Sorry Major, you are not cutting it flying the T-38. T-38 instructor tales from Edwards AFB

Sorry Major, you are not cutting it flying the T-38. T-38 instructor tales from Edwards AFB

[@Tool-Meister]

In the Late 70’s I was offered a P51 ride from San Jose to Reno. and backThe owner was Very Proud of his P51, and rightly so. I was pilot in command both directions. He THE BEST instructor I ever encountered. I’m sure his hand hovered a 1/4” from the stick the whole trip, BUT I was executing his every instruction for both trips. HE was amazing. With those two trips under my belt, I’m confident I could pilot the P51 if called to do it

[@LJDRVR]

In my 41 years as an aviator, there are a couple of truisms with almost a Newtonian certainty. (Think the law of gravity.) One of those is the inverse relation between pilot ego and talent. The very best aviators - good hands, planet encompassing SA, great personalities - are uniformly humble and accountable for their errors. And there aren't many errors with these cats. During the primary flight instructor portion of my career, one of these guys walked into my FBO and expressed a desire to get checked out in our J-3 Cub. When he returned on the appointed day, logbook in hand, I asked to see his logbook. He sheepishly handed it over, as if he was embarrassed by it. Midway down the first page, under "type" I saw an entry for NA-51. My tiny pilot brain figured that one out and I asked him "Did you fly Lee's (Lauderback) airplane?" "No," he admitted "That's Elmer's (Bernstein) Mustang." As my eyes travelled down the page, I saw multiple P-51 N-numbers. The next page revealed types such as FG-1D, ME-109G, T-6C, T-28C, etc. We flew the Cub. The stick only moved exactly as much as required to put the airplane exactly where it needed to be. The ball (Which he couldn't see from the back seat) remained in the middle of the inclinometer like it had been cemented there. After some cursory and perfect takeoffs and landings plus steep turns and a stall series, I'd seen more than enough and told him to RTB. "I haven't flown here at Addison since I delivered the museums's -109. Show me the landmarks and airspace boundries, please?" And so I did. He also gave me a pattern because he knew we CFI's didn't get to fly much. That's a favor I've returned ever since with every checkout and BFR I've ever flown. It was thus that I got to meet Scott Sherman. Denny's kid. Soloed a T-28C on his 16th birthday. Flew A-7's on active duty. Was an American Captain when I met him. Humble, generous, and a genuinely nice guy. The best always are. Scott didn't want to show me his logbook because he wanted me to treat him like the novice pilot he viewed himself, not as the accomplished warbird guy he was. I'll never fly an airplane like Scott, even though I'll keep trying to. But I can emulate his humility and generosity.

[@ronrogers]

Great story and I completely agree. I tend to downplay my background so someone doesn't think I need less training than I actually do. The good old "halo effect" can lead to abbreviated training when I do need the training!

[@nunyabidness3075]

I sort temporally experienced that phenomenon. I was about halfway through my private pilot training in a 172 with my instructor. As we taxied out he was telling me he was kind of worried about me because he had never had a student make it so far without having made more than trivial errors. So, as we left the ground, I noticed the plane was flying kind of sideways and I corrected that by pushing the left rudder even harder! I then realized my mistake, my humility returned, and my instructor strangely felt better. I was never a great pilot, but I did try hard not to REALLY mess up. Other than a few hard landings, and a couple times I aggravated a controller, I managed to put in around 500 hours without any real errors or insurance claims. 👍 I suppose it helped no one was puffing up my ego after that.

[@coptertim]

@@LJDRVR Encountering a pilot like that early in your CFI career is a real gift. One of my first BFR's as a helicopter CFI was with a retired 18k hour ATP, typed in everything from Connies to MD-11's. I was scared to death, he had 5k in helicopters. After a 1.5 ride we sat for 3 hours over coffee, no boasting, he just offered me the benefit of his experience. After he left I realized with his experience he must have known CFI's that could have signed off his BFR. I began to think he may have used it as a way for a retired pilot to share his knowledge with someone like me. If it was, I appreciated it and I took advantage of every minute. There is one thing I learned a long time ago, the guys with the best stories, generally, have the least to offer. This man's quiet confidence came from knowledge and experience that he was happy to share.

[@mchristr]

Hi Ron. In 1977 I was a T-38 mechanic assigned to the 43d Flying Training Squadron at Craig AFB. That airplane was fun to crew and I loved launching 2 and 4-ship sorties. While there a student did the sabre dance over the runway and scraped the wingtip. Both the student and IP lived to tell the tale. BTW, the student went on to fly F-15s and a stellar Air Force career.

[@jefreagan]

My dad started his training at Craig AFB in Alabama, then went to Laredo AFB. Both are closed now. He was also an instructor at Williams AFB in Arizona. I know you couldn’t have met him since he became a pilot in 1962, but your stories sound very much like his, back when he talked about work. After Vietnam in ‘68 flying Phantom F4Es, he was a different man. He would never admit it, but I believe that experience wore on him worse than he let on. I love your channel and your very entertaining stories. I wish you well.

[@F104G826]

Ron, digress all you want! The area badge, T-38s, SR-71s, low humidity, swamp coolers, housing areas with lawns/trees in desert, ten-thousand contractor people every day, pulling rank, Joint Test Force, guard shacks, stickers, neighborhood gone, Palmdale, etc., are all good to hear.

[@DJ-zp2tr]

Really enjoy your stories. I was in the T-38's at Holloman in the late 70's instructing Fighter Lean In for a variety of guys selected for fighters including Germans, Danish, Saudi, Kenyan, as well as new UPT grads and FAIPs. We had one IP that wanted to go to EDW and he was selected after a while. He was a by the book pilot, so we figured he would be good for that environment. Most of us were much more loose in our rule following and let our hair down quite a bit there. To this day, I can't believe some of the stuff we got away with. But then, post Viet Nam was an era of craziness in the fighter world. We had a 50% DOS rate back then.

[@ronrogers]

Thanks for sharing! Great times. I wonder how your IP friend did? Back then Edwards was more loose than most operational commands, and a very challenging place to work. You had to be very flexible and push many boundaries that most did not push.

[@josephdrbohlav5705]

I've got that beat. I was in class 90-01 at Williams AFB in 1989 flying the T-38 in "Beer Can" flight after squeaking by in the T-37. I had difficulty landing the T-38 as I would make steep final approaches and pull my power early. I could land safely, but most of my IP's would take the jet and grade me "Unsat" on landings. This continued until I failed an Initial Progress Check (IPC) and then went on a Final Progress Check (FPC) late on a Friday afternoon. On this flight, the former A-10 pilot that was flying my FPC asked me to do a single engine, heavy weight, no flap straight in. This is very difficult to fly in the T-38 as you simulate engine failure on take off and fly the outer pattern with one engine in idle as you set up for a straight in approach. On this particular Friday afternoon, the temperature was very hot and the density altitude very high as a result. I was in and out of afterburner coming down final. About a half mile from the runway I suddenly saw the horizon coming straight up in my peripheral vision--like I was on an outdoor elevator going straight down. The instructor noted the stall at the same time and took the jet. We nearly crashed in the overrun. I knew at that moment that I had failed the FPC and there was no way he could pass me--if I were solo, I would have died. After my work in the MOA, I returned to the pattern for a few overhead patterns with my characteristic steep finals and early power pulls. I landed all of them, but they were ugly. I was relaxing on the taxi back to the ramp knowing pilot training was over for me and I was relieved. Then the Captain came over the intercom and said "Well you're solo'n on Monday!"

[@dks13827]

at least you weren't solo that day !!!

[@jcheck6]

What happened on your solo? Btw I was in Raindance/Boomer about 17 years before you...ouch. You must have been one of the last classes before they closed Willie....the best UPT base ever.

[@josephdrbohlav5705]

@@jcheck6 Well, I was a newly married 2LT having just graduated from USAFA. So that weekend, I put a copy of my life insurance policy out on my desk in our little apartment where my wife would be sure to find it (true). It made more sense to me at the time as a 23 year old to crash and burn rather than admit I couldn't really fly. I obviously survived my solo, but not without a bit of drama. On my final touch and go I flew a closed pattern and then called "full stop" as I was down to the 1000 lbs min fuel for a solo student. In the final turn, I noticed I didn't have the minimum quarter mile separation from the jet in front of me and I was waiting for the RSU to call my go around. He never did, so I landed on the opposite side of the runway as the jet in front of me. As I began my aerobrake, I caught the wake turbulence from the jet ahead and had to put the nose wheel down on the runway. I was braking as hard as I could, but couldn't get the jet to slow down. I was supposed to be at "taxi" speed at the 1000 foot remaining marker, but I blew past that. I skidded my jet around the hammerhead and parked my jet on the ramp. When I got out to do my post flight, I could feel the heat radiating from the brakes. I'll never forget the knowing, evil eye the crew chief gave me as I walked away. I was a disaster and had no business being in pilot training and I knew it. I finally could not fake it any longer in the formation flying phase of T-38 because you fly solo just about every other flight in formation with a classmate. I SIE'ed (Self Initiated Elimination) after flying wingman with a classmate who was flying lead as a solo student. He was trying to get me to do a turning rejoin which I could not do. After my IP took my jet to avoid a midair collision, he then "hooked" both me and my classmate for failure to adequately execute the turning rejoin. I realized that I was now screwing over my classmates who had a legitimate chance to be competent pilots, so I quit. The Air Force made me a nuclear weapons officer and assigned me to a B-1B munitions maintenance squadron. It turned out to be a super interesting and challenging assignment, but it took me a long time to get over my failure as a pilot. By the way--as a senior cadet at the Air Force Academy, I struggled in the T-41 training program (Cessna 182) that is supposed to identify and eliminate cadets with poor airmanship skills from attending UPT. I failed check rides, landed short, and did all kinds of stupid stuff. I talked to anybody that would listen at the time, mostly professors who were also Air Force pilots, telling them that I thought I shouldn't go to pilot training and maybe do something else in the Air Force. EVERYONE advised me to go to pilot training and it would be different without all the other hassles of the Academy life. I listened to them, and it turned out to be a huge mistake. For many years after quitting pilot training, I was really hard on myself. As a near 60 year old, I am a bit more philosophical now. There was a strong push at the time to get all medically qualified academy grads to attend and graduate pilot training, and the powers to be looked the other way when someone with demonstrably poor airmanship skills came along. 22 year olds don't always make the best decisions in life.

[@jcheck6]

@@josephdrbohlav5705 So sorry Joe and appreciate your honesty. UPT was a challenge and we all sweated it. At least you found something in the AF that captured your interest. My Academy grad UPT roommate (we had an apt together in Tempe) washed out in '37's due to rejoins. Turned out he need glasses but by then it was too late. He became an F-4 WSO and later the AF sent him to law school and much later became an AF judge. He handled 3 very important AF cases....the F-15/AWACS shoot down of a friendly Army helo in Europe, the '96 Khobar Towers bombing, and Sec Brown's T-43 crash in Europe. He retired as Federal Judge.

[@dburton7929]

Oh, the gathering of enormous ego’s here is amusing and obvious…..sickening……

[@yellow73914]

Rank should never matter in the cockpit. Physics doesn't care if you're a 2Lt or a General (4 star). Humility and a willingness to accept instruction are the hallmark of good pilots. Ego and superiority complexes are the signifiers of dangerous pilots. I'd rather fly with a humble 500hr pilot any day than a cocky 20,000hr pilot.

[@matthewnewnham-runner-writer]

Thanks for sharing, @ronrogers. A group of us ROTC cadets from the University of Washington visited Edwards AFB in 1977. The highlight was seeing an F-16 beat up an F-4, and seeing an SR-71 in the hangar. That was very inspirational for my short lived fighter pilot career (curtailed by cataracts). Lots of great memories!

[@ronrogers]

Sorry about your eye issue! But yes, a great time to visit Edwards!

[@rlsmith6904]

I was briefly at Edwards for Boeing. I loved it. And I love your stories. Thank you.

[@ronrogers]

Awesome! Thank you!

[@martinleicht5911]

I used to fly photo recon in T 41s over Panama city when I was stationed at Tyndall !! 😂

[@gejjamp]

The T-38A did fly before the F-5. I had a student from the reserves whose father worked for Northrup. His dad sent him a copy of the original flight manual which actually had a flameout pattern in it.

[@DCSHacks]

Fantastic story! Keep them coming!

[@ronrogers]

Thanks! Will do!

[@gastonbell108]

Seen this with foreign pilots. In every class there's at least one "boulder" - some poor IP's gotta manually push him up the hill like a boulder while everybody else waits and watches with their fingers crossed, because sending him home isn't an option (politically), and if he falls out of the sky, he's gonna squash that IP in the process. It got so bad that we were prohibited from using the word "boulder" to describe students who were impossible to fail for political reasons (because it offended command). They came up with some other cute term which meant exactly the same thing without saying so.

[@jamesgraham6122]

I once had the opportunity.. and privilege, to witness an Edwards AFB test pilot operating in the high-speed program in a simulator. the simulator was based at a FlightSafety facility and the aircraft was a simple twin turbo-prop 'Beech 1900D'.. Goodness knows why he had to check out on this, the guy was of Astronaut level ability.. maybe Edwards used it to pop out to pick up Pizzas.. I can tell you now as his instructor, there are poor pilots. average pilots, good pilots and exceptional pilots.. Beyond that, there is a level that us humble, everyday pilots are not aware even exists. You'll find them at Edwards.

[@songjunejohnlee2113]

Thanks for the inside stories on life at Edwards, that picture of your front yard with the sweet 70s van and Big Wheel says it all and really takes me back. Once in the 80s when I was a college intern at Hughes Aircraft in El Segundo I rode my motorcycle out to Edwards hoping to catch a glimpse of the glory but by that time civilians couldn't get past the front gate. It's some consolation knowing I only missed the window by about 10 years lol.

[@ohrazda1956]

The ratio of humility to skill is a bench mark I often used while working on my instrument ticket years ago. Our small band of pilots quickly learned from one another and made for interesting "hangar flying" on foul weather afternoons. The quiet guys are constantly learning and figuring out how to improve their game.

[@ShadesOClarity]

Love the "Tales From Edwards AFB."

[@ronrogers]

Thanks!

[@songjunejohnlee2113]

Agree!

[@batgoat28]

The rare double digress, nice.

[@ronrogers]

I do the best I can!

[@noyfub]

T-39 was a North American Sabreliner, Not a Beechjet.

[@ronrogers]

Yes my bad. I was thinking about the UPT twin hair dryer cabin cruiser or ....just checking if anyone was paying attention! That the ticket!!

[@craigpatterson3612]

I lived at 6832 Payne. Just a couple blocks over.

[@gregj831]

I was an Air Force Pilot and after my tour with a major weapon system I had to pay the piper and go back AETC to be an instructor and I was excited because I really wanted to be a T-37 Instructor but that was until I saw an opportunity to go instruct for the Navy in their T-34C. I thought the instructor checkout was pretty straightforward, but we had a senior Air Force Captain who could not get through the Navy checkout program. I really felt it wasn't an ability issue but more rather, the guy just didn't want to fly anymore. He was kind of intellectual type and ended up writing for the Base Newspaper.

[@lawrencequave7361]

Not a millionaire and never been close to a T-38 (much less flown one), but if I were a Tom Cruise and could own my own air force, I've always thought the one aircraft I'd like to have in my 'garage' to fly around on weekends and at air shows as my 'Maserati show off car', would be the T-38 Talon. I'd have the back cockpit done up in all pink just to please all the hot chics I'd be giving free rides to by the hundreds. Not many things I call sexy (other than gorgeous women), but a T-38 would be a worthy exception. The F-5 may be great at 'blowin' things away', but a T-38 would be my chic magnet. (Okay, yes ladies. So I'm thinkin'--dreaming--55 years ago.)

[@coptertim]

I never understood why pilots push back on critical check rides when all the instructor is trying to do is keep you alive.

[@williamfelker6963]

The Thing Is Called EGO

[@coptertim]

​@@HerbertTowers Commercial/CFI helicopter.

[@oxxnarrdflame8865]

Geez. Why would you turn down a couple of free airplane rides? 😊 The T38 what a beautiful aircraft. I’m glad I got to fly it.

[@kshepard52]

...you turn left about 5 miles before where that old tree used to be...

[@ChiIeboy]

LOVE this channel!!

[@ronrogers]

Thanks so much!!

[@Sams911]

I imagine today it works differently if you fit under a DEI program... checkout high the 5-6 flights or even more

[@wtdrone1234]

Majors were the worst; when they go from captain to major they have to get a new helmet. LC's were a little better and when they got full Nerd Colonel, they got over their ego (mostly).

[@gregj831]

You're right! We had a couple of Majors who allowed their B-52 to be off altitude by over 1500ft before someone caught it and there was an Evaluator Pilot in the jumpseat. He rightfully gave both Majors a Q3 but then higher ups got involved and changed the Q3s to a Q2s and then gave the navigator and radar navigator Q3's for failure to monitor altitude. Back in the day those SAC bases were like mini-Roman Empires with no adult supervision and if you didn't tow the party-line then you were on the outside looking in. Very Political.

[@anybody1955]

Interesting I always found LCs the worse. Well, at least the LtCols who thought they should be Colonels. But if majors are the worst, I am proud to end my AF career there.

[@l4c390]

What kind of pilot would turn down free stick time to brush up on skills after flying a desk?

[@Parawingdelta2]

My father was in the Royal Air Force from 1937 to 1972, eventually retiring as an air traffic controller. During the fifties and sixties it wasn't unusual for pilots to be NCOs (Sergeant pilots) and in the case of multi crew aircraft (typically, maritime patrol) they, of course, were the aircraft captain with authority over commissioned officers designated in other aircrew roles. I often wondered if there was any attempt at 'rank pulling'.

[@sshannon1948]

The Major needs a little dose of humility me thinks...

[@ronrogers]

Big dose!!

[@WilliamnWendySue]

I was a senior evaluator in two MWS (C-17 and C-130J), including the schoolhouse at Little Rock in 2005-2009. It was always interesting as a Captain/Major to see the most difficult clients were always the higher ranking guys who spent most of their time at staff or admin and were barely capable of handling the airplane, but for reasons you know, we passed them, but they never flew “unsupervised” after that.

[@ronrogers]

Was Steve Moore still in the squadron? He was a UPT classmate of mine.

[@murrayhelmer8941]

That’s a Rockwell / North American Sabre business jet !!

[@jonniez62]

I lived in A area housing, right across from the trailer park on Fitzgerald.

[@xdays8806]

North American built the T-39, not Beechcraft.

[@ronrogers]

Yes my bad. I was thinking about the UPT twin hair dryer cabin cruiser or ....just checking if anyone was paying attention! That the ticket!!

[@KerryKearns-m3i]

North American T-39, systems and wing very F-86. Not a Beech product.

[@ronrogers]

Yes my bad. I was thinking about the UPT twin hair dryer cabin cruiser or ....just checking if anyone was paying attention! That the ticket!!

[@mikewysko2268]

Thanks Ron. 🛬

[@ronrogers]

You are very welcome!

[@Vifiatos]

Every base house I ever lived was demolished now. Only one left is civilian housing at RAF Bentwaters UK.

[@ronrogers]

Wow!

[@roberttraynham9784]

The very best AF pilots are the instructors at Weapons School.

[@ronrogers]

You got that right!

[@mineown1861]

I wonder if rank pulling is what totalled that a Apache in Utah . Is it optimum to have one pilot available who will outrank anybody receiving a check ride ?

[@stephenhudson8739]

Hey Ron They are tearing down the old water tower at Vance Air Force Base

[@lenmeabuk8727]

The old : Sabre Liner....

[@planeflyer21]

Thanks, Ron! Your ID states "USAF CONTROLLED AREA BADGE (ACCOUNTABLE)". Was there an "unaccountable" rating?

[@ronrogers]

I imagine there was, but no one would accept it from me and I was running out of time to turn it in.

[@Wireman68]

Should be the south end of a mule because the mule is more sure footed compared to a horse.

[@MACHJOCK]

I see...

[@petervandolah5322]

North American Beech Sabreliner ...

[@deanc.5984]

I wonder what kind of "deficiencies" were on those two pages!?

[@ronrogers]

Just about everything you could imagine!

[@johnmorykwas2343]

We call those Ike the major politically commission officers who are politically promoted, like DEI today.

[@jameshilyard1885]

One day the Air Force will wise up to how the Army uses Warrant Officers as Pilots. Cheaper, and a lot less ego. No place for the Academy Grads, but what the heck.

[@ronrogers]

I don't have a lot of experience with warrant officers except for a close family relative (not blood) who became an officer after 20 years enlisted. You would have thought he had become an Admiral! There was a home town event (his) where he (he was part of the ceremonies) asked that only the "officer" veterans stand. It was just the two of us. I have never served in combat and neither has he. He was in the Navy 20 and never stationed on a ship. The room was full of farmer WWII combat veterans who should have been honored (were not asked to stand or even acknowledged). I was very embarrassed. I felt I should have said something, but it wasn't my event, not my home town and I didn't want to cause family trouble. But I should have asked ALL veterans to stand and I regret that I did not.

[@Littlebigbot]

The Air Force is doing fine with officer pilots.

[@kq2799]

6:30 Was that mamas Chevelle parked in the street?

[@ronrogers]

Malibu

[@garyw8481]

@@ronrogers A Malibu is a Chevelle.

[@ronrogers]

Ok, I see where the confusion comes from.... For 1971, the base Chevelle was called just that, a Chevelle. VINs started with 133xx (6-cyl) or 134xx (V8). Malibus were 135xx and 136xx. The Malibu was an 'upscale' Chevelle much like an Impala or Caprice is an upscale Biscayne. All 69 to 71 SS cars were based on the Malibu but there's nothing in the VIN or on the trim tag (except Canadian cars) that denote the SS option. From 65 to 68, the SS was a separate model (137xx and 138xx) and 64s were 457xx and 458xx.

[@kq2799]

@@ronrogers Hell, the Pontiac community will draw knives if you confuse a Tempest/leMans with a GTO...

[@unlvqasl]

Ron is spending too much of this post talking about irrelevant drivel.

[@tomk8663]

Are you saying he "digresses?"