Spider Ball Pythons: The IHS, Empiricism, & Rebuttals

[@JessicasAnimalFriends]

As someone with reptiles that have neurological issues linked to their morphs (enigma leopard geckos, for example), I 100 percent agree with the IHS ban. I also wish they were not bred, but that’s a whole other battle .

[@epicwolf3]

I think you did a great job presenting your side of the argument or at least your viewpoints in a respectful way. As someone who has done research that is peer reviewed, I appreciate you bringing those resources up and pointing out that there hasn't been a lot of research done that backs up the other side of the argument. It would be a great topic for a non-biased researcher to take on.

[@EmmaLynneSampson]

I really enjoyed this video. It was very well put together and you can tell that you put a lot of effort into researching the topic before speaking on it which is always a great thing to do. you had a lot of really good information in this video. I definitely learned new things from this and i hope others can learn as well.

[@RadiantReptilia]

I am glad you enjoyed it and learned! I feel much better about this one than the last. It is just so much more synergized and researched.

[@incineroar9933]

Honestly? I don't think spiders look particularly interesting or pretty. But even if I liked the looks, it's just not worth hurting a species you love.

[@HHLucifer666]

Incineroar ok but what about genetics research? Would you breed spider ball pythons if you knew what could be done with the knowledge that could be gained from breeding that particular morph?

[@trinity-ul2es]

Keep_It_Cotoure but that’s not why ppl are breeding them. They’re doing it for the money

[@TheTwistedTraceur]

loved the video, definitly gonna go research, you encouraged or rather inspired me. but yeah thanks for the second video on this. i love the ball python shots while talking over it

[@moose5086]

Good points. The spider gene has some serious neurological issues and there isn't any reason to breed them other that for personal gain, which is selfish. Especially because the quality of life is lower in spiders. Why would you put an animal through a life of suffering like that when it can be avoided!

[@RadiantReptilia]

Agreed. Theres not driving need to perpetuate these genes.

[@lsuhillary]

Soooo glad you shared this paper. I post it anytime the spider conversation come up. They need to repeat it with a larger sample size, but definitely is a great indicator of the empirical issues that are occurring with the spider gene.

[@Fairytale30299]

Yes finally someone with a scientifical explanation! Thank you! Very helpful and interesting! 🙌🏻

[@RadiantReptilia]

Glad you appreciate it! I hope I brought something new to the discussion!

[@sixisok]

I love the way you have presented your information! It would be really cool if the wobble could somehow be removed, but until then there’s no way I would buy one. It honestly kills me because I also keep tarantulas and a morph called spider would be perfect.

[@rebeccaanderson8257]

The one dislike is Brian..lol

[@amarie9288]

You should be proud of this video, Ethan. Well thought out, well delivered. I wish i had friends like you and alex in high school.

[@RadiantReptilia]

Hey thanks, glad you appreciated it!

[@chrisalan5610]

"That's a peer reviewed scientific journal~" and ya got JOURNALED

[@jeremylong6229]

This video was much better presented than your last one on the subject in my opinion. So good job on that

[@RadiantReptilia]

I agree! I feel that my first video was a little unorganized, poorly scripted, my ideas were badly explained, and the editing was crap. It was my first time trying that style of video, and now that I have a little experience under my belt, I felt much more confident making this video, and feel like I executed tone and feeling much better.

[@Starfish_Duder]

The Spider gene and other head wobble genes very much reminds me of cerebellar hypoplasia, AKA CH or "Wobbly Cat Syndrome", that can be found in cats as well as dogs. I mainly know it from working in autoclave (and recovery) for a feral cat spay and neuter clinic. Cerebellar hypoplasia is a developmental condition in which the cerebellum of the brain fails to develop properly, that's the portion of the brain that controls fine motor skills, balance and coordination. Cerebellar hypoplasia isn't painful for the cat, and it really depends on the cat. Some cats barely have a wobble at all, where others have such a debilitating wobble that they cannot even stand nor use the bathroom by themselves (incontinence). Lemme say it like this; let's say there's a breed of cat that has such nice patterning it almost looks like some exotic animal, but the gene that is bred to make that animal, has the same gene for cerebellar hypoplasia on the same chromosome. Should we still breed and sell that animal despite the possibility of a lower quality of life?

[@jpucci72]

What breed is it?

[@Starfish_Duder]

@@jpucci72 I'm giving an example, there isn't a breed that has CH.

[@macetoday274]

Can you make a video of all the morphs that have issues and what the issues are? I think it would be very interesting. Love your channel btw :)

[@sarapocorn]

I fell in love with a little spinner fella & only found out about the spider wobble after (it‘s gonna be my first snake) - now I‘ve changed my mind and am not gonna buy it, thank you very much for contributing to my education!

[@lsuhillary]

Sara K GREAT! So happy you took the time to educate yourself, took in the arguments and made your own decision. (I think it is the correct one😬) Whenever I post about my views on spiders this is all I want people to do. There are soo many beautiful snakes out there.

[@sarapocorn]

oh hi, I‘m back! In the meantime I got a hog island boa constrictor called Darwin & I couldn‘t be happier.

[@hyfeb13]

A very well edited and well researched episode!

[@mattburch9873]

Good video. You make excellent points and I agree wholeheartedly. The welfare of our snakes should be so important.

[@matjames4981]

Wow, I personally believe that spider BP's should not be banned in any shape or form like Brian but your video definitely shed some light on why they may not be bred after all I have watched a lot of these spider BP rants (that are all targeting brian) and I've still always sided with my man Brian but how you discuss it from a scientific stand point made me think on it a little more so rn im definitely in between I'll be doing more research on it now. Awesome vid.👍

[@RadiantReptilia]

Reading this comment makes me happy! I was hoping this video would be less polarizing and more thought stimulating. Even if people disagree with me, I want them to at least clearly consider my side. And to those that would agree with me, again, I fully suggest you go look at other points of view.

[@kolesaurusdickinsoni364]

You bring up a lot of good points about spiders that other people leave out. I personally advocate against the spider gene and any others that would cause the quality of live for a captive animal to go down. I currently don't keep any ball pythons but I'm thinking about getting one because they are just so fascinating. Would you recommend them as an entry-level snake? Keep up the great work!

[@RadiantReptilia]

Hey glad you liked the video! I would recommend them as a beginner into pythons and boas, but not your first snake if you are relatively unconfident. A corn or king may be a better beginner snake, just because they are so much simpler in terms of feeding pickiness and humidity requirements.

[@kolesaurusdickinsoni364]

Thanks for the advice, I've also heard that rosy boas are pretty good for beginners. What are your thoughts?

[@RadiantReptilia]

I have also heard that, but have not worked with them personally, so I do not know.

[@pastelroo7773]

I spoke to a breeder who was like, "oh but non spiders can have the wobble too" Like yes, they can, but it is much more of an issue in the spider morph

[@jessicacalabrese7369]

Great video! I agree on the ban of spiders and I hope it will happen one day.

[@HHLucifer666]

The one reason I’d say breeding spider genes is ok, is for genetic research. Specifically, research on the head wobble and hopefully getting the wobble removed from all spider ball pythons on the market. I’m sure something like this would cost millions of dollars and take years to complete but in the long run I feel like this solution would be the best for everyone

[@TheSparrowBatman]

I agree Ball Python morphs like spiders and other genes with these issues need go be more regulated or banned, because not only is it unfair to the snakes, but it's unfair to the owners; no matter if you are an amuetar or an expert keeper. I've been staying away from any gene that had these issues as a new Ball Python mom. It'd stress me out and I would feel bad for the animal plus I supported this continuation of careless breeding. It's just not okay. Hopefully we get studies done for these animals, because until then I'm avoiding these genes until we have research and fixes to these genes. This goes for kink defects as well with some of these morphs too.

[@peachimugi]

You misspelled empiricism in your thumbnail fam. There's also some stuff I don't agree with in this video, but KZbin comments aren't the place for a discussion. 10/10 editing

[@RadiantReptilia]

Oh crap. Thank you so much for the heads up! I really appreciate it.

[@RadiantReptilia]

Just fixed it.

[@willowOwO]

wh,. youtube comments arent the place for a discussion?? isnt that literally the point of youtube comments?? to discuss the video??

[@peachimugi]

Because most of the people here are fans, not keepers. Not a point in making any argument in front of an audience that won't listen :-) There's a lot of controversy on this topic, and it would take an article worth of writing to address every point made in this video (not that I disagree with all of them, but some just aren't 100% accurate) It is a well made video, regardless of content.

[@jaydenpproductions7721]

Great video!!

[@homiethefish]

Great video, we need more people like you on the internet. Good old fashioned civil discourse.

[@melissaleigh9119]

Humans are good with slippery slopes. We build stairs.

[@meganelavoie-mercier3765]

Where do you catch all your snake? Good video!

[@AstaeroidYasper]

I love this video.

[@llamalady]

Can you talk about issues with other morphs too? Theres not enough information about this online and I dont wanna support the breeding of animals that have issues/ a lesser quality of life. If it werent for you and goherping I probably wouldve bought a spider morph unknowingly, what other morphs should I look out for?

[@xMJJMoonwalker]

www.owalreptiles.com/issues.php Someone pointed me to this, you might find it helpful!

[@goldfishghosts1919]

Snake Jesus is back

[@tangerine2530]

good job, i like the videos

[@deniseatkins9407]

Just downloaded the paper I am studying psychology so understand where this argument is coming from

[@BenjaminsExotics]

Hey Amazing Animal Adventures. There is nothing wrong with you or any one having a different opinion, but their are multiple problems with the message you and other KZbinrs are trying to spread. Firstly, you talk about the fact that there is "disinformation" around the Spider gene, and if you are talking about breeders not informing their customers then I agree, as it is something that buyers need to be informed about. But in terms of disinformation around the traits of the gene itself, videos like this and others are sending untrue statements and facts to new keepers all around the internet. If you look at the clips from many KZbinr's videos who believe we need to ban Spider Ball Pythons, including yourself, you are constantly showing clips of Spider Ball Pythons who have SEVERE neurological defects, which is not an accurate representation of how the majority of Spider Ball Pythons act. I have personally held and observed hundreds of different Ball Pythons with the Spider gene, and I have not once seen one as bad as are shown in your videos. I'm not saying this because I don't believe it happens, but it is extremely rare. If you want to give an accurate statement or assessment of a specific gene, I encourage you to take a look at multiple different Ball Pythons (not just 2 or 3) who have the Spider Gene, and observe how they act, and if their quality of life is lacking in the slightest bit. I would also like to point out that many of the clips that have been shown of severe examples of the Spider Ball Python wobble are from snakes that have been rescues, and who knows what type of mistreatment and abuse led them to be the way they are. Your other video also states that Spider Ball Pythons cannot flip themselves over when upside down, which couldn't be further from the truth. I don't know if you realize it, but videos like these can and do have huge effects on new or aspiring keepers. I can't tell you how many comment, questions, and emails I have seen and received asking how often my Spiders miss their food, if they bang their faces up from missing, if they can flip themselves upright, how often they star gaze, or if I have ever had one of my Spiders try to eat itself. There is nothing wrong with saying that worse case scenario you could produce a Spider Ball Python with these problems, but leaving out the fact that all of these are extremely rare is a huge example of disinformation coming from these types of videos. I hope you understand what I am saying, and take this in a constructive manner, -Benjamin of Benjamin's Exotics

[@sakurascales9091]

Hey dude. I've been wanting to make a video on this topic for a while, particularly about the article you mention. I think you should watch the last bit of the video I just made on this - it's a completely unreliable & bias study that ruled itself inconclusive. I do appreciate that it raises awareness for the need to do more actual research, but a survey of humans tells us nothing about how these animals function.

[@laurensolinger6998]

I was someone who chose to get a spider even then I knew what the potential issues were. Reason being that I won’t be breeding. I would prefer he’s with me rather than someone who may breed him.

[@RadiantReptilia]

I genuinely appreciate the sentiment, but the issue there is that that will incentivize the breeder to produce more, because as demand increases, so does supply.

[@daydreamersdmmiller3064]

Nice job trying to explain this beyond antidotical terms. Your video is done in a mature, well-organized manner, and states your opinion. However, I would like to point out some issues with the research article you pointed out. First, yes it is peer reviewed a good job but I disagree with the assumption that it is not biased. However, I commend your thought process but the paper has many design flaws. The first problem comes when the authors admit they set out to conduct a quantitative study but did not have enough participation. With a lack of participation, the changed to the qualitative method and this creates a work with issues. Next, we do not know the status of the breeders if they are current spider producers or did so in the past. Furthermore, there is a flaw with a random survey sample. Last, on the thing we should always look for in a quality article is a discussion of the limitations. The listed article left this part out so the reader is unaware if the researcher even recognized the limitations. I do not point the problems with this article out to bust your bubble. (But you look quite a bit younger). I just want to help you add other ways to read the research. From your comments, it sounds like you work hard to incorporate these skills into your life. Have a great day! I hope one of you young people would devote time to becoming involved with this idea from a research stance and give back to the community but we need to wait for someone to take the time to truly research the issue before banning a gene. Have a nice day and it is a good thing that you and Alex at least are talking about the spider gene so consumers can make better choices.

[@allpowerfulmitochondria759]

Brian had a video I came across where he was like crying, or at least pretending to over people in the reptile community bashing him and idk how to feel about it. Like he’s not the spawn of Satan, but he’s not an innocent guy. Like he breeds Enigmas and Spiderballs even though he KNOWS they have a lot of issues. It kind of makes it more fucked up in a way. It upsets me enough that I don’t buy from him.

[@RadiantReptilia]

Where did he post the video? This is the second time I've seen it mentioned, but I can't find it on his KZbin.

[@jpucci72]

Brian is a breeder, and it seems like he cares more about money and views than his animals

[@jaydenpproductions7721]

I just got a pac man frog do you have any tips?

[@pamp5180]

I agree, spiders and womas (plus all the others that have it) shouldn't be bred anymore because of the neurological problems they have. I got my first bp a few months ago and I wasn't aware wobble was a thing that affected snakes, the one I got is a pastel woma ball python and while I love him to bits it always breaks my heart when he presents his wobble by spinning around or corkscrewing. It's not so bad that he can't eat or live a relatively normal life but it's still sad to see him wobble from the breeder's decisions. If anything I would've liked for the breeder to disclose the wobble the snake I was buying had then maybe I could have made a more informed decision, alas that's too much to ask I guess. I'm glad I'm educated now though and for my next ball python I'll make sure to stay away from genes with proven issues like wobble. Thank you for the informative video! I'll share it with my snake enthusiast friends! Cheers!

[@littlelethallollipop]

hey just your local ginger here and blue eyes aren't linked with red hair they are actually the least common eye color with red hair

[@franciscoandrade9180]

Lol I like how you keep use Brian's video to defend your point of view you should check out nerds video about it and how when he first got the spider gene from Africa it didn't have a wobble just a head tilt the wobble was something that came after

[@AmbiCahira]

"Found in the wild" it very well could have been pet release. Your spider is so insanely beautiful but it genuinely breaks my heart when animals can't do their natural behaviors. The snake clip that has a wide open mouth and stuff keeps looking like a super severe headache to me, like a migraine so I can't help thinking that maybe some spiders suffer headaches from this. Yes we see affected balance but I feel like pain is not a far stretch of possibility. It truly breaks my heart. If there is a restriction I wish that like for example you needed a vet checkup where the exotic vets could score severity of wobble and that every spider sold was sold with this vet checkup paper just like some animals has to be sold with proof of vaccination. On top of that I wish the score would affect sale price simply so that breeders would earn less money on breeding the ones that are severe or cast severe babies because it would be a financial loss to do so. Then people can have the freedom to choose to breed severe cases if they want to and just not get profit just like the normal colored doesn't get much profit. If your passion would be to breed and sell bad ones... it's a choice but people that breed for profit would be forced to put more effort into pairings and create the lowest score possible. It would be a type of control that would be a motivator to get better spiders into the pet market if they absolutely must. In English Bulldogg the male often can't really mate with the female due to the anatomy so they need to inseminate and then the heads of the puppies are too big for her hips and birth canal so just about every English Bulldogg litter was a C section for the safety of the mother dog and while I like the breed I absolutely hate that they don't make efforts to make the breed possible to mate and whelp on their own again so I can understand why lovers of this morph wants to preserve them and not lose them forever. But needing a vet checkup and a score I think could help aim towards better health. Maybe even making a registry of parents and bloodline public.. now before you kill me hear me out. In Europe there's public registry websites for mental testing and health testing in dogs such as the degree/score of hip dysplasia for example and you can research the entire family line to see what your breeder thinks is okay to breed. A and B are healthy hips, C is mild dysplasia D is quite a lot of it and E you basically lack a hip socket anymore and lots of breeders breed C and sometimes D hips, with this type registry you can pick what breeder you want to support in spiders if this was a thing. If we pretend that the wobble would have the same A to E score and E would be worst severity and A would be perfectly healthy and normal (in case that would ever happen) then one would be able to research "this breeder thinks breeding D snakes is okay" and either go with or against your personal preference. I know people would protest the shit out of it because it would force them to be accountable AND have every snake scored by a vet but for a ethical future I think it would be smart. Especially if heavily affected would have to be deducted in sale price, with or without records but with records straight off the exotic vet results the papers can't be lost or forged. It would make it necessary to have exotic vets further educated but yeah.. I think it would set some well needed guidelines.

[@joshuanewbeck6226]

Huh nevermind i guess my snake does turn back over slowler than a normal. Oh well shes a good eater at least.

[@DizzleMCSTANG88]

I read the study and I still dont believe it is worth banning the spider. Even the study said more research is needed.

[@BenjaminsExotics]

@DizzleMCSTANG88, agreed! 99.9% of Spider Ball Pythons aren't born with any serious problems like shown in this video and others, and there is no evidence at all that shows that the average Spider Ball Python is suffering in anyway what so ever. They eat, shed, and breed great. All things a "suffering" Ball Python would not be able to do.

[@TheTwistedTraceur]

midnight here....hi btw did not die of led poisoning

[@RadiantReptilia]

I love my pliers.

[@benwerner8997]

Smash the spider Well don’t hurt the snake or the bug Just get rid of the morph

[@mairstunna8046]

So I heard ALEX confessed his love for you and you got weirded out and ended the friendship 😞 don’t do that. Simply tell him your incapable of returning the same feelings and put some boundaries on the friendship. But don’t disown him. You guys are to close for that.

[@RadiantReptilia]

No, we are through. I will probably never see him again.

[@orangie8942]

No you dont and yes i did. Youre little pdf is a paper written by a student of cambridge under that professor as an essay. Look: "A total of 100 breeders were contacted, with 13 responses received. All respondents were aware of the spider wobble condition. Of them, 8 respondents commented on the clinical signs associated with the syndrome, describing side-to￾side head tremors (5), incoordination (4), erratic corkscrewing of the head and neck (4), inhibited righting reflex (3), torticollis (2), poor muscle tone (1), and loose grip with the tail (1)." That is a direct quote.doing a 100 person survey is not science, not even remotely close. especially when only 13 reply back and are a part of it.. and only 8 stated that they even acknowledge it. I can quote the rest of the section but its all to the contrary of you and your little friend. That isnt "scholarly"...its just a 6 year old outdated essay..

[@orangie8942]

So really your validity comes from 8 people 6 years ago

[@RadiantReptilia]

See that's the beauty of peer reviewed papers. It doesn't matter if you don't think its valid, because enough PhD's thought it was. Unless there are other articles refuting this, this piece of evidence remains a valid player in this debate. As far as it being 6 years old, who the crap cares? That is barely a wink in the grand scheme of things, and again, I have yet to be shown empirical. evidence contradicting it.

[@orangie8942]

@@RadiantReptilia wow. I honestly liked your way of giving info over whatever his name is, you were less one sided and made sense.. i guess not anymore. Youre just defending your useless info now. You know its more for the viewers and not the real truth. It stated how many views there was in that specific paper.. 15 out of 100. Only eight spoke up. Period.

[@orangie8942]

@@RadiantReptilia or empirical evidence for it.. so mind your own and stop these fesr mongering videos telling people what they should or shouldnt do

[@RadiantReptilia]

Yes, of course I make videos for views. Why else would I make videos? So I can watch them myself? No, I make videos for other people to watch them. So yes I am going to pick hot and popular topics to make my videos into. That is not inherently wrong. You can disagree with the point of view expressed in those videos, but simply stating that my videos are to get views does not make my points illegitimate. And really? I'm "fear mongering?" Now you are just dropping buzzwords, and this conversation has lost all productivity.

[@DanielA-lp7sw]

Just bought one...

[@brianmartin8256]

People have the right to breed what they want.

[@RadiantReptilia]

That isn't a "right." Freedom of thought/religion, freedom to defend yourself, these are rights. There may be laws that say people can breed or not breed whatever they want, but it is not a human right, and therefore those laws may be subject to change.

[@brianmartin8256]

Lmao yea it IS my right to breed whatever I want and anyone else's as well. Get over it smdh

[@RadiantReptilia]

@@brianmartin8256 Claiming something is a right doesn't make it so. "Right" is a sociopolitical term that holds significance, and the ability to breed whatever you want is embedded neither in the Constitution nor the Bill of Rights. It is your right to believe whatever you want surrounding breeding practices, but it is only a privilege to be able to actually engage in breeding animals that you want to. Just like we can outlaw the privilege to work with certain animals that may be endangered or threatened, we can outlaw the privilege to breed and work with certain animals based on objective morality, and there is no basic right that prevents us from doing so.

[@brianmartin8256]

@@RadiantReptilia Haha good luck with that. Alot more people are for the spider than against it. You show the very few cases filmed of bad wobbles I didn't see no clip's of one's that had no wobble. Funny u try to bash something for a few KZbin likes, sad actually.

[@hc6157]

Brian Martin grow up and actually respond to people you disagree with.

[@TheDecker40]

Go watch NERDS video for a REAL informative answer to the Spider debate. Kevin McCurley was the guy who started breeding the Spider Gene in the US and he has decades of real life experience working with the gene. Funny how you guys always go after Brian Barcyk but don’t try to take on Kevin??

[@RadiantReptilia]

Brain has over 1 million subscribers. Kevin, as influential as he may have been, does not have that reach at the moment. Additionally, his video was not out till after I released this video.

[@BenjaminsExotics]

@TheDecker40, agreed! NERD's video was one of the best I've seen so far. Kevin has raised hundreds of Spider Ball Pythons from babies to adults, and has produced many as well, making him the perfect person to provide real and accurate information and facts. Not simply basing an entire argument off of one or two RESCUE Spider Ball Pythons who could have been in horrible husbandry for the majority of there life making them act the way they do today.

[@kjdexotics447]

You pick on the spider gene yet you have no idea about the fact that most genes have issues. For instance champagne wobbles caramel albino kink super cinny kinks super black pastel kink spotnose has a lethal supper form. And as for the nonsense you plucked about people not being educated about spider. Iv been keeping reptiles ball pythons in particular longer than you have been alive most probably and I love the spider gene and won't ever stop working with it and makes up around 15% of my collection. Also the spiders you shown on your video would most probably be that bad because of peoples bad husbandry. If you are so against the spider gene why do you have a spinner in your collection. As long as people are talking shit like this then people who don't know anything about the issues will only think it's spider thag has issues

[@RadiantReptilia]

Name one point in the video when I said spiders are the only morph with issues. I dare you, name it! I focused on spiders because they are the most widespread and because I have the most experience with them. And my spinnerblast is a rescue!

[@kjdexotics447]

@@RadiantReptilia there isn't a point where you said spider is the only gene with issues however you did not say it wasn't. You highlighted spider because the same reason everyone else has and you have jumped on the band wagon. I am from the UK I am a member of the ihs which I may add has also banned the sale of jag carpet pythons and enigma leopard geckos which was not mentioned either. This is the second video you have done on spider and the first on you banged your snakes head off the table not once but twice. Weather or not your spinner was a rescue or not you still own one and there for are still helping the sales of the gene and by the way payment for a snake is not rescueing the animal its buying it. Also a spider may have issues which is also made worse by poor husbandry. Also you are in the states what the ihs has done over here doesn't effect you and don't understand why you have done a video on it and only point out a third of the animals that have been banned from being sold

[@RadiantReptilia]

15:50

[@kjdexotics447]

@@RadiantReptilia????