Sonoff mini 2-way 3-way light switching NO-NEUTRAL solved

[@DaveLumby]

What a great solution for older wiring plans, ie where there is no neutral at the switch and/or no permanent live at the light fitting. I'm interested to know whether you have tried the same approach with a Shelly 1 rather than a Sonoff mini?

[@MyProjectBoxChannel]

The circuit works perfectly with Shelly1 as well! I've not done a video on the two-way lighting version of my hack, but it works. I have several "no-neutral" solutions for Shelly1. kzbin.info/www/bejne/nIWWiq2qipeAj6c kzbin.info/www/bejne/j3rXfqhsi696eKs

[@xanox1]

This is an amazing solution. Thank you. I will definitely try this!

[@MyProjectBoxChannel]

This PCB was not designed by me, but I did help and advise the designer. He wanted to be able to change the filter capacitor for different types of LED load. So you connect the capacitor of your choice, directly to the output terminals. The two 500k resistors are in parallel with the capacitor, and are there to safety discharge the capacitor, to prevent a shock from it, because it can hold a charge for a long time. The bigger diodes are simply to make the design more robust bigger ones can probably survive a circuit breaker tripping, if there is a fault or short-circuit. He used a very big fusible resistor for bigger output loads. The PCB works fine but it still needs some work / tweaks. I think the fusible resistor position needs to change. It would be better to only be inline/series with the capacitor. That would prevent it from getting blown from bigger more powerful output loads.

[@davinchewk]

Any chance you can explain the math behind the components chosen for your circuit?

[@RGH-rq4gj]

Hello - thanks for this video. So useful. Any chance you could tell us the exact diodes you used? There seem to be so many options online. Thanks

[@MyProjectBoxChannel]

I used 1N4007 diodes, they are rated at 1Amp. You could use bigger more powerful diodes, if you want the circuit to be super tough and robust. Diodes like the 10A10 , are rated for 10Amp.

[@RGH-rq4gj]

Brilliant, thanks so much. My knowledge is limited but doesn't an LED lightbulb pull more than 1amp? Or is the diode only under strain when the circuit is closed and halfway is going through it powering the Sonof? Also - what would be the advantages / dis-advantages of getting the higher rated diodes? Thanks so much for your time, it's much appreciated @@MyProjectBoxChannel

[@MyProjectBoxChannel]

@@RGH-rq4gj 1AMP at 220v is effectively 220W. Most LED bulbs are not much more than 12w. If you use 10A diodes, that gives you a crazy 2200W to play with. But the reason for possibly using 10A diodes, is in case something goes wrong, and you get a short-circuit. It's makes it more likely the diodes can survive a dramatic event like that, and the circuit breaker tripping without damaging anything. The 10A10 Diodes can handle 10A continues, and over 200A for a brief instant. So it's much harder to destroy a 10A10 Diode, but it's much easier to blow up a 1N4007. The 10A10 is bigger, so it will waste more space than the smaller 1N4007.

[@ixak]

Thanks! Now I have to figure out resistor values for a 110v 60hz Mexican installations 😄

[@MyProjectBoxChannel]

You are welcome to experiment! It might work on 110V as it is. Just make a test circuit, and if you need to reduce the resistor values a bit( you could just use half the value 1/2). I have a different "no-neutral" circuit as well if you want to try. kzbin.info/www/bejne/pXO1ZoJpbpaglcU Good luck 👍

[@moussagt_home9802]

great solution

[@icemike69]

Thank-you for this video. Have you or can you make a video for how to do a no neutral 3 way switch

[@dnadna6593]

Could you give more details of the PCB? what components and how do we connect them?

[@saotekwong3276]

I once saw a "sonoff ZBMINI" like device, I think it is from Tuya. It got a normally open (NO) and normally close (NC) port. Do you think those can be put behind the main switch and the NO and NC ports act as the travellers? Have you seen those before?

[@farsky22]

Nice video, i've created a homemade circuit in Brazil and it works. I would like to print this circuit, do you have any geber files that could share?

[@MyProjectBoxChannel]

I have some prototype files for the shelly1 but it can work with the Sonoff mini-R2 github.com/orlin369/DeNeutralizer/tree/main/DeNeutralizer Here is a NO-NEUTRAL circuit that is also useful kzbin.info/www/bejne/pXO1ZoJpbpaglcU

[@lllsophisticatedlll]

Well, what I did, is to replace the 3 switches with bell switches that are NC (Normally connected), it works sort of when switching to momentary mode. The problem I have is capacitive coupling I think, and when pressing a button, it triggers after a second press when the voltage is drained. So from 3 gang switches, one wire I made L, and second SL via the door bell switch. However don't know how to solve that situation, thinking about putting a diode after switches to make it more sensitive or putting an 1 MOhm resistor between S2 and LOut to put constant load, don't know if it work.

[@petermcneill9728]

Would this work with a UK 3 way switch that has an intermediate switch?

[@MyProjectBoxChannel]

That is a good question 🤔. I in theory it could work, BUT! If the intermediate switch is switched too slowly, then the sonoff will lose power for a brief moment. This might cause problems. The intermediate switch might need diodes aswell. I will have to look into it.

[@petermcneill9728]

@@MyProjectBoxChannel thanks! Intermediate switch has been a pain to try and turn smart in my home. Currently looking at converting them to momentary switches but in an ideal world like to keep the existing switches

[@MyProjectBoxChannel]

@@petermcneill9728 If you live in the UK, it's possible that you likely have the loop-in at ceiling rose, wiring system. That means that you probably have all the connections you need, for the sonoff mini, at the ceiling rose. kzbin.info/www/bejne/kJKki3RufseUh7c Also 3-way lighting is often wired differently than in Europe. So if you want to do the "diodes circuit" , you might just need a single diode to make it work. That could make things very simple.

[@Hristo.Dimitrov]

Hi again @MyProjectBox... do you know how to connect sonoff switch, shelly or any smart switch to short distance touchless pir sensor like this one - "or-cr-213 short distance pir sensor" I'm using such sensor in my kitchen and with moving my hand near the sensor the led light in the kitchen is turning on. I want to connect the sensor to smart switch and to keep using both - the switch and the physical sensor. The pir sensor has 3 wires: phase, N and COM

[@felipetomaz1843]

Hi, smart solutions by using half of the sinusoidal wave. Looking into this solution for three way, I was wondering if you really need two diodes for both switches, I suppose it would also work if just one of the switches had those two diodes. So, you could choose the first or the second switch and insert the diodes, because even so there is always a path for the current. Am I right? Regards..

[@MyProjectBoxChannel]

You are correct, in that, if the switches are static, in one or other positions. With just 2 diodes on one switch, you do have a continuous path. BUT! There will be a brief moment when the "switch with no diodes", transitions from one position to a another. Then there is no connection to the travelers/strappers , until it makes contact again. It's very quick, but it might cause problems with the Sonoff not being powered for a split second. You could build a test rig to verify if this dead time will cause problems. Maybe if with some types of switches you deliberately switch them slowly.

[@felipetomaz1843]

@@MyProjectBoxChannel Indeed! Maybe adding a capacitor would provide the energy for that short time. By the way, the 4 diodes will guarantee that, for sure. Regards.

[@MyProjectBoxChannel]

@@felipetomaz1843 yes you could add a capacitor at the Sonoff, in the same way as it is by the LED bulb🤔😉👍

[@dnadna6593]

Is there a reason why you chose the Shelly1 and sonoff mini? will this work with other modules like the tuya zigbee switch modules(from Moes for e.g.)?

[@MyProjectBoxChannel]

It is possible that other smart switches could work with this circuit. It would require some experimentation.

[@andreasj.411]

@MyProjectBoxChannel hey, I saw your pcb layouts on github and i wanted to know why you exchanged the 10uF capacitor after Lout of the Sonnoff with 2 500k resistors? Can you please explain why you did this? As you said you added the capacitor against flickering. So why and how are those 2 resistors do that job now instead ? Another question I have is why you didn't put 10A diodes directly instead of changing from 1A to 3A ? For safety reasons .... wouldn't it be senceful to use diodes with the max. current the sonoff supports from its side, even if noone would usualyy not use 2000W lightning at all? So the diodes behind the switch never should get overloaded by some faults. And as my last question, because I don't really get it somewhere .... what is R3 for an exact value (what means 5W5?) and what is that resistor used for? Thank you very very much for your efforts !!! You make really great work !!! thx

[@MyProjectBoxChannel]

This PCB was not designed by me, but I did help and advise the designer. He wanted to be able to change the filter capacitor for different types of LED load. So you connect the capacitor of your choice, directly to the output terminals. The two 500k resistors(makes 1M resistor)are in parallel with the output capacitor, and are there to safety discharge the capacitor, to prevent a shock from it, because it can hold a charge for a long time. The bigger diodes are simply to make the design more robust. If you use 10Amp diodes they could survive a short-circuit/fault , and circuit breaker tripping. The "big fusible resistor" was chosen by the designer, for bigger output loads. But I think it would be better to move the resistor, and now put it inline/series with the output capacitor. That would prevent it getting blown by bigger/ more powerful loads. It would no longer have to carry the full output current, just the inrush current limiting to the capacitor, and ripple current. The PCB works great, but needs more work/tweaking. I don't like the big power resistor, as the fusible resistor. So that's why I want to change the position, so you can use a smaller one. It's still a work in progress 😉.

[@andreasj.411]

@@MyProjectBoxChannel thank you so much for the explanation and a nice xmas :). Now it's totally clear, after you explained it again. Don't know why I didn't notice that by myself :D So, if I see it correctly on the pcb layout you either use a resistor OR a fuse, correct? In the schemativ you have a resistor AND the fuse in series, but on the pcb is only one component placed (R3). Is that correct ?

[@MyProjectBoxChannel]

@@andreasj.411 In my original design I used a special type of resistor, called a fusible resistor. It behaves as both a fuse and a resistor combined. You can also create your own fusible resistor, by putting a resistor in series with a fuse. The there are different versions of the pcb. I think the designer chose a really big power resistor, for heavy loads. I'm not sure if he chose a big "fusible-resistor", or just a big ceramic resistor, but you could make it fusible. You just use a resistor+fuse. I'm starting to think that this resistor used as the main protection fuse, could be problematic for bigger loads. His solution was just use a bigger resistor, but I prefer to move it out of the main current path. A bit like in this video kzbin.info/www/bejne/o6vRqWOupKtrec0

[@jokskot]

Why not use the S1 S2 connection for multiway switching?

[@MyProjectBoxChannel]

To do that, you need a neutral wire behind the switch. And you need to somehow access both ends of the feeds, to both switches (for the 2wire system). You could do it in the UK, with the 3wire multi-way switching, commonly used over there. My circuit hack gives people options, if they can't easily pull extra wires to the switch boxes.

[@irishpete79]

Any chance you could explain how to do that with a uk 2-way 3 core and earth setup ? No neutrals at switch. Trying and failing to get it right with a ZB Mini L 😢

[@Milkdromida]

​@@irishpete79 Did you end up doing it? Got an Aqara relay I want to add to my 2 way setup

[@thebatu89]

Hi, is there a detailed instruction to assemble the pcb?

[@MyProjectBoxChannel]

We had some prototype PCBs manufactured, and we are still testing them for problems and improvements. There will be a github with all the designs soon.

[@thebatu89]

@@MyProjectBoxChannel thanks, thought i’ve missed a video that shows how to build that pcb

[@Hristo.Dimitrov]

@@MyProjectBoxChannel Can we receive the designs already or they are still in progress? Regards..

[@MyProjectBoxChannel]

@@Hristo.Dimitrov It's not quite ready yet, but you can look at the github. We want to do a version that is compatible with shelly1 and sonoff mini-R2. github.com/orlin369/DeNeutralizer The pcb is designed in KiCad.

[@Hristo.Dimitrov]

@@MyProjectBoxChannel thank you I will take a look at the diagrams. Also if you start selling your prototype I will order couple pieces for me and my friends. I'm using aqara eco system but I think this will work for aqara t1 switches as well.

[@Hristo.Dimitrov]

Will this work with Aqara Single Switch Module T1 ?

[@MyProjectBoxChannel]

I've not tried it yet, but it is possible that it could work. Some experimentation may be required.

[@Hristo.Dimitrov]

Tested with Aqara T1 relay switch and works fine.🎉

[@MyProjectBoxChannel]

@@Hristo.Dimitrov nice👍Thanks for letting us know😉. It will probably work with this circuit aswell. kzbin.info/www/bejne/pXO1ZoJpbpaglcU

[@Hristo.Dimitrov]

@@MyProjectBoxChannel I mount it on diagram with two two-way switches and one 4 way switch between them, but in some positions the switches does not turn on the lights. Should I put diodes into the four-way switch as well in order to keep the diagram loaded and how to wire them to the four-way switch. If you can give me advice on how to put the diodes in the four-way switch will be great.

[@MyProjectBoxChannel]

@@Hristo.Dimitrov that is a good question 🤔. I have not tested the intermediate switch (Cross switch) with diodes yet. I will need to do some testing to verify that it kzbin.info/www/bejne/nKOQo3ebaLOVhrs

[@Sc00ter]

Did you mean 3-way light switch?

[@Peter.Sky.Walker]

It's so dumb that we call them 3-way switches. They should be called 2-way switches.

[@MyProjectBoxChannel]

In electronics it's called change over switch. Single pole double throw.

[@DaveLumby]

Comments about 3-way switching have confused the hell out of me in the past, as most countries outside the US use the term n-way to refer to a circuit with n switches controlling a single light/group of lights, ie 2-way uses 2 x SPDT switches, 3-way uses 2 x SPDT switches and an intermediate DPDT switch, 4-way = 2 x SPDT switches and 2 intermediate DPDT switches, etc. It's a good job we don't have alternative meanings for things like 'pavement' 😉🤣

[@MyProjectBoxChannel]

@@DaveLumby I'm sticking with 2-way light switching. But I will respect the Americans calling it 3-way. On "DIY Wiki" it's called 2-way! that's good enough for me. wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/2_Way_Switching I'm also fine with: lamp or light bulb or globe. Electricians can be very pedantic about names for things😂😂😂😂😂. They might call a 12 volt LED power supply, a ballast or a driver.

[@willdwyer6782]

Sonoff is junk. Everybody in the US that I've seen try to use them ends up regretting it. Their products do not meet US electrical code at all. The products you're using in your video are only rated for 10 amps while the lowest amperage rating on a residential circuit breaker is 15 amps, which means they can start an electrical fire before the circuit breaker can cut the power.

[@MyProjectBoxChannel]

It depends on the country you live in. In the UK with everything on 230v, a lighting circuit is normally on a 6 amp breaker. So the 10A rating is fine. But I know what you mean. I think a "local" internal ( inside the sonoff) fuse would be a good idea. LED lighting draws very low current, but it the fault current, a failure somewhere, that the problem.

[@matthewhickok4421]

I just purchased a few Sonoff BasicR2 (for lamp cords) and Sonoff MiniR2 (for light switches). I have not yet received the order, but I was wondering if the low price was any indication of quality. I also live in the US and plan on experimenting with these. I only want devices that are compatible with the Tasmota firmware. So, what model do you recommend other than the Sonoff brand.

[@scottwardle4627]

@wildwyer6782, do you recommend any other brands to look at?