Spear usage

I have already made one follow-up to this one, and I suspect there will be one or two more after that. For more on this topic, see also my video "Dark age re-enactment with commentary".
www.LloydianAspects.co.uk

[@rchetype7029]

"All my thrusts are weak and awkward," story of my life.

[@popalupa4844]

Dating life you mean?

[@nikitaonassis6090]

It is not about the ineffective large and floppy size, but the ones that can poke and twist and turn and poke..

[@williamsullivan7818]

Every time I'm thrusting the other person is enjoying it. Story of my dating life.

[@madcircle7311]

ara ara ara

[@zerozeroone4424]

@@madcircle7311 give me the mommy milkers

[@justgonnastay]

"I've got a lot of choice in what I thrust at." *sigh* To be young and single again...

[@bluecollarboy90]

"a point about spears" "that's their shtick" stop it, you're killing me.

[@AvrahamYairStern]

But Schtik is Yiddish, I understand your point, but I'm afraid the pun doesn't work.

[@michalcooperman201]

Oh I don't know, a bilingual pun, works for me.

[@rollespil1000]

"There's an awful lot of spear, sticking out there". Marvellous sentence, I suspect some guy in ancient times said exactly the same thing.

[@birdiemcchicken1471]

Especially since ancient peoples were more perverted than people like to think :p

[@boatsnhoesshanghai]

+Birdie McChicken i think that people back then were probably more disgusting and open to "new things" than we could ever be today. i mean, history is recorded by the literate who were far and few. leaving many disgusting peasants orgies completely undocumented.

[@birdiemcchicken1471]

UrbanWanderer Considering the Egyptians turned Bast from a goddess of battle to a goddess of sex.. Yeah, prolly.

[@boatsnhoesshanghai]

Birdie McChicken egyptian and roman elite alike both enjoyed have young boy sex slaves

[@boatsnhoesshanghai]

:/

[@rocknrollbabyyy8269]

i love how excited he gets, makes me feel like im not crazy when i get passionate about pointless subjects

[@benjamingibson3548]

That had better not have been a pun.

[@MushVPeets]

+Nathaniel Patterson Spears are hardly pointless subjects... actually, having a point is the whole point...

[@markreintjes9030]

You guys made my night!

[@michaelcorden4062]

Why would this be pointless I always have spear fights and it’s always in Tesco

[@capnclawhammer3024]

I wonder if the hoplites used underarm spear deodorant...

[@joshuastarkloff9602]

+Asura R-R Vikings used Axe deodorant. : p

[@Bloink]

a *point* about spears :-)

[@ruolbu]

+Elias Marklund "a point about - insert pointy object here -" -> half of lloyds videos ;)

[@Bloink]

True :-)ruolbu

[@joops110]

+Elias Marklund Because spears have a point, I get it!

[@marcodatreviso9619]

+ruolbu A point about shields........hmmm doesn't work

[@ruolbu]

must be part of the other half of his videos :p

[@daddyleon]

okay: under-arm = spear upper-arm = javalin

[@AdobadoFantastico]

Simple, clear, concise.

[@daddyleon]

Anguel Roumenov Bogoev Quite :3

[@factinfantasy]

daddyleon what about pikes ? similar weapon, but in what manner would they be held

[@AdobadoFantastico]

sylvr I would presume the same way as a spear. They're largely intended for use against horses(as i understand it), so the priority would be stability as you angle it upward into the central mass of an oncoming rider. In any case, they're so god-damned big I can't imagine holding one overhead for any length of time.

[@daddyleon]

sylvr In the ribs of your opponent, similar for halberds, but that's in the ribs of the opponent's horse.

[@lindybeige]

They are usually depicted as having the shield hang from a strap that goes over the left shoulder and across the back. The sarrissa had a counterweight at the butt end.

[@AlexanderHL1919]

"Be like a spear, and have a point! hehe" Rome II Total War will understand ;)

[@JdeMonster]

Yeah. Do you also use the spear wall troy defense tactic?

[@Yourantsally]

AlexanderHL the gaulic voices were kind of annoying

[@aaronzanardelli618]

a trireme must have but one steersman

[@Yourantsally]

Trade... well... no...

[@nectartyrant1390]

+Yourantsally Gaul. Such a woody word.

[@andrewsuryali]

This ties in to the shieldwall video, but when I did reenactments in college, the overarm grip was the only physical way to use the spear during a shieldwall scrum because the guys pushing me from the back prevented me from turning my torso sideways to let me use an underarm grip, plus I had to shorten the spear to hit the opponent. I do agree with Lloyd that this kind of scrum is probably rare in real history. It tends to happen a lot in reenactments because reenactors don't die when they lose.

[@SnorriTheLlama]

Being pressed together more than you want to seems like it could be accurate in a battle. Need to look at other sources but Bayeux tapestry has gone all in on the overarm grip which looks how you would be close together. If you can use two hands because your shield is strapped like in Phalanx fine, underarm double grip is better. Otherwise doesn’t seem it would work very well due to space/shields. Pike and spear are similar, but actually seem more like different weapons in terms of how they are used in formations.

[@legisnuntius]

It's easier to twist the spear under arm as well, which is advantageous for finding a weakness in armor. The Chinese technique involves always turning the spear a quarter turn.

[@WORKERS.DREADNOUGHT]

In the English Civil Wars pikes were 18 ft long but were routinely cut down to 12 ft as tey were too difficult to handle ( unless you were impaling a severed head on London Bridge) Also spears were cheap.

[@Dalasoldat]

"I've got a lot of choice of what I thrust at."

[@kendred7984]

Your quirky and genuine personality is perfect for this sort of thing; I'm instantly pulled in. Love your videos, Thanks.

[@rodolphlengrand4715]

Hi lindybeige ! About that topic you might want to search "using the spear in ultra tight phalanx formation", it's from a group which tries to speculate on hoplite fighting (well, pretty obviously with that title) and there are quite interesting points about paring with the spear overarm ! My historical knowledge is clearly nowhere close to yours, and if you ever see this comment I would definitely love to listen / read about your opinion about that ! Thank you for your work, I discovered your channel some weeks ago and there's quite a lot of material I have to discover yet, it's really interesting. And also congratulations, you somehow manage to make long talks really enjoyable (not that sure about the choice of word there, not native speaker) to watch, definitely an excellent historical channel !

[@fboyg91]

I just watched Schola Gladiatoria’s video about this same subject and he brought up a solid point. Using a spear underarm while in a phalanx, or any unit really, becomes troublesome. You don’t have much room behind you unless the bloke behind you doesn’t mind being doink’d in the face and chest each time you retract your spear. Also, you don’t have your midsection available as free real estate when you’re in a phalanx or shield wall since, well, shields are usually covering from shoulder to hips or knees. Underarm seems much more natural and a far better use of the advantages of a spear while not in a formation but what dunce would use a spear when you’re in a mixed melee?

[@mrmoth26]

Overarm would have the same problem. They probably used it underarm in phalanxes too. Underarm has less reach, so it was probably only used in very close quarters.

[@melanoc3tusii205]

So instead of occasionally bumping your spear into the shield of the guy behind you, you're stabbing them in the face repeatedly, far more in fact, because more of your spear is behind you. Battles are not mixed melee, and using an entirely dysfunctional grip that is essentially akin to a sword deprived of all the latter's advantages does not figure into any battle worth the name. Furthermore, there are obvious pieces of evidence for overhand grips not being common, like the strong emphasis on armouring the lower body, and lack of neck and shoulder protection. Were overhand grips actually common for some ungodly reason, this would be directly counterproductive, as soldiers would be spending large sums to strap heavy plates of metal to bodyparts such as the lower leg, which would never be attinged by any spear over the course of a battle, while suicidally leaving their upper body unprotected. If the formation was actually tight enough to disallow an underarmed grip, which is a very strange notion considering that you can hold a spear nearly as high underarmed as overarmed, spears would be useless and immediately supplanted by swords, axes, maces, and knives. It would be like organising massive contingents to march in neat formations towards each other and then start a team-based bar brawl when they met.

[@mattzx003]

3:37 _"I've got a lot of choice in what I thrust at"_ Well I sure don't because I'm ugly

[@qpmkro]

always seemed so logical for me that i didn't even know this was even a debate

[@Smithy0013]

Some medieval artwork shows spears being held overhand

[@oniedahn]

Smithy0013 you'd think overhand was only used for thrwoing spears and javelins

[@Smithy0013]

Nathan Vogelzang Not necessarily if two tight formations got very close to eachother. To use a spear in close quarters combat like that you could hold the spear farther forward. but then if you'r more than one rank thick, the back end of the spear would get caught up in the guys behind you. If you hold it overhand, you can deliver more powerful strikes to people close to you and the back end can be held above the people behind you.

[@oniedahn]

Smithy0013 thats quite smart:o i didnt think of it like that, thx:3!

[@lindybeige]

@PompeusMagnus The sarissa was two-handed, yes, but the shield dangled in front of the left arm on a strap over the back.

[@braikka]

The spear was my favourite weapon when I was reenacting, usually without a shield. It's a very fast manoeuvrable weapon when used 2 handed☺

[@magnusbjarnisk]

And if you train properly with it, you can also become quite versatile, even in very close combat, where shortswords and daggers would rather be used. Just look at Chinese and Japanese legendary spearmen that were really, really good at using them.

[@rumplstiltztinkerstein]

Overarm look more like the way of holding those throwing spears, no?

[@eloujtimereaver4504]

Yeah, most javelins as well as other weapons including even swords were switched to an overarm grip just before being thrown.

[@SK-ir1sk]

Lucas Lemos I dont think an underhanded toss with a spear would indeed do much damage lol

[@Halera-]

And overarm hold looks like a way to hold spear in a duel. If you find yourself in an awkward situation of fighting a duel with a spear.

[@lindybeige]

@Kisk79 If the second rank used overarm, they would not be able to reach any targets. Why is an overarm thrust more effective when the wall is broken?

[@lindybeige]

@olelumpy I made them over a few years, and you are potentially over-dosing in one go. Have regular breaks, stay hydrated, breathe evenly. You can do it.

[@angedejeudi]

It actually never occurred to me to use a spear in the overarm hold. Grew up watching historical dramas full of epic and stunning mixed-weapons matchs and fights, and not once did the spear-wielders use it overarm. In fact, I think the only times I even saw an overarm hold on the spear was when it was intended to be thrown, not exactly its primary use.

[@SnorriTheLlama]

Watch Lord of the Rings Two Towers, when they are defending the gate. Too many men pressed together so overarm is used. Less leverage than two handed underarm, but sometimes or is some formations you just might not have the space.

[@breezeark9154]

"Spears are long, that's their stick." :) I'll see myself out.

[@lindybeige]

@PythonandFelidae Not terribly large, which limits me a bit. I can't get the camera far enough away from me to show certain things.

[@lindybeige]

@ksr1219 Did sarissas taper? I would question the premise, but it might be true. The motive for making the front end lighter is greater, but then why have a thicker rear end, because it's the front end that needs to be strong against enemy chops. Perhaps if the socket of the head were long enough, the second row of pikes would obviate the need of a thick shaft at the front.

[@lindybeige]

Assuming the pole is a decent bit of hard wood, it shouldn't chop though too easily. A quarterstaff in skilled hands is a formidable weapon.

[@AvianSavara]

Lindybeige, this is an amazingly insightful video. And to further your point (see what I did there?), I would point (oh oh twice!) to the "hanging guard" (or 'true guardant fight' according to Silver) featured in several later broadsword techniques. Even though the blade is positioned downwards and often striking down from an elevated starting position (as you've demonstrated with the spear), the user doesn't have to switch hand positions on the hilt to achieve this. I believe this is advantageous for two reasons: control and force. The sword and the spear are both technological extensions of the fighter's arm, and should maintain the same inwards curve to remain efficient. Imagine a person's upper arm, forearm and weapon to be links in a chain. If one of the links didn't swing in the same direction as the others while being whipped, breaking that axis would be a waste of energy.

[@AvianSavara]

Another subsequent point (ha! nonstop!) which could support your claim that the underarm technique is more adapted is the simple importance of footwork in any martial art. Good footwork can make any underarm grip effective, basically working as a force multiplier for the thrust or parry AND as a positioning aid (and reach-extender) for either. All the good footwork in the world could not be of any help to an overarm grip, though.

[@lindybeige]

@malkrow21 Melee, definitely. For throwing they used javelins. A spear might be thrown, but only when its user knows that he will changing to another weapon anyway.

[@lindybeige]

@seoden Not familiar with this one. Is there literary evidence for this? Very difficult to poke someone in the foot overarm.

[@wu1ming9shi]

I think it really depends on the formation you use. If you use the hoplite formation for example you were basically supposed to hit only the guy before you while the ones next to you tries to get the Guy's besides you and so on. So in this formation the upperhand wield would be most beneficial. The other one would be great for later formation uses like the ones they used in the medieval era called the "schiltrom" i believe. It was a formation specifically used as anti cavalry. So using underhand would be greater because you can aim your spear more upwards and a better control over your spear is a plus too.

[@snaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa7320]

A POINT about SPEARS. Get it? Huh? Huh? It's a pun!

[@RooTerKyberian]

SNAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAKE I think you will enjoy his video on arrows also!

[@broshevikbrocialist800]

I think SPEARS need POINTS, notice the "s". How can SpearS have 1 point? That is hard to imagine!

[@kurage_medusa]

all his vids say that

[@lindybeige]

@TheMetalPenguin It used to be called "The Arthurian Society", then it changed its name to the truly awful "The English Settlement Society", and later to the not much better "Northumbrian Early Anglo-Saxon Re-enactments Society". Yes, I hope I made it clear that I was confining my remarks to one-handed spears. Longer spears were used two-handed.

[@lindybeige]

@Jelperman If they did that, and only had one spear each, they would arrive disarmed. I am talking about their use in melee. Homer describes the heroes with two spears - one for throwing and the second for fighting in melee, and this second also gets thrown if a duel with swords is anticipated.

[@Kingrhem.]

4:46 Stannis Baratheon approves

[@blaziiclan8846]

?

[@Kingrhem.]

Blazii Clan Fewer

[@croatianwarmaster7872]

one true king

[@lostandlonely2112]

he should have removed the tip of davos´ tounge ...

[@umar11ism]

philipp seemann he's now correcting Jon Snow on his grammar. Someone who received a formal education from a maester of a great house, corrected by a former smuggler from fleebottom. Both the Princess Shireen and King Stannis would be proud. So shut your trap before you question his grace' decisions.

[@WM_46]

"I've got a lot of choice in what I thrust at." Yeah, just make sure the girl wants it first!

[@lindybeige]

@oldras The pilum was a throwing weapon. Legionaries carried two into battle.

[@lindybeige]

@MrWolfLord So they claimed that the rank nearest the enemy would sacrifice its range? Unlikely - this is the rank for whom reach is most vital.

[@ispaf]

Greek hoplites would have used both the over and underarm hold. If you're in the very front row and charging blind with your head tucked behind your shield which would be raised a bit you would hold the spear in the underarm position in the hopes that it would manage to pierce someone in the charge. If you're behind the man in the front, or two ranks behind the front, you'd need to hold the spear overarm so you can actually see what you're doing and try to stab the enemies who had their heads above their shields.

[@r4fken]

Peter Finn I was going to say a similar thing, checked the comments and here it is. As someone behind a shield wall and in the second or third rank it makes sense to be able to use a plunging motion to take advantage of the leverage you have. Also I imagine you wouldn't want to spear the back of your friends legs too...

[@keats182]

Peter Finn Read A Storm Of Spears, by Christopher Matthew. He goes into great detail about that very topic. In ancient Greece there were two types of pole arms, the spear and the javelin. The javelin was the only weapon held over hand. In the over hand position, it is too difficult to change grips mid-battle or in the confined space of the phalanx. The underhand position is the only position that allows you to attack low, mid and high without large movements that endanger your own men or risk losing your grip on your own spear.

[@r4fken]

keats182 This is very interesting. Greeks, taking pointy sticks and making it an art form.

[@crimsonchaos2866]

+Peter Finn other way around actually. The second row used underarm for maximised reach under the front shields while the front row used overarm even when tucking under their shields.

[@thesilverswordofsparta1289]

+Grandpa Ears Actually the hoplites after the year 600 BCE for sure, maybe before as well, fought with a modified under hand grip. The hoplites did not hold their spears in the same way that most other spearmen held theirs for the simple reason of use in a hoplite phalanx. Hoplites held their COUNTERWEIGHTED spear with the index finger in the front. However, the knuckles of the hand would be facing upwards. The back of the hand would be facing the wielders face. Grab a stick or something and hold it like this to see it. The hoplite held his spear like this because he needed to keep the range that a spear affords and be able to stab effectively while holding a chin to knee 80 pound shield, while not skewering the men behind him in the legs. If you try and hold a large circular object in front of you and hold a spear like lindy first demonstrated, you will bang your hand on the shield every time that you stab and will only be able to stab a few inches. Also you would be forced to take a stance that faces your body towards your attacker which isnt great for stability. Holding it how I mentioned allows you to stand sideways, stab effectively, keep your shield braced and in front of you, and have greater range of motion

[@lindybeige]

Spears are stabby things. As long as a formation was coherent, spears would be favoured. It is easier to fend people off with spears and to help out friends. The two front lines might be in contact for some while before one side started to crumble.

[@lindybeige]

@Nickkraw A swordsman can do this to the spearman opposite him, but as he closes, the spearmen either side of his foe will skewer him. To work, every swordsman on one side would have to close simultaneously.

[@lindybeige]

@doublexz Well, this point is somewhat disputed. I don't rate the swinging damage of a long spear wielded one-handed. Most writers insist that spears were used over-arm, but you seem to agree with me on this point.. With Greek kit, it is not _impossible_ to use a spear overarm. I'm not sure what you mean by 'heavy' with regard to an 8' spear. One can charge with a spear overarm too. Greek hoplites were mainly used to fight other hoplites, not cavalry.

[@HitodamaKyrie]

Who'd use a spear over-handed? Unless you were planning to throw it, or had to reach over a barricade, it seems like an odd thing to do. Holding the spear underhanded brings it closer to your center of mass. Doing that actually allows you to not only thrust must further, but much more powerfully. If you have a spear, and your enemy has a sword/axe/etc, all you basically have to do is walk towards him and you've won the fight. Spears were the "Standard Issue Weaponry" of the classical ages for a reason.

[@demandajable]

Why use it over-hand? Simple Get about 40 people together and get into two formations facing each other. Stand at least 4 ranks deep and as many wide as possible now get 8 ft spears and close with each other. You will see (as I did) that unless you maintain a distance of at least 3 feet between you the under-arm is useless. This is why I stated this may be true in medieval spearmen, but not ancient greek hoplites.

[@SaranSeanAnning]

Under arm grip in a phalanx formation leaves your armpit exposed when you thrust your spear above the shield. Also, under arm grip gives you less control over parrying and counter attacks as there is less mechanical advantage in terms of the pressure from enemy spears when you hold the spear further back. Also, the thrusting force of the overarm grip is significantly higher when combined with a semi-throwing action.

[@esoseven2818]

It's probably both, first rank uses underarm to deter enemy engagement and acts as a deterrent to enemy charges, second rank holds overarm to have much more lethal velocity to the stabs but has shorter reach, they protect the first rank from being too dangerously close to shorter reach enemies, such as spatha, sword wielding enemies. There's many youtube vids proving overarm is the more lethal stance, but has no deterrence to an enemy charge, it would be much more lethal for the second rank to use overarm than the first rank.

[@craigbenz4835]

What he says makes sense, but the bit that confuses me are the horse and foot men depicted in the Bayeux tapestry using spears underhanded. Was this some misunderstanding on the part of the tapestry makers or was it accurate? If it was accurate, then why?

[@Jfernandez83]

@@demandajable You are assuming a lot here. Why would you ever close closer than the range of engagement? People who hold to the overhand seem to not have practical knowledge of melee combat. Just watch a boxing/MMA fight. Do you see people instantly rush each other and hug, or do they stand at arm/leg length and test the waters, looking for an opportunity to close and strike their opponent? the people who do charge do so because that is the specific type of combat they are trained in like wrestling/bjj, and that style is not conducive to mass grouped fighting. If you get jumped by 4 guys in a bar and you try to arm bar one of them, the other 3 will just stomp on you and you'll be ineffective. If 4 strikers rush 4 wrestlers and choose to fight as groups instead of individuals, you would see the strikers working in unison to gang up on individual wrestlers so as to gain a numerical advantage and win the contest. You have to work through the progression. combat starts out of range and moves towards a range of engagement and attempts to stay there. If the goal were as you say, to literally stand shield to shield so that the ranks behind you could thrust forward, then the front rank would never carry a spear, or would drop it very quickly as they'd basically be unarmed if they held onto it and would be effective meat shields. Also, if they did stand shield to shield, you would have seen very specialized weapons that take advantage of this, like pole arms specifically designed for attacking legs under these shield walls, not a standard 8ft spear.

[@PaltryPete]

Maybe today's policeforces should use "spears" to keep violent crowds at a distance. They're using shields already, you know.

[@Squiglypig]

+PaltryPete Non-lethal spears are very ineffective. Using a baton is way better.

[@witchcat5696]

We could slowly turn police into Roman soldiers with black paint on them.

[@LawlessNate]

+Squiglypig Batons can be surprisingly lethal.

[@freshrockpapa-e7799]

+LawlessNate The point is that batons can be used in a non letal way, of course every weapon is lethal, I mean, it's purpose is killing.

[@broshevikbrocialist800]

Non-lethal 1-handed spears are ineffective because: 1. The advantage of spear is its reach and its killing potential at a long reach. 2. Without the killing potential the rioters can just grab the spear and pull it away from the riot police. 2 hands beat 1 hand. 2 handed spears do not have this problem. But actually there are already similar police weapons in use in China: the Anti-riot Fork. s1.ibtimes.com/sites/www.ibtimes.com/files/styles/embed/public/2014/03/03/china-police-attacker-device_0.jpg s1.ibtimes.com/sites/www.ibtimes.com/files/styles/embed/public/2014/03/03/china-riot-fork.jpg Its disadvantage compared to the Shield & Baton is the lack of protection against projectiles and it is difficult to form a defensive line. Plus it is basically useless when you are outnumber by rioters.

[@lindybeige]

@Kisk79 Just watched it. His spear is used almost entirely underarm grip, and I see no butt spike/lizard killer.

[@lindybeige]

@Entheobotany Yes, although that would be against a foe armed with spear and shield, but in a duel, a foe would surely opt for something like sword and shield.

[@Quicksilver_Cookie]

Getting a spear high with an underarm hold is a problem. Example you show at about 7:28 isn't a very reliable grip, your wrist is just warped and weak and you can't use all the force of your shoulder (which is an important part for a good thrusting attack wielding a spear). However, I have to agree that underarm grip was used much more common as it's much more universal. Few advantages that overarm grip provides can probably only be pronounced in some situations.

[@TemenosL]

MrCorvusC Indeed, the wrist is at an awkward angle. Not to mention this, which the supporters of the two lines poking and probing each other for great lengths of time don't seem to see, the full-extension of a high under-arm thrust or shoulder-level thrust does in fact expose most of your arm.

[@Spork888]

Well, this would not be the case with a short spear. Iirc when vikings used long spears, they didn't typically take a shield, it would rather be those with axes and short spears and swords who made the shield wall, while people with spears would be in the second ranks, using their range to thrust above their comrades' heads.

[@TemenosL]

StickyWicket That seems sensible.

[@scook9999]

Janas Aurora This is why The Hoplites gave way to the Roman Legions in history. The short sword became the weapon of choice behind those large shield walls. Very effective. Oh, and for missile weapons, they had 2 javelins they used. It wasn't called a javelin, but some form of it, begins with the letter 'p', don't remember that name though.

[@scook9999]

Sean Cook Just found it, the missile weapon is a pilum.

[@Shigawire]

Although this is 6 years old, and isn't about hoplites per se... I would say that if people watch this video and think this is how hoplite warfare worked, they are unwittingly buying into the "Storm of Spears" theory. And it is not as strong as some would believe. There are some major practical issues not taken into consideration what-so-ever in this video, when it comes to hoplite warfare (but I do think this video was about spearmen in general, so the video isn't wrong on that note): 1)jabbing, or half-throwing the spear overhand. As demonstrated by Thrand - great reach - rapid surprise attacks in any direction - accurate - higher armor piercing due to higher acceleration 2)Holding the spear underhand, you are flanked by a friendly hoplite with a big hoplon shield on your right side - try to stab underarm when you have both of these shields covering either side on top of your spear, and then try to aim in different directions. You can't very easily without breaking your shield wall. 3)Holding the spear underhand, you have friendlies behind you, who you might poke in the crotch with the butt of your spear - which wouldn't require much loss of formation cohesion to achieve.

[@lindybeige]

@habojspade It kept changing its name without asking me. When I joined it was called The Arthurian Society, and when I left I think it was called something amazingly uninspiring like The Early English Settlement Society.

[@vampcinder7237]

Oh the unintended innuendos in this are magnificent.

[@chriscunningham6401]

Did anyone else hear "spears are good because they are long" in an Eric Idle voice? Right!

[@lindybeige]

The lizard killer, if used as a counterweight for overarm use, would make it even easier to knock a spear aside.

[@lindybeige]

Two hands, fairly far apart, usually with your good hand (right for most) forwards.

[@KyleStratacusDrewry]

Very informative with great knowledge on the subject, exactly what earned this subscription!

[@Chronologger]

*Installed Europa Barbarorum 2* *Set up a custom fight as Koinon Hellenon* *See hoplites all use overarm by default* Uninstalled, Rome 2 here I come.

[@mephiston2316]

Chronologger That's very superficial of you, don't you think? Just because a dude in a video claims (with dubious arguments) spears were held underarm you refuse categorically every overarm depiction? Maybe it would be better to get to know why EB2 developers (who incidentally are actual historians, unlike Lindy) decided to implement an overarm grip. Maybe ask a question in their official forum. Search. Discover. Don't be narrow-minded. And by the way, comparing Rome 2's historical accuracy with EB2's is just sad and pathetic...

[@xTheRealKestrelx]

Is rome 2 uninstalled yet?

[@TheAZUniversal]

Reinactment societies should know, that spears longer than 5 ft must be used with two hands, that's a two handed spear mate, it's the only way to keep it under full control at all times. Plus it's alot more effective as a two handed

[@Leopold3131]

TheAZUniversal Agreed. Two handed and underarm. The thrust is fast and explosive. If you try to use a spear that size one handed, you do not have the strength and speed for a proper attack. Any weapon with length is easily parried, so the attack must be FAST. The ease with which long weapons are parried is one of the reasons the gladius was effective: It's short length made it harder to parry. That it lacked reach was not as big a disadvantage when you are protected behind a shield wall.

[@oscaro3977]

@@Leopold3131 wkh

[@lindybeige]

@ksr1219 You get taper for the spear socket, yes. I thought you meant the entire shaft. The sarissa is a pike, which is outside the scope of this video.

[@lindybeige]

@Kisk79 He brings his spear up a lot, but very seldom changes grip.

[@bigbrowntau]

interestingly, naginata is taught with that same cubit length grip on the back hand.

[@DarkestCrusade]

+Browntau hehehe sily tau thinks he knows stuff about mellee ...huehueheuheuhe

[@bigbrowntau]

Tau, no...the player behind them...33 years of melee combat re-enactment in one form or another.

[@NeonsStyleHD]

"If all your friends are fat, there are no see-saws; only catapults" - Demitri Martin hahahhaa lol

[@woodennickel7330]

NeonsStyle if you're skinny like me the rule is never to get on one...ever

[@lindybeige]

@LucanJacups The sarissa was held in two hands, and you didn't fence with it, you just marched forward with it in a dense formation and made the occasional thrust.

[@lindybeige]

@DazzaBo Sorry about that. I do prefer to keep them under five minutes.

[@caseykromhout5766]

You're so punny Lindybeige. :)

[@rynerlute7082]

Please do a review/ rant on the movie "Noah" its set in the stone/ copper age but people have medieval swords, war hammer steal armor, welding masks and sheet metal

[@shanephillips617]

not to mention it's about a 600 year old man building an impossibly big boat and convincing polar bears, kangaroos and penguins to cross the globe and board a ship over a flood that never happened.....but they got the weapons wrong! LOL

[@Fastwinstondoom]

Been watching these weapon vids of yours all afternoon, love 'em!

[@smokerxluffy]

Considering how the body works, it makes sense to go underhand. An overhand grip makes use of the triceps and deltoids and little else or you'll be overextending yourself, whereas with an underhand grip you've got the full body to work with, like you do with sword thrusts and punches. Also, keeping the arm above the heart forces your heart to pump harder and tires you out faster. Likewise, when holding the spear up in overarm, it's the forearm doing all the work, whereas with the underarm you can couch it like a lance or rest the butt against your elbow. Edit: After looking more into it, I've changed my mind. Overhand seems better, after all.

[@MarcLombart]

"A point about spears." I saw what you did there. Well done.

[@omgzitsmilk]

Ok well I'm currently doing research into phalanx warfare for a book and to be honest there isnt info like you would find for longsword in Germany. It is hypothesized that they used overarm to get over the shields and strike the throat and shoulder since the shield is used for frontal assault and to reinforce the man in front. Its confusing!

[@melanoc3tusii205]

That isn't the case, as can be seen from how they didn't armour those areas, but instead the lower torso and legs.

[@petros_adamopoulos]

Makes me think... doing a demonstration of spear wielding indoors vs outdoor is like wielding a spear overarm vs underarm.

[@pintomarko]

A fine, entertaining and educational series of videos, good job man.

[@ianryan5727]

I am a tad confused, are we talking Normandy spears or Britney Spears :)

[@LOVEMUFFIN_official]

Technically I think we’re discussing Hoplite Spears (but sadly there aren’t any good pop-culture references for those)...

[@ianryan5727]

@@LOVEMUFFIN_official :)

[@GamePhysics]

Unless you're throwing it. Then you would use an overarm throw.

[@ScienceDiscoverer]

+GamePhysics yea, its best for throwing indeed. But there is special spears for throwing, you generally don't want to throw your main spear away.

[@GamePhysics]

ScienceDiscoverer Of course.

[@PopTartNeko]

+ScienceDiscoverer But then I do not have 2 spears to dual wield!

[@crimsonchaos2866]

+ScienceDiscoverer You might if the battle breaks through the phalanx and turns into every man for himself. Romans threw their pila before the battle and used their swords in formation.

[@0249er]

+Crimson Chaos interesting you say that because the pila was not a spear but rather a javelin and would be totally useless as a spear because it was designed for its head to break off at the point of impact so the enemy couldn't throw it back. Also i know the phalanx is a military formation and all sorts of spears where used short ones all the way to one with axes fitted to the end however the main spear typically used by soldiers in a phalanx where the sarissa and they where about 18 feet long so it was next to impossible to throw those

[@lindybeige]

@TOMHYLE88 It may be that women kill with stabs more often because when a woman uses a knife, her intention is usually to kill, whereas when a man uses one, his intention is to dominate, injure, and defend himself. Women attack with knives far less often.

[@lindybeige]

@strawmanGR If they could get the enemy to change to fighting the inferior way at the same time, then this would be possible, but if the enemy insisted on being awkward about it, then I doubt it.

[@TheSwedishAssassin]

I'm gonna debate with the idea that the shield may have been used as a point of rest, which would make over-arm far easier as well as adjusting the spear's distance. Being able to stab down seems to give an advantage from my experience on leverage.

[@juliandunn8412]

Attack or parry below with an overarm approach. It's practically nonviable.

[@demomanchaos]

That idea doesn't work due to the grip and the way the hand is. Sure, it works to an extent if you just rest it there. The moment you try to move it is when things break down. The moment you try and strike, your spear nosedives. You also have a very limited range of motion, as your arm cannot go past your shield and your shield cannot get more than elbow's reach away from you. That means you have no power (you can't really put your hips into it), no accuracy, no control, and no use in the battle line.

[@TheSwedishAssassin]

I see your point. I wasn't thinking about the leverage issues with the arm. My mistake.

[@demomanchaos]

TheSwedishAssassin Not a lot of people take note of the hand and wrist's mechanics when they talk about overarm spear grip. Due to the wrist only bending a bit upwards, you lose a LOT of reach compared to gripping the same spot in the underarm grip. The lack of a thumb on both sides also goes against the overarm grip, as the weight rests on the open portion of the hand. There are a lot of little things that add up. If you have any further questions, just ask and I'll answer of help find someone who can answer them.

[@TheSwedishAssassin]

Thanks!

[@hirbini]

think about this in a dirty way while watching it xDxD

[@lindybeige]

@Tommy1991yan I think I did mention that didn't I? Perhaps I say that in a different vid.

[@lindybeige]

@Kisk79 When I first wrote up my spear theory on the net over ten years ago, I was firmly criticised by the main on-line writers on the topic. Now they are criticising me for not going far enough, and saying that I need to update my material! How the world turns...

[@OrkarIsberEstar]

Problems - underarm aint valid in formation as you lack space to wield it effectively while overarm - you can have the spears end high up in the air endangering none of your friends. Overarm attacks from above the shield (yours and enemies) which makes it more likely to hit a weak spot while underarm will in most cases attack the shields or greaves and wont do damage. Also overarm is a position ready for throwing the spear at any given time which is quite an advantage and usually the spear is not the spearmans only weapon and quite a lot of tribes today or armies back in time threw their spears and then charged immediately after

[@OrkarIsberEstar]

1. You already answered yourself - u can use underarm as long as you are not in any formation - which was the basic purpose of wielding spear and shield in the first place may it be the greek phalanx, the roman turtoise, the germanic shieldwall or medieval pike formations - formation was THE main use of spears. Once the formation broke or in duells the weapons used were swords or axes. So we can argue that overarm was used primarely througout history and is also shown quite often in historical artwork. 2. Hitting greaves to klnock someone off balance? with a SPEAR? Dude, the thrust would glance off with no effect. First the feet have all the weight on them . you cant just push them away, also the thrust will glance off the greaves...if you want to knock someone off balance you need to hit them as far ABOVE the center of gravity as possible which usually is the head ir breast or shoulder - THAT would work but you cant do it with underarm. 3. You throw your spear to either break the enemy formation, force them to drop their shield or if you are pretty sure to land a fatal blow. or just to buy enough time to get into grappling range with a short weapon. This was also a very common tactic by the way. And in duells exactly that was done - throwing your spear at the enemy to surprise him with a follow up attack - if the spear is held overarm you can immediately throw it at point blank range and whil your enemy is distracted get your short weapon and finisht he guy. 4. IF the enemy succeeds in getting past your spear you would either retract it so you basicly make the spear into a short range weapon OR you step back to get reach advantage once again - because IF the enemy is apst your spearhead you dont have enough time to draw another weapon...dropping the spear would be the most idiotic thing you can do as your opponent would kill you while you are unarmed 5. have you ever done that? because 1) its helf over your shoulder not over your head thats why its called overarm not overhead 2) it actually increases your options as you can throw or stab with it and from leg to head 3) its more comfortable holding than underarm as the point of balance is in your hand and 4) its quicker to move. The disadvantage is the lesser reach and that you cant parry as well with it as its easier to knock the spear aside

[@OrkarIsberEstar]

***** ever stood in a shieldwall? if the shields aint interlinked the formation is weak and can esily be destroyed - its enough to charge as you cant withstand this force - done. And gaps allow missiles to pass through or other weapons...you stand tight in formations for security. He was WRONG about the doubled bitted axe thing? he said they didnt exist and yet there are hundreds of museum pieces that are double bitted in various cultures? and its not needless weight its for balance and attacking without having to change the direction. He was actually proven wrong in 2 video responses. The spike can also be placed on top and often is and a hammer on the other side has the very same weight as a second axe head. I have not seen a felling axe with 2 blades and i grew up with a step father who was a lumberjack...ok they do exist but are barely used because they heightend the risk of injury and make wood splitting more difficult - yes there is a plus too but there aint too much problem sharpening your axe tree after tree and that should do the trick - you need to sharpen 2 headed axes twice so it does not really safe work 5. That is what i mean - you take examples that you experienced and generalise them instead of asking yourself what other reasons could have lead to these events. Thats like me saying that the biggest assholes on earth are social workers just because i know one who is...

[@peridoodle2644]

Orkar Isber 1. Ever used that brain of yours? Give it a try, it works wonders. The formation is no weaker from having gaps of a few inched in between each man. because the density of the formation is barely affected by a difference of a few inches, and it allows you to actually have a little bit of room to do things, instead of be stuck in a human sandwich. And I already said that in a close melee, there wouldn't be people firing arrows, because they could easily end up hitting their own men! And if it goes in between the shields, you know what happens? it hits the ground, because they stand in lines in the formation, and they each have their own shields to protect themselves. 2. I really hope you're trolling, because I had honestly hoped nobody was that stupid... watch the video about double bitted axes again. All the way through, and pay attention. He SAYS that there where double bitted felling and ceremonial axes and he even shows some pictures of some examples you moron! 3. You are an idiot.. a class A idiot... Yes, the spike can be placed on the top, but that would be used like a spear, not with a swinging motion like an axe and would not be used to pierce heavy armor. And NO war axe with a hammer on it that I have ever seen has a hammer that weighs more than or even close too the axe blade. Look up some examples, they are consistently smaller than the axe head. And even if it was just as heavy, it would give you a greater variety of strikes you could do, and give you an armor crushing capability. A second blade would just make your axe heavier and slower, without any added capability, and the convenience of not having to change direction would be majorly offset by the slower, heavier axe. 4 and 5. Sweet Jesus Athiest Christ... You make a point about how one experience doesn't make something true, and then you say that double bitted felling axes are uncommon just because you don't have any experiences with them! You just contradicted yourself so beautifully! I love it, it's like I'm arguing with a three year old. Also, don't you think some of the points you made against double bitted felling axes would also apply to double bitted war axes? And your point about my experience with the overarm vs underarm is pointless because it wasn't like saying oh that one guys an asshole so all people like him must be assholes. This was an experiment to see what would happen with people with spear experience fought underarm vs overarm, and the results showed that underarm has a major advantage over overarm. It's not some stereotyped person I'm making judgments about, it's the results of an experiment showing which one has a major advantage.

[@helios4753]

Just gonna say it. I love your display picture!!

[@helios4753]

Orkars's one that is.

[@Jesses001]

The only reason you would hold a spear up like that would be if you plan on throwing it. That is not the type of spear combat you are talking about. I do not think there is much argument about overhand and underhand with this type of spear combat.

[@lindybeige]

@Treifla My mother knits many of them, others are from 'shops'.

[@orlock20]

Egyptian art (statue) the guy has it overhand and Roman art (coin) has the spear underhand. A painting shows the Normans painting holding the spears overhand (although the painter may not have ever witnessed a battle). The Greeks, from paintings, held it underhand. Everyone held it mid point. In India, it looks like the shield was not used and it was used as a two handed thrusting weapon. In modern Africa it's held both over hand and under hand depending on the tribe.

[@DualFrodo]

Ha! Point. I get it.

[@jeehwanlee]

Hellenic hoplites used the spear overarm

[@MasterOfCydonia]

No they didn't, they used an underarm style of combat. They would thrust in an overarm fashion like he showed but they definitely used an underarm grip.

[@TemenosL]

Xanadu-King You cannot say this with certainty. It's ignorant, and un-scholarly in the extreme. There are so many more possibilities. But, seeing as you and the high under-arm hordes out there who pander to lindy as though he's the sole voice of reason out there have given you five thumbs up, it's pointless to argue it.

[@Oxnate]

I'm loving all your videos. Funny and informative. Subscribed.

[@lindybeige]

@AnthonyReigns Yes.

[@martinconway8174]

A sticks schtick

[@davidvanderlaan7074]

Took an spear to the knee

[@lindybeige]

@Treifla I agree.

[@lindybeige]

@TOMHYLE88 We overlapped shields without problem, and used underarm. We tended not to, though, because it was usually far more effective to spread out a bit.

[@Langharig_Tuig]

Let's settle it once and for all: Underhand for dueling, most of the time Overhand for the battlefield (formations), always Why not always underhand for duels? If you have any side arm, a sword or something, overhand fighting is prefered in duels. You have a major advantage of threatening to throw the spear. You can throw the spear and switch weapons. Also, the evidence backs up the fact that overhand was used more, Greek amphoras and medieval paintings all depict an overhand use

[@chefcarson8893]

I hate my fucking life.

[@therealr0bert]

ChefCarson Just a tip. Sometimes it feels like there's no point in living. You've really got to thrust yourself in to the world and find something enjoyable. Yeah the world tends to try to give people the shaft, but in this amazing world we can do anything. Hell we don't even need wings to fly anymore. Just throw yourself out there. Take charge and spearhead your own life. Isn't that just dandy, every sentence has a spear pun, this one included, even if it takes a while to get to the point.

[@NeonsStyleHD]

ChefCarson very simple thing. Allowing yourself to think negatively about yourself and your life has but one end, misery and eventual death. It's inevitable. To allow that thinking you drive yourself deeper and deeper into depression until there is only one way out. Death. However, if you accept that, then the answer is obvious, to tell urself to cancel all negative thoughts as they arise, and turn them into positive thoughts. Eventually you find yourself out of the hole you were in, and now your mental landscape is full of positive thoughts and a positive outlook. How do you make that change? Time and alot of thinking is one way, but much easier way is to go and see a psychologist and have him hypnotise you, and teach you how to use it yourself. You will find those issues you had will dissolve away in a couple of months, and the more time goes on, the happier n happier you will fee.

[@purpleanex]

NeonsStyle Of course death is inevitable.

[@Duchess_Van_Hoof]

ChefCarson When the emotions are worst, find a way to distract yourself until the pass for the moment. When you feel creativity and want to do something, do it. Whatever small thing it is. Take it small steps. Eventually it reachers critical mass and you can turn it around.

[@anubseran4774]

+purpleanex pfft.. mortals..

[@lindybeige]

@thelleht It would make it even heavier and even easier to knock aside.

[@Roriniho]

Very pleased about the recent influx of new videos! Keep them coming!

[@AV-dr1rg]

"Hi, I'm Lindybeige. Historical sources as well as pictorial evidence created by actual veterans and witnesses of hoplite warfare show that spears were mostly used overhead in a shoving match but I disagree because my experience as a weekend reenactor with fake weapons contradicts that"

[@mrmoth26]

There was no shoving match (most likely) and they weren't used overarm. Art isn't evidence. Medieval art showed people cutting through helmets with swords, which is impossible. Try again

[@mrmoth26]

There is no evidence for a shoving match or the overarm grip. Both probably didn't happen (99% sure that both are BS).

[@AV-dr1rg]

@@mrmoth26 I've replied to you on the other comment. You're comparing apples with oranges and discarding a wealth of historical evidence. Just like Lindybeige is doing, but you don't have to make his mistakes as well.

[@lindybeige]

@shoopoop21 Lift up your elbow and thrust. If you go overarm, you have to shorten the spear so much that you can't reach any targets.

[@lindybeige]

Not just that. Feet are a much more convenient unit of measurement.

[@zavvax]

You raise some great points. I didn't think of the under arm technique.