Sonic the Hedgehog - a train wreck of a game series.

[@Jenovi]

Hey Y'all, I was having a ton of trouble with Final Cut while editing this video. Yesterday, the video was done, but then the program crashed and I had a hard time loading it back. When I got it back, a ton of stuff was missing, broken, and it appeared the video edit was rolled back to a prior state. I though I fixed it all, but there appears to be one segment I missed at 15:58-16:09. The quote was from Akinori Nishiyama.

[@Larry]

Sonic 4 was a huge slap in the face, they saw the popularity Mega Man 9 had recieved, than rather than work on something similar, all they did was just port over a mobile phone game already in development. and then make it episodic. (Eurogamer also gave it 9/10) IF Sonic 4 has been akin to what Sonic Mania is, then this would have been an entirely different story. But it is a case of a lot of classic properties, the fans are doing a better job than the publishers are.

[@pferreira1983]

It looked like a mobile phone game. Sonic 4 is definitely one of the worst Sonic games.

[@RickyMcSpanish]

Really love your stuff dude and saw the comment re final burn which I'm guessing is probably the reason why the music plays too loud throughout and had to put subtitles on! Regardless great episode!

[@Jenovi]

Yeah, it appears there's an audio issue. Unfortunate really. Thank you for the comment and for watching.

[@sparksterz]

lol the timing of this video just before Nintendo gives an update on a movie >.> JeNoVi whY cANt yOu PrEDicT thE fUTuRE?!? As a long time Sonic fan I think you're spot on. I've got a friend who was into Mega Man and the parallels are definitely there. The comparison to Mario turning into just Paper Mario vs the other great 3d titles is a great way to compare how Sega and Nintendo differed in their handling of things. Quality stuff as usual!

[@deltatango-six7941]

Big Sonic fan since the original Genesis entry. Obviously I prefer the 2D games but there are a few 3D titles I enjoyed. Sonic Adventure 1 and 2 were awesome and the new Sonic Frontiers is a step in the right direction. I feel like Sonic can exist in both the 2D and 3D genres. Sonic Mania was great and Frontiers showed that things are improving in the 3D arena. I have hope for the franchise.

[@thecunninlynguist]

What happened to Jenovi? Welcome back friend.

[@Jenovi]

Thanks! Hope you enjoy this one.

[@GimblyGFR]

It is great to have you back, Jenovi. Excellent video, and it made me look at the different styles of Sonic games in a new way. I love the classic 2D Sonic games, so Sonic Mania was the last game I really enjoyed. I also liked the classic style stages on Sonic Generations a lot, and even some of the more modern 3D levels. I know I'm in a minority here, but I LOVE Sonic 3D Blast on the Genny, especially the amazing Director's Cut version that Jon Burton released on 2017. I think it is a lot more enjoyable than the Sonic Adventure style games. Anyway, thanks a lot for the content.

[@Jenovi]

I've not played the director cut, was it released in a compilation or standalone?

[@pferreira1983]

@@Jenovi It's a fan remake by the creator.

[@BryanTruong]

A fascinating take. Also love the heavy use of Door Into Summer. I'm part of the older middle age demographic. I actually stopped buying Sonic games after the death of the Dreamcast and didnt get back into them again until Generations. I will argue against the simple dichotomy of age groups - it appears Sonic fans spans literally all ages, likely because of the media presence (successful TV shows, comics, and now movies) and there appears to be die hard fans for each generation of games (2D, Adventure, Unleashed/Colors, Advance/Rush, etc.). But Sega not caring about his Western popularity to make it a focus for the Saturn (not even planned as a launch title, the bickering over the use of the Nights engine) and then as you noted how clueless, directionless and unsure they seem to be with what to do with Sonic after Adventure 2 has not helped with consistency. As some critics have noted, if they try something new but it's not met with universal acclaim - instead of evolution and refinement they may scrap it entirely and start over again, which worsens the problem. And a major point you made, their focus on their new AAA titles has been only the younger crowd (I'd say elementary to high school), instead of making the games appeal to the fan base that truly is all ages.

[@Jenovi]

Chaotix is incredible. I think most people who don't like it base their feelings on it not being a true Sonic game. The OST is also one of, if not the best, of any Sonic series game. The age group situation is one Sega has addressed, and I think it continues to be accurate. It's not to say young fans don't remain fans as they get older (look at me), but the newer games are not marketed to them, so they feel essentially left behind while hoping for something fresh that may appeal to them. I personally feel that for many releases now, Sega feels they can target a demographic with Sonic and sell a million games. They know their cost plus return on investment reasonably well and are unwilling to rock the formula. Sega certainly understands this, and Frontier is their way of addressing these issues while hopefully expanding the player base. Will it work? We will know by year's end. I think your final point will well put, and I agree. My opinion on the matter is if Frontiers is nothing other than a masterpiece, Sega should put all future Sonic games on hold until they have the desire, team, and ability to ensure the next release is genre-defining. Honestly, I don't think this will happen, or a course correction would have been implemented years ago.

[@BryanTruong]

@@Jenovi I do think Sega should've treated Sonic like the way Nintendo treats Metroid or Zelda - Only coming out with games when they have a clear and definitive vision of what they want to do with the game and the character

[@st1ka]

I will say this though, NBA street 1 and 2 for the PS2 were some really good NBA Jam style games :D

[@Jenovi]

You ever play NHL Hitz? That’s an underappreciated gem. Where else can you play as a shark in a hokey outfit while assaulting other players.....?

[@st1ka]

@@Jenovi haha I have not, but that sounds awesome

[@maroon9273]

@@Jenovi plus, 2 on 2 open ice hockey challenge. I wish 2D baseball nba jam engine arcade port happened during the 90s.

[@drgribb]

Hitz was fire. And Hangtime/Showtime was an absolute staple at sleepover birthday parties when I was a kid.

[@Hastor34]

@@Jenovi Hitz was one of my favorite series. The one I played most had an alien level and team, and you played with a moonrock. The player names included Klaatu, Barada, and Nikto. If you passed the puck in the right order you could get the announcer to say the whole thing. Also reminded me of Blades of Steel on NES in some ways (the fighting being a big part), which, despite not being a fan of hockey (or sports in general), remains one of my favorite 2 player competitive NES games.

[@drgribb]

Pretty solid take. I agree on all points -- although I guess I must be one of those "three" people that liked Shaq-fu :P , even the completely different modern "sequel" that was a side-scrolling beat-em-up was completely fine. Also didn't mind games like Sonic 3D Blast. I liked Sonic Adventure Battle on Gamecube... but every single 3D sonic game I've tried in the last, idunno, decade or so (covering mostly Wii U and 3ds eras), has been... not good. Really good point with the comparison to Mega Man. I was like, *obsessed* with Mega Man as a kid. Watched the cartoon show religiously, had all the nes and snes games, would roleplay I was mega man taking people's powers on the playground in elementary school, etc. lol. But then in the Gamecube and GBA eras, they started putting all of the MMX games on Sony consoles (which I didn't have) and started creating all these other spin-offs on the GBA that *weren't* traditional mega man games. And as a confused fan, I basically just ignored them, because they were cool and all, but I was waiting for what I thought would be an inevitable mainline game release on a Nintendo system. Battle Network and ZX were fun games and all (I played them on emulator back then, since you had to be sparing with what games you pick up when you're a kid and you're pretty much limited to Christmas and birthdays for new games), but they were way too different from what I was waiting for and hoping for. Now I can appreciate them better on their own merits, and I might even pick up the upcoming Battle Network Collection on Switch. But it felt like Capcom really screwed the pooch there.

[@Jenovi]

Very solid points and totally relatable in my experience. Another issue the Mega Man series faced at the time was generalized confusion about what went where and what game would actually appeal to a fan of the original NES design. Mega Man has always been a top ten series for me, and in the 90's, it was close to number 1. I had tons of conversations about this topic, and in the 90s, there weren't many folks who weren't confused by what Capcom was doing. PS. Glad to finally meet one of the fabled 3.

[@pferreira1983]

There's very few bad 3D Sonic games. However there needs to be more great 3D ones.

[@drgribb]

@@pferreira1983 lmao sonic Boom and Forces would like a word with you. Christ.

[@pferreira1983]

@@drgribb Sonic Boom isn't considered a great 3D Sonic game. Forces is neither bad or good, it's average and...that's fine.

[@michaels9917]

Always loved 2D sonic games for a quick pick up and play for 30 minutes, or a long sit down session.

[@Inignot12]

Always love to see a Jenovi upload! And that CHAOTIX music? 😍😍

[@Jenovi]

That or Sonic 2 has the best OST imo.

[@TheSuperPlayer707]

Plus Megaman VII OST

[@highscores8593]

always love your videos man. at the 10 and a half minute mark I was just jamming out too hard to hear what you said though. gotta rewind now 🙂

[@Jenovi]

So much good music in the classic games.

[@happyspaceinvader508]

Yeah, the background music could be taken down a notch or two. The only criticism I have of one of the best documentaries I’ve watched this year.

[@ringfitmaster3079]

This was a very solid video Jenovi. I have a different take/ opinion that I hope makes sense. First I want to mention is I was born in 1995. The first Sonic games I played were Sonic Adventure DX & Sonic Adventure 2 Battle on the GC along with Sonic Mega Collection & Gems collection so I feel very blessed to have grown up loving the classic era & the Adventure Era. Now this is where I have a different opinion. I think the Sonic Adventure era ended with Shadow The Hedgehog & Sonic 06 I think was the beginning of a new era as the game was simply titled Sonic The Hedgehog as if it was a reboot for the series. While I'm not a fan of Sonic 06 or the games that released afterwards on systems like the Wii I have seen kids who were born in the early 2000's who find memories of those sonic games on the Wii & never touched a sonic adventure game ever before. They maybe heard of it but never played it before. So in conclusion I think there are 3 different camps & no matter which camp wherever someone falls I think there are some fans that will find something to enjoy our of all 3. Thanks for reading.

[@Jenovi]

That's a very solid take, and I agree. Even more so, there may be another subset who start with Sonic Boom and view the series moving forward based on that. Soon, Sonic Frontiers may add another. I can remember back to when Adventure was released. We purchased it near launch. Most of us thought it was great, but we didn't see it as a mainline game. It was viewed as more of a spinoff, and to be fair, Sonic had a ton of non-mainline games, some of which were great (Sonic Racing) and others less so (Sonic Shuffle). So it wasn't really a deal breaker at the time. We were mostly excited for a Sonic Adventure game. It was much later when it became clear the series had gone in another direction altogether, and with games like Sonic 2006 (the worst game), the retro generation became vocal about it.

[@Gorilla_Jones]

Hey Jenovis back! Noice I personally love old Sonic games and Sonic Mania. I loved Sonic Adventure on Dreamcast. And I enjoyed Sonic Generations. The Sonic racing games IMO are better than Mario Kart. I cut SEGA some slack and support them but I can understand it's not for everyone. Welcome back!

[@Jenovi]

Sonic Racing games are shockingly 🔥. I really enjoy them.

[@maroon9273]

@@Jenovi it's a shame sonic drift never made it to the Saturn and dreamcast.

[@nattila7713]

+1. for me it is sonic 1 2 generations and mania. and the 3 latest kart games, especially transformed!!

[@pferreira1983]

Yeah the Sonic karting games are pretty awesome.

[@PurpleColonel]

Sonic, for me, is a game that feels so bad to play that I never want to bother getting good enough to go fast.

[@nekonekopanicnekonekopanic7335]

Happy to see your back

[@Jenovi]

Thanks! Videos will likely continue being slow to release.

[@gameboy_colorful7078]

I have to say I played sonic 2 on genesis and I played Adventure on GameCube. I liked both styles equally.

[@Jenovi]

Adventure was solid. 🤠

[@nekonekopanicnekonekopanic7335]

I really enjoyed the sonic and MegaMan compression I never thought of that

[@Jenovi]

Thanks! They were two of my favorite series growing up.

[@MarquisDeSang]

I prefer Astal. PS : The music is too loud, can't focus on what you are saying.

[@Jenovi]

Thanks for the feedback, I'll make a note for future uploads.

[@juststatedtheobvious9633]

I'm an older 2d fan (fell off after Adventure 2 did everything worse than the first game, minus the Sonic and Shadow stages), but even I know Colors + Generations were well received. I'm especially impressed with the way you had time for Drift but not All Stars, and 4, but not the Neo Geo Pocket game, or the Advance and the Rush series. This is just a lazy rant, for you to vent. It's not any kind of real analysis.

[@Jenovi]

You missed the entire point, but that's ok, it's likely my fault that you came to this conclusion. Thanks for watching my lazy rant. 🥸

[@jeremybowers3181]

Sonic Mania was (for me) a Sonic game that genuinely excited me like it did when I was a kid!! Fantastic.

[@Sashko_Dee]

@10:20 I'm still mad that Black Isle sold Fallout to Bethesda. It should have gone to Troika. These talentless ass-clowns turned a beautiful RPG series where you can have actual player and dialogue choice that impacts the quests and story and turned it into a generic tunnel shooter. Fallout 2 can be beaten without firing a single bullet. You can literally sneak, lie, bribe, and reason your way through the entire game. It was so groundbreaking that it has completely ruined the RPG genre for me to this day. With a handful of exceptions most RPGs feel extremely rigid and quaint in comparison.

[@Jenovi]

Very interesting! I've never played the original games, but I've heard a ton of positive reviews on them. It's on the agenda of games to play.

[@mikedrop4421]

Here from Slopes. Glad I found this gem.

[@Jenovi]

Thanks for watching Mike. 😆

[@Sakf504]

Well, if you excuse my not so great english and the wall of text I'm putting here... I may not share the exact same point as you do regarding about how similar the 3D entries are between one another, because IMO even there Sega just can't get his sh t straight even with having some admitedly great ideas, but this reasoning about them doing what they feel like instead of improving on what's already done and works really makes sense in my case too. Like for example, the Boost gameplay from the daytime levels in Sonic Unleashed, which is from a game that's already dragged down thanks to the controversial Werehog levels, for then later making Sonic Colors being a game made entirely of a really stripped down version of the great boost gameplay and design combined with a lot of 2d sections, then for *at least* be done really well as it is in Generations and the Classic Sonic gameplay actually not being bad either. Only for then throwing the formula out of the window with Lost World and then later taking the formula back as it is, and then absolutely trashing it in Sonic Forces. And that was only about what they did with the Boost formula, the first two Adventure games get a lot of flack by having very different gameplay styles all in the same game like Unleashed as well, being really hit and miss in both Adventure 1 and 2. You also have Heroes, which instead of improving on the Adventure formula, it goes with an awful "let's go from doing some janky and slippery af platforming to now being forced to beat X amount of enemies with the simpliest and most repetitive combat system you can have" kind of gameplay (And before someone says it, yes, i actually know about what the different character types can do). Heck, the best example about the lack of consistency to me might be about Sonic 4 Episode 1 and the DS version of Sonic Colors. Both being developed by Dimps, and both being released in like the same day i believe, and yet the ""inferior, stripped down and low end version of Sonic Colors"" is countrymiles better than Sonic 4 as well as being a different and an overall better game than his Wii counterpart IMO. No wonder why fans can't even agree about what they want or what's the best Sonic game. Even the classic entries all have differences and issues of their own.

[@FrogTony]

Sonic became trash when it went 3D...

[@Jenovi]

That opinion is shared by most adults.

[@FrogTony]

@@Jenovi Indeed it is. Love the Amico shade btw

[@maroon9273]

Once adventure 2 was finished sonic has been garbage. The only best 3d games afterwards is Sonic generations.

[@nattila7713]

@@maroon9273 strange it was kind of missing from the video. not sure if it sold well though :(

[@pferreira1983]

@@Jenovi That opinion is not shared by everyone. 😉

[@RoyalDarjeeling]

Amazing video! Really interesting, and that's coming from a not Sonic fan! ;P. Just one comment, I found the music too loud, it was a bit distracting/annoying as it was almost as the same level of your voice. Just a thought!

[@TheSuperPlayer707]

Finally I have the time to take a look of this video and I find a key mistake on this video: considering Sonic as a Videogame series. Sonic wasn't created as something to grow up in games, Nakayama directed the franchise to be a multimedia brand. Not for nothing he hired Tom Kalinske to push up the popularity of the saga in other media as comics and TV series, or the existence of interactive experiences even in Japan. This makes a clear difference between him and MegaMan and/or Mario. For example, in MegaMan we don't see the franchise to expand to another media until 1993 when Rockman Megamix and MegaMan: Upon a Star were released. Also the series primarily focused on games then expanded the brand to another media. Mario it's more or less the same. It stayed on games for a while until the first OVA was released and starting up from that to se comics or new multimedia products we had to wait until the late 80s or Early nineties. But still, both MegaMan and Mario always come back on the games when the franchise needs to progress. Sonic, in the other hand, even before the game was released we had Manga, months after comics on USA and Europe, a year later TV series, lots of merchandise and toys before the game was released and even music albums launched months after the first game. The series always were focused to work on several media at the same time and fail on games never represented a concern for Sega while the franchise is still working on other forms. That's why the main games tend to be so rushed or careless made, because Sega doesn't care any much about the success of Sonic on videogames. If the series fails there, they can easily try on another media and that's it. There's no other reason behind the games failure rather than greedy managing by part of the company that holds the rights of the franchise.

[@TheSuperPlayer707]

Summarizing, Sonic never failed actually since always finds a way to capitalize on, no matter if we're talking about games, comics or TV series, because it's not a Videogame franchise, it's a multimedia one.

[@Austinator0630]

Part of the problem with the franchise is the consistent loss off staff members from Sonic Team. The first big instance was in 1999 when Sonic co-creator Naoto Ohshima and other sonic team staff left to form Artoon which later became Arzest.

[@custardgannet4836]

I'm hoping against hope that Sonic Frontiers will be a banger. A fools hope perhaps.

[@Jenovi]

Me too. I have high hopes but will maintain low expectations.

[@jddeluxe2242]

Love your videos my friend... but for some reason the background music was a bit too loud and over powered your voice. It was hard to hear what you said at times. That being said, thanks for the awesome vid. 👌

[@Jenovi]

Noted, thanks for the advice. I'll be sure to work on this going forward.

[@wolfgangfrost8043]

Sonic has kinda fallen into Star Wars territory… You got the 3 good ones & everything else has been terrible.

[@jacklazzaro9820]

15:56-16:11 I heard you say the head of Sonic Team said this, but credited Keiji Inafune. Did I mishear something? Also, I’m a Sonic fan, and I can’t-for the life of me-understand why some people resort to a false dichotomy about the 2D and 3D gameplay.

[@Jenovi]

It's an error. I was having a ton of trouble with Final Cut. Yesterday, the video was done, but then the program crashed and I had a hard time loading it back. When I got it back, a ton of stuff was missing, broken, and it appeared the video edit was rolled back to a prior state. I though I fixed it all, but I guess this one was missed. I'll make a post about about it.

[@jamesedward3619]

1:54 I'm sorry, what? "Coins"? Are you for real rockstar?

[@lex_4242]

I blame Sammy

[@nikkihedged]

Sonic extreme happened before Sammy got involved.

[@Vulpas]

Hm. I was the biggest Sonic fan as a kid but unfortunately never got a Dreamcast, so I fell out with the series aside from entries on handhelds, which were hit and miss. It wasn't until Sonic Mania that I played a console version, and now I'm going back through the Dreamcast era games onward. I think I have a somewhat unique perspective on it, being a fan who loved Sonic and kinda did AND didn't keep up with the series, and I'm pretty forgiving of older games as a nostalgia goggled kinda guy so stuff like aged graphics don't hurt my impression. Platformers are my favorite genre too. So...if even I say Sonic Adventure is kinda bad, then I think that's true. To be fair, I'm playing the PC version of DX, not the Dreamcast original, but the core experience just seems fundamentally flawed. I'm a bit surprised how meandering exploration feels, I'd rather be funneled along instead of exploring. Mario 64 let you just jump right into the gameplay, and the exploration was pretty straightforward with smaller hub world areas. I see what SA was going for but streamlining things to keep up the pacing would help a lot in a remake.

[@joesaiditstrue]

funny, I got sonic adventure at launch and loved it. now going back to it, I realize how bad the game is, specifically the level design and 3D controls

[@Vulpas]

@@joesaiditstrue I'm sure I'd have loved it if I played it back in 9/9/99 too. I was pretty hyped for it. At least you enjoyed it at one point! It's still an interesting piece of gaming history for me, and it's pretty charming despite its flaws.

[@sloppynyuszi]

I was a big Sonic fan in the 90s, and the GBA games washed out the foul tastes of the Adventure games. The biggest issue is that they haven’t stuck to a consistent art direction. Even through there are a bunch of visually different takes on Marion there are some visual cores that stay consistent. And the lore never seems to change with consistent characters. Sonic is all over the place and it kinda lost its way, where sometimes it’s trying to be too different then for some reason trying to have too many callbacks to older series without capturing the essence. Sonic Mania was a nice call back to fans of the classics, but not sure what if anything it did to move forward, and this new Sonic just looks like a sequel to that XBOX 360 reboot from like 15 years ago or something. No one liked that.

[@Jenovi]

It's kind of like the Metroid series. I don't think everyone expects only 2d games, but there's an appetite for them. Look at Fusion followed much later by Dread. When done well, a series can maintain the release of two different styles of game while still having broad appeal. Mania may not have moved the series forward, but it showed the massive fanbase is hungry for something good and is willing to support the series when a game lives up to expectations. We shall see with Frontiers if this is a way forward or another misstep.

[@Carsonj13]

I dont agree that Sonic fans are enough to keep this series successful. were that the case Sega would have published Bayonetta 3... think about it these games aren't selling well... Bayonetta 2 outselling Sonic Boom And lost world combined while being confined to the same console should have been a wakeup call. the fact that Sega cant catch on is telling...

[@maroon9273]

Sonic fanbase is not big enough.

[@Carsonj13]

@@maroon9273 yeah not these days at least lol.

[@nikkihedged]

Sonic fans don’t even have a lot of nice things to say about Sonic. Those outside the fandom will probably have even less.

[@paxhumana2015]

Greed and arguing, and myself not being there making the arguing parties have a Lance Russell version of a meeting of the minds, are all reasons why the Sonic franchise is on the skids. Had the Archie, Fleetway, and IDW universes been allowed to continue, and combined with the lore of the video games, then we could legitimately have a decent Sonic game. Imagine Sega buying BioWare, or working with them, to make a sequel to the Sonic RPG that was on the Nintendo DS, but also having SatAM/Archie/Fleetway/IDW characters in the franchise...we could have a really good RPG franchise that Sega would be nuts to pass on, while Nintendo has, what, their inferior RPGs, but no Super Mario RPG 2? (I like the remake of that game, don't get me wrong, but that franchise needs to be deeper, and a playable Luigi, Daisy, Rosalina, Paulina, Donkey Kong, Toad, Toadette, Yoshi, and Nabbit all need to join the cast from the previous game, but that is a whole other subject for a whole other time). I mean, just look what happened with the Freedom Planet games...they were such good Sonic fan games that they became its own franchise that arguably did better than most modern Sonic games. However, since Sega is ruled by argumentative and selfish morons, it will most likely not happen until lots of money is thrown around, and the egotists are fired from the company.

[@Tybis]

my life is pain.

[@CorbininJapan]

Always love watching a Jenovi video!! For me personally, I kind of stopped playing Sonic after S&K 🦔

[@Islandswamp]

I wanted to play frontiers but after seeing the pop in I decided not to get it unless it goes on sale for next to nothing. I’m interested in trying it, but not really interested in risking full price

[@nikkihedged]

Sonic is possibly never going to be more than a laughing stock to many gamers. Once a reputation is established, it’s near impossible to get rid of it.

[@maroon9273]

They milked sonic too much and excitement with different game series. They should stick to Generations and Mania

[@nikkihedged]

@@maroon9273 People get tired of the same thing over and over

[@pferreira1983]

Don't people like Tomb Raider today though?

[@Lightblue2222]

👍 The powerful 3D graphics of modern Sonic games pale comparison to their 2D Sega Genesis games. imo The Sonic Advance "GBA games" are decent as well, I feel like playing those again. 2D Sonic is always worth coming back to.

[@Jenovi]

The art design is quite bad in many of the 3D games.

[@pferreira1983]

This video is quite a bad take and that's a shame as I was looking forward to it. Your point out how Mario games have been huge successes has more to do with the die hard loyal fanbase of Nintendo more than because those games are good. Mario 64 suffers the same controls issues the 2D games do but with the added bonus of 3D! Now you get had cameras and bad control physics! 😆In comparison Sonic Adventure felt more tight with its controls. I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion every 3D Sonic game has been Adventure. If any criticism could be made is that MORE 3D Sonic games need to be like Sonic Adventure. Meanwhile Mario Odyssey takes various elements from Adventure but no one noticed because fanbase brainwashing... You seem to be just parroting the same talking points people who haven't tried later games do. Consider this: Sonic's 3D games haven't been seen as fantastic as the MD ones but if the IP was doing so bad why are most of the fans today younger fans who grew up with the 3D games? Why do we have endless comics, merchandise, cartoons, etc? Does Mario have that? If it doesn't does that make Mario an IP stuck in a rut? 😉 No doubt Sonic Frontiers hasn't impressed you because when Sega try new things they still get trashed for it. I personally think the new Sonic game looks pretty interesting and this is coming from someone who is a die hard 2D Sonic fanboy. I hope this feedback has been of some kind of use to you. 👍

[@Jenovi]

No offense, but your comment is a bad take, and it seems like you skipped entire segments of the video. I'll go paragraph by paragraph, but keep it short. No offense intended if you don't receive another reply after this. It's a bit hard to have a discussion when I already don't feel like I was heard, nor do I have the time to correct that problem. 1. The conclusion isn't every game is Adventure, clearly, it's been rebooted numerous times. The conclusion is that every game is kind of its own thing, not connected to the games or mechanics that made it a blockbuster. There's a reason Sega keeps rebooting the series every few games. That's about how long it takes to completely destroy a terrible concept. PS, I don't like Mario 64, but I like 1-3, Super 1-2, and Sunshine forward. You may not personally feel the games are critical successes, but the gamers and the industry at large know this is true. Also, there's not a single game on the market today that doesn't lift a concept or idea from somewhere else. That's not at all what I'm talking about in this video. 2. TBH, I'm not someone who watches a ton of other content creators, especially about things I dislike, such as newer Sonic games. Most of the Sonic coverage I've watched is from pro bad game reviews like Cygnus. However, if people in mass that I don't know have the same feelings, they may be valid. The remainder of the comment was addressed in depth in this very video. TLDR: Sonic, much like Barbie, Bratz, Lego, and at one time, Digimon, used an IP mostly popular with children to help market games. It's not a blanket statement, but that's the majority consumer. 3. Quite the opposite and again, & something discussed in this video. The issue with Sonic games is the team's refusal to polish them, try new ideas, accept accountability for bad ideas, and toss out the trash. They have the same tired and conceptually bankrupt team turning out trash in a different form every couple of years. Sega should be working on a game that's only released once it's considered a contender for Game of the Year, something Nintendo learned long ago. Not all new Sonic games are bad, in fact, most are quite marginal/average. That's the entire issue though, marginal isn't acceptable, and the bad ones actively damage the series for a generation.

[@pferreira1983]

@@Jenovi "It's a bit hard to have a discussion when I already don't feel like I was heard," I watched the video beginning to end and kept an open mind throughout. "The conclusion isn't every game is Adventure, clearly, it's been rebooted numerous times. The conclusion is that every game is kind of its own thing, not connected to the games or mechanics that made it a blockbuster." I don't think the video explained this well enough. You used Adventure as a blanket term. The problem I see is Sega reacts to criticism for every game so they come up with something new only to meet the same criticism. It's said that Sonic fans cannot agree on what they want but I think this applies to the wider view of the franchise. Every game is expected to be bad unless it's 2D. Even then something like Sonic 4 which tried to keep new and old fans happy didn't satisfy anyone. It's a push/pull on creativity and Sega not sticking to their guns. "It's not a blanket statement, but that's the majority consumer." You say Sonic games sell regardless and that's because there is still a fanbase for them, young and old. The Archie comic went on for more than three decades, there's been various animated cartoons and the live action CG movies have been a success financially. Clearly this is more than 40 year old gamers buy into this stuff. It's ignorance to say Sonic is a fad as the fans have grown up. People have grown up with the new games and I'm sure they were not alive for the 2D games. "The issue with Sonic games is the team's refusal to polish them, try new ideas, accept accountability for bad ideas, and toss out the trash." As I say above I think the issue is perhaps Sega is too reactive to complaints which is why they don't stick to something that works. Sure the Sonic games could be much better but there seems to be a gap between what gamers know about Sonic and what is reality. I get what you mean about Sega focusing on one Sonic game for more development time which is why the focus on Frontiers has been beneficial but Nintendo has in fact changed things around for Mario in every game. The acceptance of the Mario games is more huge fan loyalty combined with more time to polish the games. "That's the entire issue though, marginal isn't acceptable," Part of me feels this is more to do with Sega not developing for their own console. To keep their company relevant they have to keep their mascot in the limelight more than if they were still making consoles. I just feel people are quick to exaggerate Sonic's decline. As you yourself have seen on social media people are quick to jump on hate wagons as soon as a new game is released. People do not keep an open mind and at least praise Sega for trying something new. 🤷‍♂

[@Nathan-rb3qp]

​@@pferreira1983 This whole argument is so long it could be a whole other video.

[@pferreira1983]

@@Nathan-rb3qp What argument exactly?

[@bawitback]

I grew up playing super mario bros from nes, snes, and got into sonic the hedge hog series later (played at my friends home in the 90s on genesis) first sonic game I bought was Adventure for DC. I enjoy majority of the 2D sonic games with a few 3D games (Adventure 2, Generations, Heroes) I fell off hard with Mario series with Super mario 64 - disliked the overall gameplay diversion, it's been the same way for every 3D mario game since (with the exception of 2.5D (new super mairo bros, and new super mario bros u) still prefer sonic over mario overall.

[@Jenovi]

Truth be told, I disliked 64, and while my heart has softened regarding it, it's my least favorite of all 3d releases. I can't say much bad about any of the ones that followed. Sunshine was one of my favorite Gamecube games, and Odyessy remains one of my favorite games on the Switch. So many of the Retro-Sonic and Mario games are iconic and have held up well. I've played through them multiple times with my kids, nephews, and nieces, who all have fallen in love with the 2d gameplay. The same can't be said when stepping over to other early 3d game releases such as Croc: Legend of the Gobbos.

[@CasperEgas]

Don't agree. I like most of the Sonic games, with some exceptions. I didn't think Sonic Mania was that great. But I generaly much prefer playing Sonic games over Mega Man or Mario games. It is far from my favourite Sega franchise though. Also, Sonic still really is a big phenomenon all over the world. I see loads of children with Sonic items here in The Netherlands and when I was in Ecuador it was spectacular! Almost on every major shopping street there was something Sonic related. Even fast food restaurants using Sonic as a symbol for faaaaast food.

[@Islandswamp]

I think the problem is that the things that make the original Sonic the Hedgehog 🦔 fun are difficult to translate to 3D. A sonic game should be fast, he needs to be able to run superhumanly 💨 fast. But if you run that fast you run the risk of not being able to control yourself. It’s way harder to jump on an enemy in 3D, especially when you’re running like the flash. To combat the difficulty of jumping on enemies, they give sonic the homing attack. In my opinion, this move is way too powerful. I’ve barely played any 3D sonic games because it feels like running on rails with auto pilot and auto aim. It feels way too easy when you’re spamming the target button and killing enemies with almost no effort.

[@Jenovi]

You're not wrong. Unfortunately, it's going to take more money and a new development team full of passion and fresh Ideas. While Sega did commit additional funds for the next Sonic game, the current team remains on board.

[@f.k.b.16]

Ok the movie was way better than I ever imagined. One scene they should add is Sonic's ugly cousin and bring back that model from the movie before they fixed it! Just as a quick haha!

[@0V3CHKiN]

I grew up with 2D and 3D Sonic. SA1 and 2 were fine. 06 was the problem. Not the story, but that it was fundamentally unfinished and broken.

[@Jenovi]

It was a dumpster fire for sure.

[@hammerkirby5243]

This seems like you have a huge lack of knowledge about the series. Adventure 1 is primarily a Platform game with exploration inbetween to unlock new levels. Adventure 2 ditches the exploration all together. Sonic Adventure was not any more of a departure from the Genesis games than Sm64 was to World. Sm64 had way more of an exploration focus and power ups were an afterthought compared to World. Honestly I'd say Sa1 is more faithful to the 2d games, althought it is still quite different I must admit. I would argue after Sega stopped producing consoles, they just started relying on gimmicks and rushing the games out like hell instead of polishing up the Adventure gameplay further. That is until Unleashed, Colors and Generations came out which are great games imo, although they are different from the Adventure games and Genesis game. Then after that they went back to the gimmicks and rushing

[@miltiadiskoutsokeras9189]

The IP got zero protection from exploitation. The complete antithesis compared to Mario or Street Fighter(OK the movie was sad) .

[@jmullner76]

Well said.

[@Jenovi]

Thanks!

[@SomeOrangeCat]

I maintain that Sega was never good. They just got lucky sometimes. This is evident by anything good ended they up with turning to shit before long, usually due to their own infighting or corporate incompetence. The Genesis was their one-hit wonder, if you will.

[@sega_kid4288]

Someone likes Disco Elysium, lol. I was the perfect age for Sonic 1 and 3 is in my top 10 all time. I was actually ok with Sonic Adventure as in my mind Mario moved to 3D the world moved to 3d. But it’s probably for the best that Sega didn’t chase earlier 2d glory. I would have loved a 2d Sonic on Saturn, I don’t believe the world would have. Sonic generations was pretty good I thought but I have avoided most 3d Sonic games since adventure 1

[@Jenovi]

You caught me!🤣 I think many people feel like you do. With all the cash grabbing Sega does, it's shocking they haven't remade Adventure for every console generations, being that's become main stream.

[@creativecatproductions]

My last time really loving sonic, other than sonic mania, was sonic adventure 1 and 2

[@Jenovi]

I'm hoping for something special with Frontiers, but my expectations are low, very low.

[@creativecatproductions]

@@Jenovi I have very low expectations as well. I’m expecting a mess, actually.

[@jeremygregorio7472]

I don't know any companies bankrupted by Sonic. Sonic 06 sold really well and Sonic boom sold okay for a Wii u game. I think Sonic forces might have been an actual money loser though but other than that everything they put out has been profitable and kept the company afloat.

[@MegamanNova]

Background music is too loud in relation to your voice. Maybe lower their playing volume as you speak. And increase the volume level when in between segments (montages)

[@Jenovi]

Noted, and thanks for the feedback. I'll certainly address it moving forward.

[@creativecatproductions]

I enjoyed that very much! ….dude 😎

[@GenXGamerYouTube]

Retro Sonic 🤘🏼

[@Jenovi]

Heck yes!

[@Drinkabeerandplayagameofficial]

Welcome back bud, you basically nailed it at the 17:47 mark, they keep getting away with it. It’ll be interesting to see how frontiers winds up being, because at this point I have no faith in 3D sonic

[@nattila7713]

sega will never learn...... doomed since the megadrive.

[@Jenovi]

TBF, the company essentially went under in 2001. So Sega today is not really the Sega of the 1940's-2001.

[@nattila7713]

@@Jenovi the whole management "replaced"? totally different company now? I have no idea what they are thinking when, for example, they release virtua racing on the switch ONLY ? is it some kind of reality I am not aware ? (like they DO KNOW it would NOT sell on other platforms?) then only megadrive releases.... wouldn't really nothing else sell from their past? (well, ok, we have some bad examples, panzer dragoon and hotd remakes.... :( so in a way they might be right :( )

[@midimusicforever]

What happened to Sonic? Not much.

[@pferreira1983]

If you don't follow Sonic I'd expect that kind of response. 😆

[@overkill1473]

Sonic does not work in 3D. That's why.

[@nBasedAce]

I really don't think that the Sonic series is all that good. If you're going fast then you don't get enough rings to finish. If you take your time in order to get enough rings to finish then you're not enjoying the speed that Sega designed. Platformers are not meant to be played fast and in my opinion the Sonic series, at least the first games, loses its appeal when you play it in a traditional way.

[@nikkihedged]

Platformers are not to be played fast?

[@Jenovi]

Interesting take, and you're not alone.

[@nBasedAce]

@@nikkihedged Yes. But you can't play any of them at the speed Sonic goes because they know how to design an enjoyable platformer.

[@NoSpamForYou]

I agree with most of your points. Sonic always felt disjointed to me. You go fast for a while then you get stopped in your tracks. Sure you can smooth it out some with a lot of practice but Sonic just isn't interesting enough to dedicate that much time to IMO.

[@Aragorn7884]

Gotta go fast!!! 🏃

[@Jenovi]

Unless it's Sonic 4, then you gotta try to go fast, but it never really happens without assistance. 😆

[@happyspaceinvader508]

I don’t really understand why they can’t simply make a 3D Sonic game that looks and sounds and feels like the original 2D games. Frontiers repeats that same mistake Sonic Adventure makes: thinking older players want a cartoon blue hedgehog in a quasi-realistic looking world with god-awful rock guitar music. This us the fundamental problem with every Sonic game from Adventure onwards… the world does not fit the character.

[@happyspaceinvader508]

Ok… Generations came close, except for the levels based on the same 3D games I’ve criticised above.

[@chandleralanis5047]

😚 p̴r̴o̴m̴o̴s̴m̴

[@reagandow850]

What happened to Sonic? SEGA happened to Sonic. No company so beloved my son many has screwed up so consistently yet continued to survive. It’s almost like they have had so many great games in the past IN SPITE OF THEMSELVES!! It’s truly mind blowing how incompetent Sega continues to be.

[@Jenovi]

Agreed.

[@SameNameDifferentGame]

Great analysis, as usual!

[@nikkihedged]

Sonic isn’t that popular. The fans are just loud and passionate. After all Sonic Boom still flopped.

[@chattingesque372]

Sonic just had two blockbuster films starring James Marsden and Jim Carey.

[@nikkihedged]

Not sure I would call Sonic a “hot commodity”. That would imply Sonic was a highly loved series. It doesn’t take a genius to see that’s not true.

[@chattingesque372]

It is. Look at the merchandise for a start.

[@pferreira1983]

Erm...it is. Always was.

[@faenethlorhalien]

Tired mascot, tired series of games that were NEVER good to begin with. And, besides my opinion, there are the FACTS: SEGA keep changing the formula with every game, pretending that they're innovating. No. You innovate AFTER you find your niche. Not before. They need to stop reinventing the series. They need to find ONE TYPE of game they want Sonic to be and keep at it FOREVER, just with small changes to the formula. They can't throw the baby with the bathwater every damn time. That forces them to change engines, change development paradigms, change everything. Absolutely preposterous.

[@Jenovi]

I certainly believe it would be best to place the series on hold if Frontiers is anything other than a masterpiece. It's acceptable to wait until a worthy idea is there to base a game off of. Or the could do what everyone else does and just remake Adventure every few years.

[@Fellipe2k5]

In my opinion the latest Sonic games are very good and fun. The issue that many fans only accept 2D games

[@Jenovi]

We are going to talk about that. 😉 Honestly, I like both when done well.

[@rockoorbe2002]

To be fair they're kind of hard to get used to. I had a chance to play Sonic 3D Blast on my PS3 as part of a Sega Genesis compilation. Now don't get me wrong, it's not a bad game but after growing up playing Sonic the classic 2D way it got me a while to get used to a 3D style game. Even with the aid of the PS3 controller joystick it's a bit disorienting and at the beginning interferes with the speed of the game. Especially compared with Mario 64 which the Mario series was always more about exploring than finishing a stage fast.

[@Fellipe2k5]

@@Jenovi I watched the full video, but as I said to a friend about Dino Crisis, we are old. The market has changed, it is not focused on the 35 to 50 year old audience. That's why we don't have a new Dino Crisis but we do have Exoprimal. To capture the younger audience that enjoys online games like Fortnite. Sonic when he went to Gamecube, Sega decided to change the focus of the public. It's no wonder that today we have Sonic 3D fans who don't like Sonic 2D. As old players we have to accept the fact that games are not made for us anymore. I accepted that fact when the new God of War came out, which has aspects of "modern" games that irritate me.

[@nikkihedged]

Sonic is niche. Comparing Sonic to Nintendo properties just makes it more obvious that’s it a niche property.

[@pferreira1983]

Yet you dedicated your YT channel to him... 🤦‍♂