Improving Drum Sound & Projection at a Distance | Season Three, Episode 3

[@I-LOG]

Great video! I personally tune my toms very high and with both heads to (roughly) the same pitch. I know that's more of a jazz or bebop thing, and I play rock (classic/indie), but I love the sound of old 60's rock records where the drums are tuned up like that and being recorded with only one or two mics at a distance. As for my kick I tune both heads to the same pitch again but I stick a wrapped up blanket against the batter head and and let the unported reso head do most of the tone work so I can bury the beater. My snare is tuned up really high, it's a wood 14x5 and the crack is crazy if I do a rimshot. I don't use any muffling on my snare or toms to encourage as much tone and ring as I can, all my heads are coated (top and bottom) but I've thought about changing all my heads from coated to smooth white to bring out every drop of the possible tone without needing to use clear heads (I'm not big fan of the look of clear heads)

[@StickTonesMusic]

Glad you're addressing this. It's something I constantly think about when gigging. Sometimes you never really know what the room acoustics and mic situation will be until you get there, and as drummers, it can be difficult to judge the sound in the room because you are stuck behind the kit. I'm reminded of a situation I found myself in last year. I was booked to play an outdoor show for a brewery's anniversary party, and had worked with the sound engineer many times. He had always complimented my drum sound; I would typically tune lower for a more dead sound, as this worked well with the close mics, and to combat the reflections off of his hard backed, portable stage. Well, after the first couple songs, the sky opened up with rain. When the rain slacked, we quickly moved to a backup plan to play in their warehouse, which was packed wall to wall with standing patrons. Due to the quick switch, we were forgoing all drum mics, except the kick drum. It was a mad rush to alter my tuning, because I knew what worked best for his close mics would never carry with no mics. I only had time for an educated guess on tuning, and just had to hope it worked.

[@johncollins5552]

7 years stage manager, helping young players at band showcases in my local small city before that I gigged those same venues on drums. I now know more and before a gig I ask the drummer if they want me tune the set For the Room! Sit and get even tension on all heads. Then they play and I walk away, come back and tweak up or down pitches to suit the room. It's a World of tuning. Could spend all day but usual you have 10 minutes! Often they hate jazzy tom tuning I love but admit it's easier to play when batters aren't dead low and unresponsive that's common problem. Sound engineers don't tune but throw gaffer tape everywhere!

[@dbsendyd]

I recently got Zoom H4n Pro for drum recording. Which is a single stereo mic. Experimenting with mic placement, I realized that when I placed it like room mic, more distance between drum and mic, the thinner the sound becomes. Then I placed it behind the drums just like overhead mics and it sounded amazing. toms and snare drum sounded much richer with more low-end, punch, and volume. It's my first recording experience and I'm having a lot of fun thanks to you guys and other great people on KZbin!

[@SoundsLikeADrum]

Absolutely! That's essentially the concept demonstrated here. Now, as a challenge, see how close you can get your drum sound in the room mic position to match the overhead position.

[@dbsendyd]

@@SoundsLikeADrum Wow, what a concept! Thanks a lot. I'll try that soon.

[@drummerjoey003]

tuna huma, I have the same camera and have it placed behind me, but roughly five to six feet away. I’ll have to try it the way you have it to see if the recording sounds better for when I do my drum covers. The reason why I have my zoom that far behind me is to pick up the music and my drums at the same time, probably sounds crazy.

[@jbfrite1]

I will say this...your Tom's sound amazing!! I always learn cool stuff watching your series. I recently acquired a Ludwig black magic 8 x14 for a birthday gift and went all the way back to season 1 episode 1 to tune that bad boy. Thanks for all of your pointers. Keep it up guys!!

[@kushking420]

This is really interesting cause i'm so used to playing in basements or garages, when i go to a bar/club i always tune lower so i don't over shadow the music cause i tend to have deadly loud rim shots

[@kevinonthedrums7495]

I discovered the issues of the JAW which I normally use when I started recording myself. I have a snare, bass drum, and two overheads. The overheads would barely pick my toms up. When I increased the pitch, they started singing and were beautiful. Thanks for going into all the specifics with this. You guys rock!

[@liamdrzewicki6558]

No matter what, you guys always have the best show to watch. For my toms, I tend to go for a mid tuning, with my reso higher. It sits nicely with me

[@urbanhellhole]

Oooh this one is exciting! I've been trying stuff out too, in order to have my drums project more than the other kits in my practice space. As I couldn't move my drums, I resorted to trying other things. Changing from muffled heads on the toms like Pinstripes or EC2s to UV2 really helped a bunch on projection. On my snare I went from a P77 to a Ambassador CS X, which made the drum crack and sing way more. I tuned them the same way. I find that it's fine line between having a sound that you can enjoy behind the kit, as well as in front of it. Great video guys!

[@sccrash420]

Excellent video. I remember discussing this topic with my instructor in the late 90s.

[@jonashellborg8320]

Really great video! Coming from rock and metal, I have definitely seen the advice about “tabletop tight snare” and “just above wrinkle” for kick and toms. And been to numerous shows where I get to listen to just snare and cymbals because those are the only things that project. I try to go for a medium tuning most of the time, it sure travels better than the above wrinkle tuning, and with the snare in that ballpark, the whole thing sounds more like 1 ensemble.

[@SAHBfan]

I play jazz in small groups as well as big band jazz. A big problem I have is that I am often playing with other musicians standing or sitting very close to me. They often can be quite vocal about the drum sound, insisting I muffle Roma or stuff something in the bass drum. They aren’t so interested in tone, they just think ‘muffle = quieter”. Then on a gig the audience complains they can’t hear the drums - or more likely they can hear the cymbals but not the bass drum or toms. I am experienced enough to know that you should tune for the audience, not the stage - but other band members can be hard work - especially if they have an amplifier with a volume knob :(

[@yelltempus]

SUPER TOPIC & as usual, perfectly presented. Really clicked on the comment about your younger self not really digging the higher tuning. Most of my playing was done without mics (well, a Radio Shack PZM in the kick) & I figured out, at some point years ago, that I would tune my drums to where they sounded great to me & then I'd turn every rod on the kit am 1/8th to a 1/4 turn to the right. This would add a bit of ring I didn't like but, out front the drums sounded like the tuning I did before the tweak. Somebody told me that the ring was like the carry signal for FM radio. You had to have it to get it to the people. Definitely took me a while to accept but, now things don't sound right without it.

[@onn.drummer]

Projection is good when you have "bad microphones situation" on the concert.. I realized it far too late 😅 Thanks for good content💪

[@dontgotocollege5232]

For most musicians this should be expected. Or even no drum mics at all

[@artcorvolet]

I’ve been studying this on my own lately...my teacher has me tuning the pitch up for un-mic’d situations. The pitch drops as it travels. I’m definitely tuning differently!

[@juanborjas6416]

I think it is really interesting that I found the 414 microphone sound by itself the best for the kit.

[@sharper9009]

I play a 4 piece kit with a 12 and a 14 and play classic rock and normal popular music in my cover band. I prefer higher than average normal tunings on my toms, like a C for the 12 and F for the 14. Unfortunately I also usually prefer a mid low to mid tuned snare but this creates massive snare buzz problems caused by the higher tuned 12. Therefore I end up tuning the toms down to around an A & E to minimize that. They still sound great and I tune the bottom heads about a minor third higher than the batter for projection. I would say this tuning is still a fair amount above JAW. If I do crank my snare up high I’ll bring the toms up to where I prefer them. Honestly though for the music we play the lower tuned toms is probably more appropriate. I like the higher pitch on toms for all the things you alluded to though; more projection, better feel, more tone at quieter volumes, etc....

[@FededeDiosDrums]

I'll tell you how i tune my toms because i seem to be going in the opposite way as everyone else and it may sound interesting to somebody: I like my toms to behave like a bass in the sense that you hear a note and not just an attack, i like to play melodically and its just impossible to my ears with a dead dry drum, to me its better if tom 1 is different in pitch than tom 2, floor toms whatever. i like to have sustain in the notes, and you really dont loose any of the attack and it doesnt become a wabble or a blur if you play fast, not at all. After explaining that i'll get into how i tune: mute batter head and focus on reso to begin: loosen everything and start tightening in and tapping on center and also on lugs and i go for the maxium sustain of the head. the longest duration i can get, thats the goal, because thats the natural tone of the drum so its a great place to start. after i've done that on the reso i go to the batter head and do the same, that gets me really close to where i want to be, after that its a bit ot tweaking to see the relationship between the 2 heads, but really you get the reso higher in general because the skin is thinner, you usually then can change the tone of the drum by adjusting the batter head more than the reso (but you will have to readjust the reso after step 2 because it will somehow have lowered itself *not on higher end drums though). to a degree i choose the note of the attack on the reso head and i choose the sustain/note on the batter head, because the bend from higher to lower pitch is what i'm after and the note that the reso is on ends up being the attack, and the note that the batter is on ends up being the tone a note worth mentioning is that when you move one head the other changes a bit as well (not as much with higher end drums). With this kind of tunning the reso head remains tuned for very long periods and you only have to tighten a few screws on the batter from time to time and the tunning remains the same, which is also a very good thing

[@sullysullster8217]

Great topic. Its funny you mentioned Tony Williams and his bottom heads. Out of all the real innovators and masters of drumming, he stands out as the one person who I think didnt have a good drum sound. I was able to see his band in Boston in the early 90's and his toms were and always seamed kind of funky. I remember him doing some patterns between the bass drum and floor toms that sounded like cannons. Probably the most powerful drummer Ive seen. He was kind of short but he had triceps that took up most of his arms and I think the power came from there.Of course amazing drum technique and complete command of the instrument. I just think his toms and snare sounded dull. Ive mentioned a possible review of black dot heads on the whole kit because there seems to be more of a note coming from toms with those heads.Maybe they need to be tuned a particular way to get a good sound Videos of Steve Smith and Carter Mclean have black dot videos and the notes seem to be more prominent and really musical. Maybe more like drum corp quads. Overall i enjoyed this topic and how different tunings can affect projection and tone at a distance.

[@cannon1713]

Can you do a video on big snares? (8x14) and fat tunings. Maybe show how larger snare wire react with bigger drums and what kind of sounds you can get out of specifically brass 8x14 snares. Im interested to hear your take

[@BMdrumz]

Im trying myself to recreate that Tony Williams sound, as i think his drums sound killer! Im using a coated g2 on top and coated g1 on bottom. so far im digging the sound as you get a nice musical big sound, with short sustain.

[@TylerRollins777]

I would in the past tune my batter heads on my toms very high and put many many layers of tape on it to get as much attack as possible. My thinking behind it was to get a good click sound that sounds as close to my bass drum as it can. Since i play double bass every fill i would go around the toms and throw in 2 kicks so it sounded alot more impressive than what it actually is😂. Now i switched to coated heads on my toms and have the reso tuned slightly higher than the batter for that pitch dive... with the exception of my floor tom, i tune that guy as low as i can because i just love that rumble she gives me. I know also keep all my drums without any dampening. Pretty dramatic change if u ask me

[@Aleph_Null_Audio]

If I want a full round sound, I tune my resos a third higher then my batter and the drum a little higher overall than I want (pitch seems lower from farther away). If I need more punch or attack, I'll tune the batters up and the resos a third below. This second strategy results in a similar pitch, but seems to accentuate the attack more.

[@jdion79]

Oh sweet! Think I posted a comment about this very subject a several months ago.

[@buhlir]

great stuff to consider! awesome video, can yo go into more tuning for recording? that would be very cool. to see more stuff on recording.

[@Diesel0807]

This is why the thin shell craze took off and a lot of players didnt realize what they were sacrificing by playing a kit that sounds better to thier ears at the seated position versus what it sounds like 50 feet out in front.. too low in pitch and you loose projection and articulation out front and get lost competing with the bass player..

[@jonathanreddish8590]

for whatever reason i go back to hydraulic heads every once in a while, just to remember that i never liked them... well,, just yesterday i used one as a reso on a floor tom, tuned quite high.... and it totally rocks... hydraulic resos rule... for now anyway...

[@johnrobinson8323]

I play a lot of small rooms, restaurants ect.and many times I don't mike the drums. It seems to me that if you want your toms to project better the top head should be tensioned tighter than the bottom head. When the top head is looser than the bottom head the sound tends to come back towards the drummer and the mics which is great for recording or micing the drums. But acoustically the sound gets trapped on the stage.

[@SoundsLikeADrum]

That will definitely help quite a bit with articulation but you don't necessarily have to go that far if it's not part of your sound. Single-ply batters and minimal muffling will also allow the drums to speak with greater tonal presence at a wider dynamic range. Cheers! -Ben

[@davidsuprenant893]

John Robinson I agree with you.what I found was tunning the batter heads 25 percent tighter than the reso make my drums project to the audience better when in a unlinked situation. A friend of mine was playing one night and I couldn't hear his drums so well.When I questioned his tunning he always pitched his reso heads up higher.He thought he was being heard well because he had the sound in his face.I got him to try my way.His response was his drums were quieter on stage.

[@funkyvas]

Thanksgiving the video! I was wondering how did you set up the C414? Do you attenuate it? Do you use it in cardioid, or Omni? I use that mic as a mono overhead with only a bass drum mic! And I really like it in Omni just as close as possible to my head pointing my right knee! The sound with that setting comes much bolder and punchier specially on toms, I’m using a tuning more on the medium tuning range!

[@SoundsLikeADrum]

Hypercardioid without any frequency attenuation in order to achieve as natural a sound as possible.

[@rapscallion52]

I suppose i'm closer to Tony... though I heard about it as bonzo's way of doing it, tight batter, loose reso, batter for feel, reso for tone, larger sizes if you want to get lower. (So I went 14" rack and 20" floor, because beef). Reso I bring to the point where the tension rods are just barely starting to put pressure on the hoop, and then give it another half turn. Batters up a couple turns from that. Never understood the common practice of having the reso tighter than the batter, tried it because I heard that's what you're "supposed" to do (ugh, worst word ever). Didn't like it. Went back to what I like.

[@joshuacarrico7236]

So you may have covered this at some point, but could you possibly put a video out about worship drumming tuning.

[@SoundsLikeADrum]

Neither of us have any experience in that field but I would imagine, as with all styles and situations, that it depends entirely on the context.

[@theDeathJoy]

If I understand correctly, activating more shell resonance is key to have better unmic'd projection? If so, wouldn't full roundover batter side bearing edge be best for an unmic'd kit?

[@SoundsLikeADrum]

Yes and know. That's one of the keys. You can also project more through attack and articulation. For that a sharper bearing edge is a bit more effective. It's a balancing act for sure!

[@theDeathJoy]

@@SoundsLikeADrum Thanks for the reply! Would in that case a reversed 45° be optimal hypothetically? As a very unorthodox option? Since you'd have a lot of head to shell contact yet a sharp apex.

[@drummerjoey003]

I know this is off topic, but does changing the reso heads matter? (For example the factory reso heads vs new ones.) My 12” Tom andsnare side have been replaced with Evans, the 10” & 16” haven’t been changed.

[@drummerjoey003]

I also found out that maple drums the heads sound better when tuned medium to high. I just can’t get the right tone from the 10” tom. Would you be able to check out my latest drum covers on my channel to maybe give me some advice, I would appreciate it.

[@zbarensounds4415]

Hi there - where can I find details to your mic placement on this episode? (C460B and C414 where are they placed exactly)? Thank you!

[@bexxex]

that one dislike must come from a guitarist.

[@SoundsLikeADrum]

😂

[@drummercarson896]

What is the best position for the room mic for KZbin channel?

[@SoundsLikeADrum]

This is a bit of a trick question even though you might not have intended it. The best position for any microphone is the one that allows you to capture the desired sound. Best bet is to experiment! -Ben

[@Utik0ne]

Kick and snare as a minimal mickin to me always sounded useless, much better kick and a low panoramic, pointed to the snare, even a cheap one .

[@Utik0ne]

Clicked too fast, as always very informative content!

[@irishmuse000]

Thanks guys, great video. Don't know if you've seen Steve Maxwell's tuning video but I'll include a link. He talks about tuning the top head higher on everything in an acoustic environment. His drums always sound amazing using this method. It would've been great to hear the difference using only the room mics with his method of tuning. Thanks again! kzbin.info/www/bejne/gZypaWN6nsx-sM0

[@redpoint6870]

I think the bass drum pedal needs some lubrication

[@SirHiggalot]

Sounds Like a Kick Pedal

[@chrisrobinson8163]

Thick shells = projection

[@Hawiianlion67]

I have no mics

[@SoundsLikeADrum]

No worries- the concepts here are still relevant, especially in getting your drum tones to project at a distance.

[@TheBBQify]

My advice... get used to playing with thick drumsticks!

[@theroman1009]

That sounds like a drum.

[@SoundsLikeADrum]

Indeed!