Removing Barrels & Stuck Cylinder Head From My Barn Find Triumph Bonneville T140 Project Engine | 04

[@markj8068]

I'm coming to the end of my 76 t140v re-build with all the usual woes of previous owner neglect (sludge trap cap misery one particular horror). I managed to get the head off before removing the barrels as it gave a bit more support, other than that heat and rubber mallet did for me. No matter how good it looks still worth getting it apart to check the condition of the valve guides if nothing else. Good luck, great video series by the way

[@SPANNERRASH]

Thanks. It's a shame I have got this issue, as I expected to be much further on with inspecting the engine. I am intending to do the sludge trap, but that might be some time off.

[@ratman9802]

I had a Weber carb that I could not get apart, I did not want to break the screws. I tried heating the screws etc, eventually I immersed the whole thing in Paraffin (in a closed container) for two weeks, it came apart after that. Try that then remove the studs one at a time. No heat or undue force required. Good luck, great project.

[@SPANNERRASH]

Thanks. I have been thinking of total immersion, I was thinking of acetone, but maybe parafin might wick better. It's a shame when something like this sucks the time out of a project. I really need to get on with some other things.

[@ratman9802]

@@SPANNERRASH People often say Acetone and ATF but they do not mix; I'm not convinced. Splashing various penetrants over seized items just evaporates so I reasoned immersion would give it the best chance. I had an uncle who swore by this. Anyway, the Weber came apart, the Paraffin displaces the moisture held in the corrosion. I get round delays by having far too many projects. I found your plating video very useful by the way so thanks for that. I hope this works for you. Cheers

[@petermosdell580]

I’m no Trumpet expert but have experienced galvanic corrosion on a BMW project and it’s an absolute pig. I think you’re on the right track with the use of heat and a press. The only other thing I would consider is protecting the lead in of the threads with nuts - just till you get it to move. Watching with interest

[@SPANNERRASH]

Cheers. Thanks for the encouragement, and the idea of putting nuts on the studs is really good. I hadn't thought about it but the studs aren't all even, probably 4 or 5 are near enough. If I put nuts on them I can make it more even, if I do go on to try the press idea.

[@bsimpson6204]

You're dead right Peter, corrosion between S/Steel and alloy can be prodigious as I found out using S/steel bolts to hold a mudguard on to a BMW fork leg, grease them up and it’s no problem, just don’t ever leave them bare

[@johnmcdyer1573]

The barrel nuts are definitely not standard the originals looked like the inside of a ring spanner on the outside if you see what I mean cheers

[@4ager505]

I've no experience with the exact situation you are facing, but lots of experience with similar problems. I suggest, if possible, double nut the studs by locking two nuts solidly against each other. Make sure each stud has a small clearance between nuts and top surface of head, and nuts are flush with the outer end of studs. Make up a small aluminum or soft brass drift about 1" diameter by 2"-4" length. Heat cylinder/head assembly to as high temp as you choose, lay assembly, exhaust side down on a soft board or plywood scrap, and place drift against double nuts, each in turn, while hammering drift with a pneumatic hammer. One may be had for cheap at an import tool retailer. The type favored by sheet metal craftsmen and muffler (silencer?) installers. Keep the hammer session short on each stud, keep moving around the pattern of studs. Repeat the cycle around the studs several times...reheat and continue if needed. Adding a penetrating lubricant to studs might help. Regarding the cylinder base nuts...IIRC, the late T 120's ('71-'72) and the T 140's came with 12 point nuts (7/16" or 1/2", can't recall size) which had integral flanges on bottom, that functioned much like a flat washer. They allowed the use of a 12 point, full box wrench (ring spanner ?) to be used to tighten home or break loose tightened nuts. Your cylinder base studs may also be aftermarket replacements. They look longer than typical for late model twins, more like earlier model type. Hope you get things going your way...best to you from the USA...

[@SPANNERRASH]

Thanks very much for the detailed advice. I will look into getting an air hammer, I can see how it would be useful. I have tried with double nuts, both cold and having heated the head. The threads on the studs were giving way so I stopped. I have also considered welding nuts onto the end of the studs, but the fact that they are stainless has caused me to reconsider. I am going to continue with heat, hammer and prayer :)

[@jamesrichardson1901]

"At the suggestion of my wife..." I don't know how many times my Yorkshire Lass wife has pointed out some reasonable mechanical solution while I'm busy overthinking. I often show her your vids as she loves hearing the Accent of Her People and little things like Henry Hoover in the background that remind her of home.

[@SPANNERRASH]

I am glad she is getting some value from my videos. I often turn to the voice of reason to get some ideas. Even when it is something she has absolutely no interest in she usually comes up with something that turns into the catalyst for a solution. Whoever invented the Henry Vacuum should get an award it is probably the best design ever. It might not have the suction of the latest, or be battery powered, but I bet it is easier to use and service, and will still be going when the newer designs are all landfill.

[@jobucklandbuckland8031]

using the two nuts on the threads of the head bolts try to undo them with the barrel head in the vice or similar i think youve got weld going on between the metals of the head and studs , do it equally on all 10 studs , if you get a little movement then work it back and forth then use the tap it off with the wood again

[@SPANNERRASH]

I have tried the two nuts method, but they really aren't for moving. I have thought of welding a nut to end of each stud, but with them being stainless it is a little more complicated. I may give it another go with a lot more heat.

[@davidguimont6616]

Babe wake up Spanned Rash just uploaded

[@SPANNERRASH]

Sorry to disturb your slumber :)

[@5591408]

Fit a blank ( attachment ) your air chisel, turn the air down a bit and use the attachment on the studs and let the vibration do the work. Ideally heat the head up again for max aluminium growth, after a bit of vibration on each stud use on old candle and try and get some meted wax or other penetrating oil between the stud and head, might take a few cycles Should have made clear the end of the air chisel attachment should be squared off like a punch

[@SPANNERRASH]

Great idea about the blunt air chisel. Will have to look deep into the toolbox to see if I still have one. I am leaning towards putting it in the oven at max for a while to see if it makes a difference.

[@russturner1570]

The inner 4 base nuts on a 1976 motor should be 12-point type ,the outer 4 as shown.Suggest that the barrels have been removed at some stage.

[@SPANNERRASH]

Thanks. I am sure this engine has seen more than a few spanners. It's a shame the head is stuck, because I think they tried to do a really good job, not realising what 30 years of galvanic corrosion might be an issue.

[@terrydutton5727]

If you can get an induction heater on the studs. Heat them up and cool for a few cycles. Then double nut the studs and see they will unscrew.

[@SPANNERRASH]

What a great idea. I never thought of induction heating. I will have to research whether you can get them small enough to work with these studs.

[@richardbutterfield7399]

try soaking the lot in diesel and leave for a week or two diesel is a very good penetrant and should help with the separation of the head / barrel.

[@SPANNERRASH]

Maybe diesel next. It has had a few weeks in paraffin (US kerosene) with no joy. But it did come up clean. I keep hoping that one day it will just fall off :)

[@Alanlanger1959]

Have you thought of some wooden wedges between the block and cylinder head Then reheat in the oven with the bores facing upwards and put engine oil in the bores Hopefully the light pressure of the wedges and heat will allow the oil to seep through and free it off

[@SPANNERRASH]

Thanks for the idea. I think to put enough pressure on the head it would need the wedges to be really tight. I am nervous of snapping the fins on either the head or the barrels. I will have a look at this though, maybe put the wedges in, and put it all in water to make them swell. It is a thought.

[@philw4053]

Interesting problem! I made a pulling plate to get the barrels off my Suzuki GT750 - and I think you could use the same principle here. 1. Screw nuts down onto the studs so they are flush with the top of the studs 2. Get a piece of 10mm steel plate cut to be 1" or so wider than the plan view of the cylinder head in both directions 3. Drill holes in the plate to line up with the holes for the rocker cover bolts 4. Bolt the pulling plate down using bolts through the plate and into the rocker cover holes. So that the pulling plate is resting tight on the studs with the flush nuts. 5. Slowly wind the nuts up the studs so that they push up on the plate. Maybe that will break the seal? Or of course it could break your engine! Good luck!

[@SPANNERRASH]

Thanks for the detailed technique, it is a good idea, but I am not sure the rocker cover mounting threads would be up to the job. I know they are easy to strip without putting them under much duress. I will give it serious consideration, but I would rather damage the barrels than the head, and it feels like all of the risk would be to the head, so I may try it as a last resource.

[@philw4053]

@SPANNERRASH Do the holes go all the way through the rocker cover casing? If they do you could use bolts 1mm smaller diameter and a nut on the other side. I have complete faith you will solve it one way or another. Channel your Allen Millyard 😊 ​

[@paulsire]

No clue unfortunately but have you asked Dirty Garage Guy? He is live at the moment

[@SPANNERRASH]

Ha. I thought you were skitting about my workshop hygiene! But now I have looked it up, he's not live now, but I will take a look at his stuff.

[@chrisbaucom4832]

use the two bolt lock together method to remove the studs then it should come off easily that is stuck area if in fact someone used stainless steel studs without applying anti seize.

[@SPANNERRASH]

I have tried the two nut method, the studs are not for moving. I am going to try more heat next time. It definitely seems to be the stainless studs welded to the head.

[@daveco1270]

When I lose a nut or small part I think "where's the oddest place it could have ended up" then I look there...and I find it a lot of the time. It doesn't seem like the head should be stuck on the barrel like that. I'd imagine it's just a copper gasket between the two.

[@SPANNERRASH]

You often find that things are hidden in plain sight, they're missing, and then they are there. I have started to think it is a glitch in the simulation that we are all living in, or that there is some demon tormenting us! I think it is likely that it should be a copper gasket, but I have heard some people have had similar issues with composite gaskets. I think it is more likely that it is the stainless studs that are causing the issue.

[@rightfootshifter]

Remove or loosen the studs, I think thats your main problem. And it will give you more options for tapping sideways.

[@SPANNERRASH]

I have had quite a go at the studs. I think it is the corrosion between them and the tunnels through the head that is the problem. I have thought about welding nuts onto the end but I am not sure with them being stainless.

[@rightfootshifter]

I guess you soaked the studs with some release agent first? Try locking nuts before the welding option.

[@vorhese]

Stainless/Aluminum always causing problems. Try atf/acetone on the headside. Can you submerge the whole head upside down? Hopefully it will creep in those stud holes.Heat dunk, heat dunk. Also get a bronze hammer and start tapping on each stud around and around. It might slowly move a little at a time. Then scrap those staineless studs,

[@SPANNERRASH]

Interesting info I am going to get on with some other aspects of the project, so like you suggest I might leave the head submerged in acetone/atf, it certainly can't hurt. Maybe with occasional heating.

[@damiantuttle1348]

I've already told you what to do , no amount of thrashing it and heating it up will free it...its galvanic corrosion on the 2 x 5/16" centre studs .. get a competent engineer to set it up on the Miller bed and do it properly, I had EXACTLY the same issue and it all worked out fine.

[@SPANNERRASH]

Thanks. However, first find your engineer. They all seem to have given up. No doubt I will eventually find one. But it may just be cheaper to buy an alternative.

[@damiantuttle1348]

Where are you based ​@@SPANNERRASH

[@johnmunns5964]

The stainless studs are probably the problem, I always "neverseize" my studs even if they are a loose fit. If the head has been overtightened it can squash the alloy around the stud, they look tight from here. Maybe build 10 little dams around the studs and fill them with penetrating stuff. I reakon the loose studs should rock a bit, maybe a few taps sideways with a copper or alloy drift. Maybe a 14 x 1.25 bolt drilled with a grease nipple fitted but that will only work till the head gasket lets go. I have plastic log splitting wedges that are great for putting load on things without damage. Good luck, looks nasty, I'd be looking at the studs, flick them when you get the head off, not a good idea at all👍

[@johnmunns5964]

Build the dams with plasticene🇦🇺

[@SPANNERRASH]

Sounds like a good idea. I was thinking of just putting it into a parafin bath for a week or two. The heat. I am a great believer in anti-seize. We get through a lot of copper grease! :)

[@KKTR3]

Isn’t there a proper tightening sequence for those base nuts? You can also get a wing spanner that works on them

[@SPANNERRASH]

Thanks for the ideas, but I can't find a sequence for the base nuts, but I would work from the middle outwards when tightening. I really can't find a "wing" spanner, you will have to tell me more about it.

[@KKTR3]

@@SPANNERRASH the special wings spanner used to be very helpful, particularly with the aluminum piston and barrel kit.

[@richardbartlett6932]

Since your last video I've joined you with a project. '81 T140ES. Not as bad as that but every day I find something worse than the previous day :-)

[@SPANNERRASH]

Great we can both struggle together. You would think I would learn, but Look up Carnival Clown to Best in Town on the RAT forum. You will see a previous project on mine, before I had more sense! :)

[@recidivist11]

The stainless stud and Alloy head have corroded together. heat to two hundred then cool and heat again. you may need to cool a bit quicker than just air temp maybe up them in a freezer?

[@SPANNERRASH]

Thanks. I am going to try a higher temperature, and maybe freezing.

[@TheYorkie1954]

the stainless studs have probably reacted with the aluminiun head and stuck

[@richardbartlett6932]

see the previous videos.

[@SPANNERRASH]

That seems to be the issue. I have tried to remove the studs, but they aren't for moving. Some have also said that the you can also have this issue if you use a composite gasket.

[@TheYorkie1954]

@@SPANNERRASH only ever used copper ones

[@hog1100]

did you remove the head fro the barrel ???

[@SPANNERRASH]

At this point no. I have left it soaking in penetrating oil, with occasional heating. I am thinking of welding some nuts onto the studs, but I don't want to do anything drastic yet. Luckily there is plenty of other stuff to do.

[@hog1100]

@SPANNERRASH - I have the same problem. Let me know how is going. Thanks

[@matthewharmer1656]

If it was me ,after getting the head really hot with a propane torch I would use a block of wood and a BIG hammer ,if that didn't work,get a price from a machine shop to fully drill the studs out.

[@SPANNERRASH]

Drilling the studs out sounds like a good idea. I will have to look inot that, the big hammer just isn't working.

[@KKTR3]

If you overtighten the rocker box, it can actually loosen the cylinder head. It’s a problem and something you need to think about when building the engine back up, but couldn’t you use that method now to actually make it work for you?

[@SPANNERRASH]

Thanks. It would be great if the rocker box would loosen the head, but I can't see how it would work in this case. But I will give it a good thinking about.

[@KKTR3]

@@SPANNERRASH it’s a recognize problem something you need to be careful about but it’s probably too late because you’ve taken the barrels off it might work. I’m not sure but basically when you’re tightening down the rocker boxes they go into cylinder head fixings and if you over talk them you effectively, loosen those fixings now because this has been completely converted to studs once again I don’t think that will work

[@terryrance2662]

Is your frame number punched on the right hand side? Also a personal question, how was your bike transported to the Uk? I have T120 that i want to send to the Uk as I'm returning to retire back there.

[@SPANNERRASH]

The frame number is on the left of the steering head. The bike was imported by a company that brings in quite a few at a time, in a container. I haven't any experience of importing myself, but I do think that there are companies that can organise it all for you. A company in the US I have bought from was Flashback, which can find on line, it might be worth ringing them and asking. Good luck.

[@terryrance2662]

@@SPANNERRASHThanks , I will look into it. Looking forward to another installment on the T140 and others too.

[@brianjackson4960]

Try to get the studs out of the barrel

[@SPANNERRASH]

I have put some effort into trying to remove the studs, but they are very stuck.

[@KKTR3]

No help then putting them into a hot oven

[@SPANNERRASH]

Planning to repeat with higher temps. If successful you will see :)

[@MrSprocket2u]

not 7/16

[@SPANNERRASH]

Probably not, but what? :)