Some Thoughts on Jordan Peterson

[@Kafei]

I love how you emphasized "identity." I immediately thought of how atheists make sacred their identity in atheism itself, obsessing over it with pride, making sure to remind themselves daily that they're atheists, and engaging in political activism in the name of atheism, etc.

[@zenconfidential25]

The religion of atheism.

[@Kafei]

@@zenconfidential25 Agreed. You asked for a perspective within spirituality, are you familiar with the Perennial philosophy or what's known as the Primordial tradition? Just a suggestion, since you asked in the video.

[@zenconfidential25]

@@Kafei Thank you. I read Huxley's book Perennial Philosophy. Sorta familiar with the concept but in an ancillary way, Joseph Campbell, Jung, Karen Armstrong etc. It seems right to me but there's never anything I can do with it, like I can't figure out a way to practice and live a Perennial philosophy. I always find myself drifting back to Zen practice.

[@Teller3448]

Friedrich Nietzsche talked about the 'dominance hierarchy' long before Peterson. Here is a quote... “And do you know what “the world” is to me? Shall I show it to you in my mirror? This world: a monster of energy, without beginning, without end; a firm, iron magnitude of force that does not grow bigger or smaller, that does not expend itself but only transforms itself; as a whole, of unalterable size, a household without expenses or losses, but likewise without increase or income; enclosed by “nothingness” as by a boundary; not something blurry or wasted, not something endlessly extended, but set in a definite space as a definite force, and not a space that might be “empty” here or there, but rather as force throughout, as a play of forces and waves of forces, at the same time one and many, increasing here and at the same time decreasing there; a sea of forces flowing and rushing together, eternally changing, eternally flooding back, with tremendous years of recurrence, with an ebb and a flood of its forms; out of the simplest forms striving toward the most complex, out of the stillest, most rigid, coldest forms striving toward the hottest, most turbulent, most self-contradictory, and then again returning home to the simple out of this abundance, out of the play of contradictions back to the joy of concord, still affirming itself in this uniformity of its courses and its years, blessing itself as that which must return eternally, as a becoming that knows no satiety, no disgust, no weariness: this, my Dionysian world of the eternally self- creating, the eternally self-destroying, this mystery world of the twofold voluptuous delight, my “beyond good and evil,” without goal, unless the joy of the circle is itself a goal; without will, unless a ring feels good will toward itself- do you want a name for this world? A solution for all of its riddles? A light for you, too, you best-concealed, strongest, most intrepid, most midnightly men?- This world is the will to power-and nothing besides! And you yourselves are also this will to power-and nothing besides!”

[@zenconfidential25]

I was pretty into Nietzsche in college. What a writer!

[@Teller3448]

@@zenconfidential25 Nietzsche consider himself to be an Anti-Buddha. To Nietzsche, suffering is a sacrifice to the sacredness of life. To the Buddha, suffering is what proves the profanity of life. The word profane comes from the Latin 'profanum' which means 'outside the temple'.

[@box-of-chocolates]

Opinions are addictive, even just having opinions is addictive (and it can all be explained with evolutionary psychology, too, btw). But what evolutionary psychologists often don’t teach us, is that - although it’s hard - we do have a choice to tell our our biological programs to shut up for a moment. 
 So to outsmart nature, for me it’s about training myself not just to hold my opinions lightly but even regularly checking in every situation whether an opinion is even needed at all. I would argue that most of the time during an average day, I don’t need to have opinions ("Avoid picking and choosing“). Of course e.g. in my job, I have to make certain decisions (e.g. grade students), those are the moments when I need to consciously form an opinion or a judgement. Or on election day. Or when I want to decide whether I want to take part in a rally or buy a new pair of shoes. But apart from these more or less important but also rather limited moments when the present situation calls for an assessment to move forward, I can just refrain from having opinions. It’s hard but not impossible. Even opinions about Buddhism. My brain also wants me to think that Buddhism would be "the best“ for everyone, but didn’t the Buddha also warn about that? Shouldn’t we question every doctrine including the Buddhist teachings as well?

[@zenconfidential25]

Yes, well put. Hold my opinions lightly to the point where I can chuck them quickly!

[@zenconfidential25]

And yes, you hit the nail on the head. Our own ideas, or at least my own ideas, about Buddhism have got to be questioned. Looking back on this video I was pretty dogmatic about Buddhism. I guess that was the mood I was in that day, but it's kind of gross to look at now!

[@ninasnow9055]

YES to the middle way ALL the WAY in every WAY!!

[@Iamnickdude09]

I went to a JP lecture last week and I can tell you that being in his presence you really get a true feeling for who he really is, which is a brilliant, kind and caring man who is just trying to help humanity get their shit together in the way he knows how. I had the pleasure to meet him after the show and I gave him a hug followed by a bow. He closed his eyes and bowed right back to me.

[@zenconfidential25]

That's wonderful, thank you for sharing that. What you're saying is more often than not the sense I've gotten from him & his work. Sounds like you guys were bowing to each other like a pair of old monks!

[@ralphwiggum1007]

Jordan Peterson's books and Self Authoring program are helping me sort my life out in a way that Zen alone cannot. Yes we are all going to die some day, I think the intention of his books is to see to it that fewer people become worm food before their time. Zen is great but decisions have to be made in life, often immediately, and understanding the lessons of psychology can really help you make better choices in a way that Zen just can't because it speaks to a problem older than modern society. I enjoy your videos, and I like you. Just wanted to join the dialogue. Keep up the good work brother.

[@zenconfidential25]

Lots of food for thought here, thank you. I'm glad you're in JPs self authoring program. What about it works for you? How does it speak to problems older than modern society, as you put it? No worries if you don't want to explain here, I'm just curious.

[@ralphwiggum1007]

When I say problems older than modern society, I mean Zen didn't account for the industrial revolution and having to know how to navigate social and work life. Zen is good at helping understand that something exist beyond a dualistic world, and I think I'm learning the strength in stillness and passivity. But I'm also at the very bottom rung of the work and social world and barely hanging on. I cant afford to fix my broken teeth because struggle to advance at work more than other people. The problem has been that I never learned what my useful or valuable personality traits were or how I could benefit from them. The self authoring challenges me to figure out what I have to work with so I can put together a plan that will work socially, practically, economically. I'm beginning to understand that I'm capable of more than a dead end minimum wage job. I can work around my weaknesses and use my strengths to the best advantage. Zen just doesn't help you think in this very specific way. I suppose it helps with something deeper, but social issues are no less real and no less important. Peop!e idolize Peterson in a weird way. But he's a cool dude who figured out a way to get people therapy if maybe they can't afford a therapist. Plus he knows a lot of interesting stuff, I love listening to the guy talk.

[@ruairi_]

the problem with "centrism" is that...nothing changes. nothing gets fixed. nothing moves forward. and people get hurt, get oppressed, get excluded. that's not the middle way i signed up for.

[@zenconfidential25]

But who said anything about centrism? Fiercely practicing the Middle Way and centrism are hardly synonymous.

[@ruairi_]

@@zenconfidential25 ok, so its probably semantics, but "centrism" is the word many use for the political aspect of what you are saying (meeting the right and left in the middle ground on issues) so to me, you said something about "centrism". And for me, centrism is a dead end ideology. Dems, Labour in Europe etc, nothing moves forward, nothing improves. Business as usual. And trans peoples lives get worse. If we were to have compassion for trans people, we could not meet in the middle with the right, imo.

[@zenconfidential25]

@@ruairi_ Good points. Arguably centrism is politics at its worst. It's politicians compromising at a cost to everyone. I think maybe a true statesperson can find common ground. Those are two different things for me -- finding common ground and politics as usual. I think even trans people and people on the right can find common ground. Common ground, maybe that's the term I was searching for in this vid.

[@ruairi_]

@@zenconfidential25 i agree that the middle way needs to find some solution to this stuff, but many on the right simply do not want trans people to have rights. What could the common ground possibly be? I just don't think it exists, myself. And with that said, i have to work out how do i engage with that situation.

[@zenconfidential25]

@@ruairi_ Thank you, I think that's a really good question. It's like a koan. What could the common ground possibly be? For me, I take this question completely seriously, it's not a rhetorical question. I begin to have to venture into different ways of approaching the question in order to answer it. I'm not in my political mind anymore. Doesn't mean I don't vote a certain way or donate to certain causes or care any less about anyone's rights or safety or justice. But it means that I can't answer that question of common ground with my usual mindset. So I think that that question is the heart of the matter. Dead center. What is the common ground?

[@Pam74055]

Amen and Amen 🙏

[@Nutty_commrenter]

I don't know what to think of JP. I find him arrogant and am embarrassed that he's Canadian, (as am I). I suppose he is a bit of a sensation on the internet, but like Shozan says, he's just a prof.

[@zenconfidential25]

It's a sticky wicket! Thanks for you thoughts.

[@philipk917]

Thank you for sharing your thoughts, opinions and feelings. Well Wishes for you and yours. 💓💓💓

[@zenconfidential25]

Thank you Philip!

[@mattrkelly]

I swear to god, a golden retriever came up to me right after one showed up here on the screen with you...

[@zenconfidential25]

Kismet!!

[@Mimi-xs7gi]

He reminds me of a crying yelling Evangelist….🫢

[@zenconfidential25]

I never thought of it that way!

[@AlejandroSanchez-xn4zz]

Check out his counterpart, Gabor Maté, you'll probably love him ✨

[@zenconfidential25]

Yes I like that guy! But I agree with him too much, so I find myself getting a little bit bored!

[@corqMcc]

Wow this was fantastic. A dynamic talk I resonate with.

[@zenconfidential25]

Wow, thank you!

[@axislivedotorg]

I liked this At the end I noticed myself telling you “don’t finish by apologizing saying ‘sorry for this rant’”

[@zenconfidential25]

And apologize I did!!

[@hoogreg]

A few years ago Peterson said something like, "I know I'm on this wild ride that just sprang up, and it's very exciting, but it can fall apart at any time, and I'm not really in control" in an interview. So I have quite a bit of sympathy for him as a human, and that was before the benzo addiction and outside medical intervention.

[@zenconfidential25]

Yes, he really got thrown into something big. I thought a lot about the benzo addiction phase and how ungracious some commentators were about it. Thanks for your comment.

[@Enzan55]

Thanks for not being stupid at all. Really, I personally enjoyed everything. Thanks!

[@zenconfidential25]

No worries! I excell in promising but not delivering on stupidity!! ;)

[@Enzan55]

@@zenconfidential25 Haha!

[@vytautasbaipsys]

taip, yes

[@JordanREALLYreally]

Right on. Though one of my fears is that the only thing that one side hates more than the other side is the one with no sides! It's all a trap!!! And still, I can find my own, as you say, synthesis. Now your Peterson improv was not bad... just had a little Swedish Chef going on.

[@zenconfidential25]

"the only thing that one side hates more than the other side is the one with no sides" -- Thich NH made this same point when he was in the Vietnam War.

[@JordanREALLYreally]

BOOM! Inka here I come!

[@babamcrielly8804]

Do Adyashanti next🙏

[@zenconfidential25]

that’s a pretty good idea. don’t know enough about him though.

[@karlgustav9960]

Hm, I looked into antinatalism lately because close person is in deep emotional stress and she mentioned that having kids is irresponsible because they will suffer in this world (samsara). Intuitively I knew there is something wrong with antinatalism because it basically states that there is so much suffering aka “bad” and so few joy aka “good” in this world, that non existence (basically not beeing born as a sentient) is best, and procreation therefor brings nothing but suffering to this world. But there is a fallacy: pain and joy are not adversaries. The absence of pain is not joy, but boredom and meaningless numbness and vice versa. So what you said struck a chord for me because what we should really seek is equilibrium, but a dynamic one (the dance) and not the absence of suffering. Without dark, there is no light and vice versa and without pain we can not experience joy. Maybe in the middle of both lies satisfaction, that calm but very energetic and dynamic experience some have during meditation?

[@zenconfidential25]

That's perfect. A dynamic equilibrium. I think that and seeking the ceasing of suffering are maybe saying the same thing differently.

[@karlgustav9960]

@@zenconfidential25 I think you have to take into consideration wether you are dealing with sane people or psychopaths. Yes, the do exists, and the cause lots of the suffering in this world, bringing very little or no pleasure and certainly no balance (their goal is to get their way 100%) I have so far not found a way to deal with them except avoiding them as much as possible. If people can be called that they are a true evil in this world.

[@guido3771]

To come to the conclusions of antinatalism, that is the irony, you have to be born first. And then, of course, your pleasure might even outweigh the pain.

[@JordanREALLYreally]

Listening further (past the time of my last comment), I definitely agree with you. I was kind of addicted to Peterson for the same reasons you stated.... and then, idk something felt off. And you just described what that is. He has a pretty negative view of the source or the self. Then he had a massive break down and kind of blamed it on taking little bits of Xanax? idk... But he is addictive (or was) in this time.

[@oldmenproductions5766]

"little bits of Xanax" to say something like that you must be a pretty ignorant, purposefully uneducated ass

[@joeg3950]

In religious studies/theology circles, what is called ‘civil religion’ is treating the system as sacred the national government, system, and patriotism - turning it into a religion. Not siding in the duality is still taking a position, a side!, where you can measure and evaluate the the situation and ideology to help you in your investigation. Relax bro! Plus, I wholeheartedly admit that I forgot to get the list of texts for you that you asked for in my last comment. Keep on truckin’

[@kippost8907]

Your Sir, are all over the place. Try dialing it back a notch.

[@zenconfidential25]

Where’s the fun in that?

[@ratatoskrgodtroll6198]

☺️💜🙏🏼

[@Vladimyrful]

Solid impression 😂😂

[@zenconfidential25]

6 out of 10! ;)

[@normanleach5427]

[Dominance hierarchy and a 'spirited' aim or goal oriented religion ranging from disciplined competence to a practiced 'expertise'. There's a lot of subtle 'me-ness' involve even though humility is alluded to as an abstract tool for advancement.] Your centrist argument tolerates the confluence of, say, competition and cooperation, for example which is fine..but for responsiblity invoved in situational ethics. Non- duality for the archetypal Taoist, might entail one who duly notes the convergence of opposites as aspects of attentive observation -- that neither is an actuality but rather a manifestation of a nen seedling thought, or impulse-thought -- which can then be conceptualized as an expressed tendency and feedback-loop displayed as an established cultural condition. Sponteneous wisdom or 'flow' is quite natural. Oneness features an ontologically sound constancy. Such Sensibility, (where one's mindfulness consists of observational purity while also recognizing the generalities and specificity of expression) requires allowing for and relying upon the vast pervasiveness of peace to readily ensure. A dualistic consideration may begin as a snippet of acknowledgement prior one's initiating a sense of control through discernment as it stretches further on as the polarization of a judgment or the inclination to become hardwired or a-fixed to an particular idea/metaphor/narrative opinion. Lighten up is sound advice. However, to suggest that one never resists a sociopath with criminal intent or welcome the unchecked propagandist who would systematically to the dismantle a free society...my jury is still deliberating the utility of transparency and compassion.

[@zenconfidential25]

Thank you.

[@readthetype]

Isn’t that like saying _“Even if you don’t believe in the concept of_ ‘big,’ _the biggest thing on your list is still bigger than the other things.”?_ I’m not certain that’s terribly profound.

[@zenconfidential25]

I'm not certain it is either.

[@themunchieman6767]

only just come across your channel thanks for sharing I'm in a battle of some sort between a higher power and atheism I used to truly believe in a higher power then came across the atheist experience and that made sense somehow but definitely felt more disconnected since then ? any input from anyone would be greatly appreciated ❤️✌️

[@zenconfidential25]

Zen Mind Beginner's Mind is a great book to touch on spiritual issues but from a perspective that might appeal to your atheist side. Good luck. Feeling disconnected ain't fun.

[@themunchieman6767]

@@zenconfidential25 Thanks very much. I'll take a look at that now and it definitely isn't, but I'm sure the information I need is out there so I'll keep on searching.

[@archonofvoid]

How do you see this in relation to taoism instead? Also I believe calling Jordan any professor is reductive, the man is brilliant. And I say that as someone who totally disagrees with his hierarchical arguments. If i may you should listen to his podcasts/lectures. You would understand he is not really pushing aggressiveness

[@zenconfidential25]

I one hundred percent agree. His lectures are where he truly manifests, and that’s how I found out about him long ago in the first place. I think his Bible series is fascinating. I don’t agree with it necessarily, but it’s quite probing, especially his talk on Cain and Abel. In answer to your question I’m not sure how I see it in relation to Taoism. I’ll have to contemplate that.

[@cyrilgcoombsiii]

It’s all fun and games until our Lobster overlords return! Seriously, I find myself putting other people or ideas on a pedestal; eventually I loosen my views and I’m like oh wait that’s not quite right; I adjust and repeat; maybe it’s my karma but just a pattern I notice in my life

[@Vladimyrful]

I think the reason the word 'dominance' gets interpreted as "forcefull, merciless competiton of power" is why Peterson started referring to the concept as "Competence Hierarchy" as it more accurately describes what he meant. Here's a short where he explains it: kzbin.infodfap4cr7gZY I thorougly enjoyed your thoughts!

[@zenconfidential25]

Thank you I will check it out!

[@Vladimyrful]

@@zenconfidential25 No worries. There are longer ones where he breaks it down more, but I thought this gets the point across.

[@rodcinco-gr5lq]

Please read about Carl Jung.

[@zenconfidential25]

Been there

[@lordn3m3sis]

I think you faltered a bit on the hierarchies part as J.P. point on that is simply that the idea that hierarchies are a product of the patriarchal western world dominated by white supremacists is absolutely untenable as hierarchical structures exist in nature since millions of years ago and that the evolutionary evidence of that is overwhelming, he never claimed that it's fixed or anything but that' it is just the natural way in which we organize our societies, he also clarifies that hierarchies are neither good or bad in nature because it's the use that we make of them that determines the outcome and he points out many times that it's well known that hierarchies have a tendency to become tyrannical and that's why we need political discourse to keep them in check. He never uses it as a deterministic argument, it's only obvious that hierarchies to a degree are inevitable, I mean how else are you going to organize societies without an underlying structure? So it's not that he defends hierarchies or any of the ridiculous portrayals that the media made of it, he just states facts to support his position that hierarchies exist in nature and are not the product of capitalism to put it in short, it's never portrayed from a political perspective

[@zenconfidential25]

I hear you, generally speaking he doesn't focus on the dom. hierarchy. But in 12 Rules for Life he really drives the point home early on when he says (something like) the dom. hierarchy is as close to an absolute truth as we will ever have. He then implicitly builds a lot of his arguments around this point. He does say that hierarchies can become tyrannical and need to be held in check, but generally he seems to err on the side of supporting existing power structures and letting (as Cornel West calls it) "predatory capitalism" completely off the hook. That's one place where he loses me. Hierarchies are inevitable to a degree, but I think he uses that argument to reach uninspiring and retrograde conclusions. For me, when he's attacking postmodernism etc. in a heartfelt way, he's at his best. But when I scratch the surface of his thought I often find the same problems I found with Nietzsche, Christianity, existentialism etc.

[@lordn3m3sis]

@@zenconfidential25 I see your point

[@zenconfidential25]

@@lordn3m3sis ... that said, I shouldn't have called him a clown. ;)

[@mixedmattaphors]

I think you could get a little overgeneralized about some of these things (the abstract "you," not in reference to you, or your video, except as an idea in response to some of what you were talking about), when you think of it as just two sides that represent the polarities and are somewhat neutral, or equally balanced. The whole system is based on a monopoly of power, so it's all corrupt right away, because it's literally saying, as its maxim, its *first* maxim (and I'm using the Kant word, here, "maxim," that I just saw that he seems to use, sometimes), but I'm being true, here, lol-"Rules for thee, and not for me," me being anyone given the magic powers of "I am working on behalf of the idea," rather than the group of people calling themselves the representatives, of it, whether it be the police, the "politicians," or etc. ANYWAY, then to look at that as composing some composite picture that we can work out as "the Truth" is a huge fallacy, and it gets you to think, "Well, there must be some good on the spectrum of sending people to jail for having a plant, or saying that it is protected by us same people to hurt an innocent child because the mother doesn't want it."

[@zenconfidential25]

Very good points, thank you.

[@mixedmattaphors]

Thanks, yeah, I just was thinking about the idea of sort of assuming that because there seems to be a spectrum, the spectrum contains the valid truth.@@zenconfidential25

[@nubedelluvia1884]

A fluid point of view means that it does not draw a priori conclusions, that it contemplates a thought or a phenomenon from different perspectives and that it walks on the razor's edge of a lucid and open mind. Unfortunately what you find among endorsed experts is the opposite. They are there because they are spokespersons for something they may believe, but they certainly learned well. They are parrots 🦜. The primitive and crude idea behind our culture has to do with sin and power. We are the human beings ....and there you put all the negative qualifiers you want....that is not true any, and therefore we need a power to subjugate us.... In reality we have not yet come out of this false but productive principle that structures our societies. An ugly world that becomes reality in many human destinies and biographies. And in the midst of all the mud and filth suddenly appears a rose for a short time....There were and are everywhere... Noooooooooo, There are bodhissattvas and also the moment-to-moment of the now. "In empty space you cannot stick a needle" ( Wanshi Shogaku). Breathe, find your rhythm and welcome to life...and if you don't want to be a bodhissattva, no problem.... because if you want to stay healthy, there is no other, it's how life is organized....

[@ejenkins4711]

Take a dive into jung that should give you plenty to think about bro

[@zenconfidential25]

Already taken that dive, bro.

[@ejenkins4711]

@@zenconfidential25 good man, seems he was accurate about the coming change in the collective psyche. God help us all when the darkside of the feminine rises in the political world.

[@susandrydenhenderson6234]

Here is an example of somebody who has much to learn. He hasn’t understood or fully listened to any of the people or philosophies he mentions. He’s a great example of a little knowledge being dangerous. The lad is typical sweary student of his day, who wants to opine before comprehending. He gives the impression of wanting a religion or a scientific study that says anything goes so that he can think himself a fine fellow. He fails to understand the difference between an indisputable fact demonstrated by scientific study and what somebody wishes was the case. He definitely hasn’t much studied the religions or sciences he mentions. The poor lad is a bit of a very angry muddled mess. “I feel like ….” . I, I, I, I, I…..🙄

[@zenconfidential25]

Well said!!

[@thegoatstore7814]

@@zenconfidential25 Dr.Peterson taught at the university of toronto not at a college......the university poked him first.....he was minding his own business when the university decided to tell him what words he was allowed to speak in class. And boom here are! I'm grateful people are speaking up and not staying quiet.....it's hard to do what you just done on youtube with no paper in hand so that's cool....I don't agree with you but it's all good. Cheers!

[@4kassis]

Sure, a little Buddhism could loosen up some people. But come on, zen has never got anyone to dance or play…not since basho anyway….

[@zenconfidential25]

I'm dancing and playing this very moment!!

[@4kassis]

@@zenconfidential25 may I have this dance?

[@jesuisravi]

I can't stand him.

[@timwalters3230]

peterson is in the middle.

[@CaptMang]

JP is the epitome of someone who can't let go of anger. He's intelligent, but his cup is always full (with a very problematic naturalism). Because of these two factors, he's basically just a contrarian self-help author at best. There's a reason so many of his "followers" are of a certain type. Also the lobster thing is totally ridiculous....

[@zenconfidential25]

But the man knows a lot about Pinocchio…

[@CaptMang]

😂@@zenconfidential25

[@Nooneself]

You are clinging on to your Buddhist beliefs. No human understands life, death and the Universe. Let the BS of thinking we human's have any insight go....just be🖖 Best WISHES

[@zenconfidential25]

Can't argue with that!

[@Enzan55]

By the way, this guy, Jordan Peterson, in my opinion probably can't relax because he's kind of heavily traumatized. By relaxing for "real", he would probably relive everything that was emotionally bad in his childhood (same thing for many people, if not the majority). Have a good day! :)

[@zenconfidential25]

That could be, there does seem to be some tension under the surface. Thank you Felix.

[@Enzan55]

@@zenconfidential25 You're welcome!