Southeast Kanto in Pokémon Red and Blue was a Mistake

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What is the point of Pokemon's Southeast Kanto other than to waste my time?
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[@hbudson1248]

On an ordinary playthrough, the level jump up to Koga and Sabrina from Erika feels quite significant, at least in my experience. The developers seemingly expected people to do Koga first, so to help players make up the gap without too much grinding against wild Pokemon, they put 2 paths to Fuchsia and densely populated both with trainers. The idea being that basically, if you reach Fuchsia and aren't leveled highly enough, you can go back through the route you didn't take previously to catch up. I'd say it makes sense! South Eastern Kanto is very annoying in my opinion, but I do honestly think that function it serves is a valid one, even if it could've been designed to be of more substance

[@Tophadoodledoo]

My thoughts are this as well. It was meant to be an EXP haul/battle gauntlet.

[@tortoisecity]

grinding exp is a purpose, definitely, but also agree that yeah it could more interesting

[@RadeticDaniel]

Remembering early development had Viridian as a low level tutorial first gym and Sabrina would be the last leader. Which matches overlaying the game map on Kantoh region of Japan and seeing Saffron as Tokyo.

[@GM_.]

I think i did Saffron Gym last (before Viridian). It's possible, right?

[@RadeticDaniel]

@@GM_. not only it is possible, it's one of the intended ways. If a player couldn't find surf before tutorials and maps were common, odds were they would circle back and eventually find about the drink machine =)

[@TriteHexagon]

I think the devs didn’t see this area as being optional, rather as a choice the player could make if they did not get the bike in Cerulean. Only now with speedruns and such now is it seen as "optional".

[@Faulheit]

to see the glass half full this kinda shows the non linearity of kanto, which i think is its main strength

[@TriteHexagon]

@@Faulheit And I famously dislike Gen 1, but if anything I think this is the one thing it does well.

[@MrZahsome]

@@TriteHexagon I mean... Considering it had nothing to go off of, no shit the other gens are supposed to be better. Might as well tell me gen 4 has better graphics than gen 1 too lmao.

[@tortoisecity]

I think non-linearity is probably the most compelling point people have raised thus far, you do actually get options for how to complete the game, even if that's not how it's played now. Thanks for the comment!

[@marloelefant7500]

South East Kanto is actually as optional as the bike road, you have to traverse one of them to finish the game, but not necessarily both.

[@GameDevMadeEasy]

I would say that SE Kanto is best for training. Especially when you are training a full team of pokemon and not what we do nowadays with single pokemon runs.

[@tortoisecity]

I can accept this as a reason (even if I'd rather grind elsewhere)

[@Scott89878]

@@tortoisecity Where else are you going to grind? Wild pokemon don't give much XP. There's no VS Seeker in gen 1.

[@trapez77]

@@Scott89878he has no responce

[@iSkully99]

Yeah, Erica to Koga and the rest of the game is a big boost in levels. Cycling road is the quicker way but it leaves you underleveled.

[@GameDevMadeEasy]

@@Scott89878 I mean, you can do the grinding earlier in the game, rocket hideout and sylph co. But, that's something that solo runs do moreso than an intended run.

[@gooeygeorge]

i think when analysing the gen 1 games as adults some decisions seem to make no sense when viewing the games 'logically' - ie. some decisions were made primarily with the experience of a kid in mind the example i think of is onix - it's a Really bad pokemon to actually use, but its main purpose is to be an intimidating challenge for kids facing brock. then later on when you find onix in rock tunnel and have the opportunity to use it (and find it's bad), the takeaway is the feeling of having gotten much stronger since fighting brock likewise, i think a main reason for SE kanto being what it is is to give kids the feeling of exploration and discovery, even though both roads ultimately end at fuschia. and then past the experience of actually making it to fuschia, kids on the playground get to talk about how some of them went down a crazy steep hill (exciting!) and others found an entire fence maze and got the super rod (exciting!) (i do think the super rod is a very important reason to at least go a little down route 12 - no pokemon in r/b are exclusive to SE kanto but plenty require the super rod all over the region, again prompting more exploration and discovery) from a more practical perspective, i think packing routes 12-15 with so many trainers was an attempt to address the weird level curve in the mid-late game - they're monotonous but provide loads of exp to both train up your existing team and train up new pokemon to try out, so that ultimately if kids are feeling stuck on a gym there's trainers to fight before they're forced to grind wild encounters they also give out a decent amount of money - if kids want to grind money for vitamins, TMs, game corner etc., they can do it here (on a separate note, in yellow farfetch'd is exclusively found here (routes 12-13 iirc) which gives it more value, which you could take as an acknowledgement that they knew the wild pokemon here sucked ass) i do agree the final product is a long and boring slog to fuschia, but ultimately i think it really adds to the non-linear feel of kanto and overall it has a useful purpose :)

[@tortoisecity]

non-linearity is a valid point to make, and certainly kanto can use something to break it up a bit more, though I feel with the amount of exp on offer here, it would be easy to over-level and ruin the later boss fights given the possibility of a boss rush. Thank you for your thoughtful comment!

[@bvd_vlvd]

Couldn't have phrased it better. Thank you from saving me from typing a worse essay :D

[@logansmith2703]

All this plus the fact that the Bike is easily missable. If the player doesn't have the bike and Cycling road is the only way to progress then it'd be a massive road block.

[@vulcanraven9701]

While Gen 1 had a ton of issues, the leveling curve was not one of them IMO

[@trevorverges]

That point about onix is absolutely genius

[@Br0oham]

I'll be honest, Cycling Road is usually the path I ignore when heading to Fuchsia City, Fly is basically the only reason to go to the West of Celadon City, plus you get cool encounters at the end, more interesting looking routes, and the trainers are a bit more interesting than Koffing, Grimer and Machop. And as a kid I used to remember that being the more interesting way to go because of the battle it was to try to get through the routes without going back to heal. Getting to the end with no PP on some moves, and no PP on some Pokémon entirely, it was like the gauntlet path, but very rewarding for XP

[@TheCanadianBroski]

I'm the opposite, I always go down cycling road first & if I need more levels then I fly to Lavender & then go through the gauntlet of Routes 12-15.

[@tortoisecity]

I can see it both ways, and I certainly don't want anyone to think that I was trying to say cycling road is good, especially since there are much more interesting renditions of it in later games

[@TheDeathmail]

@@tortoisecity Better versions in later games doesn't mean Kanto's sucks... I think both are good and depends on your perspective...

[@princesspikachu3915]

I do a loop usually. The entire map full of defeated trainers. I never miss a single battle.

[@TheCanadianBroski]

@@princesspikachu3915 Same, I maximize the XP I get by defeating ALL of the trainers.

[@maneruloquendero]

I like that it has lots of trainers. It helps me train my newly caught Venonat and Staryu

[@tortoisecity]

staryu is pretty sick!

[@zacknolastname4936]

The practical point (possibly also the intention of developers) is to punish you for failing to complete the optional bike voucher sub quest.

[@tortoisecity]

it's not clear to me that the rational was punishment per se rather reward for getting the bike voucher, but I have nothing to disprove the theory so

[@ConnorMcGregor-ip7zb]

I took this route as a kid due to not getting the bike voucher. It was only after completing the game I was shown how to get the bike by peers.

[@cems.3144]

Make sense for why 2 snorlax exists in the game. It is still good for leveling to do the extra battling

[@ElCanalDelFacu]

To me, the purpose of this area is having a lot of trainers and helping you train your pokémon for the Fuchsia City gym. I always try to fight every trainer in the game in order to get exp, so this area is a good place for that.

[@shorewall]

Yeah, that is my rule, fight every trainer. I try not to grind in the long grass.

[@ElCanalDelFacu]

@@shorewall Yeah. I don't like grinding in the tall grass either. At least with trainers I feel I'm accomplishing something as you can fight them only once, while wild pokémon are infinite.

[@tortoisecity]

fighting trainers is definitely better than encounters, and this area does have a lot of trainers

[@GenX6887]

Both Fuchsia and Saffron Gyms in this case. I like how Let's Go gave you a reason to go to Fuchsia first and then back to Saffron later. Something the original games failed to do.

[@RadeticDaniel]

​@@GenX6887the first games had enough reason that people got stuck out of saffron not knowing how to get in 😅 Bulbapedia wasn't a thing in 1999 when it hit western markets and home internet wasn't even the norm in 1996 when it released in Japan.

[@linuxman7777]

It is a pretty good representation of what that part of Chiba prefecture is like in real life. It really isn't interesting in the slightest.

[@dee7352]

I wish the video shed some light on its real world counterpart, bc that context seems interesting in a “translating geography to 2D plane” way

[@nilsteegen33]

That just means you've never been to Chiba. It's a beautiful region. Of course, it's hard to compare it to Tokyo, but calling it uninteresting just shows a lack of knowledge

[@linuxman7777]

@@nilsteegen33 I have, most of it is very very flat. Compared to almost all other prefectures I have been to 17 of them, Chiba was geographically the least interesting. It has good aspects like Soy Sauce Factories, Beaches, and Narita Airport. But besides that, much of the Prefecture is Suburbs and Farmland

[@FollowMe4REP]

@@linuxman7777No Farmland No Foodland

[@tortoisecity]

@dee7352 that would be super interesting, and I'd be kind of surprised if someone hadn't done that already in some form

[@thisguy9943]

My first thought is that, for many, this area was likely required to progress, as they never bothered learning how to get the bike, at least their first time. And I think when viewed as "a path that can be avoided with knowledge of the game" instead of "optional" it takes a new role. This is the Gauntlet of the game. This is the only real point on the game where i can see myself whiting out. Not because it forces you to do it all at ince, but because backtracking it takes so long. Runming out of PP on your typical moves is not only possible but probable. Your pokemon getting chipped at slowly across the routes makes you ask "did I make sure to bring healing? I dont want to walk all the way back, I'm so close, maybe i can just scrape by with whats left." This area is a slog, and thats really its best trait. It is a type of area that the game severely lacks, outside of maybe Victory Road itself, and maybe Viridian if your Poison Sting luck is bad like mine. It is the only part in the game where backtracking to the Pokemon Center is at its most punishing, and where the game pushes you to do it the hardest. Its the prep check, the gauntlet, the struggle bus, whatever you want to call it. It is where you are forced to push your limits, even if its in a rather mundane setting.

[@tortoisecity]

this is a fair point, though if you picked up fly (which is also optional) then it would not be so tough since you can just fly away. But certainly it is toiling, no denying that.

[@MachuThePichu]

@@tortoisecity you can fly away to vermillion or lavender town, but you still gotta walk all the way to the "snorlax sleep spot", then down past the boardwalks, past the fence maze and finally the last stretch with the ledge at the top, and every time you fly to safety the walk back will be slightly longer. not to mention that fly is optional and some people might have missed it, like the bike which is required to take the other path

[@hiei49]

Silph co is also a massive gaublet if You dont find the medic quickly enough, and it's easy to get lost

[@weirdboo]

@@tortoisecity saying fly is an "option" is weird though, it's way more of a secret since it's tucked away in a hidden location. I doubt many casual players stumble upon it, similar to the bike. The devs fully anticipated many players only walking/surfing their way through the game using teleport (if they caught/bought an abra)/dig/escape ropes.

[@rynobehnke8289]

@@weirdboo Fly being HM2 will at least tip you off to its existence ones you got surfe(3), strength (4) and flash(5) along side obviously Cut(1). If Fly would be 5 and flash was 2 would it be far easier to miss.

[@ellebresych5282]

It was inspired by the least populated part of real life kanto in Japan, Chiba!

[@tortoisecity]

that's interesting! thank you for sharing

[@heavylobster4339]

I like the area because it feels like the middle of nowhere, like you're out exploring the ends of the Earth.

[@nicolaslimapeixoto3212]

I feel the same.

[@tortoisecity]

totally fair!

[@caliburnleaf9323]

I think one thing worth consideration here is that the seafoam islands were most likely not *intended* to be an optional area, but rather part of the critical path. It's natural to expect the player to explore the ocean to the south of fuschia immediately after getting surf. After all, the ocean is *right there* in front of them. As such, they put a lot of effort into the seafoam islands, as this is where most players would end up going. Southeast kanto is a bit different, however. The critical path involves the player returning to cerulean after vermillion, where the player is expected to pick up the bike, which will later let them on cycling road. After traveling through lavender to celadon and then back to lavender, you're finally given the choice between taking cycling road and southeast kanto to get to fuschia. The question is, which snorlax did they find? Did the player check south of lavender when they got there? Did they check west of celadon? Which snorlax they know about will influence which way they go from here. Either of these could be the critical path, and there isn't a cut and dry answer. It's even possible that the player missed the bike, making SE kanto the only option. Since any given player could easily miss either cycling road *or* southeast kanto, it's natural then that *neither* should have anything you wouldn't want to miss. This is why you can find ditto both to the east *and* west of fuschia. Having a lot of trainers on these routes is likely intended as a catchup mechanic for players who are behind the level curve, giving players a natural way to level their pokemon without having to grind on wild encounters. It's worth noting that having to fight so many trainers en route to fuschia is in itself an experience, and is an exercise in rationing resources (HP, PP, items, etc). Limping into fuschia with your beat-up party is certainly a memorable experience, and I think having a skippable area that is all about endurance does in fact add something of interest to the game. Experiencing it once is probably enough for most players, but they can ignore it on repeat playthroughs once they know about cycling road, and use it as an exp bank if they need it later.

[@tortoisecity]

these are fair points, though I'm not super sure what you mean about seafoam being not intended as an optional area, even if that is how it worked out? the main reason I mentioned seafoam is because it has everything that I wished southeast kanto has, and at a slightly later point in the game. Thank you for your comment!

[@caliburnleaf9323]

@@tortoisecity The path that makes seafoam islands optional essentially has you going through the backdoor. If you look at the map layout, there's a clear progression from fuschia to cinnabar through seafoam islands, then back to viridian through the route north of cinnabar. Flying to pallet to access this route early bypasses the intended progression. It's like using the bomb jump to get an item early in a metroid game. It's possible, but it probably wasn't how the designers expected you to do it.

[@tortoisecity]

right gotcha, that makes sense, thank you for explaining!

[@shadeblackwolf1508]

@@caliburnleaf9323 Tagging on here to mention that while i elaborate elsewhere in a big comment, i think fly was a late game addition, which connects well with the idea that seafoam wasn't always optional

[@Jotari]

@@shadeblackwolf1508 Strange that they'd call it HM02 then.

[@YukeWeiss]

Others have pointed out that you need the bike to get to Cycling Road which is not always a given. We forget after nearly 30 years and decades of folks mining this game to its very core, that when most of us were playing as a kid this might be the only way to get to Fuschia. I take the point it might be worth putting something here that can only be got here, but I can see why it was put there.

[@canis_lupus2220]

Exactly, I am watching my kids (9 and 6 yo) on parallel Gen1 runs. One of them almost missed the bike voucher and I was already excited to have both run go in totally different directions. My older daughter did tell her little bro where she found it but due to her slightly worse orientation skill, she almost didn't find the house again. 🙂

[@tortoisecity]

that's really cute, and it's fair to build in some safeguards for it to be more variable, just wish they made it a bit more interesting

[@ShizuruNakatsu]

I never seen this area as optional. It was always the way I went, because it was the most instinctual/intuitive. I didn't have to be "motivated" to go there, or "go out of my way" to go there. It's just the natural path to take. We don't all think like speedrunners when playing games, looking for "optimal routes" or ways to cut out parts of the games we're playing. I've never even thought of this area as optional until seeing this video.

[@ShizuruNakatsu]

I also see Cycling Road as optional, and usually never actually need it. I don't see it as the actual route, but as an optional area with some trainers to fight. "South East Kanto" isn't a place where I care what is or isn't there, it's just the way to go. If it was removed, the game would be forcing you to do everything in a linear way, and if you didn't know how to do it that way, you would just get stuck.

[@tortoisecity]

Non-linearity is a good thing for the game to offer, and cycling road certainly doesn't offer much better, but I wasn't really looking at this from the perspective of speedrunning; if I was, it wouldn't even feature. It's about what a casual player looking to explore the map would find here on their quest, and in my view there isn't enough here to justify visiting if someone does go down cycling road to get to fuschia and comes back here later

[@Scott89878]

You to go southeast Kanto to level up your team. You only have a finite amount of trainers to level up on.

[@wihatmi5510]

I have always found the bike lane to be the optional route. I have always found this routes to be the highlight of the game because the game reaches its peak here, because of the many water Pokemon and fishing opportunities and the atmosphere that reaches its peak here and in Lavender Town.

[@tortoisecity]

Fair enough! Lavender town is pretty good

[@Thyderion]

When I was a kid it always was the next logical place to go after getting the poke flute. Also, even though I always had the bike, the "gravity" aspect of cycling road, the having to constantly hold a button or lose control was unpleasant.

[@tortoisecity]

Yeah I wouldn't anyone to think I'm arguing in favour of cycling road here, it's not very good either

[@vegetashairline3060]

I like having it. It may seem pointless, but sometimes in a journey you go off the beaten path and thats okay.

[@tortoisecity]

totally fair

[@grateoraclelewot6326]

Remember, this is the same generation that had one family of ghosts, one family of dragons, and no real moves of either type, among many other balancing issues. My guess is they made the maps and thought they were good enough, and never quite did a retrospective to consider whether the area offered something unique. Wild encounters may have changed all the time during development, or may have had defaults that were only updated when it struck their fancy. They never knew just how much every pixel would be analyzed so many years later.

[@tortoisecity]

I mean I get that they were essentially making this on the fly, and have relatively few pokes to work with in terms of typing, but some fire types or rocks types or something else to fight on the trainers would not go amiss

[@WorldsGr8est12]

Its a training area and a route you can take if you weren't adventurous enough to find the bike voucher. You can easily miss the bike voucher on your first playthrough.

[@tortoisecity]

this is very true

[@dozzy9984]

Tbh. I always thought that was supposed to be the main path. You do your buisness in Celadon, return to Lavender to clear Pokemon Tower, get flute then head south. Especially because bike technically is optional, so you potentially could not be able to get on cycling road and you had to find another way.

[@tortoisecity]

I can see that

[@VersusThem]

It was one of the few stretches of the game that felt somewhat challenging, even if only due to the pp management, the bicycle path was too easy, to me these routes were like an endurance test and going back to heal midway was the equivalent to making two trips instead of carrying all the bags at once, a sacrilege

[@tortoisecity]

You either go the whole way or don't come back

[@morgastic23]

As a kid this area was definitely not optional! I had no idea how to get the bike besides "save up a million dollars" not knowing that goal was out of reach. For me it was a grueling gauntlet, with an amazing reward of Fuschia City, the Super Rod, and Safari Zone. I like it more if just for the fact it juxtaposes with those and makes the reward seem more grand

[@tortoisecity]

Fair enough! It definitely is a gauntlet, I just wish the trainers had more interesting Pokemon to fight

[@morgastic23]

@tortoisecity as an adult I couldn't agree more!

[@kentmichaelgalang686]

ditto in the mansion basement is more for lore purposes to me, ditto in the grass is the main availability

[@tortoisecity]

Right but ditto is in the grass on the way to victory road as well

[@Shifty_Pickle]

I think this area is just a backup area, so if a kid didn't find the bike they could still continue the game.

[@yokaipinata1416]

This. We tend to miss this point because everyone knows how to get the bike nowadays, but back when the game dropped, in an age before online databases/walkthroughs as we know them, the odds of someone never getting the bike were decent. Honestly, everyone knowing where to get the bike is kinda similar to everyone knowing who the last gym leader is or who the game's final boss is. Odds are both of those reveals surprised people back in the day, even if today it's just like "yeah, he's the last gym leader". ❤

[@WaterKirby1994]

Everyone remembers going into the Bikeshop & learning they are severely overpriced at 1 Million Yen. The real thing you had to find was the voucher to redeem for the Bicycle & someday I want to learn the inspiration for that. Was there an actual bikeshop from Tajiri-san's childhood that had expensive merchandise?

[@AdeptArcanist]

Am I the only one who just likes southeast kanto for its own sake? The boardwalks over the sea are the prettiest part of Kanto, and the fence maze is cute and memorable! Honestly, I feel like it’s one of the most interesting and iconic locations in Kanto and one of the few that pushes past the feeling that it’s just a generic template for the future regions.

[@tortoisecity]

Glad to hear it! Visuals are pretty subjective anyway so totally fair to just enjoy it because you like how it looks :)

[@Gilbert_Dice_Gottfried]

I think the genius of gen 1 Pokémon games was in the realistic and mundane vibe of the games. Early kanto was supposed to represent the banality of everyday life. I heard a KZbinr describe the feeling of gen 1 games as “claustrophobic.” Kanto just looks like an ordinary everyday city based area you’d see just walking around outside. Most of the trainers are just normal people you’d see every day and the only interesting areas are deep dungeons you’d have to explore very hard to find. These two routes (26 & 27 I think) are like areas you’d see just walking around outside. They have very weak trainers that are basically just normal people with Pokémon. Last time I played it I found myself wishing they were at least 10 levels ahead because it became mindless grinding after a while. The fishermen with 6 magikarp is just a big middle finger to whoever’s playing and it’s actually kinda funny. The routes suck to grind through but I appreciate that a series like Pokémon actually tried to represent so much realism into an adventure series. Johto and hoenn are so imaginative compared to kanto, so kanto was really just a stepping stone creatively for the later gens. The realistic and grounded vibe of kanto really shows that Pokémon didn’t expect to ever get big. At that time they just wanted to make a game that took place in our world where everyday people collected small monsters they could battle with. It’s a very small concept compared to what Pokémon would later become.

[@tortoisecity]

I get what you're saying about realism and real life compared to the very sci-fi-esque creatures you catch battle and trade, but I think beyond that Kanto could be a little more imaginative, even if later games maybe go a bit further than necessary in that direction

[@PokeCastle]

It's simple really, most of Kanto and especially Johto are geographically accurate to real world japanese locations and major routes to lead to them. It could be that there's an actual long alternative path to get to the city so they made this path. After all, gen 1's target audience were Japanese kids.

[@tortoisecity]

It's a fair comment, but also that doesn't mean they can't add different Pokemon to battles or wild encounters

[@kaph123]

For me it is a combination of reasons why I like SE Kanto more than you probably do. First, as many stated, it helps to train your full team of six up to the level of Koga and Sabrina. Then, I really like the "fake" non-linearity by having two ways of reaching Fuchsia. Furthermore, it brings more diversity to your travel through the region because you don't have to take the same way back to central Kanto after traveling to Fuchsia but you can go another way, where you still can find trainers to battle (yes, you can fly by that point of the game but a full play through is about exploring).

[@tortoisecity]

Definitely agree that exploring is great and should be incentivised, ideally these routes would just have more interesting trainer Pokemon to fight and some unique wild encounters

[@kaph123]

@@tortoisecity I second that! Thanks for the cool video :)

[@CordyMcDonald]

South east Kanto is such a slog. There’s way too many trainers and nothing cool to find

[@DiosBabilonia]

It makes the game feel more like a world instead of a series of corridors.

[@LiliGasanj]

i agree with the lack of unique pokemon issue (but to be fair gen 1 has a good chunk of those) Route 12 is easily the most aesthetic part of kanto though (and if we're only talking about gen 1 specifically, maybe even the only aesthetic part of kanto), and housing like a quarter of the game's trainers makes for good EXP and money grinding considering the level curve of Post-Erika, Post-Giovanni, and the fact that young kids aren't going to know the inner machinations of the code, accuracies, base powers, etc. giving them the extra EXP to help counterbalance their lack of knowledge more importantly though, the longer trek also serves as either an alternate route to delinearize and add to subsequent playthroughs, or the ability to skip it as a reward for figuring out how to find the bike, which plenty of first time players could easily miss (we don't miss the bike because we're not 10 anymore, not because the game forces it on you; when i babysat my gf's 10 year old niece last month and we played Let's Go Eevee together, the first time i saw her save file she was at Celadon but missed Lt. Surge's gym; it's definitely not a crazy idea to assume that a lot of kids missed the bike their first time)

[@tortoisecity]

missing the bike and fly are very viable, case in point I missed fly when I first played crystal, and after beating the E4, I walked from new bark to olivine because I did not know it existed

[@silveramyknux241]

Tbh, when I play old Pokémon games, I make sure to fight every trainer so I’m not under level by the time I reach the league. Somehow I have gotten to that point many times and it’s annoying.

[@intelpntium]

Trite is correct. The bike is a side quest, an entirely optional side quest at that. There is no point in the game where you need the Bike to travel from point A to point B. Additionally, in order to get the Bike you need to: A) Find where the Bike store is and realize its impossible to purchase B) Find the Pokemon Fan building in Vermilion C) Chat with a specific NPC to get the Bike Voucher D) Head all the way back to the Bike Store and finish the quest. It is entirely possible for a player to skip that side quest and go straight to Lavender Town. This means their only available path is that Route. Additionally, I am willing to bet the higher number of trainers is to make sure such a player is ready for Koga's gym. If a player skips the bike, then it's reasonable to assume they haven't been exploring that much. And if the player isn't exploring, then their team might be lower leveled. It could be the devs put that route there as a way to allow such a player to catch up to a point where they can reliably fight Koga.

[@tortoisecity]

EXP is the only thing you would really materially take away, given the lack anything else. but these are all good points, thank you for sharing!

[@Laezar1]

Actually a really good point on the path forcing a trainer that doesn't explore through a gauntlet to make sure they get enough exp, never thought about that but it makes sense.

[@Rooksftw]

I actually like the little maze, it was really good at motivating childhood me to get that item that was onscreen but just out of reach. It made the area feel bigger than it was

[@EliteTrainerKenway]

Oh, so THATS why my mom named me 'Southeast Kanto in Pokemon Red and Blue'

[@mrdogich5655]

I always liked this part of the map. I spent most of my postgame walking around that area. The fact, that I didn't have to be there made that place so calming

[@waleedkhalid7486]

It’s funny, I always take this route to get to Fuschia. I know cycling road exists, but I often forgo the bike and prefer to go down the coast. I actually like the design of the area- it’s more peaceful and leisurely compared to the rush of cycling road.

[@tortoisecity]

cycling road certainly is more of a rush!

[@clemdelaclem]

South-East Kanto in the Gold/Silver post-game is the worst part of any Pokémon game, the level curve makes the number of trainers even worse than Gen1

[@tortoisecity]

there are plenty of people in here defending SE Kanto in gen one and it's great that they are doing that, if I see anyone defending SE kanto in GSE I'm going to be flabbergasted, GSE Kanto is in general awful

[@smob0]

You don't want to fight a guy with 6 lv 23 pikachu after you already beat the elite 4? 😂

[@nc5958]

@@smob0 He provides good experience points for a Houndoom still catching up to my team. Not everyone will have a full team of six before the Elite Four in GSC. Many trainers in GSC were weaker than they should be but I like the full team of Level 23 Pikachu trainer in Route 13.

[@zacknolastname4936]

​​@@tortoisecity GSC are fundamentally different from later Pokémon games in very stark ways that aren't appreciated in an age of challenge runs. Game Freak was (and frankly still is - despite all of the handholding) extremely bad at explaining their more complex mechanics and intentions. The terrible level curve in GSC Kanto is suitable for grinding out a mostly new team after the league - especially because some Pokémon (like Houndour and Murkrow) are caught at lower levels and inaccessible in the early portion of your journey. GSC had a lot of systems that tried to nudge you into more experimentation with your team setup than gens 3-5. It's why the day/night, day of the week, and poketch/telephone systems were set up the way that they were and a reason for the wonky level curve. Basically, Game Freak was trying to create the replayability of an MMO and leaned heavily into their roots of wanting to make a more traditional old style jrpg. Since Pokémon has a recognized shape and identity now compared to in Gen 2, this no longer flies.

[@bosspoke]

​​@@tortoisecity Going through kanto after elite 4 is basically just to speedrun the 8 gyms before finally facing red, the real challenge. You can easily skip most of kanto trainers and only do the gyms. Red is possible to beat with a full team of around lvl 49-50 pokemon. And possibly he can be beat with pokemon levels 45-50 also. The main challenges when fighting Red is blastoise and Snorlax, since there's few counters for them. The only counter to blastoise I can think of is lanturn. And you might defeat Snorlax easily with a ghost pokemon.

[@grantake]

I always saw SE Kanto as the default route, and cycling road was the cool shortcut you get for finding the bike voucher. My first play through, when I was really little, I didn’t find the bike, so I was stuck taking the long way around. It’s easy to forget that missing the bike was probably very common back in the late 90’s before walkthroughs were so ubiquitous.

[@tortoisecity]

Definitely fair to miss the bike, especially if you saw the ridiculous price tag

[@gimok2k5]

Primary purpose of those routes: To allow players to complete the game without the bike. If you don't have the bike, you can't go through cycling road, and in Gen 1, it's surprisingly easy to miss the bike voucher. Secondary purpose: Shortcut between Lavender and Vermillion, especially if a player didn't get around to buying a drink for the guards around Saffron yet (which can be something that can be accidentally delayed, either by missing it at first, or in Gen 1 being too broke to buy a drink) Tertiary purpose: Having an excuse to have the Super Rod somewhere. Even if it's placed in such a way that you might get it BEFORE the Good Rod. So, yes, it has a purpose, even if it's not the most exciting place to be.

[@mhammer9223]

I always used it to finish grinding for the Elite Four or to play level catchup for gift pokemon like the fossils or Lapras.

[@ApplesGhost]

Remember that Snorlax walls you off if you try to go south immediately. I think they assume you go south, fight some trainers, get blocked off, and then turn around and go the intended way, only to remember that Snorlax that was in your way and go back to catch it. Then you go back to Vermilion. Then you go south and there's a big level jump. You can either push south hard or you can turn around north again. If you keep going south you see trees to cut. If you put away your HM slave, which kids would often do, you have to turn around and get your HM slave or teach cut to another pokemon or catch another pokemon to teach cut again. Anyway, my point is that a kid wouldn't actually do the whole thing in one sitting, since they wouldn't inherently know the layout of the game yet. For a kid it's like a big wall they scale one step at a time, and feels like several areas at once because of it.

[@tortoisecity]

Fair enough, and kids may or not may not complete it in multiple sittings (I played red nonstop the first time, but only over the course of an entire weekend which was probably not typical)

[@Metagross31]

I have to say I really love this area and already did so as a kid. It feels very unique with so little tall grass, one is close to the edge of the map, like one it at the furthest part of it and it lets you wonder what lies beyond to the south east. Another thing which makes it really fit into Gen1 in my eyes is the concept of mundanity. In many modern games you constantly have to save the world, every piece of land, every NPC, every enemy and every line of dialogue serve a purpose and you are the hero who has to save the world and everything is centered around you. In Gen 1 Pokémon, there are a lot of NPCs just going on with their daily lives. You could remove them and the story and gameplay wouldn't change, but the worldbuilding and immersion does. This area fits right into that feeling. There are some Bird Catchers in a fence-maze, who do not care about being the champion or what Team Rocket is up to. There are no game-changing items to be found here. There is no Legendary Pokémon hiding somewhere in the depths of the water. It is just a part of the world which you can visit and traverse through.

[@tortoisecity]

That's fair enough, but even in that context they could have some more interesting or varied Pokemon to fight

[@smob0]

I feel like pokemon fan club was going to be in fushia at some point, but they moved it so you had the bike earlier.

[@urinstein1864]

That's a great theory. I was gonna say, SE Kanto may very well be there very simply to contrast the convenience of the bike path, but it obviously fails at that, for most people would indeed have the bike anyway and you also get Fly before you make it to Fuchsia, so no need to every rewalk either path.

[@tortoisecity]

it'd be really cool if the fan club was there, or you could have the day care there or something

[@Shenron67]

I love this part, it really feels like an adventure, leaving the town, walking a path with a lot of other trainer. Cycling road feels like using the highway: faster but boring as hell.

[@tortoisecity]

Can't argue with that description of cycling road

[@WGoNerd]

It feels like there's a missing coastal town.

[@thegeneral19]

You have to factor in that I was 8 years old when I got this game for Christmas. Every area was an amazing experience of getting lost and smashed by trainers because alot of the games vocabulary was beyond an 8 year olds brain. I remember asking my mom what abandonded meant because i would always delete my moves on accident.

[@christiancinnabars1402]

I feel like SE Kanto being interpreted as a "gauntlet" could have been pushed more to make it a lot more interesting. The simple change of having every trainer in Routes 13 - 15 be reset every time the player leaves the stretch of routes (and _maybe_ Route 12 could be included, but a decent portion of that route is accessible before the Poke Flute) would add a lot in not only making the routes a good training area, but also making it so if the player does not obtain the bike, they would have to run the gauntlet in one go else reset their progress. The main thing that I think is missing from most Pokemon games that would add a lot of value to items is having a gauntlet/endurance section be a mandatory path. The only time the main series games come close is in the Pokemon League - a well known difficulty spike due to locking the player out of PokeCenter access for five difficult battles. But by that point, the player already has access to Full Restore and Revive spam, making item management trivial apart from making sure to stack a double digit number of the aforementioned items. These routes would have been the perfect place to force players out from the safety of the PokeCenter walk, and really test their item management. Or at least, they would be if Cycling Road weren't an option. But hey, giving the players the choice between easy and hard mode wouldn't hurt. As for cool Pokemon encounters, Tangela could have been exclusive to the Cut-locked patches of grass on Routes 12 and 13 instead of only being found all the way on Route 21 south of Pallet Town (basically end-game and tucked away in a corner) or the Safari Zone in Yellow, Lickitung could have potentially been found in the grass around Routes 14 and 15 instead of being locked behind trading for _Golduck/Slowbro_ or being found in the Safari Zone in Yellow, and Exeggcute could have also been placed within these routes as an alternative to Oddish instead of being... found in the Safari Zone. Farfetch'd is another option to include into the routes, but I actually feel like this would be too late into the game to add it in; though it seems Pokemon Yellow disagrees. Routes 12, 13, and 14 being coastal routes could have also served as a reason to add Krabby, Slowpoke, and Psyduck as grass patch encounters. While the player would have already gotten the Super Rod by this point and thus could already catch them, it would at least spice up the grass encounter pool from the usual Pidgey, Oddish, Bellsprout encounters seen since Nugget Bridge.

[@tortoisecity]

Totally agree with your points about having a genuine gauntlet and the possible encounters you could add - thanks for the comment!

[@tomite472123]

I think south east Kanto is intended to feel like a long rural stretch of Japan or the countryside in general, its design certainly gave me those vibes when i was younger and as a kid who spent a lot time also traveling those rodes with my parents I gained an appreciation of the area. I saw someone else mention that its an optional route for people who dont have the bike and while thats also probably true I think its meant to be a representation of the countryside with the bike path being a representation of the convenience of cities.

[@tortoisecity]

That's a cool angle to think about, thank you for sharing

[@weelzneal4768]

I always saw that area as extra training. Sometimes id keep that area untouched so if i wanted a different pokemon i could just train there, great for your newly caught safari zone catches

[@Dj14e]

You kinda covered it in that it’s all about EXP… Non-E4 trainer battles are an extremely finite resource, so getting your Pokemon from, say, levels 30-50 in the mid-game is hugely important.

[@sanninjiraiya]

It provides lots of experience points, lets you advance if you missed the bike, and it gives you a chance to toy with the fishing mechanics and hints at surf existing

[@tortoisecity]

It definitely has a lot of exp

[@fafnirable1]

It's literally there because of having a choice at which path you travel to get through Kanto, it's why multiple paths connect on the map. I always found cycling road boring and have gone multiple playthroughs without even going there. I personally found that path more pleasing than an empty downward path

[@tortoisecity]

fair enough! I'm glad that we have the option to choose, since different folks will prefer different things

[@CyberchaoX]

I feel like Southeast Kanto was meant to be the "intended" path to Fuchsia City, hence the lower route numbers compared with Cycling Road. You said it was Routes 12-15, but what you actually circled was Routes _11-15,_ and that one extra route makes all the difference. Route 11 is east of Vermillion City, and seeing as how you first entered Vermillion City via Route 6, it's only natural to want to exit via a different route. You grab the third badge, head east, maybe grab the Itemfinder from Professor Oak's aide if you have enough Pokémon registered in your Pokédex, and step out the other side of the gatehouse onto Route 12...and immediately hit a roadblock, the sleeping Snorlax. So you have to backtrack to Cerulean and loop around to Lavender Town that way. Many people remark that the Lavender Tower rival battle is weirdly easy, but you look at the levels and you realize that the developers expected that a first-time player wouldn't go straight to Celadon. They'd climb the tower, run into the rival, and try to continue up the tower and get stopped by the ghosts. Again, it's leaving a hook, something you'll have to go back to. So you finally get to Celadon, and it seems like you're getting all the answers. You can finally get into Saffron City, and you've found the Silph Scope to allow you to solve the troubles at Lavender Tower. Sure, there's a _chance_ that you tried to leave Celadon via the western exit and found the second Snorlax, and then cut the bush and found the HM for Fly. But there's also a chance that you didn't, because the allure of the lingering plot hooks drew you back towards Lavender Town. And what do you get in Lavender Town? The Poké Flute. And conveniently, Route 12 is just to the south, no need to use that Fly HM that you may or may not have found.

[@tortoisecity]

many a people have pointed out the non-linearity this offers, and I think your comment is a nice supplement to that, so thank you!

[@jommysalami227]

I think we have to consider how without the 30 years of experience with these games, when these games came out, the bike was relatively pretty hidden and pretty easy to miss

[@tortoisecity]

Bike definitely can be missed, as can many items in Pokemon generally (I missed fly in gen 2 when I first played)

[@AlexT0210]

Nothing is worse than Southeast Hoenn.

[@tortoisecity]

Southeast Hoenn is just so vast

[@Bretkane]

I love the exploration feeling of not knowing where to go next, however the execution was not perfect

[@tortoisecity]

me too! and I would note that aside from GSC, this area was improved on in later gens

[@bakes1324]

There should’ve been an area down there for moltres instead of leaving it in victory road which is kind of boring

[@tortoisecity]

that could have been neat!

[@GM_.]

Too early. Maybe if there was a place here you can only Access later, like a hot dungeon (Pokemon Anil fangame has Moltres in a Cinnabar Cave).

[@bakes1324]

@@GM_. could’ve used hms to lock its dungeon off

[@darthmadeus]

Having Nidoking's health in the red the entire time was anxiety inducing. WTF

[@tortoisecity]

He's at absolutely no risk of dying to these fights

[@shadedusk7831]

It's a good area to earn a lot of money. This game doesn't let you battle again anyone, so there's a fixed amount of money to be made from battle. By adding this area they increased the battle money available in game.

[@randomRyze]

Slightly off-topic, but damn, you went out strong with that crit-para Thunderbolt clip

[@TyM783]

Honestly loved that area tbh. I just found the simplicity in that area relaxing from the bustling parts of Kanto

[@tortoisecity]

fair enough! glad to hear that someone did enjoy it :)

[@TheDeathmail]

It offers several advantages 1st, as you mentioned, some new Pokemon. Sure, they can be found at other places, but this means you can enjoy traveling around while trying to fill the dex rather than staying in one place 2nd, a chance to train and battle and earn more money 3rd, alternative routes for traveling and going around Kanto. Take it away and you have many less methods to go around and it makes Kanto much more linear. If it's too unique, then it kinda makes it feel more necessary. 4th, it makes Kanto feel more full 5th, it's just nice to explore and travel around with the items and battles being a nice bonus Personally, I think it's a great addition. Like, could they improve it??? Yes, 100%. I feel that many limitations are due to how crunched Gamefreak was when making these games.... Like maybe adding a few unique Pokemon. But overall, I think it's actually find and for me personally, having more to explore and having alternative routes was actually a great option..... I honestly don't think this is filler. This is literally an alternate route. It helps make each journey and adventure unique and different than your friend's play through. You are probably judging the route after watching tons of speedruns and no longer having the heart of enjoying and traveling around the region. Remember, these games probably weren't meant to be played THIS much... so it kinda messes with your perspective.

[@tortoisecity]

It's fair to enjoy it and like battling the trainers and exploring the area generally, but I wouldn't suggest that my view on this area is because of watching speedruns, first Kanto games I played were frlg and even in those games as a kid I found this area super tedious, which was quite a standout for me because I think those games are super fun

[@GM_.]

​The Pokémon Anil fangame actually places a rural-looking Town here.

[@tortoisecity]

GM_. That's super cool!

[@RaisedThird]

To answer your question though, south east Kanto is a punishment route to Fushia, which is seen in JRPGs is a lot. That’s why there are a lot of trainers constantly stopping you on your way, and why it’s a maze compared to the linear bike road. Imagine yourself playing this for the first time in 1998 and being stopped at the west of Celadon because you don’t have a bike. Since you’re a kid, you didn’t bother pressing A on every single NPC (because come on that’s boring!) so you missed the bike voucher. There is also no easily accessible Internet guide for you to figure out how to get the bike so now your punishment is to go through south east Kanto, which takes significantly longer than the bike road.

[@tortoisecity]

I can accept this because you're not like some other people who are arguing that Pokemon isn't an RPG

[@Staplegun]

3:31 Today I learned Red and Blue had EXP All.

[@tortoisecity]

Really easy to miss it, especially if you skip se Kanto!

[@ninjabunny9526]

That was always my favorite part of kanto as a kid bc defeating all the trainers was really fun for me. Also, i just liked all the fences for some reason, lul. I just thought they looked cool for some reason.

[@tortoisecity]

totally fair! I'm glad to hear some people enjoy it :)

[@LiveGame555]

It's an alternative path to Fuchsia City. TBH, given the original design of the region, it would seem that Cycling Road was probably added after Southeastern Kanto. One theme they also intended within the game was that Kanto is changing and developing and modernizing. Natural areas are being overtaken by city and industry. This mirrors the devs' experience with the intense growth of Tokyo during their childhoods. Southeastern Kanto is the slower, more natural counterpart to the modern and intense Cycling Road. There's a reason both are blocked off by Snorlax.

[@tortoisecity]

This is a nice thematic explanation, thank you!

[@TheCanadianBroski]

SE Kanto has a purpose: XP, without all those trainers, it'd make getting to a high enough level for Blaine, Giovanni, Elite 4 & Champion (& even the Legendary Birds) that much more tedious as you get more XP from defeating the Pokémon if it's a Trainer's Pokémon rather than finding it in the wild, as well as in Yellow you can find wild Farfetch'd on Route 12.

[@tortoisecity]

I think the changes they made in yellow and later gens are some validation that the area needed a bit more to feel complete, but that is my own bias there. Thanks for the comment!

[@AislingNightmare]

As others have said before, it’s the way to get to Fuchsia if you don’t have the bike. I have come to really appreciate this route during randomizers for that reason.

[@tortoisecity]

Randomizers would solve 99% of my complaints in this area, since they add so much variety to trainers and wilds

[@dannigro8794]

It seems like they could’ve fit in another town and they had to figure out how they were going to get from where lavender town was or east of Vermilion city to Fuschia besides cycling road. I don’t think it was a mistake. I think it was good to put in all those trainers, but I guess they could’ve added a few more rare Pokémon if they didn’t have the safari zone.

[@tortoisecity]

yeah something like fallarbor or celestic would be great, just lil out of the way settlement with a couple houses or something

[@joshtaylor9884]

Southeast Kanto is that part of the game that makes me think to myself "Not this part."

[@tortoisecity]

every game has it; in generation two it's the rocket segment

[@DiiTerryberry]

I don't know I just always saw this as "the right way to go" as you loop back around to Pallet Town to fight Giovanni then go to the league. I'd go so far as to say this was intentional :)

[@ianweir3608]

This was always my favorite part of Kanto. I think your main problem is that you seek to avoid trainer battles. There are no trainer rematches in generation 1, so for training purposes, you have to make as much of every trainer battle as possible. _thats_ why i love this area: its a giant exp dump. You can level your pokemon TONS by battling all those trainers. Also, you forgot the *Super Rod*, which is in this area.

[@tortoisecity]

I noted the super rod visually at 3:30, but you're right I didn't talk about it all that much. It's not so much that I'm trying to avoid battles, more that the battles would be more interesting/have more value for dex completion if they used a greater variety of Pokemon, instead of a team of 4 pidgeys or koffings

[@FreeTempest]

I think the route south of Lavender is cute, and juxtaposes the bleak atmosphere the player has experienced. I also think south-east Kanto is a useful location for doubling back and grinding if you aren't ready for the level jumps waiting for you in Fuchsia and Saffron.

[@tortoisecity]

Fair enough! If you like the atmosphere that's good enough

[@kking1173]

The hardest part of SE Kanto is not falling asleep from the sheer amount of boring fights.

[@tortoisecity]

Fr

[@tanmayw1602]

You can get a super rod here .. which allows you to fish up a dratini in safari zone.

[@BensonMTG]

What we really need to talk about is how that guy lost his TEETH in the safari zone. How???

[@tortoisecity]

This man is out of control, and then he just doesn't look for them or go to work at all?

[@MogusMasterSaikawa22]

I disagree it's a great design choice since it punishes unobservant players who didn't get the bike or look around for the bike voucher. it's a great bit of kanto's multipath design. you can get to fuschia either way it just takes longer and is more annoying if you go down the south east

[@Spectrum0122]

Pokemon games shouldn't be punishing tf? Souls games really made yall masochists

[@MogusMasterSaikawa22]

@@Spectrum0122 XD are people allergic to games having any cost and rewarding observation and good exploration haha ahosif

[@MogusMasterSaikawa22]

I will say though it would have been nice to maybe have one more dungeon down there... shame none of the kanto remakes added any good dungeons despite the dungeons being the highlight of the region.. except in the sevii isles which are dogshit haha

[@bvd_vlvd]

@@MogusMasterSaikawa22 For realsies, we could have had a fourth bird there. Who said the limit had to be three? That would have caused most trios to be quartets. Which means more stupid Regis, yipppiieee :D :D :D :D

[@MogusMasterSaikawa22]

@@bvd_vlvd right hasdoihafsdi. and in frlg it got worse they took moltres out of victory road and put it in a volcano cool!... except it's not even a dungeon at least victory road has a unique set of puzzles and gimmick and is somewhat difficult to navigate the first time through. the volcano sucked shit. oh but visual spectacle is more important to most idiots out there ahsdofi. and context but like who cares why it's in victory road just keep it there haiofd

[@GenX6887]

The only real purpose of that southeast area is to level grind before getting the Fuchsia and Saffron badges.

[@tortoisecity]

Just wish there was cooler pokemon to fight while grinding

[@jamiemckell34]

Is it underdeveloped or grindy? Yes. But you missed two important points... 1. Grinding. Yes, it's boring - more so in the instant gratification age - but levelling up your Pokémon is essential and this is a great area, especially to level up additional team members as there are a variety of trainer types to level up with. (+EXP share - which is there by design despite the coding error in gen1) 2. Kanto is based... On Kanto. And it's trying to be representative of a real world place. It's important they try and do that in a good way. I think that's more than enough reason. They could have made it more interesting. Maybe it could have been themed as a survival gauntlet in one area, that's really hard to get through and you get a nice reward at the end.

[@tortoisecity]

Both valid points, but even for grinding they could have given the trainers more interesting mons to fight

[@RobertoRezende]

The reason for this route to exist is pretty simple: the bicycle is not a mandatory item

[@tortoisecity]

non-linearity is pretty sweet, so fair enough

[@Jotari]

At the very least, and I think this actually is genuinely important, it does make the world feel bigger and more populated in a way that another Sea Foam islands wouldn't. Like, if the area simply weren't there or was replaced by a sea route (when we already have two of those) then Kanto would feel lacking in size and scope. This also served to make the world less linear, which it definitely would feel if it didn't exist (similarily the guards blocking Saffron City didn't need to be designed that way, Vermilion could have been a straight shot from Cerulean, but by putting Saffron in the center and (somewhat contrively) blocking it off, you make the world feel more spread out and open. Even if you never go to south east Kanto, simply existing impacts the feel of the map and world. Could something more interesting have been put there? For sure, just like something more interesting could have been put in many parts of the game, but the question is, what? Would taking away the unique pokemon locations from other locations help? Would less be more? Maybe it would feel more special, but , again, it'd also make the world feel a bit more constricted. Ideally they should have tried to fit Moltres somewhere in there, as Moltres just being put in the mandatory Victory Road always felt like a cop out to me, but if it were all replaced with a Sea Foam Island like location then it'd step on the lived in aspect I mentioned before. Honestly, probably the best thing to do would have just been to put a small town in there where you can acquire a key item for unlocking something else.

[@tortoisecity]

All good points and I agree with your note that it adds some kind of depth to the world to have lots of people here (especially when it feels very empty in gen 2 by comparison) and very much like the idea of a small town here or Moltres or something like that

[@DivisibleByWaffle]

Silence Bridge wasn't meant to be compelling, it was meant to be a difficult alternative route for players who couldn't find the bicycle. I'm not sure I'd call this good design; they should have added more features and draw to the area than just the Super Rod and a second Snorlax. I like the area, but only due to intense nostalgia for the area's music. They also did a great job in Let's Go to put some unique catches in the area, so I think later dev teams acknowledged that the place needed some help.

[@tortoisecity]

Super agree that they've improved since red and blue, even yellow added farfetchd and let's go added so much in general

[@missingnovgc]

Once i found out that there was a glitch to just walk past the guard without a bike for Cycling road, i never went south of Lavender to go to Fuchsia. Did it maybe my first 3 playthroughs. Only thing worth getting is Snorlax number 2 if you want it and the Super Rod, which once you get Surf, you can skip all the trainers between Lavender and the fishing guru house

[@bvd_vlvd]

You can get to the Snorlax from Vermillion so you can skip the northern trainers too lmao, hope they don't get lonely out there

[@missingnovgc]

@@bvd_vlvd lol also true

[@tortoisecity]

that glitch is so much fun

[@Swindle1984]

It's for grinding.

[@AnonymousZenith]

Something can be more than the sum of it's parts. I think SE Kanto's slow pacing down the boardwalk and grass path are a nice, chill experience compared to the fast pacing of cycling road while still gaining EXP and money. Don't necessarily believe something has to be crammed full of "content" in order to be good. Time to enjoy the music and game ambience is a crucial part of the experience in my opinion and this are allows for that very well.

[@tortoisecity]

definitely agree that time to enjoy music and ambience is a valid and good thing, just don't think it pans out in this case. Thanks for the comment!

[@vulcanraven9701]

Like half of the non-Team Rocket trainers in the game are in the routes between Fushia to Lavender and Cycling Road. 😂

[@tortoisecity]

Despite this, they didn't give any of them interesting teams

[@TheDanishGuyReviews]

Oh man, first I hear that you don't need to go to Pacifidlog Town to beat Hoenn, and now this? I've never beat the game without going down there, because it was a wide open place after Lavender Town, and it just made sense to complete the loop.

[@tortoisecity]

honestly until I started speedrunning gen one I had no had idea what was required and what was optional

[@puffypuff3144]

I've always just referred to this area as the 'Kanto Gauntlet' given it's the longest stretch between towns in the game. Southeast Kanto is probably meant to be the '''''intended''''' route to Fuschia, with Cycling Road being a deliberate shortcut to reward explorative players. Think of how easy it would be to miss the bike; most players will try to visit most houses in each town, but it's more than plausible to miss the Fan Club in the corner of Vermillion when there's several other points of interest in the city (nevermind the small gameboy screen). Furthermore, the sheer magnitude of trainers is very helpful in bridging the level gap between Erika (29 or 32 depending on the game) and Koga/Sabrina (42, or *50* in Yellow), especially if you've caught some recent team members you're struggling to get up to speed. I won't deny, however, that this area is freakin' *weird*. Like, in-universe, what's the purpose of the picket fence maze? I did always think the area could benefit from a small, minor town (not unlike the likes of Fallarbor from gen 3 or Celestic from gen 4) as a pit stop partway through to catch your breath, or even a randomly-placed Pokemon Center like the ones near Rock Tunnel and Mt. Moon. I'm surprised none of the remakes added such a thing. A little port town on that east coast is an idea I've had kicking in my head for a long time to potentially use in a romhack. Presumably recently built, more of a business/cargo port than the tourist port of Vermillion. I know that's a weird anecdote, but I felt like sharing.

[@tortoisecity]

thank you for sharing, this is a thoughtful comment! I think a spot like celestic or fallarbor would be a great fit instead of the fence maze, for example, like it just needs something a little more to make it worthwhile

[@PKMNTrainerCal]

I actually really like south-east Kanto because it's a long stretch of countryside with no cities - a nice contrast from the more urban central Kanto. Not to mention that it has one of the best music tracks in the game! Let's Go made the encounter tables more interesting by adding Scyther, Pinsir and Tauros which were previously in the Safari Zone. You can also catch Farfetch'd here in Let's Go and Yellow.

[@tortoisecity]

the additions of different pokemon in yellow and let's go are definite improvements, and I think that having something just a little more goes a long way here

[@pirate4460]

IRL that part of japan has the narita airport, so maybe it's intentionally plain?

[@tortoisecity]

that would make sense given the coastal location

[@KaoruMzk]

It exists so you can get more experience for the upcoming gym battles. If you're not just leveling the starter and are actually playing as GameFreak intended by raising a party of six, you end up pretty under leveled for that part of the game and are encouraged to go east of Fuchsia to battle some extra trainers.

[@tortoisecity]

meh I don't really like the idea that I should play the game the way gamefreak intended, especially since that's in itself subjective

[@wwijsman]

I think the devs wanted to offer another way to travel to Fusia. It does do that.

[@damiang888]

How come nobody mentioned that you get the super rod here? Or maybe I'm just that old and everybody just thinks of Mr. Dazzling in this route

[@tortoisecity]

Super rod is there, I did include a brief snippet of it but didn't literally say it aloud so easy enough to miss!

[@damiang888]

@@tortoisecity lol that explains it, I was mostly just listening, thx for the reply!

[@Zthewise]

Optional? My Nuzlockes say otherwise. That's to many encounters to pass up.

[@ColeYote]

Hadn't occurred to me that this area is technically optional. Although I guess the Kanto game I played most recently was a ROM hack where it wasn't.

[@tortoisecity]

Which hack was that?

[@ColeYote]

@@tortoisecity FireRed Rocket Edition

[@RubUOutC]

Never really thought about it but now that you mention it that “bridgey area” always seemed a little weird.

[@aceclover758]

I always saw this area as a way to go back to Sliph Co since usually, I visited Fushia via cycling road before doing anything in Saffron

[@FrogPrinceMichael61]

can you explain the EXP Share being bugged thing?

[@tortoisecity]

I can try, though I am no expert in the matter! basically it is intended to just equally halve the exp earned from a battle and give half to the pokemon fighting, and half to everyone else. However, if multiple pokemon fight, then some of that exp is lost, rather than distributed equally. I'm not sure on exactly why, but that's the gist of it