Sonja Is Completely BROKEN On This Map

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🕑 Timestamps:
0:00 Intro
4:14 Match
38:08 Outro
Sonja Is Completely BROKEN On This Map
This is a replay commentary of a game played over at AWBW, a website that allows you to play Advance Wars against other human opponents.
#advancewars #aw2 #awbw

[@clownplayer7265]

Ok, who let Flak position the submarines on the map before the battle begins?

[@Nemer49994]

That's what they get for banning him. Flak's will shall always linger.

[@bubusteeri9212]

Indirect subs!

[@HALFandDOUBLE]

"Hahaha, submarines go BRRRRRRRRRRRRR"

[@KopperNeoman]

@Bubusteeri No, that's Smak: Kalf's brother's cousin's former roommate.

[@ardantop132na6]

You sure it's not BH Unit Pipeline got jammed?

[@PyrelordPazuzu]

I just checked the map data, Sonja is 1-2-0 and Kindle is 1-2-1, both are at 33% win rate. Bruh lmaoo you caused Kindle to retire on this map with a negative win rate (first time I personally ever seen that) and also credited Sonja her first win here. That's actually pretty epic.

[@Mangs1337]

Kindle simps are seething and coping rn.

[@Duothimir]

@@Mangs1337 And possibly even malding

[@ASMRDoodlez]

"Hmm, I see you've decimated my units. Wanna call it a draw?"

[@Serzari]

29:23 A small mistake no one's mentioned yet. With Mangs' earlier infantry island sacrifice, Humble can immediately go to capturing the enemy property for a 2k shift in funds now, but they go for the neutral property cap instead

[@DeejusProductions]

Whew, I'm glad you put that "Mangs" above your facecam, I was getting lost. Jk, great vid, and yeah this map is definitely busted

[@Mangs1337]

Advance Wars players have really short attention spans. I don't want them to forget my name.

[@kurtmatteson4914]

10:24 There's another benefit to Sonja's units' HP always being marked as a "?", and that is the fact that the game treats them as full-HP units for the purposes of the battle forecast. Going off of your example, a base-level Infantry shooting a Sonja Infantry on a city will always look like they'll do 38-44% damage, no matter how healthy Sonja's Infantry actually is. The shot's actual damage won't change (if Sonja's Infantry is injured, it will still lose the appropriate amount of defense), but the game will keep the lost terrain defense a secret from you. This is easily seen if you enter "?" into a defending unit's HP in the damage calculator. The damage the attacker does will match the damage done if you enter "10" into the defender's HP.

[@Mangs1337]

Their damage may be displayed like they are on full health, but not their damage taken. You can use the damage they take to calculate how much health they are on. For example, if a Sonja infantry is on 5 HP, and is on a city, they will only get 50% of the defense from terrain. A good player who knows his calcs can look at the damage he is dealing and use it to figure out how much HP the Sonja infantry is on. This doesn't work on roads, shoals and bridges because they don't give terrain stars, which is why I always tried to put my low Sonja infantry on those kinds of terrain.

[@1_random_commenter]

@@Mangs1337But doesn't that make it more likely that they will be one-shotted which means HP will be a moot point?

[@mistriousfrog]

@@1_random_commenter the fact they can be one shot under those conditions encourages the opponent to take that engagement. Better to lose the 2 hp infantry to their recon than have it attack and do 6 damage to a full hp infantry elsewhere.

[@mcairorce]

@@Mangs1337 Big brain egg

[@Buster_Scruggs]

Mangs is absolutely correct, the damage you deal to sonjas units does indeed reflect correctly, so you should be able to determine the hp of a unit within 1-2 hp by using the calculator. All that Sonja has is a decently cost effective super and some extra vision, and she is absolutely weaker than Kindle. T3 is awkward because there’s a distinct line between the top 3 and the bottom three for viability in global league, and every map has an obvious best choice amongst those top three, resulting in a ton of mirrors

[@chillstoneblakeblast3172]

I kind of wished we get more "CO is Very Good on this map despite being Tier 3-4" more, as I have gotten bored of the Unchanging metagame of Advance wars. Sonja Being good here was hilarious though but I understand the Infuriation behind it

[@scotterboi9]

Search this up on youtube: "Testing Maps - VS Kantbei - fog - 10"

[@xraceboyex]

I wish we got more interesting maps. Is making a perfectly symmetrical map the only way to balance a map in the game???... I was excited to learn about AWBW and ready to try it - then I saw that most people were playing on mirror maps and my interest immediately waned. These maps are so boring it hurts, even the one in this video

[@PyrelordPazuzu]

@@xraceboyex even in mirror maps sometimes it can be hard to balance due to FTA. Non symmetrical maps on the other hand would be a complete nightmare. You probably can play non symmetrical maps with people, just don't expect to do that on Global League

[@artimediasna759]

@@xraceboyex Yes it is???? How the hell would you make a balanced non mirror map

[@xraceboyex]

@@artimediasna759 The same way you make balanced CO's - or do you want to remove all the stat differences and powers too for "fairness"? I'll never understand this

[@OrangeJu1cee]

13:50 you didn’t need to sacrifice that infantry, you could have put it on the shoal up one left one of the hq so it is covered by the artillery

[@Mangs1337]

Good catch!

[@Poo_Brain_Horse]

@@Mangs1337 Egg, you know we expect only strategic perfection from you. Especially when you're playing Sonja!

[@napalmcannon2513]

I liked that you highlighted your own mistakes as well, and in fact you seemed harder on yourself than your opponents. Really respect that self reflection

[@subbie-eye]

The T Copter Island gambit reminds me of the second round in the Mixed Base Open challenge where your Tcopter played a significant role in getting thst long term advantage. Always glad to see these commentaries!

[@officedullard8722]

I'm better at watching Advance Wars than I am playing it.

[@HippieInHeart]

lmao same. I'm decent enough against AI and can hold myself against people who have literally never played the game before, but anyone who's at least somewhat competent would completly stomp me.

[@PyrelordPazuzu]

34:13 Imagine being the opponent, one moment you're happy and then... yeah...

[@TheMongral]

Maps like this, ones that drastically shake up the meta, are definitely important to have in the pool as a sort of wildcard. It’s definitely good for the overall health of a competitive scene to have a map or two that even the best players struggle on with their best CO’s. Ultimately though, it shouldn’t matter if your CO is the most broken in the tier you’re competing at, it should matter more that you can play skillfully enough to use their strengths to your advantage. Which is something that you showcased rather nicely here. This map *demands* the players scout aggressively in Fog to counteract Sonia’s much easier time gathering recon info, otherwise Sonia can absolutely abuse her strengths as a FoW specialist to crush even the best CO she goes against. I hope that, whatever map they replace this one with, it is replaced by a map that is equally meta-rattling. Because again, maps that prevent everyone from just defaulting to “best co in tier” can only be good for the competitive scenes overall health.

[@HippieInHeart]

That is very true. For example I really enjoy playing as Grit because I just really like using ranged weapons. But even though Grit is considered an extremely strong CO, I doubt I'd be able to win with him against someone like Mangs, even if Mangs chose like Flak or someone else who is considered very weak. Overall, it still comes down to skill, CO strength can help a little bit but if I make major mistakes or just generally don't play very well, it's not gonna be enough to allow me to win the match.

[@xraceboyex]

Maps that aren't perfectly symmetrical might be a nice route to go. I was going to get into competitive pvp play until I saw the typical map and was visibly disgusted. Never even considered it since

[@HippieInHeart]

@@xraceboyex non symmetrical would inevitably give one player an advantage though, which isn't usually a good idea in competitive play. Can work well if you're just having a bit of fun with a few friends, or you're just playing by yourself vs ai, but in competitive pvp, no one likes having to play at a disadvantage, and I'd imagine that playing with an advantage just because the map was designed non-symmetrical isn't much fun either. It's supposed to be purely about skill, not about getting lucky and starting on the good half of the map.

[@garygameking]

That lone infantry on the top left, if you could abandon your cap on the right property and move it to capture the city on the center tile, then there would be no place for their T-copter to offload. Which means Kindle would need to pull an artillery or a B-copter to help. This basically denied 12k+ funds temporarily, plus city.

[@00110000]

31:46 That Psycho Mantis theme dropping with the Counter Break 👌

[@Gatitasecsii]

Aw man Sonja love, finally. And you used her really well! A shame about the tank and the copter that died unnecessarily, but other than that, the "final push" was extremely satisfying. And I know this is controversial, but for me the genocide at the end is like the reward for a war well fought, so I actually enjoy the moping up afterwards...

[@I-ONLY-BUILD-MECHS-AND-DUSTERS]

That's not really a mangs infantry on that mid left city, you're totally screwing over his captures there and trading infantry with him. Mangs infantry is just throwing them away for absolutely no reason or something, but you're actually getting a lot out of that one. I was hoping to see this missile. The only real way to stop the HQ cap is with battacopters.

[@naproupi]

I agree, as much as I like playing Kindle, I think strategies around zoning the cities can be very fun, Kindle is too strong for her tier, sure she would have an hard time in tier 2 but probably not as much as she is giving to the lower tier 3 CO

[@Tzizenorec]

18:00 Enhanced Vision wasn't necessary to kill that infantry - the anti-air would have gotten vision of that forest anyway when it killed the battle copter.

[@DatBoi-sl1rw]

I have waited so long for some replay comentary, thank you good sir

[@Narutocjw]

Fun looking map and of course the league bans it bc they can’t stand a map that benefits Sonia

[@napkin6184]

Day 12. Top left infantry should've switched to capture the other property. T copter can't unload then lol.

[@Mangs1337]

I also could have just let the T-copter stay on that island to deny it, forcing a b-copter to travel to the other side.

[@tespenkr9924]

After getting into AWDS, I started maining Kindle. Most of the people I play against use Colin or Nell to 'convince' me to pick another CO.

[@DarkSoulSeeker95]

"So now my Recon is gone" My Head: From Recon zu Regone :D

[@nefftron1]

Love the Metal Gear 2 intro music in the background.

[@markberghel275]

Yeah this is like the one situation where Sonja is actually useful: Fog of War, when the map is juuuuuuuuuust right. She's still absolutely horrible the rest of the time, but hey, when it works...

[@Techy_fin]

the possibility for kindle to be moved to t2 would be so great, a piece of my soul always dies when i go to play a t3 match and i see my opponent picked her

[@derkatwork33]

The labs being useless is annoying. Would it be balanced to lock Md tanks until you own a lab? Maybe move labs slightly closer to your area then?

[@adept7497]

Yes it is. I always imagined they could give some tech points per turn and you get a random tech at a certain number. Could be fun. But I doubt I will see any kind of use for still quite a while for them, besides their different HQ function...

[@xraceboyex]

How about just keep them the way they are and add 1000+/- ish funds per day? I never understood why they don't produce funds

[@a-s-greig]

​@@xraceboyex Research and development costs must somehow neutralize any profit made. Makes me wonder if there couldn't be a property that boosts the funds yield from cities, by say, 10%. Every ten properties owned would give you the income of eleven. Wonder if that could work, or if it'd just be broken...

[@FSSZilla]

Woah, was not expecting to open with Theme of Solid Snake from the MSX Metal Gear 2: Solid Snake, but it really is a great banger for the intro!

[@Srythian]

Totally agree on Kindle tbqh. I don't even *like* playing Kindle all that much. Literally the only reason I do is because if she's available in T3 I feel like I have to to not get outmatched. Kindle mirror matches are probably my least favorite genre of AWBW GL.

[@Buster_Scruggs]

In all fairness, I think putting kindle into t2 isn’t correct, it’d accomplish the same thing as putting jake in T3, it would take the predominantly played best co of one tier and put them in another tier where there are no reasons to choose them. Kindle is not even close to as good as max/Olaf/Eagle, she’s easy to work around and her powers don’t devastate people like the other three do, there would be almost no maps where kindle is chosen, and in her current tier, although she is predominantly best, there’s still maps where drake or Andy are arguably better. Adding an additional tier in between for kindle drake Andy might make sense though, because other than the rare Rachel map or the lash chads, nobody picks anyone else in t3.

[@Buster_Scruggs]

Lash just isn’t as good as her day to day power makes her seem because in t3 and above, the busted and game changing supers come into play and hers is overpriced and situational. Rachel can be played around, and Sonya doesn’t really give much of anything in elite games because you should be able to predict strategy and know the relative placement of troops even in fog. Those three have a hard line between them and the bigger three.

[@Mangs1337]

I wonder what would happen if they made Tier 3,5 with Jake, Adder, Lash & Sonja, and allowed Flak/Jugger in T4. It would spice things up a lot.

[@Buster_Scruggs]

@@Mangs1337 oh my yes, that would be an excellent tier, I'd love to play some lash games in comp. Lash is amazing for tactical match play, and would be great for making truly high IQ games. That tier seems very perfect for her

[@Sir_Djack]

I love your replays of Advance wars ! Thank you for these, mate.

[@TKHedgeHog]

Finally, another awbw replay commentary.

[@josephaszomble]

Love the metal gear tracks being played in thebackground

[@LavaCaptain-yf6iu]

Hearing Encounter when the Missile was built was pretty good ngl

[@LanEXHikari]

Mangs, fun video but extra kudos for playing Metal Gear 2's BGM, really sneaky from your part 😏

[@krissjames7276]

I always love these video, and this was certainly an interesting match on a really unique/weird map.

[@Truniht]

Any match that involves kindle getting bullied gets a like from me.

[@Jonouchi5]

Very good game. That infantry drop on left top = MVP move. You denied him so much days of revenue 😅 Still, learned a lot from this game. Keep on the great work and following your jouney trough ranked Advance wars Mr. Mangs😁

[@Sakkrah]

Throwing like and comment to promote this kind of content because I like watching it. Good stuff.

[@WavemasterAshi]

"Bit of an anti-air gambit, as I like to say." I thought you liked to say "Worst mistake of the match!"

[@starhalv2427]

I just had an idea for original CO: Geheimole Casual power: land units move on mountains as if they were roads, but move on roads as if they were mountains. 1st power (4 stars): "Burrow" You receive +50% defense for land units, but -1 vision and speed. Your opponent also receives -1 vision. 2nd power (8 stars): "Secret operation" Your opponent receives -2 vision and -20% defense for all their units. The cost of repairing and recruiting troops is increased by 50% for your opponent. If fog of war is disabled, it becomes enabled for the duration of this ability for both players. It basically makes non-scouting units completely blind.

[@duross101]

I honestly think after watching many of your videos that you have a personal vendetta against Kendall. It is physically impossible for you not to talk shit about her or the people playing her

[@chickenpower5732]

Holy hell he actually used the word gambit and it was actually correct in context. Good on you sir.

[@thatfrog4104]

In regards to pipe seam attack not showing, it was discussed in the AWBW discord that the replay file doesn't store pipe seam attacks (just having an action line with no info provided), so both the program and website won't be able to show it unless the website is updated to fix this. I believe it also sometimes doesn't store "trapped" that happen outside of a forest/reef, though I need to investigate it more.

[@aaronlovin2263]

Great AWBW video : )

[@sonsysy4195]

15:56 You should've capped the comm tower before you made your attacks so that you deal more damage

[@edfreak9001]

the last few days being sped through made me realize that you could probably make a pretty neat video of like, advance wars matches just constantly moving the units and showing the powers popping and nothing else, just constant footage of the game ongoing set to relaxing music or something not so fast that you couldn't vaguely see the strategy going on but just continuous movement like that.

[@mathblitz2994]

Within the awbw community the current consensus is that problem co on this map isnt sonja, its sami. That being said the issue with this map is that the entire is completely rocket lockable forcing the game into a very choky stage.

[@USDebtCrisis]

Capping labs grants a bonus to troop morale

[@NodeHF]

+1 for metal gear 2 music

[@lopovos2919]

as a kindle main I agree 100% agree kindle is tier 2

[@willistuttle966]

I'm a simple man. I hear MGS music, I upvote.

[@corentinc.948]

Good match, for both players!

[@MrMarket1987]

Fog of War is about the only thing Sonja has going for her unless her Luck and counters were adjusted further. A good match display of her potential otherwise, limited as it may be.

[@outliney7239]

Hey, I’m a map committee staff! :)

[@maxjames8422]

The final push was just epic

[@loganmatthews3672]

Love seeing uncommon COs.

[@JoseMoreno-gu2bf]

Moving Kindle from tier 3 to tier 2 would bring to the game so much balance and playability. It would fix problems like: Lash being completely neutered by that redhead.; Only has CO'a , Rachel not veing valuable being more viable. And it's not like Kindle does bad against T2 CO's, with her +40 dtd she can harass Eagle and Max. Against Max I wouldn't think she me has a chance.

[@njnjhjh8918]

The submarines are in pipes? I don't remember that from the games

[@Valrok1870]

Roughly 50k damage dealt day 20...sheesh that is some good value

[@FireBurn256]

Flak put submarines inside the tubes. Think about it.

[@Step6srl]

34:03 Super Troopers reference :D

[@gigabyte2248]

I would be 100% OK if Kindle went up to tier 2. She is *so* annoying to play against in tier 3, let her move up and get annoyed by Max and Olaf (and crap herself when Eagle's lightning strike hits). This would open up tier 3, with Andy and Drake becoming the power picks and Rachel and possibly Lash becoming the off-meta picks. Much more interesting. It would also add just that little bit of variety to tier 2, as it's a bit odd having just 3 COs in the tier. A question to debate below: how would you feel about introducing a tier 5? Adder is the power pick of tier 4, with Jake and maybe Jess being the off-meta picks, but Koal, Grimm and Sonja (in standard) barely ever get a look in. Would it be more interesting to have a tier 5, which COs would you put in it and, if Flak and Jugger were to be unbanned, would you put them in tier 4 or tier 5? Would you include a 'no CO' option, given that Grimm's defence penalty and Sonja's bad luck make playing with no CO a viable option?

[@mineflameblade8788]

We need more maps that are this spicy and different. I think one map I would like to see is a fow navel map during permanent rain. If I had a pc I would make it. As for the name. I would call it Stormforce.

[@Monsuco]

I wish we had gotten to hear Somja's theme as background music during this match. It's a wonderful theme and we don't get to hear it often enough because she's not usually a strong CO.

[@Al0neStillAlive]

If I played this map I'd probably get rockets to take out the enemy sub then park it on the empty missile silo behind my own sub to lock down the middle.

[@i_am_jarvistm7220]

It looks almost as if the map were constructed around favoring Sonja... I wonder if that was intentional?

[@josephgarcia8209]

13:57 Why not place your infantry in range of your Artillery to attack his capping Infantry, for unit overlap? That's also one less angle to attack your Infantry since it would be adjacent to the 2 sea tiles, and if your opponent wanted to thirst, he would have to defer the cap. 18:23 The Infantry one space north of your Artillery should have attacked the capping Infantry. You could have used the Infantry one space north of your Tank to kill the 4 HP enemy Infantry. This would prevent you from sacking 2 low HP infantry. I also thought Sonja was quite good in the 2nd round of your tournament since Infantry could be useful scouts with 2 vision, despite the reduced vision in the rain.

[@aznmarinex2]

for that island gambit, what if you moved your infantry to capture the middle tile city instead of finishing the capture? It would make it so he cant even unload the infantry now?

[@projectpitchfork860]

34:04 Value Town is worth 56,900.

[@bremer1701]

I am just playing the exact same match up on this map :D But i chose kindle. Urban blight is just so op. And i do like this map. Its really cool.

[@privategallade9120]

🥚

[@rattled6732]

🥚

[@commanderkitty4274]

🥚

[@PyrelordPazuzu]

🥚

[@Mangs1337]

🥚

[@HenT8991]

There should be some options for siege maps in competitive. Keep the opponent from conquering you for x amount of turns

[@Pauli-COJ]

When your infantry got spotted by the heli transport on the upper left island, wouldn't it have been a good idea to move it to the left city to deny any unloading on the island?

[@whisper6534]

Up!

[@Dragonite43]

Missile-Chan! :D

[@UmbreonMessiah]

How are you recording these replays? Are these recorded while playing? I have been trying to figure out AWBW's replay feature and it doesn't look ANYTHING like this.

[@evilmurlock]

Sonia hype!!! Sonia best commander! Scounting strongest power! information is GOD!!!

[@DEATHRAGE157]

Mangz can you pull a Grimm victory video?

[@hadoukenfighter]

i'm like 8 minutes into this video and i have no idea what they were thinking allowing this map in.

[@lancelindlelee7256]

That super push did 60+k worth of damage. That is 3 turns worth of incone

[@Polaris5664]

City ranged attack from civilization in advance wars?

[@gamermanzeake]

Unless the replay isn't clear, that transport-infantry boosting looks absolutely like something you cannot do in Advance Wars. I do not like that either, if that is the case.

[@Doggggggggo]

what?

[@M30W3R]

Hey Mangs you might be able to tell, does the Lab count as an extra building for Kindle's SCOP?

[@Mangs1337]

No, it says in the CO desc :)

[@VanillaVictini]

Why... are submarines on the pipe seams? That looks weird!

[@itryen7632]

that map looks like a very sus cross

[@xaif4888]

Broken?? I presume this is tongue in cheek. =P Nice match, always nice to see Sonja fair well in a game I she's my fav CO (I'd say that the battle could have gone either way honestly though... until the opponent seemed to just throw all his units at you...). Map seems overall terrible, I see why they removed it 😂

[@micahwright628]

When the black boat analysis?

[@beansconfrijolitos996]

23:29 wtf mangs usando musica de La Rosa De Guadalupe

[@adept7497]

Omg, did I heard that right? Kindle T2 permanent? Please let this become true. I don't want to be bullied by that stupid walking glory ****** anymore🤬😭

[@ShawFujikawa]

I've played on a variant of this map a couple of times in Z-Games and I did NOT like it lol, and the original version looks even worse. It just looks like it breaks so many important rules in fog mapping about not making maps super chokey or fronts too short or front-switching too long because you just end up with a complete stallfest.

[@MrJinglejanglejingle]

As opposed to what? Tank spam like in LITERALLY EVERY MATCH? Its like watching Super Smash Melee tournaments. There is NOTHING interesting about watching Fox, Falco, Sheik, Pikachu, and the occasional memelord with Jigglypuff or Captain Falcon. At least this map switches things up for once.

[@ShawFujikawa]

​@@MrJinglejanglejingle Yes, I would take tank spam every time. I'm not into change for the sake of change, sorry.

[@icykiwi6650]

What the fuck are those submarines >.>

[@colleenlove2114]

Ok here 🔥 💙🌼

[@DEATHRAGE157]

Kindle should be tier 2 and hawk tier 3 on fog

[@Mangs1337]

Why should fog make Hawke go down 2 tiers?

[@DEATHRAGE157]

@@Mangs1337 bruh im a gamer not a thinker

[@eunito9447]

Can you play vs AI on the url to learn/train or is it pvp?

[@Mangs1337]

There's no AI on AWBW.

[@alex_zetsu]

I still hate comm tower maps, but this was worth watching anyways since seeing Sonja, Adder, Flak, Nell Jess, Sami, Max, Andy, or Kanbei smash Kindle always puts a smile on my face. You can tell which CO I'm not a fan of. And yeah, this is due to the odd map, but still worth seeing for me.

[@Hone_mor2525]

That face Kindle makes in the thumbnail is definitely someone's fetish Mangs' fetish probably

[@monsterchief117]

I don't think moving Kindle up one tier permanently is a good idea. Can't the people running the maps just do the effort of figuring out what maps she's T2 and T3? In Caustic Finale she is T2 and arguably better than T2 COs there besides Sami. In other maps T4 COs can beat her. Just gotta admit that some maps and match ups call for different balancing and the maps should have different selections. Hell, if it was possible to see what CO your opponent will select in T1, picking Max or frickin' Jess would be a viable choice against someone like Sasha in a lot of maps.

[@trigue92]

is that some kind of a replay player or something?