Speaker Placement: Is half-way between floor and ceiling a bad idea? - AcousticsInsider.com

[@bobcabrera3080]

Jesco, I'm honored that you used my question for this video. I had a similar conversation with one of the audio consultants at GIK. It's so good to get the same/similar answer from two different people. I was concerned about my tweeters being at the 48" mid-point of the room height, but you both agree that this is a woofer height issue (my woofers are 42" from the floor, 6" below the tweeters), so I think I'll be ok...but I will most definitely download you Phantom Speaker Test...another great tool that you are providing to us (your loyal subscribers). One additional point made by the gentleman from GIK is that a consequence of a higher speaker placement at a downward angle is the possibility of increased desk reflections. THANKS AGAIN!

[@tudoravram2305]

Hi Jesko. I see on the internet a bunch of information about subwoofer placement, especially for studios. All of them take into consideration the horizontal distance between the ear and the monitors, but do not take into consideration the difference in hight between the ears and the monitors in comparison with the distance between the ears and the subwoofer. If we look at a classical two dimensional drawing of a head, two monitors and a central subwoofer, we see that on the horizontal plane we should have the same distance ear-monitors and ear-subwoofer, so the subwoofer is usually placed beyond the plane of the speakers (a little bit closer to the front wall) because the median/bisector of the equilateral triangle is smaller than the sides of the triangle. Now if we take into consideration a three dimensional drawing of the same setup and calculate the distances we can perfectly see that the ear-subwoofer distance is longer than the ear-monitors distance because we have the vertical axis component added. So correct me if I am wrong, but I think the correct position of a subwoofer should be closer to the listener on the horizontal axis so that the direct distances (ear-monitors, ear-subwoofer) are the same. Also if we take into consideration that usually people have the crossover point set to a classical 80Hz point (I personally have it at 60Hz because I hear less of a separation between the monitors frequ. and the subwoofer frequ.), that would mea that all the frequencies +/- 10Hz would have a length of 3.8 - 4.9m so if the misalignment is 10-20-30 cm, that would mean that it will not compromise the sound too much because it would be a phase shift of less than 5% of the frequencies near the crossover point, but I don t know what would that mean for the alignment between subwoofer and the tweeter frequencies. Please share your opinion on the matter if you have the time.

[@nigel7880]

Most absolutely based and sage wisdom on sub placement I've seen, master Boggy! www.gearslutz.com/board/studio-building-acoustics/727739-how-properly-setup-subwoofer.html

[@b1j]

I’ve been listening to you for about a month now. I typically find that what you say makes sense. With this video in particular you have an extremely lucid message which I find helpful.

[@nicoium6698]

I just rediscovered your videos today. The first time, a few month ago, I just left after a minute because the video wasn't flashy enough. But after a lot of contradicting "facts" from all over the internet, I am happy to have rediscovered someone who seems to be trustworthy with his statements. But for now I need to test this claim and watch some more videos of yours :D

[@welderfixer]

I just raised my speakers 3" higher and that made the sound stage and separation so much better! So, change the height a little at a time over several days until you find the perfect placement.

[@223Mattc]

Another great video Jesco! Wondering if you could make a short video explaining the method to modifying the equilateral triangle in the phantom speaker test.

[@robertyoung1777]

Please consider making a video talk about MONO set up. I like to listen to 1960s mono records. Would it be better to use one speaker or stick with the stereo pair? Great content.

[@jalapainyo]

Hey Jesco, Thanks for the information it's always helpful. What's your opinion on using curved luan for diffusing? Cheers!

[@zincminus3793]

Hello Jesko, happy to have discovered your channel today ;) I have a question for you, years ago I picked up one of Brian Eno’s ambient LP’s where on the back of the Al um cover he had a diagram which explained how to utilize a third speaker to pick up sounds on an LP that one would otherwise never hear! Anyway I did so and was blown away by the set up!!! Unfortunately I no longer have the LP but want to recreate that setup, can you do a video on that or simply respond in a text as to how to do it and why it works! I believe Brian said something about phase cancelation being what causes this effect!?

[@foxytv4896]

You can tell by the laptop speakers listening to your voice that your room sounds good !

[@sickmessiah]

In my small studio in which I built a room within a room. I choose iso acoustic stands which have an angle option and are on top of speaker stands. I have a big sit stand desk with a mixer .. My screen 📺 is up high at around 5 feet in a 7 foot 5 room. Which is highly treated with Rockwool panels. Angeled works best for me. My total room size is 9x16x7”5 roughly. 80% of my ceiling is covered a 8inch Rockwool panels with a 1 inch gap. I prefer the angled option out of the room mode. For best mixing I lower my sit stand desk down to under 2 foot to avoid more early reflections.

[@behindsociety4919]

Sehr interessantes Video. Welches Mikrofon verwendest du für Messungen in Räumen?

[@steverichard-preston9346]

But isn't this frequency specific? You can move the speaker down and it'll be in the node of another frequency?

[@skatepark02]

Surely you could avoid SBIR on two dimensions by placing the speakers right up against the wall and ceiling?

[@hilde45]

How about lowering speakers and ear height (with different stands and different chair height)? Is that a more elegant solution? Increased floor bounce could be dealt with a rug and sufficiently effective rug pad.

[@aaronmiller7587]

I was just thinking about this the other day and recently followed you, amazing how the world works, thanks!

[@chrisbistrishki]

Heya, Jesko! First of all - awesome video! Glad I stumbled upon your channel recently. I wanted to ask you something I don't seem to be finding answer to, but might be an interesting/important question. So I recently completed my home studio with DIY acoustic panels. I was told by an experienced audio engineer, a friend of mine, that I could use thin 5mm chipboard (you know, the material usually used for the back of furniture like wardrobes) for the back of my panels. I never really questioned it and I went for it, but since it's technically a reflective surface I wanted to ask - is it bad to use this as the back of bass traps/absorbers? I have an air gap (a substantial one behind the bass traps and a 5 cm one behind my 5 cm thick first reflection and cloud panels) but I was wondering if this flat "reflective" surface has some sort of negative impact, I imagine after the mid/high frequency sound waves go through the mineral wool and then hit the back of the panel? I really didn't want to use fabric for the back since I wanted maximum longevity and protection from rockwool particles, but I'm wondering if that was a mistake. Cheers!

[@ontogeny6474]

Curious about this too. I'm about ready to build panels/traps and also plan on using solid backings.

[@HewMiller]

5mm of chipboard doesn't have enough mass to make any effect on reflection at the back of your traps / absorber. The only frequencies this will reflect (above 2k) will have been absorbed by your absorbers. This material is having no acoustic effect.

[@tudoravram2305]

I`ll try an answer for you and wait for Jesko`s opinion as well. If you have the back of your first reflection point panels up against the wall, than I don`t see a difference between the wall as a reflective surface and the chipboard. With the bass traps I think it`s another story. I`m guessing that you have rectangular bass traps mounted at a 45 degree angle in the corners (not the full/half-full triangular bass traps). So if you have the insulation, than an air gap inside the panel (of 5-10-15 cm), than the chipboard, and than you have another air gap in the remaining corner, I think the chipboard will act as an reflective surface for some of the high frequencies and maybe as a resonating diaphragm for the low frequencies (half reflecting/half transmitting). But all in all, I think the presence of the chipboard will reduce the effect of the larger air gap if you would have went with fabric back.

[@chrisbistrishki]

@@tudoravram2305 I have a 5cm gap between the wall and the first reflection panels, which are also around 5 cm thick, 50 kg/m3 rockwool and chipboard back. Cloud is the same deal. Then the bass traps consist of three layers of said rockwool so around 15 cm thick and they are basically rectangular boxes (fabric on the front, insulation in between, chipboard as the back) mounted at 45° in the corners so I have around 30-40 cm airgap between the back of the panel and the corner itself. Not sure I quite understood what you meant man, sorry, could you elaborate more on your thoughts and opinions on the matter?

[@tudoravram2305]

@@chrisbistrishki I thought you had an extra air gap inside the pannel between the insulation and the chioboard of the panel. It is true like Hew Miller said most of the high frequencies will get ansorbed until they reach the back of the pannel and even when they get reflected back they will be absorbed even more, and with the low frequencies probably the chipboard will have no or minimum effect (maybe in the realm of 400-1000). So all in all i don t thing it will make that much of a difference. I personally got some semi-thick black fabric for the back and I vacuum clean the panels from time to time on both sides for any micro particles displaced by bass vibration.

[@andynonimuss6298]

The speaker height to ear height is usually set based on the acoustic axis, or the midpoint between the tweeter and woofer. Adam Audio also suggests using the acoustic axis. The average ear height while sitting in an ergonomic chair falls in the range of 43" to 46".

[@damonshanabarger2604]

Generally speaking, I have one general setting I keep my house monitor EQ. Depending upon the speaker type and the particular position of the speakers and acoustics of the room, the tweeters sound high pitch and screechy. I actually prefer this because it makes it possible to have a much larger sweet spot so I'm not tethered to a certain position and am able to concentrate on the dynamics and processing of my guitars, keyboard, drum machine, and synthesizers. If I'm doing any crucial listening, I stand in front of the speakers directly stereo right and left with the midrange at ear level. Unless I'm standing on a couple bricks, the tweeters are not going to hit my ears directly. Also the perceived direction of the music coming from a higher position makes for a more enjoyable listening experience. The higher I turn up the volume, the wider and more involved the perceived live band sound becomes. In some rooms though, there seems to be discrepancies in the perceivable bass level. Not the frequency of the bass content, but rather the perceived level of the metaphoric or literal slide fader that controls the perceived bass level. If I try to compensate for this by pulling down bass frequencies, I wreck the tonal quality of the bass and also detract from the other instruments to some degree and extent. This becomes less obvious when the volume is lowered. The down side of this is that the higher content of the music begins to dull. I've trained my ears to be mindful of these discrepancies and ignore them. Case in point, have the bass tonally balanced and push up the slide fader higher than what would be ideal for that moment since the prerecorded store bought material is going to sound the same way.

[@damonshanabarger2604]

This method works well for tracking, not for mixing. I must point out that my basement already has it's own acoustic sound treatment built in. Acoustic drop ceiling tiles and a carpet on a brass pad that was installed by a water proofing company by the previous owner. Two small rooms openly joined into one large room. The larger room doesn't have the same over bass problem as the two smaller rooms. The volume needs to be higher or the high frequency content seems to get lost. I'm thinking all I need is more speakers. Mixing is going to be more of a challenge though. I like to run a number of side chain tracks and re-amp.

[@DanaVastman]

Fantastic REAL world discussion for us home studio artists! Thanks!

[@dukeGed]

jesco hello, i have 1.97m heigh ceiling where my monitors are, at normal position, im getting nulls about 130 (floor bounce) and 70, so what i did, was turned speakers upside down, tweeter is firing at my ear height, this really removed those two issues, what you thoughts about it? turning speakers upside down, thank you

[@juanmillaruelo7647]

Just as long as the tweeters are at ear level you should have no problem with the treble. And you've solved your bass problems. I would call it a success.

[@niclasrundkvist]

Thanks for yet another great and informative video. I have to place my speakers right above my super ultra wide screen. I have lowered the sceen as much as possible, but to get the tweeters at ear level I had to simply turn the speakers upside down, instead of angle them down. Is this an ok way to solve this or am I creating other kind of problems by doing this?

[@tim110-handle]

Do you have any advice for people with standing desks? Considering room modes etc.

[@fairblues]

Really great info - thanks a million. It would be great to see a video on some really "rough and ready" quick fixes for spare room recordists - who have limited technical understanding - but are trying to get do-able compromises in terms of setting up the room with cheap speakers - limited acoustic treatment and scant resources etc. I know they're are no shortcuts - but in reality I myself am definitely having to make huge compromises as regards to what I understand technically about treating my room and also what I can actually change in it, (I can't change the carpet for instance). Just an idea - but any vids you do are priceless - thanks again.

[@alcoshino]

Hi Jesco, what are your thoughts on SPL meters for speaker and REW software calibration. Majority of the spl meters on the market are going up to 8.5 kHz. Appreciate energy is significantly lower above 8.5k, but does it matter for precision of calibration?

[@robertroycegroome2953]

Hey Jesco, great video! I've set up my listening room using the technique described for my existing rear ported monitor but I'm considering upgrading the monitors in the future. (I started out with cheaper entry level near fields and am considering moving up to more advanced speakers). I'm wondering how the phantom centre would be impacted by switching from rear to front ported monitors. What are some of the things to consider when upgrading monitors after a room has already been set up around existing monitors. With Covid I havent been able to get into professional studios to check my mixes so I'm considering upgrading my set at home.

[@riktascale4]

By concrete bonker do you mean concrete room synonymously? Also are you saying the node may not be between the floor and actual ceiling vs floating ceiling? Testing is a real drag especially with room eq. Thanks will check out the software.

[@funkerfogt1869]

Where I can check your Bass Hunter Technique? Thanks!

[@QuangNguyen-nh2oc]

Please do a video on whether wrapping seran wrap around your acoustic material so that it does get out to the room when making an acoustic panel/bass trap will or will not affect sound absorption. Thank you!

[@tiagolorena]

Hi Jesco! This reminded me of the center speaker in surround layouts. Do you think you could talk about surround (5.1 or 7.1) at some point? I find it much easier to plan for a stereo setup of course and there's very little information or tips for surround. In my particular layout, I'm sitting in the back of a rectangular room (2/3 the length), so I'm about 2x farther from my front LCR in relation to my surrounds. I can see in my measurements that the phase response is much steeper (going downwards from low to mids) on the LCR, whereas the surrounds show a more gentle slope. This makes the integration of front and surround speakers a bit wonky. Anyways, would love to see some information on surround setups. Cheers!

[@cinmay05]

Love your videos. They have helped me a lot. I hava question. How much impact has vibrations created by the monitors when they sitting on a desk? I'm building a desk now and I'm considering 'flying' the monitors to avoid vibrations but I'm wondering if it's worth the effort? Are acoustics vibration absorbers good good enough?

[@unclemick-synths]

For me the biggest issue with speakers on the desk is all the reflections off the desk. I would recommend floor stands. Having said that the Auralex MoPads work fine for isolating the speakers from the desk to avoid vibrations.

[@cinmay05]

@@unclemick-synths Thank your reply. The monitors are on sort of pillars, and the desk is quite small. But still. Some reflection is unavoidable. I'll try out the MoPads. Than you.

[@evertschut]

Hi Jesco, Let me start by saying that I really appreciate the way you help the home studio owner to get the best out of their room! Your explanations are easy to follow and very practical. I have a question which you may help solve, and which others might appreciate too. I'm building a studio in my attic: one with sloped roofs to both sides of the house. Probably not ideal I guess, but I have no other options. The dimensions are 8 meters by 3.5 meters and about 3.4 meters high (I don't know exactly because there is a ceiling/ storage space built in the top part at about 2.4 meters up - I might get rid of that) However there are more storage spaces where the roof meets the floor on eiter side, about 90 cm deep. Also there's a dormer window built out 2.1 meters high and 1.9 meters wide on one side of the attic. My first question is: is it OK to place my mixing desk facing the window, with my monitors (just) under the ceiling of the dormer window, or would it be better to place my mix desk halfway lengthwise (with only 3.5 meters to the opposite wall.....). My guess is that the low ceiling of the dormer window is less of a problem with the advantage of a much longer room? My second question: would it help to get rid of the ceiling/ storage space and fill that up with bass traps (I already have 22 DIY rockwool traps form my previous home studio)? Greetings from the Netherlands, Evert

[@RaytownProductions]

Another incredible video. Thanks Jesco!

[@AffinityPhoto]

Few questions: Can raising and pointing downward minimize comb filtering from the desk? If the speakers aren’t D'Appolito configuration, can’t this person lower the speakers and invert them because the woofer/tweeter config causes the high frequencies to bend upwards unless they are time aligned? Conversely, if that’s true, they could raise the speakers and not point them down further reducing comb filtering even more all the while the sound lobe is pointed slightly downwards. Maybe this is all only of use at or near the crossover point.

[@shotaro_music7625]

It was very helpful! Thank you for the informative video!🙏🙏

[@williamchen33]

I have thought about building some boxes that would go under my speaker stands. That might effectively raise the lower boundary & as a result move the mid point between floor and ceiling above where the speakers are, and allow you to stay on the same plane as tweeters / woofer.

[@trevorm574]

Great vid, but if you drive a nullpoint you actually cancel the pressure polarity behaviour on either side of it. You should indeed put a woofer at a midpoint to neutralize modal issues in small rooms. This is especially beneficial with subwoofers in home theater aplications.

[@andynonimuss6298]

Placing a woofer at the midpoint of a 8 foot high room would be at 48". And placing a woofer at the midpoint of a 9 foot high room would 54". The average ear height while sitting in an ergonomic chair falls in the range of 43" to 45". Even if we use an ear height of 45", then the woofer center would be 3" above our ears in the 8 foot high room, and 9" above our ears in a 9 foot high room. Placing a woofer at the midpoint of a room doesn't make any mathematical or practical sense.

[@trevorm574]

@@andynonimuss6298 In structured installs you can install whatever you like behind stretched fabric. Invisible.

[@joost3783]

With neumann speakers for example, they say it has the acoustical axis between the tweeter and the woofer, so that is where my ear height is. Would you still place the tweeter at hear height?

[@andynonimuss6298]

From the floor to the acoustic axis. The average ear height while sitting in an ergonomic chair falls in the range of 43" to 45".

[@an30805]

The “Node” is at the floor and ceiling. The “Anti-Node” is in the room center in you first example.

[@keithmoriyama5421]

What about soffit mounted monitors?

[@PeterDMayr]

Hang the speakers from the ceiling sing some kind of a basket would allow to remove any vibration. Good idea for a sub especially.

[@alambe7275]

Wow! let’s try to just keep it simple what is the best height for speakers What is the best height for your height speakers

[@arkh1730]

hey anyone know if u need to do the entire floor to isolate the sound from the speakers or a plataform beneath the speaker area is enough ?

[@YeOldMetaldude]

Though the video, and your blog in general is advice for (smaller) studios, I find most of the information applicable to my listen room, which is also small and most of the information translates very well. The height of my listening room is only 7' 8" and both sets of my speakers are on stands. I basically had to do speaker placement not just for room boundaries but for listening height too. This, like all things audio involves tradeoffs. I am only 5'5" so the height is setup for me and taller people who come by to listen may experience a different frequency response from the setup. You may be able to see this to some degree on the icon for my name. It took a long time to get the setup "listenable" even longer to be able to resolve finer detail and even longer to get good clear, deep articulate bass, but I am going on 15 years in the same space so over time I really got to "know" my room. If you were to visit you would see that no speaker has the same distance to any room boundary or the neighboring speaker including the ceiling. I have a notebook that I keep with the measurements. I learned the hard way years ago by moving a speaker to help with, say lumpy bass in one area of the room and then ended up with it sounding worse than before, but could not get back to were it was because I did not have the original spot marked and "lost the tuneup". Small, sometimes very small adjustments are all that's needed and the adjustments got progressively smaller over the years and I rarely make all but very small changes now unless I have replaced or upgraded a piece of gear. I will say most adjustments now are due to differing weather conditions. Love the blog keep up the good work ! (PS- you can see the original (cover) pic on my FB home page) facebook.com/robert.mcmichael.963/

[@C--A]

Robert Macmichael your ceiling is only 7ft8 😳 that's tiny way smaller than most European, UK homes that usually have at least a 9 feet ceiling. Suppose you being little only 5ft5 you could use smaller speaker stands. But ideally you need a better room with a 9 feet ceiling to get the most out of your speakers.

[@YeOldMetaldude]

@@C--A Yes, sad but true, 88" actually.

[@SpeakerBuilder]

Actually, if the tweeter is at ear height and midway btw floor and ceiling, and this is a tower speaker, then the bass driver is much closer to the floor and therefore not midway, or if a satellite speaker, the bass driver may be on the floor in a subwoofer cabinet. But in the real world, most of us sit with an ear height at about three feet with most rooms having an 8 foot ceiling, so this won't be an issue.

[@andynonimuss6298]

Average ceiling is 8 feet for homes prior to 2000. The current average ceiling height is 9 feet to 10 feet in modern homes. The average ear height while sitting in an ergonomic chair falls in the range of 43" to 46". Sitting with an ear height of 3 feet is very inaccurate, so not sure where that misinformation was drawn from.

[@SpeakerBuilder]

@@andynonimuss6298 You are correct, my ear height in my listening chair is right at 44", and whereas I have 8 foot ceilings in the rest of my house (built @ 1970), my new listening room has a 5/12 pitch cathedral ceiling. But then, with high and mid frequencies, reflections will always be an issue which requires room treatment with absorptive and defractive panels, and with low frequencies, various room modes will be generated regardless of room shape, and therefore will require careful and deliberate placement of bass speakers to eliminate as best as possible any peak or null modes in the listening position. With these two corrections (room treatment and bass speaker placement), the results can be absolutely amazing, even with a moderately revealing system.

[@andynonimuss6298]

@@SpeakerBuilder Understood.

[@miked5487]

Can we not just have a bass trap above our heads?

[@jcisme]

I was thinking the same thing.

[@h-voltage]

You can always just flip the speakers upside-down in this case...

[@emeerhof]

Put your speakers upside down