Some Coin Dealers Are Livid! What Coin Dealers Are Saying About CAC Grading

Some Coin Dealers Are Livid! What Coin Dealers Are Saying About CAC Grading
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[@JoeKind1958]

For this 65 year old guy, this whole grading mess is really making me question investing any serious money into this hobby. Seriously, who would want to invest thousands into just one graded coin where just one grading point difference means you made or lost 10K ? Now you will hear people say that your PCGS MS-69 is really not a 69 as CAC has set a new standard and now your coin is worth thousands less. This is what happens when something is based on many different opinions. Its not good for the hobby. Just my opinion.😢 😵‍💫

[@UncleSam-bu9gz]

If you want to secure wealth then avoid numismatic coins. Soverign boullion.

[@TS1r731]

I’m 100% with you man. All these massive premiums being put on coins that grade a certain way by a certain company. It’s funny that dealers will resubmit and resubmit and resubmit until they get the grade they want and the end client absorbs the cost of that without knowing that a coin may have been labeled as cleaned, details or whatever by other companies.

[@alangrund5031]

Amen. The original purpose was authentication to avoid altered / fake coins. It has evolved into an industry designed to churn fees from grading and regrading using standards which have changed over time. Why change? Well how do you get people to submit slabbed coins unless they may get a better grade? Then CAC came along to really tell you how good the other grading companies were, adding yet another label to chase. It's worked. People really can be turned into suckers.

[@jeffreybaker3285]

Just buy the coin, I prefer raw coins at this point. Ridiculous what the grading companies have become.

[@_CYB0RG_]

It could be that they’d love to make the other grading companies look sub-standard.

[@TrueReject]

I did an experiment with them as well. I collect sealed flat pack proof sets. I opened two sets of 1962 proofs and sent in the complete sets. Most coins were graded at 66, and two coins a quarter and one of the franklins were sent back as cleaned. The only coin to get a 67 grade was one of the pennies. They are being over strict trying to make a name for themselves. This also gives coin dealers an excuse to inflate prices if something has a lillte green sticker on it. Just another way to make this hobby harder and more expensive.

[@williamgrimes668]

Did I hear you correctly? You sent coins removed from the original mint packaging and 2 were called cleaned? It would have been impossible to clean those coins.

[@davidlee5931]

Well said. I was actually thinking about sending my 55 and 56 proof sets in. I'm really having second thoughts now!

[@skypuppy7724]

@@williamgrimes668 Just goes to show you that they have no clue what they are doing - and claiming to be grading experts justifies it.

[@TrueReject]

@williamgrimes668 yes they were removed from the plastic and then put into plastis flips i did not dip any of the coins either. This was kind of a waste of money, but i see the coins they reject or downgrade and it makes me angry at what they are doing.

[@jeffw1267]

​@@williamgrimes668Mint-sealed coins can be hairlined due to sliding around inside the cellophane. I've got some examples of those in sealed mint and proof sets that I bought when I was a kid. There are parallel hairlines on those coins, and if I were a grader I'd probably call them cleaned.

[@jamesgoss1860]

My mouth dropped at the anecdote at 3:12. Going from Details CACG to a PCGS slab and then getting the green sticker should be a black eye on the company. All we want is CONSISTENCY.

[@louieatienza8762]

The stickering service I believe is in New Jersey, and the grading service is in Virginia Beach. The simple solution there is to then send the stickered coins back to CAC to get them crossed, which they'll have to do at the marked grade because the coins are stickered. Then show the whole history of the coins to Mr. Albanese. Then possibly they'll fix it. They've already dropped their prices below PCGS and NGC, so they already know the s#!t it starting to hit the fan. And this is from someone that really likes John Albanese and what his intentions were with CAC and CACG. And there is a rash of over-grading, toners getting grade bumps, fake toning, over-dipped coins... I remember Q. David Bowers talking about early uncirculated coins that were continually dipped and now sit in proof holders. The Big 2 have been steadily declining in their quality of graders, or are doing so intentionally, where I get puzzled at what they put out as high-grade coins. So maybe it's a populace of collectors getting so accustomed to crappy coins getting high grades as the norm, that the get sticker shock when they see how their coins get graded by CACG. That doesn't excuse the crack-outs that got stickered. That's the NJ division not on the same page as the VA division.

[@louieatienza8762]

@@man-lt5qy CACG had assembled "calibration" sets with coins of every grade, to get their graders mindset into grading for certain issues. And they promise to bring these calibration sets to shows, so collectors can see what their "base model" is for grading.

[@rreagan007]

I don't have a problem with CACG grading tough, but what I do have a problem with is their grading service being tougher than their own sticker service.

[@williamgrimes668]

I think it is horrible what CAC/G are doing but the coin collecting community brought it on themselves. Overhyping and overvaluing those stickers has given a green light to CACG to take over the coin grading market at any cost.

[@louieatienza8762]

CAC didn't over-hype their stickers, the idiots in the market did that. I think there is a huge misunderstanding of what CAC's purpose was, and really, profiteers used it to their greedy advantage. Again, I really don't know why the dealers that sent the coins in the video are livid about - it's all pure trash that looks AT at worst, ugly toning at best, and coins with scratches. I watched this video multiple times, and looked at the pics by checking the certs at CACG, and can't help but totally agree with each one. If there's anything to blame, it's bulk-grading, that produces much of the straight-graded junk we all see. No one wants to buy an MS65, MS64, or MS63 coin online, and receive it and see any scratch.

[@williamgrimes668]

@@louieatienza8762 I clearly stated that the coin collecting community brought this on. And I understand that these stickers are only to identify coins they consider strong for the grade. I find them useless because I can make my own determinations. I only buy coins that have high quality images (virtually everyone does) I can determine if a defect or toning is acceptable. The only thing I want from a grading service is a professional opinion to authenticity and a numeric grade based on remaining original detail (and this only matters to ascertain a value).

[@WhoDeyTB]

This is not limited to the coin world unfortunately! This has been going on between Beckett, PSA, and SCG in the card grading industry for years. Beckett graded cards always demand a premium because getting a high grade is tough to get. Just my observations. Thanks for your content!

[@garethbates5044]

From my point of view, CACG is playing their game with graders who perhaps are not experience I feel. I always thought NGC and PCGS were close in their grading standards and CACG I feel should be in line. Yet if said stories are true about those crack outs and grades, I feel CACG is unrealible.

[@massabesicgoldandsilver]

Great video Daniel! I still love CACG, but they are hard on grading. I have many CACG coins, mostly Morgans, and I really enjoy the quality. Thanks for sharing the dealers’ perspectives on CACG 😎🤙🏼

[@markbrobeck6479]

Back in 70's I bought coins from Coin World ads, most Unc coins were Gem BU, Choice BU, Unc...same issues 45 years ago....I found PNG dealers back in the day had the most accurately graded coins....lots of overgrading back years ago...anacs was a great resource to have coins graded..Those were the days!

[@keithberryman7000]

I see slabs, MS70'S, Proof 23' Morgan's, Peace & Eagles that have obvious issues I can pick up on with naked eye! Paid a premium price & they look like 2nds! Thanks for all your work & help with the coin world today!!

[@ulexite-tv]

I agree.

[@leesanders6490]

We used to know what we wanted and that's what we bought and if the price was too high we passed. Now we let the holder tell us what we're looking at. The collector who is willing to study is going to always have the advantage.

[@Supercheeseburger666]

I knew this was going to happen! LOL Thanks for sharing, Daniel. 👍👍

[@StanleyIpkis-nf9gn]

The inconsistency in gradjng is a very strong deterrent in collecting for me. I was just starting to get into it but have taken a large step back.

[@neiljervis1]

In this day and age there can be no reason that computers cannot grade a coin . This would prevent human subjectivity. I also wonder how often the big companies hold down grades to prevent price drops in the very high grades .?

[@CoinHELPu]

Some Coin Dealers Are Livid! What Coin Dealers Are Saying About CAC Grading Look what CAC did to NGC and PCGS graded coins kzbin.info/www/bejne/gWmnkKR6isRgi5I BUY COINS From Us portsmouthcoinshop.com/ Go to our help community here for coin help coinauctionshelp.com/forum/index.php

[@ronyoung3699]

Another great information video Daniel. I will stick to buying coins that catches my attention and I will judge what I am willing to pay for it that way I feel like that I pay the fair price after I research it and I am happy with the purchase it. As far as CACG is concerned I will research it and watch what happens in the next few months to see if I am going to agree with their grades and willing to pay the price for them. Thanks Daniel for all you do Daniel for the hobby and have a great day.

[@Kenlydford]

I have one and it looks like it should have been graded a little higher. I have no problems with them as I’ve only been a buyer. The ones that I’ve seen have all looked good so far.

[@carlmohr9941]

PCGS carries a decent premium over NGC. I can imagine the premium that CACG would carry over PCGS if you can get a straight grade. It's got to be ginormous!

[@Billy-4]

I doubt there will be much of a premium most of the time but time will tell.

[@deanr1963]

The industry is just screaming for AI. Thanks for another informative video Daniel

[@swmovan]

This is why I don't mess with graded coins. I have seen some highly graded coins that look worse than some loose coins I have found in rolls.

[@jimgarofalo5479]

Personally, I have no interest in professionally graded coins. To me, those are for high end collectors and those that have more money than they know how to spend. This whole CAC thing just came out of nowhere, and suddenly collectors are paying premiums for their graded coins? I have been collecting since I was about 9 years old. Currently, I am over 70. When I started collecting, it was more about gathering coins and filling albums from pocket change. Just good, honest circulated change. After 1964, the whole hobby changed with the end of silver in coinage. One more thing that ruffles my feathers is the declaration on a slab that says "cleaned." Right. Show me one circulated coin that has never been cleaned in some form, and you will have a singular miracle. EVERY circulated coin has been cleaned - even if only to wipe some dust off of it - at one time or another. Lastly, I'll say something about population counts. The ONLY population count that counts is the mint record of how many were produced. How many coins have been sent out, graded, cracked open, and resubmitted - and how many times. This totally invalidates population counts. This also does not account for how many high grade coins are still sitting in Great-Grandpa's dresser drawer or how many are in private collections that have never been professionally graded. Well, I guess that is enough of my ranting for now.

[@ChatGPT1111]

You actually are in a prime position to send off your best coins to PCGS or NGC and resell them at a great premium.

[@jimgarofalo5479]

@@ChatGPT1111 I collect coins. As a hobby. Because I like them. I have no interest in selling them at this time. I might also note that any coin that I have had in my possession for more than a couple of years has already appreciated in value. Leave the profit motive to the dealers and high end investors.

[@royboy4199]

Good for CACG, let all those coin dealers cry about the tough grading, for to long NGC and PCGS have graded coins to high. Plenty of coins getting MS-66 or higher, coins on holders is what’s going to kill the hobby. But I forgot we are at a time when everyone gets a trophy.

[@CoinHELPu]

You like this cause of your own personal dislike of dealers. What a shame. You have a good opinion but it’s laced in negative emotions toward people.

[@wandlbaker]

Seems to me that CACG is going to either make it the "Gold Standard" or they will make it the "STAY AWAY FROM ME." I see no middle ground.

[@Hillbilly55-qk4yy]

Coins are worth what someone will give you for them. Just an old mans opinion.

[@CoinHELPu]

Coins are worth what multiple people have already paid for a coin and these average values, based on this metric, are listed in the reputable price guides.

[@marianmoses9604]

I agree with you and with the content creator. Both opinions are equally valid. Buyers and sellers are the ultimate arbiters of VALUE, and auction results and price guides are simply attempts to track and document these market transactions.

[@Geekygadgetsgalore400]

Actually a price is decided between two people and that determines the cost

[@CoinHELPu]

@@Geekygadgetsgalore400 no, it is not, price is determined by a data base of the most recent sells on any given coin. People don't get to set their own prices despite their opinions and desires.

[@Geekygadgetsgalore400]

@@CoinHELPu right right sure 😂

[@sonnygunz9207]

That’s very interesting. I appreciate conservative grading but they seem to be going overboard with details grades. When you go from a straight graded PCGS holder to a details CACG to a straight graded PCGS + CAC sticker says a lot and now they can get the coins crossed over as Legacy coins to CACG lmfao. I think CACG isn’t letting a lot of the “market expectable” would-be-details coins through. We know there’s lots of coins that probably shouldn’t be in straight grade holders that are. Like a couple of those PCGS coins that got sent in again that got caught on the second go around. There are so many variables, I see why you push for AI! What happened to the mint state website? I miss the Morgan pricing. Thanks.

[@louieatienza8762]

"Market acceptability" is the worst BS catch phrase ever to sucker folks into buying problem coins. The problem won't be solved with AI, because the TPGs own the AI software and software can be manipulated to whatever the customer desires. Watch the video, take down the certs, and then look them up at CACG's site. Forget what NGC and PCGS graded. You'll see that more often than not, you'll agree with their assessment.

[@stevenkertesz4625]

Another great video Daniel. Coin grading is subjective. You win some and you lose some. It sure does sound like CACG is expirencing some growing issues maybe. Not sure. I have never sent in any if my coins to be graded by any of the services. I have thought about it but now i dont think i will. Makes me apprehensive. Also its why i dont usually purchase graded coins in holders. Thanks for sharing and keep doing what ya do.

[@frankpop9448]

Peoples greed gave creedence to CAC. They had no problems marking up coins with the sticker and now they have a problem with how they grade. We all know gradingis subjective at best and outright wrong at worst. Keep up the good work sir.

[@booterone1]

Fracturing the grading services will only have a negative impact on the industry. Where did they get their official training on grading.

[@jamesgoss1860]

This just proves my first impression. CACG is great for buyers or flippers, but a nightmare for submitters.

[@ChatGPT1111]

Isn't a flipper also a submitter?

[@louisstennes3]

Grading is so subjective that in my opinion having another set of "eyeballs" on a coin is not a bad thing. It is the responsibility of the buyer/seller in their relationship to come to a fair price. No one forced anyone to send a coin to CAC for their evaluation just like many dealers and collectors prefer raw coins over slabbed. This is a free market place. If they prove to be reliable and honest at a fair price then they will succeed, if not their holders will become collectible.

[@c.tedbarber4140]

Based on that 1 dealers comments about the quarter submissions it sounds like the "green bean" sticker thing is just as big of a money scam as I expected. Send them your pre-graded coin and for a high fee we will blindly agree with the grade and put a pretty sticker on it. Thanks for your money suckers.

[@JoeKind1958]

100% correct. At the end of the day how much a coin is worth all comes down to someone's opinion. So what if the person who is grading coin had a fight with his wife before he went into work. Now he is in a pissy mood and that affects his ability to grade coins that day. Thousands of invested dollars depend on a grader who is having a bad day. Not god for the hobby, thats my opinion. Now another grading company with a different opinion. Really not good, where are the standards? Out the window now.

[@kaynefryday6637]

Yeah straight out , give it 3 years and they guy will start another grading company , Albanese might be greatest grader in the universe but dang he makes my skin crawl .

[@jonathonrichards3471]

Yet another reason why I'm not going to bother with having any of my coins graded. I will agree that a graded coin can and normally will command a higher price, but from everything I've seen through my years of collecting grading companies are just as subjective on grading as the common persons idea of the grade of a coin. Thanks but I'll stick with ungraded, circulated coins for my collections.

[@kevinhoock9742]

What's next a CACG holdered coin with a Sticker if approved by another company ! Sticking with NGC & PCGS..

[@paulbegansky5650]

As I have said before, the grading standards for grading companies are subjective, inconsistent and lack explanations from the companies. Finally the process is costly and increasing in price due to cross overs and causing increased numbers of graded coins. AI needs to become the grading standard taking most of the human element out of grading.

[@ulexite-tv]

Yes to AI.

[@gregm8522]

Although “a new broom sweeps clean” is a truism in many phases of life, this truism grades on a curve in real life. This is especially true in politics - a dirty arena where a new broom results in a spruce up but hardly housewife level cleanliness. The Big Two in coin grading have gotten pretty comfy and I maintain from inspecting thousands of their slabs that there’s at least as much variation within P and N as there is between P and N. I think it’s too early to predict how all levels of the coin hobby and industry will judge CACG. For better or worse they are the new broom.

[@tho464]

I don’t like how grading companies mark some coins as cleaned but the coin looks more like it was rubbed through 100 years of circulation.

[@rickengen5249]

Thank you

[@leejackson2792]

I've been collecting for over 50 years. And I can remember an old timer telling me years ago that if a coin was handled to much he always concerned it to circulated

[@markng6435]

Buy the coin and Not the holders

[@johnlee4897]

Very informative. I'll make sure to avoid them at all costs and stick to NGC for my gold proofs.

[@michaelshields5921]

With these facts about the CAC coming out with grading issues , should they return the money or is this just a case of gambling you win some and the house usually wins most of the time ? It seems they cannot grade ungraded coins but are scamming for a green sticker on graded coins . Just my thoughts on every thing being reported . Danial your reporting is top notch , and I do watch others as well .

[@macarioacosta7767]

We as a community need to band together and refuse to purchase CAC sticker coins. In the long run we will only help ourselves and possibly remind the other grading companies that they do not control the market. We are already over paying for hyper inflated premiums. Thank you Daniel. Always thought provoking videos. Great job

[@Kenlydford]

I think cacg as a company just starting to have their own slabs are going to go through growing pains. I do prefer slabs without a sticker, some of them seem to be less of a pass around coin from one dealer to the next, inflating the price to the point that it costs more for that coin with a green bean than the same coin two grades higher without one. That is just nonsense.

[@louieatienza8762]

I think many folks don't have much of a clue about the whole stickering service. The service actually HELPS collectors who want quality coins for the grade, but maybe are not as adept at knowing the nuances of coin grading. For example, you an have two cons that are MS66, and one could be marginal for the grade with very weak details from a worn or over-polished die (but maybe nicely toned) and "orange-peel" fields, and one that could be relatively untoned but have sharp details, and nice smooth fields. Technically, the "very weak" strike should put said coin at MS65 max (you can watch PCGS Grading 101 if you do not believe me), but the TPGs use "market acceptability" to grade-bump said coin, which is horrendous in my view. So CAC was created to identify said solid coins for the grade with the green sticker, and exceptional under-graded coins with the gold sticker. Now folks may accuse John Albanese of having a soft-spot for early slabs, but the truth of the matter is, most all early slabs were very conservatively graded (as both of the top 2 were both founded or co-founded by Albanese.) And one huge reason why was because the whole ethos of slabbing was to allow the sight-unseen trading of coins like a commodity - meaning the stated grade was the minimum grade. Remember, that was 1986 and 1987, when most dealers bought coins over the phone with companies like TeleTrade. We didn't have high-speed internet, or high-resolution digital imaging. Today, technology makes it to where you can really look at the coin, and the TPGs (without Albanese) started grading coins on the higher end of the range. Great for dealers for maximizing profits, but bad for consumers that buy the number on the slab and not the coin within. And as our population gets dumber and dumber, they'll just look at the number on the slab only. Soon they'll be buying coin NFTs or something stupid like that.

[@joshuajones9035]

It’s a shame, I think cacg is trying too hard to be conservative and they are ruining the value of people’s life long collections, its just too frustrating

[@jeffkeller9009]

CAC, in my opinion, are probably grading harder to slow down their submissions being sent to them, So they don't look bad.

[@johnvassilliw9022]

All of these grading services are so confusing is the reason I no longer buy coins.

[@johnlarue2248]

I like the idea of a CAC coin, but I have been disappointed by some the coins I've seen. Personally, I only purchase PCGS or NGC. Just a personal preference. This almost sounds like CAC may be damaging their coins and sales, by questionable grading. Great idea to have select options, but when the grading is "questionable", It's a no sale for me. We have enough other alleged grading services that are at best questionable. Please don't "grade" your items, so that no one wants to buy them due to questionable items. Thanks Daniel for this post!

[@ZXC_ZXC1]

I guessed that coin dealers are not going to like CACG because there are very strict in grading. It's probably better to send them to PCGS and if warranted for CAC stickering. I recently sent 17 coins to CAC for stickering and all but 2 came back unstickered. The most common reason seems to be that coins were cleaned so their standards are very high. CAC coins sell for a big premium and even CAC's price guide is below what they sell for at shows and on coin dealer websites.

[@louieatienza8762]

The big problem with the CAC stickering is that the general public, and even serious collectors and some dealers don't quite understand it. And in a way it gets overused like a knee-jerk reaction, and abused by folks trying to lend credibility to their "toned" coins. As to CACG - I have exactly one coin in a CACG holder, a 1940 Jefferson nickel graded MS66, which is their top pop (though they have only 100 or so Jeffersons in their pop report.) I would say, in a PCGS or NGC holder, it'd probably be an MS67 5FS. But am I cracking it out to get a higher grade? Absolutely not. I was only a kid when I started collecting coins, before any slabs existed. But even then a "Gem" was a true gem, and MS65 was a really good grade. Today that same coin would be an MS66+ or MS67. Seeing a coin marked "Superb Gem" was almost unheard of. Now it's almost commonplace with some issues. It's not like hoards of coins are getting newly discovered. Kind of reminds me how the golf club industry had been scamming golfers. Ever wonder why you new 7 iron hits as far as your 5 iron from the 1980s? It's because they've delofted that 7 iron to the same loft angle as that 5 iron, and possibly almost as long a shaft (which they have to do with graphite shafts to get the correct swing weight because they're lighter). The USGA has limits on CoR and other measurements in a club. So you end up with a 3 iron that is almost impossible to hit (because it's like a 1 or 2 iron) and you have to buy expensive hybrids or fairway woods. No shock, golf is also on somewhat of a decline in participation, as it has been for quite some time. A lot of the inflated grading I feel stems from the Registry set game which becomes a contest for the uber-rich, bulk-grading which in my opinion has ruined the TPG industry, and "market" grading based mostly on so-called "eye appeal." But I've seen a lot of crap Jefferson nickels as well in CACG holders - coins I'd never send in myself. And I'm not sure if it's testing the waters, or just having one of the "first" Jeffersons slabbed. But if the inaugural coins graded are submitted by the original CACG members (of which is about 3,000), I cannot see for the life of me how any member who takes pride in receiving a green or gold jelly bean would send such junk to be graded? Can anyone explain that?

[@Billy-4]

Usually junk is sent in by very inexperienced coin grader who are not aware that it is junk. From their perspective the coin looks good. How has bulk grading ruined the TPG Industry?

[@louieatienza8762]

@@Billy-4 You can peruse eBay for coins that were once scarce for a certain grade but not anymore thanks to bulk-grading. I collect Jefferson nickels mainly. One example is 1961-D, which is notorious for being one of the ugliest issues ever minted. MS66 was once truly rare, but now, thanks to bulk-grading, there are a boatload of MS66 coins whose contents are not even worthy of MS64. TPGs may use catch-phrases such as "curve-grading" but it amounts to a pile of bunk. Basically a dealer would send a few rolls, of 1961-D (for example.) The dealer would specify a minimum grade on a pre-screen (go/no-go) basis where coins that don't meet the minimum grade are unslabbed and incur a minimum fee (I believe it's $2 right now.) This is done in an attempt to get a top pop, in this case MS67. So the dealer may "pepper" the rolls with a couple MS67 candidates, which is the only coins they really care about. The TPG, if they only graded two coins out of 120+ would get hammered. The dealer sets a minimum of MS66. What ends up is, the dealer ends up with one or two MS67s and 20-30 MS66s, because that benefits the TPG. The MS67s go to GC or Heritage, and the MS66s get blown out on eBay for a fraction of TPG valuation. It kills the value of true-graded MS66s by flooding the market with mediocre examples.

[@Billy-4]

Very interesting thank you. Do you also collect PR70 graded proof Jefferson’s from the 1970’s and 80’s ??

[@louieatienza8762]

@@Billy-4 I was never really into the whole proof game. I could sit for hours and not be able to tell between a PF69 and PF70. I focus mainly on full-steps.

[@thebrainreigns1858]

Good day podna this is very insightful news and Happy New Year !

[@michaelp772]

Getting details grade is always a crapshoot. Details should be reserved for when it's obvious.

[@grantv2313]

There’s tough and there’s unreasonable tough. I know there are tons of coins that have been messed with and should never be submitted. That being said, if the majority of pcgs and ngc straight grade crackouts, (which seems to be a feat in itself achieving straight grades with them) are getting details grades at CACG, they won’t last long. The market needs more viable coins not less. If they’re willing to say details cleaned on a proof set crack put then almost nothing has a legitimate chance. This doesn’t provide any benefit but to line the pockets of CACG.

[@BruceGordon925]

Let the seller sell ungraded coins, Get the price the buyer will pay. The buyer (IF) they want to, get them graded. There's too much greed in the grading system.

[@glenns.2676]

This just goes to show that stickers and grades are more or less pointless. The only value that these grading companies provide IMO are whether or not a coin is genuine. After that, it's eye appeal that should determine a coin's value, not some number or sticker. If CAC keeps grading this harshly and prices don't reflect the "premium", they won't have a grading service anymore

[@louieatienza8762]

Eye appeal really accounts for a small portion of an overall grade. For mint-state coins, surface preservation is the primary factor, followed by luster, strike, and toning. Eye appeal is kind of a combination of those four criteria. I think a coin that is near flawless and devoid of marks with deep luster and sharply struck, is just as beautiful as an album-toned coin. But really it's the level of preservation of the coin that is the primary factor for the coin's grade, by far. Where the industry got into trouble is the whole "market" grading that they still do today, where coins get "bumped" too much for toning. And both PCGS and NGC are guilty of this, but PCGS more so. NGC at least has a mechanism for accounting for exceptional eye appeal with their star designation - which does not affect the numerical grade of the coin. PCGS does not, so a coin that's a 66 or 66+ gets bumped to a 67 because of the toning. Speaking of toning, the unfortunate reality is that there are many coin doctors who are artificially toning coins. And many times, they are toning coins that are not quite superb gem to try to get them in a superb gem holder, and maybe distract from what would be a detrimental contact mark or stain or weak strike on a coin. And the toning game is pretty lucrative to coin doctors, since toned coins can fetch 200-500% markup or more over CPG. But said folks that buy these coins don't even look at the surface preservation of the coin, and ignore flaws because of the grade on the slab. That's not right either, and folks need to be more educated about collecting and get out of the "teletubby" mindset. My main area of interest is Jefferson nickels. I wouldn't use CAC because they do not follow the standard of 5 full steps being full steps - a standard created by the original full steps clubs of the 1970s-1980s. One big thing was the Adirondack hoard, a hoard of WW2 nickels that had all kinds of crazy technicolor toning. To me they look fake. But it only took the TPGs giving them stright grades to make them "market acceptable." And many of them got grade "bumps" for the toning.

[@Uduplr]

The CACG Coin holders are Very difficult to open because they Don’t want you to open and submit to PCGS for grading. It goes to show a Double Standard within CACG when you an crack one of their coin holders, graded as Details, and send to PCGS and obtain a high grade And Then send it, the coin CACG originally graded as Details, to CAD/CAM and Get a Green-bean, which means CACG agrees with the determined grade of that coin. I won’t use CAGC except to get a Green-bean or Possibly a Gold-bean sticker, agreeing with PCGS’s determination of the coins grade.

[@cgcoins3639]

When submitting to CACG is there an option for "do not holder genuine" like PCGS has? If so, just use that option and save some hassle trying to crack them out of a CACG slab... And my personal opinion, the harder it is to crack open a slab is something I'm all in favor of!

[@CoinHELPu]

I don’t know

[@back2thefutures805]

I commented on another video of this kind as well. We need to figure out an AI standard for everyone to use and bury the human element for accuracy (at the least to be fair to the hobby and the amount of $$ involved). Daniel is 100% accurate on this topic we just need consistency!

[@louieatienza8762]

The issue is, there's zero consistency with the way coins are manufactured. The 200,000th coin off the press and first coin off the press will likely look entirely different, yet they can receive the same technical grade. A frosty uncirculated and brilliant or proof-like uncirculated could have the same technical grade. Toning can be blast white, to virtually any combination of colors. One coin of a certain grade can have two nicks, while another can have three smaller ones, and get the same grade. And that's for every grade and "half-grade." So really, you can't truly have consistency, when the variables that make a certain grade are inconsistent themselves. What the TPGs want, is to churn out garbage, because the well of unsearched and ungraded coins are drying up. Then because an AI robot assigns a grade, the uneducated populace will just accept it, because they have become human "robots," and not question the grade. Then those that do question the grades would get stigmatized.

[@RetroHabit82]

There is a certain Bay Area dealer who had high grade CACG coins at FUN that were in fact nice and original but this dealer also has stake in the company too so....

[@brictator]

thanks daniel. i'm glad I don't care

[@mikebrooks8450]

Coin grading is a racket. PCGS and NGC have already sold out to big dealers. CAC is just following the trend and milking the system. Buy coins you love and enjoy. Let the shysters make their money off other folks who want to buy stickers.

[@CoinHELPu]

Big coin dealers don't own PCGS no NGC, they were sold to investment conglomerates and individual investors. So this is incorrect.

[@mikebrooks8450]

@@CoinHELPu Thanks for your note. My comment was not intended to imply that PCGS/NGC are owned by the big dealers. I was expressing that fact that PCGS and NGC give significant advantages (speed, price, labeling, and most likely a higher percentage of top grades) to the large dealers that other customers cannot get. Thanks for all you do! Stay Amazing!

[@flippensweet3]

Wow! That is a epic failure on CACs part, they sticker coins that they won't grade. Seems like they are on a huge cash grab right now.

[@freekingawwsome]

Thank you for the share @CoinHELPu my thoughts are not happy with some graders charging for getting cleaned au-details when they wre not shown that way in auction as they were even sent to grading from the auctioneer

[@Evom777]

Clearly there's an issue with the graders who are stickering and the graders who are encapsulating, as both are not adhering to the company's grading standards consistently. Depending on the series, I can see high grades in a CACG holder commanding a good premium, whereas trying to get a good premium for an 1881 S Morgan, MS 64 CACG isn't going to happen. Who's going to pay a premium for that coin when they can get the same coin for the same price graded MS 65 in a NGC or PCGS holder? Why is anyone wasting their money sending CACG common coins at this point? (Especially moderns) 🙄

[@bbartlow0307]

Finally sinking in. In the past many coins wouldn't get the green sticker at the requested grade. Fine. That's b/c CAC didn't control the grade, just the bean. And many/most didn't get the bean/CAC approval. My first concern about the new CACG was "Wait, now that every coin automatically gets a (printed) sticker (i.e., CAC approval) how does this not devalue all the existing, relatively rare and previously awarded beans? Beaned coins will be ubiquitous. Now I have the answer. Because now they do control the grade, which is the great equalizer. Something had to give and it was the grade. Interesting how this plays out, and whether people will regard physical stickers and printed stickers as equal. My guess is that the CACG holder will be preferred over a stickered NGC but NOT a stickered PCGS, certain exceptions notwithstanding. If their standards remain (unrealistically?) high, perhaps both but they might end up shooting themselves in the foot by discouraging submissions. I have very mixed feelings about their entrance in modern coins. It seems as though the qualitative differences in freshly minted modern coins is already splitting hairs, at least for the most popular coins produced by the U.S Mint post 2004. In any event, I'd be curious about CACG's definition of an MS or PF 70. PCGS defines a 70 as "as minted"... but slightly imperfect minting processes all but guarantees small, almost meaningless variations at 5x. Then again, I'm not sure how a grading company could make it without grading the moderns. And maybe that's all there is to it. One thing is certain: We all benefit from choice and competition.

[@buyystocks]

They are trying to make a statement

[@bingo7799]

Between the grading companies and the Chinese it's getting harder to do coin collecting.

[@CoinHELPu]

Not at all, but what you like.

[@jayamansinghani3118]

Happy new year, sir have a nice work day.🕐🗼🗼🕐🙏🏿🙏🏿🙏🏿

[@bl7121]

When CAC stickers came out there was an uproar. Then things settled down. I think the same will happen here. Once the company grows it will be sold. Same as PCGS and NGC.

[@jamesnewell7686]

Daniel-- I cant seeing paying 100 - 200 dollar premium jus for their holder :(

[@brentstraddle1462]

Thank you for sharing!

[@jimmycapps7263]

Yep they are mopping the floor with PCGS an NGC lol. This is the right time for ANACS to bring back there rep. ANACS has been doing much better imo but needs a better looking holder...

[@Tyrock67]

Anacs ruined their reputation years ago by not having competent graders. The market probably will never change their perception of Anacs, but I use them for common coins.

[@don951]

No. CACG is still small peanuts compared to PCGS and NGC. They are still trying to figure it out.

[@motokenzo763]

To my knowledge there are no published grading standards...# contact marks, luster, frostiness, strike, color, etc... This just emphasizes grading is just an opinion, subject to change, company to company, day to day. While graded coins typically bring a premium for value added to sellers and are possibly better for the unexperienced. It's buyer beware...there's also the issue counterfeit coins and/or holders.

[@robertcook5201]

Cracked out 5 PCGS Details coins sent to PCGS, 3 came back graded, go figure.

[@andrewmacomber1638]

This is why I’m a pure stacker and not a coin collector.

[@ulexite-tv]

And if you stack "for pretty" you can have nice raw coins that you like.

[@joelp6197]

Yes, I had a bad time with them, not a dealer just a life long collector.

[@coincollectingfun]

Big like number 168! Excellent information and thank you so much for sharing!

[@ltcol2005]

people have cracked out Ngc details to pcgs and gotten a straight grade and vis versa. it just shows how subjective coin grading is and coin inflation. the dealers that solely sell raw coins will suffer most because unless you have a keen eye for grading then buyer beware.

[@thisismonitor4099]

It's one thing to claim you are being very strict with grades - that's fine. However it is quite another to be inconsistent to the extent that you grade a bunch of coins as cleaned and then give the same coins green beans effectively blessing a clean grade when they are instead put in PCGS or NGC slabs. I also have a problem with any grading service that only grades US coins. Okay you can argue that people can specialize in various things but only grading US coins means there is a problem for collectors that don't just focus on US coinage.

[@firstcavcoins3554]

I wouldn't even consider sending a coin to cac for grading. Unless I had endless $$

[@-BigMike-]

Whoever invents a feasible and accurate AI grading system is gonna be a multimillionaire.

[@CoinHELPu]

Yep!

[@don951]

CACG either figures it out or the service won't make it. I see they just lowered their prices, so they must already be seeing things slow. PCGS is still the king. Cheers!

[@Death_From_Below]

I think the comments about sending in proof sets and getting back details coins is just wrong and more people need to be made aware.

[@TheModbeats]

Eventually, all grading will be done by AI. This type of variance in coin grades between the top grading services is going to drive the market in that direction.

[@jeffw1267]

I've bought some of these slabs, and the grading is VERY conservative. That's what I want as a buyer, and I'm willing to pay extra for these slabs if it's not a ridiculous premium. It seems that CACG doesn't grade looser on key dates the way PCGS and NGC do, and the 1914-D cent I just bought is evidence of that. When I sell this coin, some dealer will be very happy.

[@johnwachter6369]

but it's usually a ridiculous premium....

[@user-tl7mj2bm4m]

I've seen the SAME thing with sport cards...AND the grading companies. I'll give you ONE word - inconsistency.......or lack THEREOF. Enough said... Pretty well screwed up....frankly in my opinion. But if ANY of you feel the stupidity of an excessive NEED to have that elusive "green" sticker...give me a call. I"m certain my son can print them ALL DAY LONG on his printer....and we'll place them on your precious coin...ALL DAY LONG.....for a PRICE. For the sake of normalcy..and sanity, people - SOBER up!

[@jermainerobinson3825]

Thanks Daniel,...appreciate the KNOWLEDGE sir,..HAPPY NEW YEARS to ALL🎉

[@jamesgoss1860]

Uh oh, you brought up AU50, allow a slight rant... I hate the AU50 grade, it's a meaningless grade. Where's the line between XF45 and AU50? Even PCGS doesn't know. PCGS definition of AU50: Trace of wear now seen on higher points of design. Bits of luster may remain PCGS definition of XF45: High points of design show light wear. A bit of luster may still be visible in protected areas It's like copying a statement and rewording it slightly to avoid plagiarizing. It's the same thing!

[@CoinHELPu]

What’s the definition for EF47? Yeah I hear ya.

[@Tyrock67]

PCGS and NGC have been doing market grading for some years now. It seems CACG isn't which is good, but they do seem to be overly strict. Many dealers want to play the "crack out game" for profit and CACG doesn't fit their game plan.

[@CoinHELPu]

lol. You missed the part where CAC stickered a coin they labeled a problem coin. Nothing has really changed.

[@KriswithaK4821]

Exactly why do not and never will buy graded coins.

[@DevoShire]

Bah! Humbug! But seriously…how many ‘unboxing’ videos donI see where the submitter / dealer says “I didn’t think this coin would …” And they do The coin is the same, but with now three different opinions 1) what the submitter thought. 2) what the TPG said 3) what the submitter NOW thinks And the TPG, much like the casino, makes money with every bet. I just collect coins…

[@Charley_Buehner]

CACG appears to be aiming for the "best of the best of the best" in the market, which immediately disqualifies 95% of the industry. If they're only going to be beneficial to the coins that would warrant a PCGS "MS72" (MS70++? LOL) it won't take long before the MS69 level coins don't get sent to them at all. I haven't heard any mention of what they're charging for the grading service, but I suspect as more and more write them off a waste of money, they'll be forced to raise their prices even more, alienating even more of their potential market. They've set the bar too high, and it looks like it could turn out to be unsustainable.

[@freemanfornow264]

How about addressing the real bigger issue. Why can't there be an OBJECTIVE guide that reigns in the inconsistency?

[@gregm8522]

In one respect there is an objective guide - it’s called cash. Ultimately the desire of the buyer to buy (his perception of eye appeal; I need this issue; I like this dealer) and the desire of the seller to sell (I’m having a bad show; I’ve got to reduce my inventory) arrive at a mutually acceptable price for any given coin that may transcend the logic of price guides and labeled grade.

[@CoinHELPu]

I have, in multiple videos.

[@freemanfornow264]

@@man-lt5qy ABSOLUTELY

[@freemanfornow264]

@@CoinHELPu sorry Daniel yes I know you have I was really just rhetorically speaking to the hobby as a whole.....

[@marcharkins2882]

Thanks Daniel good stuff

[@donnywolf9250]

Is it just me or does CaC frown upon toned coins? They definetly seem to downgrade coins that are toned. Idk....I'm an NGC guy myself....

[@TS1r731]

Stickers man 🤦‍♂️

[@mitchmaynard5326]

I welcome all grading companies it is all a part of the game. Holder, no holder, at the end of the day the public truly decides the value.

[@libertyresearch-iu4fy]

Greysheet has different prices for "normal" grades and the same "CAC" grade. I'll never understand that.

[@CoinHELPu]

CAC stickered coins sell for more. So they have their own price. CAC signifies a choice coin for the grade.

[@kurtreese7408]

Buy the COIN, not the slab

[@coin.guy8411]

I use a scroll saw.

[@bingo7799]

I get the feeling that cacg is just trying to make the other guys look sloppy to gain more market share. In response we will probably see the other guys get hyper tough just to save face and the submitters are the ones paying the price. Eventually we might just see fewer submissions and collectors will just go back to deciding the condition and value of the coin themselves.

[@marc-bs8bj]

Buy the coin, not the holder!!!