Echo set types are useful and the Echo itself doesnt feel clunky to play. I think that's the direction Kuro should go in for the best experience without alienating players.

[@Zer0Perplexity]

@@Inkfy I think they're intentionally making the calamity class echoes easier to use. It makes sense since they share the same 4 cost, but are supposed to be above

[@Inkfy]

@@Zer0Perplexity Yeah, that makes sense. As new areas unlock, there's also the potential for new bosses to appear with more versatile 4-cost Echos. Making Calamity Echos easier to use helps in that regard.

[@uncledreisenior]

I have my Calcharo with Lingering Tunes set and Mech Abomination as Main. I don't find it clunky and noticed that it gives Calcharo more on-field time than the 2 Mephis echoes. I just found it somewhere here on youtube and I had a lot of consistency with my runs. Lingering Tunes is easier 'for me' to use than the Void Thunder Set and along with the Lustrous Razor, the attack scaling is so high, you just need to up the crit rate to make it more consistent. Crit damage is a plus. I just have my Void Thunder set for stand by in case Yinlin reruns. Lol!

[@nicksm2976]

I would love to see more support echoes like Impermanence Heron being added to the elemental sets like molten rift. It would make my Encore Changli duo dps team much smoother to play.

[@ganyumaindayone1112]

tbh i struggled for hours to clear heron of TOA with encore changli both using inferno rider then swapped to the lizard 3 cost thingy instead and managed to clear it

[@horo-horoxdive8046]

Another great thing about the Bell-Borne Echo: -you can cancel its animation to Liberation. In Verinas case it almost like one single animation when you do it properly..

[@Mcng2343]

there should be 1 cost and 3 cost echos that give you stat boosts like all the 4 costs do

[@doctorbustdown5981]

"Not all echos are created equal" ah Video. But very informative! thank you for the video!

[@QMS9224]

I assume we will get a new 4 cost echo similar to how Jue. So it does kinda feel like a waste to farm knowing they will be replaced, but some could be months or years away so oh well 😅

[@Nesteayy]

Depents for who Inferno rider is perfect for Encore but not so great for changli

[@ChaosRune]

What I want to see is more variety in the echo skills of the 1 and 3 cost echos, so much wasted potential there, like they already bothered to give them attack animations, why not make them viable to use? Small stuff, like boost to some stat or skill when used, just to make me think about using them, and not just default to the 4 cost echos

[@iSUMMONYT]

Inferno Rider and Thundering are whole new category of bad. Holy shit

[@manuv8]

Inferno Rider also transforms into bike mode like 50% of the times even with the shortest button tap if you have high ping (pretty sure high ping is what causes it despite the game being client side). The echo is unusable for me.

[@dragonkus6934]

Agree 💯% hate it

[@Yae_is_just_better]

To be fair... thundering mephis is SICK. Specially his animation

[@voshadxgathic]

Summons are typically better or at least smoother in my opinion, and I said that in 1.0. Maybe it was more obvious because I was using Chixia as my main dps, but I really think it's true. I even switched Calcharo to the atk set because the Mech is actually an absurd summon in aoe situations, especially if you've got them grouped on top of each other. Likewise with Jiyan, I've chosen 8 second summons, because you can usually get 2 off in a rotation. If not that, I use Cyan as yet another parry skill for him.

[@kyero8724]

WHAAAAAAAAAAAAT!? I thought it was PERFECT

[@beestek.94]

The only reason why I want a new 4 cost echo for other elements like Aero, Glacio, Fusion and Atk set: I want 44111 to be viable for all element.

[@TheOriginalGabberjaw]

I personally am in love with the mech abo skill... instant, 50-70k crit... considering going lingering tunes w 3cost fusions instead of molten

[@geethenerd]

**holds my rider close** but-! but baby goes fast!!

[@Alderberanirgal]

Looking for even one other comment that says "We should be able to summon/morph into more than 1 echo"

[@jjamesbrown]

If only devs change how echoes appear. What if instead of having to press the echo in battle, they instead automatically get called out/appear without replacing/transforming the character when the character attacks/intros. What I would like is for echoes to just appear and assist not necessarily have to replace the character so that time would be used optimally while at the same time, still get the echo buff. The interval of them appearing depends on their cool down duration.

[@DjimonMoz]

I wonder if they'll add new Sonata Sets? I hope they do. I love the current sets and system, but at the end game it feels like the 4-cost echos are all you have to think about.

[@KaitouKiara422]

Hopefully Kuro kick it up a notch like Jue. Keep cookin brother

[@indomitable2566]

Inferno rider is not optimal for Changli since she doesn’t care about basic attacks, but he still buffs her fusion damage and does big damage. Easy to use too. Just tap 3 times. As more echoes become released and available, more characters will have echo sets more geared towards them. It’s how Xiao in genshin impact stayed on 2pc-2pc set cause anemo set was strictly support and none of the other dps sets supported plunging until they release a set for him later.

[@nobody-xh6ii]

I want them to bring out a 4 cost phoenix that changes to the opposite element of its enemy [so say you are fighting a specter enemy it changes to Havoc] that does attacks similar to dreamless by raining down feathers in an AOE attack but if used with Changli/Rover it can do an additional attack it can dive bomb to explode in an additional AOE attack. Make it also available for all echo sets available. Also, i want rhem to increase the cost to 13 so we cna use a 4/4/3/1/1 set. We dont have 2 cost echos anywhere so either you overshoot or undershoot the cost you have.. making some characters lack damage capabilities all around.. and since you need 5 echos for the bnus you cant use say a 4/4/3/1 and get the benefits.

[@rlstrength]

I hope they manage to keep interesting echoes and improve the gameplay. Jue is great meta wise but does nothing gameplay wise. If the best echoes are just press to do damage and get buff instantly it's just one more button. I'd really like them to revisit the transformation thing and actually give me a reason to want this to happen like in illusive realm (crownless sucks there though)

[@doedoel035]

While I do agree about Lampylumen Myriad and Thunder Mephis being "clunky", for Inferno Rider I think it could be mitigated by being more aware of the battlefield (i.e. taking care of ranged enemies first). And yes, it's still 1.1; too early to judge, never late for suggestions. We saw improvement with the Spectro set, maybe for the next patch we'll get a new Glacio 4-cost.

[@aryansharma3083]

We are getting a new glacio 4* the whale. Hope he is bringing what Lingyang needs to be good.

[@doedoel035]

@@aryansharma3083 Hmm, the Narwhal, huh? If we use PGR as reference, it makes sense for it to be Glacio. Thanks for pointing that out 👋

[@aryansharma3083]

@@doedoel035 I went with the color scheme since WuWa tends to follow it closely with regards to echoes. It needs to be a summon type like jue to be good tho.

[@rishabhadhikari6456]

The funny thing is, unlike genshin i decided to play wuwa in the most unconventional way. I just take any echo (while trying to atleast get the 2 set bonus) and put them on my character regardless. Only focusing on the stats they provide. And honestly it has worked till now. I know, i may not be having the ultimate damage output but farming is tiring and too much effort and all the good stats are on wrong pieces. So might as well make my character the stat stick while ensuring the right weapon and right talents.

[@gigglegimmi133]

Taking damage while in Echo form is a really bad idea.

[@ahrisse6528]

My favorite 4 star echo is the big mechanical one with electric aoe but the downside of that is I cannot complete a full 5 set echoes for a character that uses that unless I'll go full Lingering. 😅 Jué is also good, it can make my airtime last when I cast it midair lol.

[@kliverjohn]

i really hope when we use echo skill we not receive damage when enemy attack.

[@leojart]

Surely Changli will get a Vermillion echo somewhere in the future.

[@naeangold]

Well, ice Narwhale Calamity echo is coming with Zezhi and its summon type. Sure itll be fantastic

[@DT-bo1zk]

I highly doubt the narwhal might be electro base on the dev stream where they showcased rover does a monster hunter walk over a line of echoes, the narwhal appeared and released electric from his horn

[@daisukeshinji4061]

This. Talked about it with a friend, he likes using IR on Changli and I just couldn't understand it. It just doesn't fit her playstyle. Meanwhile I feel like I am dancing with Jué while playing Jinhsi^^. Sometimes I forget using Jué in the beginning but it's not that big of a deal, I just press it mid combo because I can do it without messing up the rotation.

[@Zer0Perplexity]

If you're already swap canceling with Changli, which is more optimal anyway, IR fits her playstyle. Swap in, first two hits, swap out during the 3rd hit. It even hits for similar numbers as her Forte.

[@daisukeshinji4061]

@@Zer0Perplexity You're right, it technically fits the rotation (I play the rotation with IR like that when I need damage). However, playing her in general feels flashy and fast. Activating IR feels very clunky and unsatisfying. It's not that I don't like it because of low damage numbers, I don't like how it feels using it, espescially with Changli.

[@cherrybomb0388]

I personally really like the Heron echos, and from what I have seen the sword is pretty good too.

[@Elong_Musket]

I rarely even use echoes and I need to change that.

[@VSN-wb2ly]

If you don't properly use echoes then you just missed soo many opportunities, especially in the future we will get more of it

[@dugger07]

i just would wait for the sentinel vermillion bird for my changli, at this moment i would just use the rider for the time being...

[@FacialFischl]

When you are a danjin solo main any 4 cost echo as main echo is a dps loss

[@FutayuriShironeko]

Inferno Rider while overall not great on Changli due to Changli having too many swap cancels already in quick swap team, but also makes her rotation not as smooth if played as main dps as well. It might just be me and I'm dreaming, but Inferno Rider's hits eat enemy poise like crazy. Sometimes I will drop a combo on a OW boss and it will die without poise even breaking or it breaks at the very end. But with Inferno Rider that poise bar is gonzo while boss is still on 40% hp. Once again this might not be due to Inferno Rider alone, but it's something I noticed.

[@josephv.4395]

Not a bot I promise but this guy definitely deserves more subscribers for sure great content👍🏽🔥

[@leediaz5690]

Depths of Illusive realm Inferno rider should be in base game. The coordinated attack with Inferno Rider will balance him

[@desto13c]

I use Myriad for my Sanhua. It works. The freeze to Ult + skill + HA.

[@Gr0s3d]

It deppends is quite obvious that the weakly boss are the upgrade, i mean the dreamless is quite strong than the crownloess, and Jue also is stronger than the Aix, probably theres a new weakly boss of another element that outperform they predecesor.

[@BleezyMonkey]

any echo that requires you to do alot of hits to get buffs is bad. that thundering mephis takes so long to get all his hits out, you cant dodge while using it, but you have to go through all the hits for the buff. thats why i use tempest mephis on yinlin even tho yinlin cant make any use of its charge attack buff, it only takes quarter of a second and switch out of it

[@juvian2758]

All schoes should be summon like Jue...

[@Mcng2343]

Can some explain how the cyan heron echo works? It says in the description that it can cancel special attacks but I'm not sure what it refers to.

[@saintontas]

That just means that it can parry attacks during a boss's window.

[@HeliumHe]

Prime example of special attack would be Crownless's big slice combo. Which is very obvious when you fight Hologram V-VI. After he enter 2nd phase he will jumps back and will land to deliver 5 consecutive, big damage, slices. Use Cyan/Violet Heron or Luminous right here will result into him falling hilariously on floor for you to attack freely. In other scenario, you can use this as another emergency counter against mob, it can even be used on moves without parry window and also gives you 5 concerto. Fits nicer in strings of combo especially when you can in the thick of things. It also gives i-frame through the entirety of animation and waste no stamina.

[@relx7981]

@Mcng2343 i didn’t aware or know either but i saw this in the first time “rexlent” s6 jianxin lvl6 hologram fight video(i do not remember which one but crownless i guess) when enemy fly up in air and eyes glow red rexlent use this echo to counter. If you manage to find video and watch you understand better😊. Sorry for my poor English

[@rekttt_7374]

Special attacks is when enemy eyes glowing red, you use that eco

[@moontwin3983]

No one know inferno rider can swap at the 3rd hit while he summon the meteor ?? Just click 3 time and swap when he finish the 2nd hit, the 3rd hit will do automatically and you still get his buff while control other char, this trick very good use on the Verina - Yinlin - Changli team while I prepare all the buff for Changli to burst dmg

[@hldo00]

Inferno rider on changli is really hateful. Will look for more lava worms now

[@user-yr9rx2xh5t]

So 4-star echoes are giving buffs as well? I was just putting random things on my characters

[@allahihayabushamuhammad3016]

Full set bonus shold be from 4 pieces not 5. Then we could use whatever active echo we wanted based on its skill. So waste in this game, so many different echo skills but game forces you into only whatever set is meant for that chharacter

[@karniv0re]

absolutely hate both mephis, the glacio one, inferno rider turtle, dreamless and jue are the only ones that feel good to use

[@pierreshi6102]

they should just buff the damage of the clunky echoes that takes a lot of field time. At least that way there's actual pay off

[@DisappointedJynxzi]

They should rework Thundering Memphis, echo has more better move sets than the current one

[@nightstar475]

Inferno rider on Encore is so good, I dont have Changli so idk how it would be

[@gsm_liv8980]

Exactly the same because for both chars you wanna use their echoes before combo anyways

[@skyMcWeeds]

its good as well on Changli but you need to cast it safely, against Holos i just use Mech Abomination a small downgrade in damage but safer overall

[@Nesteayy]

​@@gsm_liv8980No its not lol Encores DMG IS Fusion & Basic atk Changlis, Fusion & Skill dmg So Inferno rider isnt great for her at all

[@Nesteayy]

​@@skyMcWeedsMech is very strong Overall, very good Echo to have

[@DT-bo1zk]

Seems many forgot about mech abomination, beside, lingering tune set with ele dmg cost 3 only perform about 5% less compare to full ele sets, if anyone know about the TeHu or TeFi build in PSO2 then mech abo does the same thing

[@Zer0Perplexity]

They don't even recommend a full Lingering Tunes Set on Prydwen. Since it only adds attack%, it suffers heavily from diminishing returns since you already get a lot of it from other sources. Lingering Tunes + Fusion Set is about 10% weaker as well.

[@rsg_magfire]

I hate the inferno rider. I'm using the purple heron for my Changli

[@darkdruidsvale]

*not me having a lampylumen on my sanhua thinking its her BiS active echo* 4:17

[@saintontas]

Moonlit clouds and the heron is usually her recommended setup because of how fast she can generate concerto!

[@midwestairway]

I use some 1 and 3 value in the active slot, you don't need to have the 4 slot echoes on the active slot

[@naeangold]

Why? What benefit you got from summoning useless echo that neither buff you or deal good dmg?

[@Nesteayy]

They still deal free DMG

[@rekttt_7374]

They give u concerto energy and resonance energy. You swap faster and ult faster

[@yoatanshamay5134]

Isn't all calcharo deamage is hevy attack?

[@zaldysoriano8696]

After you cast his RL, all basic atk are calculated as RL dmg. RL is his main dmg ability.

[@qwertysysysyysysysyzz]

@@zaldysoriano8696 no, his liberation normal atks are counted as normal atk dmg, but his heavy atk/death messenger which replaces his NA once he hits 5 stacks IS the one considered as liberation dmg

[@Ordell1991]

Maybe inferno rider get bugs. But if you play changli with tempo and use rider on perfect timing, then it will be perfect combo. Changli is extremely fragile and shouldn't get aoe bomb attacks.

[@Kitryugaming]

I only find mephis that require final hit for buff is bad since it have insane low scale and massive count of hit to trigger buff. Rider on other hand he does take some field time but he have huge scale per atk... Full stack verina buff with decent status you can easy do 25-28k per hit, so full combo can reach over hundred k for 2s field times. That barely enough time to gain changli 1 forte. You not losing much.

[@XenoWars]

i dont understand why peopke say lampylumen is bsd. the animation is quick

[@maimaibiri9045]

While I do agree on mempis and rider, I disagree on heron, I hated that thing when its on flight activation instead, it misses a lot, but yeah we can just wait for the next region to gives us option for other echo, specially fusion, electro and glacio, man I hate the rider so much I dont even use it as often unless changli skill is on cd, also kinda pointless for it to have short amount of time on rider mode.

[@demi6916]

Everything in this video at least has a USE. The mourning aix, is literally useless. It is only used tor spectro rover, or if you have Jinhsi but dont have Jue. The best use there actually is for it, is for you to NOT use it and just do a 4-4-1-1-1 echo set for Jinhsi.

[@dendenmushi9714]

So is Crownless. No Havoc user use it not even Danjin BiS. At least Aix is mainly lack of Spectro unit. Crownless is just powercreep with Dreamless existing.

[@ixirion]

I have problem with 1 and 3 cost echoes. They are so underpowered that they are mostly pointless

[@Nesteayy]

U mean the dmg? Because the stats of them are great

[@finalavanger6803]

Wuwa Not Only Berfed Calcharo But Even Nerfed His 4 Cost Echo😂

[@dragonkus6934]

I HATE INFERNO RIDER!!! Hope the leakers are right and we do get a Phoenix echo for changli

[@Ordell1991]

Saurian is quite helpful but duration is quite shorter than inferno rider. Beside, rider is hard to get gold quality and deal higher dmg. So I am okay with that. Echo is not made to be perfect.

[@limkloosterboer]

I hate ghost rider and the havoc bird.

[@Inv1ctum]

finally people starting to realise that 4 cost echos aren't always good maybe after some more time skill issued people start to realise that supports like verina and baizhi is useless in ToA lmao

[@ExDik1]

4 fusion echo is svk 🤣

[@FlareBlossom]

I'm gonna be honest I never even knew the 4 star echoes gave elemental dmg bonuses xddd I just thought they just do damage as you attack with them and that's all xd never read any one of them xd

[@bimantoro17]

Most of them give bonus damage, even the bellborne shield turtle

[@ziebus904]

Yes some are dogshit but lets be honest if we compare it to genshin genshin to this day have like 5 USABLE not good USABLE sets