Spike Chunsoft & Telling Unhinged Stories

[@nisio7320]

Something that's interesting about the apparent floundering of otherwise intelligent characters in the first chapter of Danganronpa 1 is that if they happened in real life, it would actually be a relatively smart move to keep your hand close to your chest and let someone else solve the case if possible. Single-handedly cracking the case wide open is great in the moment, but once you go back to daily life and someone else is pressured into killing, they'll likely target whoever they think would solve the case if they were left alive (obviously assuming that the next murder is both premeditated and spurred on by a Monokuma motive rather than a personal grudge against a classmate). This puts the characters in a really funny situation where they're smart for seeming stupid. But you can twist it on itself again. The narrative needs characters like Kyoko and Togami to survive to the end, so no killer can target them and the game isn't allowed to acknowledge that it's a basic logical leap to target them. So in real life, they'd be smart for seeming stupid, but in the context of the game they're meant to be read as smart despite legitimately acting stupidly.

[@TheViveros]

Honestly, I think this is what I really liked about v3 - for all of its flaws, it does establish pretty early on that nobody's safe. The first victim and "blackened" both seem like the characters who would be safe at least until the 4th/5th trial, and the first trial does a good job of making it clear that you don't get plot immunity just for having unanswered questions about you or by being smart enough to crack the case.

[@Lightcoresrule]

jeez louise, you're doing zero escape, danganronpa, sommium AND rain code?! All in one video?! I applaud your effort and mental sanity

[@TheViveros]

you don't even want to know what this did to me psychologically, i am a changed man for the worse lmao

[@Lightcoresrule]

@@TheViveros every danganronpa fan

[@Flameclaw123]

The 11037 clue from Danganronpa's first case becomes funnier if you happened to play Ace Attorney first, since 99% of the time when a body has a name or message written next to it in that series, it's a fake clue planted by the killer. I was immediately thinking "okay it can't be Leon, that's the classic death message fakeout" and then the longer the case went on without anyone making the connection between his name and the numbers, the more I started to suspect that no, they were indeed actually playing it completely straight

[@sambeckettcat]

For me I was just kinda in shock as the game really pushed her towards being your sidekick or love interest for the rest of the game. I then kinda took 11037 at face value and didn’t put it together. I also just… did not want Leon to be the killer.

[@CreatrixTiara]

This is exactly what happened to me!! Except I was fully convinced Leon was a red herring right until the moment he was voted the killer and surprise surprise it's correct

[@mysmallnoman]

@@Flameclaw123 it's only obvious if your first language is English, however the Japanese audience didn't get it immediately

[@Gwen1661]

In slight defense of the very first murder case of the first DR game, we think the case and the trial are a piece of cake because we can understand English. For Japanese people, if they're not versed in a language that is not their own in this case, on top of Leon's name being upside down, this was probably a head scratcher for them

[@TheViveros]

That's true, although I can imagine that would've been frustrating for Japanese players to have a major clue in a language that they likely can't read - if the clue had been in Japanese in the English version, it would've gone from "This is a mind-numbingly simple case bc of this one clue" to "This is a frustrating case because it feels like the player is deliberately not able to read the major clue". I don't think it would've been too hard to fix, though - like, if they'd maybe included some sort of registry of the students as a clue that you could look through and see the names in all the different alphabets, and then put the clue in a different one from the game's language, it would've been a bit more work to solve and would've helped to explain why the other characters didn't pick up on it.

[@makaylagalaxy4958]

That’s fair but then leads you to wonder why it’s in English at all. Under the assumption they’re all Japanese it doesn’t really make sense why Sayaka would write his name in English when arguably writing it in traditional character would have been easier/quicker. And even if Sayaka did know English it still is a jump in logic as to why she’d write it in English if she wasn’t certain her other classmates knew it(which arguably some like togami, celeste, maybe even Toko hifumi and Kyoko should). I guess my biggest question is why Leon even has an English name to begin with as it’s never brought up or talked about by other characters like Celeste’s obviously non Japanese name is. No matter how you look at it it’s a bit flawed honestly.

[@BohemianScandalous]

@@TheViveros​​⁠ I don’t actually think it would have been seen as “a language I can’t understand” by japanese people. Japnese people learn english in high school an are familiar with romanization: they would be seeing it everyday if they’re someone who commutes by train because it’s on all of the train station stops, and a lot of ads or signs will have the name of the company or shop with a romanized name. So while it would not be their first instinct to see “Leon” in the numbers, it would not be completely indecipherable for japanese speakers. And considering Sayaka was trying to hide the dying message from Leon she had to choose a way that was subtler than writing “Leon” but not indecipherable towards the rest of the surviving students. I mean, it’s ridiculously easy for an english speaker to see, so that’s why it’s become such a big joke with anglophones, but it’s reasonable for someone who speaks Japanese as their mother tongue.

[@toonydotloony]

@@TheViverosAs the #1 DRTHH case 1 defender i’ve ever met, i believe Leon mentions how he wants an autograph made out to “L-E-O-N” in game, and i believe that’s consistent across translations. This i think perfectly balanced out the difficulty specifically for the Japanese version. It kinda makes sense for Leon to want an English autograph just based on his vibe, and it puts the idea of english characters in the head of a Japanese player early without being too obvious.

[@Grey-i2o]

Not exactly, Japanese students are taught English as a part of our curriculum. 11037 was as obvious for me (fluently bilingual in English and Japanese) as it was to my classmate who knows barely any English. It’s not a stretch to assume that someone playing DR1 would be able to sus it out if they recognized the English letters.

[@Lightcoresrule]

1 minute in and you talk about your mental never being the same after picking up V3. Yep, the authentic experience

[@clownpaws1652]

38:03 i have to disagree there, a zero escape game without a 10 minute long monologue on a seemingly inconsequential & obscure topic is like an angel without it's wings

[@clownpaws1652]

no uchikoshi game is complete without a weird girl companion suddenly giving you a lecture on the history of eastern esotericism and it somehow tying into the main plot of the game

[@lukewest5577]

@@clownpaws1652 yeah, if you don’t like that happening in your games, then Uchikoshi is not the writer for you. And that’s okay!

[@Trinthegay]

Logically, I know that zero time dilemma isn't that good of a game, but I think I forgot to pay attention half the time because I am a very weak gay man and sigma is just SITTING there with that tight ass shirt.

[@TheViveros]

This is Carlos erasure smh

[@naptime23_7]

i'm aroace but hand to god i could not stop focusing on Carlos and Sigma's fat tits the whole time playing ztd

[@nachocabo4221]

I highly disagree with what you said about Sayaka and Leon. Sayaka was by far the most desperate to go out since the begininng and during the whole chapter we were able to notice how she started to lose hope more and more, that video triggering everything. And Leon, you could say "oh he turned into a cold murderer" and call that out of character, but I saw it in a completely different way, and actually found so eerie that I completely understood why he did what he did, I mean, he is in the middle of this killing game, surrounded by people he knows nothing about and one of them tried to kill him, dude, of course he is gonna take the chance and try escape, it is cruel, but can u blame him? I dont think is out of character at all, he didnt turned cold, he found a way of getting out without killing someone "inocent", is still bad that he did that, but understandable non the less

[@HopeIsADrug11037]

i never thought about leon like this and i think you're absolutely right

[@scarlet6719]

i don’t remember clearly since it’s been a while since i played danganronpa but im pretty sure Leon had some sort of anger issues. it would explain why an attempt to kill him would drive him to murder

[@TrulySomeone]

⁠@@scarlet6719Leon hasn’t been shown to have any type of Anger Issues in the story. I don’t remember much about his FTE’s but I don’t think anything like that was brought up there.

[@dustyfedora]

I don’t mind that 11037 is such an easy clue because it has you so focused in the fact Leon did it you don’t think too much about why he did it and the sudden reveal of Sayaka intending to kill him and pin it on you is pretty cool and flips a bunch of what happens in chapter 1 regarding Sayaka and flips it on it’s head. Also with the matter of Rain Code and the Monster of the Week thing not being executed well enough was a worry I had for the game coming up to the release with it being people we don’t know, being killed by people we don’t know. (Thankfully Chapters 2,4, and 5 exist and are pretty damn good)

[@Ren_Ca]

About the code 11037, you have to keep in mind that the game was originally released in japan exclusively. For the Japanese audience, they're not acostummed to look for letters written on the roman alphabet, making the case way more effective in your first playthrough

[@Kagetheorc]

I think it's fascinating to see how, over time, the main thing that's been consistent with the attempt at unhinged stories is that, eventually, they try to ground them using some arguably cosmic, grand concepts. They hit and miss all over the damn place, but the fact they keep trying to cycle back to foundational parts of the human condition, like coping with our existence, while also bringing in batshit moon logic that -feels- anything but grounded. It's a wild timeline to see, but you can even tell with their earlier works that this has always been their intention, even if it missed the ball a lot at times.

[@TheViveros]

Honestly, some of those older games kinda remind me of stuff like the Wolfenstein franchise or Mortal Kombat where it initially just started out as something relatively shallow (not in a bad way, just in terms of not trying to tell deeper stories about the human condition or whatever) and then had to try to add in the depth over time and stumbled a couple times in the process. I think part of why AITSF worked so much better was because they weren’t trying to add the grounded, human elements into a story that wasn’t initially built for them.

[@Kagetheorc]

I can see that perspective. Regardless, they've come a very long way. A lot of stumbling was done to get to where AITSF is. My partner pointed out that NI did a fragment storytelling way better than ZTD, and I'm sure the through-line continues for many of the elements that make the AI series work. @@TheViveros

[@TheViveros]

That's true, actually. I hadn't thought about it that way, but I guess NI is a fragmented story. I think part of why it still works out in the end is that it's still only trying to tell 2 (technically 3) characters' stories, and that it pulls the rug out from under you rather than telling you to try to guess where you think the rug might be. ZTD tried to do too much with two many characters and too many separate plots without really giving you any context for the decisions you were making, but like you said, there's a lot of stuff in AITSF where it really feels like they looked back at Zero Escape (especially ZTD) and thought "Ok, why didn't this work, and how can we do it better?"

[@Kagetheorc]

It very clearly feels like a product that's the next stage in the evolutionary development of the way ol' Spiky Chunny does their storytelling. And gameplay to an extent, too; as the gameplay is so intertwined to the story, that the gameplay kinda flatlines if the story sucks. While I want a third one, they don't seem to have a good track record when it comes to 3rd's.@@TheViveros

[@iyxon]

LET'S GOO!! Loved DR as a kid and Somnium Files now.

[@iyxon]

Also good to hear this isn't just going to be a "summary of all the games with 2 seconds of analysis" quote unquote "video essays"

[@nitrodark7027]

To me, Kotaro Uchikoshi feels like a writer who comes up with plot twists first then writes backwards from there tbh. I dont necessarally mean this as a bad thing. I saw a KZbin video saying that he came up with 999's plot twist first as soon as he learned that he was gonna make a DS game, which is why I think that none of the next Zero Escape games after reached the same heights as 999 for me. I'm kinda suprised that you dont like 999, since its most ZE fan's fav game in the series

[@TheViveros]

I didn’t really have an answer for why exactly VLR worked for me when 999 didn’t as well back when I made this, but I think a pretty major component is that VLR feels like it’s appropriately tedious in understandable ways for the task at hand. Like, yeah, it should take 30-ish different timelines to figure out how to save humanity with sci-fi fantasy bullshit about morphogenetic fields in space - if anything, it should probably take more, but regardless it felt like the ends justified the means. Meanwhile, 999 somehow didn’t really involve many timelines given how much was going on. And also, as a consequence, there wasn’t as much time for dicking around because Uchikoshi had to manage to write out all those timelines and get players through *all* of them to finish the story, and I think it led to him cutting out a lot of fluff. My biggest issue with 999 was that it tended to drag out *way* too long, and imo a lot of that is because there wasn’t a need to be urgent because there were really only 2-3 timelines at play at any given time (which is also a problem ngl bc there probably should’ve been more for the same reasons the later games had more, it just doesn’t make sense for Junpei to get it all sorted out after like… 2-3 tries). VLR didn’t have any slack in the rope, so he needed to find ways to tell you all the information you needed in a more succinct, efficient way, even if it was in a longer, more complicated story, and I think that led to some more pared-down and focused writing even if the end result was a longer game. I think you can see something similar in the AITSF games, both of which rely on the kinds of twists that generally require you to be very particular with how you handle the writing (Nirvana Initiative in particular) so there’s less room for him to fall off the rails without losing the plot. 999 is a pretty good example of what you were saying about starting with a twist and working backwards, and I think his relative lack of experience was showing in the sense that he just wasn’t as good at knowing how to connect the dots in a satisfying way. Since he didn’t know what to fill it with, it ended up with a lot of fluff, and that ended up dragging it down for me. That being said, I don’t *hate* 999 or anything. I think it’s solidly fine, although it’s worth remembering that I played this game in 2023 and on PC so my experience with it is pretty different from people who played it on launch day on the DS. Ngl, I was probably still pissed about that final puzzle when I made this video. Regardless, I think it’s just pretty ok - I probably wouldn’t go out of my way to recommend it to random people by itself, but I would tell people that it’s pretty fun and that it’s worth it just to set up for VLR. The only one of those games I truly hate is ZTD, because good god, what a series of choices that was lmao

[@snivader]

21:04 when you said you’re a v3 defender and that you’re a sombra main and we signed up for these takes i laughed haha, V3 defender sombra mains unite!!

[@emme0731]

I get the criticism for ZTD, it's objectively extremely messy and it fails to execute satisfyingly on a lot of the set-up that VLR sets up. However, I really enjoy it simply because I describe it as a comedy game disguised as a horror escape game. The way the cutscenes are animated makes me laugh uncontrollably every time and I always jump to the chance to watch my friends play it. Edit: I'm further in the video and have to comment on how when I got to the reveal of Saito in Somnium, it was like 1am and Allegra's performance there was very chilling and hit hard... but also made me feel very weird because I'm a dumb lesbian who loves Boss haha

[@HeyaitsLynn]

Hey instead of the negative opinions I have about V3 and ZTD, I wanted to say you've been a real one for talking briefly about the canon Date/Ryuki relationship.

[@TheViveros]

I can’t talk about it for too long without sounding like a conspiracy theorist but you cannot change my mind, those two men are in love and are dating and that’s just the facts of the case.

[@HeyaitsLynn]

I just think they make a cute couple, and Ryuki deserves love and happiness. I can see it being more of a one-sided love, because Date is Date. IDC Date can whore it up, but when he comes home at night, it's Ryuki waiting for him. @@TheViveros

[@justanotherfangirlontheint4084]

I personally love V3's ending, the way I see it the point is that fiction matters. Our love of the story makes it feel real "this lie became the truth", I don't think it's dunking on us for liking the series it's critiquing the endless desire for more. Everything must end, the themes of Hope and Despair have been explored enough and it's time to move on if the series continues it eventually loses meaning by becoming an empty cash grab. The reveal also works with the truth and lies theme, I mean what is fiction if not the ultimate lie? If fiction has the power to change us then the story mattered, and Tsmugi was wrong. Obviously personal opinion, I'm biased and may very well be wrong, but that's my intreptation.

[@KhepriProd]

same. I don’t think it’s saying “you’re bad for liking Danganronpa” it’s saying “every fiction must end, but the impact it leaves on us is real”

[@kiyohimeisbetterthanmorgan220]

I absolutely agree. All the V3 hate seriously confuses me because V3's entire theme was Truth vs Lies, and the message it's trying to convey (which was pretty easy to figure out if you ask me, like they outright say it word for word) is that fiction can have as much of an impact on the world as reality can. Or in other words, a lie can be just as meaningful as the truth. I'm sure as hell not saying it's a perfect story, but it does it's job in delivering that specific message, and it really ain't the game's fault if people are too illiterate to figure it out on their own.

[@Gwen1661]

I'm not sure if you're aware of how ZTD even came to be but I cut that game a lot of slack due to its... Circumstances. You don't have to change your opinion of the game after learning of its context, but maybe it puts some things into perspective?? Basically, this game was only made due to the love and support of fans from the West. Apparently, the Zero Escape games were never that popular in their country of origin (as opposed to other Spike Chunsoft games) but overseas?? We love these things. So I think it's a miracle we even have a third game that can sort of finish what started with the first two and not just leave VLR with a cliffhanger that will never get resolved. At least we got *an* ending. Could ZTD have been better if Uchikoshi had more time to develop the story and twists?? Yeah. Could it have looked and played better if it had more fanfare from Japan, ergo would've had more of a budget?? That too. But we don't live in that timeline where ZTD was able to be made under normal circumstances. How we got it doesn't justify the final product... But I can't fault it that much when it's a miracle ZTD is here at all.

[@TheViveros]

I know about that stuff, and I think it kinda just adds onto how much of a shame it is that it wasn't better. It sucks that the stars aligned and a miracle happened only for the final product to be something that misses the mark so hard - and while a lot of that definitely comes down to resources, I don't think more budget or resources would've made this game good. Stuff like what happened with the alien teleportation pod and the Phi/Sigma/Delta situation probably can't be made better with more money - again, I think it's a real shame that it ended up like that bc I loved VLR, and it was just a real disappointment to go straight from such a high point to such a low point.

[@Gwen1661]

Yeah, you're right. I brought it up since you didn't in the video and I wasn't sure if you were aware of its special circumstances or not. Not that it excuses the crazy decisions that happened narratively on ZTD. This isn't even my favourite of the trilogy but I still feel bat for ZTD.

[@TheViveros]

I can understand that. I definitely do feel bad for it too, and for Uchikoshi in a lot of ways - it must have been *rough* to put everything into this game and do it all for the fans against all the odds only for it to be received so poorly. He can clearly tell really good stories too, the games before and after ZTD were all way better, so it’s not like he’s just a hack writer or something. I think part of why ZTD gets people so heated is that it’s bad in ways it doesn’t seem like it should’ve been able to be bad. It feels like a Metal Gear Survive type of game where the studio ripped control from the creator and just put out something to make a quick buck, despite the fact that it was created in basically the exact opposite of that situation.

[@katsucurry8357]

I’m gonna be a hater on the first V3 twist for one minute because there is something really weird abt it. As you described, the way the twist was set up, executed and overall written was about as perfect as you can get in Danganronpa. Clearly a lot of effort was put in to make it work. HOWEVER, it should’ve been the other way around. One major problem with spike chunsoft games in general is that the protagonists can feel very boring same-y especially in Danganronpa. Makoto and Hajime are your classic everyman protag, a conduit for the audience to experience the world through. But that can wear thin very fast especially when the two are virtually indistinguishable from one another. This is what makes Kaede so interesting: she’s got a personality (ik how novel) so she’s such a great protag for V3. Except she’s only in the first chapter and then gets switched out for Shuichi, a character just as flat and threadbare as Makoto and Hajime. Granted he has some semblance of an arc but nowhere near as interesting as Kaede was just because he’s too similar to Makoto and Hajime. It’s so tragic because that twist is brilliantly executed but ended up being in service of a worse story (in my opinion.) I say that it should’ve been the other way around bc if you switch who dies and who ends up being the protag for the rest of the game, you can have your cake and eat it too. You get a great twist in exchange for a better protag. I’m not the only one who thinks this ofc, this is a pretty commonly held belief. This is in no way a refutation of what you said abt the twist since i basically agree with all the points you raised.

[@TheViveros]

I agree, I don’t hate Shuichi but I do think the twist would’ve worked a lot better if you’d started as Shuichi and then got swapped to Kaede after he committed that first killing - it also would’ve felt like less of a bait-and-switch when the game was advertised as having a female protagonist. The twist is great, but its consequences were significantly less great.

[@itselisha222]

Yes yes yes. Swap the characters and it could have been one of the greatest twists in gaming history. Oh well.

[@WithASock]

i wonder if the reason they avoided this is because 'the detective is the culprit' seemed cliche to them? And certainly many a person ive seen play v3 suspected saihara in the first place-- first based on that cliche and then based on his actual suspicious behavior later. i get the impression that we ARE supposed to think it's saihara for a time because of these tropes and because oma clearly suspected him, so theyve gotta be aware that they Could have gone that direction. i guess is a sort of sticky scenario where a writer is avoiding something that seems too obvious... but the fact that its obvious means there are valid reasons to come to that conclusion, from a player's perspective. Not to reduce the 1st chapter twist to them just avoiding the one trope since theres clearly a lot more put into it than that. It's just that i can clearly see being pulled in two directions on this plot point from a writing angle.

[@ForrestFox626]

Honestly, I didn't think Kaede was different enough from Hajime or Makoto. Yes, she was more optimistic and took charge; but I honestly think those are horrible traits to have in a killing game (at least taking charge). And I kind of preferred Shuichi.

[@Marigold11037]

I 100% agree - Kaede's plan feels much more like a detective's plan, following the logical steps of the mastermind coming to the room, then moving towards the source of the camera flash with their death ending the game For some reason, playing as a detective doesn't give much of a different experience than the first two games. Having the detective character die in the first chapter would establish some really important rules about the game - nobody is safe, and logic won't save you Although Shuichi's struggle with lies vs truth works well for the theme of V3, Kaede feels like she's much more likely to utilise both to get the best outcome THH specifically avoids giving Kyoko the full scope of her talent, and SRD2 doesn't have a detective character, so ripping away the safety net of a detective character at the start would've also been a great moment Besides, it would've been nice to finally play as a female protagonist (excluding UDG because....yeah.)

[@enoxrule]

god damn 1 hour and 45 minutes thats passion

[@TheViveros]

Passion born of mental illness is a strong thing

[@ASloppyJoe]

For the ZTD Steam description thing... to play devil's advocate, it's STILL not lying! Nine participants awaken - that's everyone that isn't Delta. Delta is already AWAKE, as he's taken the mantle of Zero in that situation. So he wouldn't need to awaken as Q, so, uh, yeah that's 9 participants that do wake up at the start. Heh :P

[@spouwnerring]

2:30 there are KZbinrs who are able to break the 12 hour timelimit, but most of those channels just show themselves playing any given game in it's entirety without giving commentary. A KZbinr called Lacry posted a 51 hour video of him completing Final Fantasie 16.

[@tobinbones8577]

I started this video a week or so ago and AI the somnium files sounded so good that I paused the video and watched a whole play through and then came back here. I’m so glad I did, what an amazing game.

[@TheViveros]

Right? I absolutely adore it, it’s baffling to me that it isn’t more widely recognized. I liked Zero Escape well enough, but AITSF is what makes me excited for future Uchikoshi titles.

[@chlozentimes]

ALL OF IT IN ONE VIDEO??? YOU'RE A MAD MAN THATS SO AWESOME i'm happy you covered rain code it's hard to find people talking about it analytically.

[@TheViveros]

Rain Code feels like it kinda just got forgotten, which is a little sad. There’s some stuff it does really well, and some stuff that’s a bit rough but could do great in a sequel if it somehow got one. Its biggest weakness to me is relying too much on the Danganronpa structure, but that’s something it could definitely fix. I think it mostly just suffered from being a Switch exclusive - maybe if it had just been a timed exclusive it would’ve worked out better.

[@chlozentimes]

@@TheViveros Well, hopefully with the new ports to all consoles and I think steam coming this year I pray people will give it a chance. I really loved and hyper fixated on it a lot, I think it's really great. At least personally for experience wise the only time I cared less was Chapter 3 but otherwise I was invested enough that the caring thing wasn't much of an issue. I think Rain Code is wonderful but especially popularity wise suffers from its connections to Danganronpa, it's a mixed bag that's certainly subjective, of course like all media LOL.

[@villagerc7130]

I WAS WAITING FOR THISSS

[@chocoviria4909]

Hi there, this is cool video overall, but i couldn't agree less with your conclusions on regards to V3 endings. In my opinion not just everything Tsumugi says its true, is the point that its true. I also don't think the story is nearly about blaming you for enjoying the story, but quite the opposite - Shuichi's arc is about being deprived of his own identity, turned into a machinne for the enjoyment of others. And precisely because he is our avatar, is our responsibility to make his suffering end. Ultimate Real Fiction is a vehicle to make the characters we love, well, real, let them live as real people for once. There're no more scripts for them to act, the world is full of possibilities. That why i love the ending doesn't show us any sense of something fully realized, because now is a canvas. Also, i know the topic of the video is the unhinged part of these games and how they deliver it, and even tho i can agree V3 isn't the strongest at delivering most of its points, at the end of the day is a Shinhonkaku work, not just a mystery game. Both THH and GD can be read as just detective stories, but Killing Harmony, as its name implies, it's about not adhering to convention. The script is the harmony, everything in place working as intended, and that results on many teenagers keep dying. This doesn't have to happen anymore, that's why the final reason in the game is to kill not just the game itself, but the IDEA of Danganronpa as a whole, and the only way to fulfill that is to make so absurd, so unbelievable and untrustworthy for the audience that it doesn't have a place as a serious detective story anymore. That's the main reason i think the game is actually quite bland after the first case. Becase, just a Shuichi, V3 became a game in search of protagonist, in search of someone to lead the story to... some place, and failed. He faces a wall, a metafictional wall that can't be get over. And that's why V3 is a Shinhonkaku story - it's not about telling a 'good detective story', but the reflect on the genre as a whole and criticize it. It's more like a postmodern work in that sense.

[@ForrestFox626]

Really, I don't see it that way.

[@jmh8817]

ALRIGHT FINE YOU TALKED ME INTO PLAYING THE SOMNIUM FILES BLIND, JEEZ. I'll come back and finish this in a few weeks.

[@Josh-gq6hh]

omg viv, this is a GIRTHY video. absolutely great job :)

[@GreenSlime55]

Hearing you talk about the most unhinged things is a glorious experience! Even better when it lasts an hour and a half lol

[@grayveebean]

I've been following AI since the first game's release, and somehow ONLY NOW do I realize that Iris is not just a name for a plant, but also an eyeball part continuing with the imagery. Why did I not... "see" this beforehand? (Edit: clarity)

[@heek8964]

It's finally here! I've been waiting! It's really here!

[@hollowayraulie1422]

I’ve been waiting for someone to talk about raincode. Your point about not caring about the people involved in the cases is spot on. 2 was also a personal favorite of mine because of the reasons you stated. Still, Chapter 5 and 6 are probably my favorite in all of the spike chunsoft games I’ve played, because where the overarching stories in Danganronpa were really silly imo, the mystery of Kanai Ward is so well thought out and compelling it blows Danganronpa out of the water. So idk which I like better…it’s probably recency bias but I was really impressed with the story. Also Chapter 1 was awful, so dreadful examining those 4 crime scenes multiple times 🙄

[@TheViveros]

I think the only problem I have with the ending of Rain Code was that there could've been more to build up to where it was going if that makes sense? Part of why the DR structure doesn't really carry over is that solving a Danganronpa trial inherently puts you one step closer to figuring out who's behind it all and why they're doing it, because it eliminates more characters and advances the collective narrative of the group. Rain Code's cases don't really do anything to give you a clue towards the ultimate mystery - it's definitely a cool twist and I think within its chapters where it's the focus it's executed well, but it feels like it suffers for not really being given enough runway before it has to take off. DR's twists are definitely goofier and a little more left-field, but they're also given a lot more time to build up and they're ultimately tied back into their overall narratives a lot better. Trigger Happy Havoc's twist is silly, but I think it also serves as a better conclusion to its story because of how it ties into everything else you've done, whereas most of what you've done in Rain Code doesn't really tie into the conclusion beyond some glorified cameos. Also yeah, Chapter 1 of Rain Code felt like they thought "Wow, everyone really seemed to like the locked room mysteries in Danganronpa! What if we just, like, did a billion of those back-to-back?" when part of what made the locked room mysteries in those games fun was that they were rare and indicated something unique about the killers and victims. It felt agonizingly tedious, especially since you then had to explain the whole thing to Halara all over again. Part of why the last chapter (and the prologue, tbh) worked is that you weren't being followed around by another master detective in the mystery labyrinth, so you could focus on solving the case instead of being bogged down by the compounding amnesia of the situation lmao

[@Monochrome_11]

have i got something to listen to while i do homework thank you good sir

[@Lightcoresrule]

Hey wait a minute! That's my pfp!

[@xSimone92x]

I loved VLR passionately when I first played it. I can't remember zero time dilemma being as bad as you made it seem but I definitely remember being dissatisfied with how it brought everything together. Damn you made me really want to replay the series. I enjoyed your take on the series very much. Kudos!

[@SalviAlmighty]

MAN I love VLR so much. Watching the section about it really made me think back of all the moments that made me go !???!?? I remember thinking I was losing my mind when [someone] changed their vote in a second attempt at an AB game.. Only for Sigma to also react to it. Bro. Magnificent. Still mad the devs dropped the "???" plot-point tho... Also really grossed out by what was done with Sigma's character in ZTD.. Slept with a drunk vulnerable girl, got her pregnant (and if you think retroactively, knowingly flirts with his own daughter in VLR?? The continuity isn't continuing.) Huge fan of Zero Escape here (also love DR), and man you really put passion into this retrospective! We love to see it!

[@TheViveros]

I can’t remember if I mentioned it in the video but my first route was the one where I paired up with Alice, and the first time around I betrayed her. I was like “Fine, whatever, I’ll go back and we’ll work together next time” - and then when she betrayed me it was the moment I think I realized that I was going to like this game a lot. VLR should’ve been an absolute train wreck because that’s an insane, complicated plot, but somehow they managed to land it really well. And then they undermined so much of it with ZTD 😔 And thank you! I’m glad you enjoyed it, this was a really fun video to make - a bit exhausting bc I had to play a *lot* of games to catch up on everything for this, but worth it.

[@treplox4318]

for Sigma ZTD (old mind, young body) happens chronologically after VLR (old body, young mind), with some added twists in time loop, so like, he did it UNknowingly which is slightly better

[@wrenromero6392]

WE FINALLY GOT THE ZERO ESCAPE VIDEO AND IT'S AS LONG AS ALL THE OTHER VIDEOS COMBINED. BELIEVERS REJOICE, OUR DAY IN THE SUN HAS ARRIVED

[@TheViveros]

The faithful will be rewarded for their belief (hopefully you didn’t like ZTD though bc otherwise this might not be much of a reward lmao)

[@SobreDunas]

It'd be really interesting to see what your opinion on World's End Club is. It's a very different story with very different gameplay and age demographic and even though it has its fair share of flaws it has some really interesting strengths. Especially the character design my god they all look so cool and original

[@sowbtsoqx451]

yes please! i love that children with all my heart

[@ShadowoftheDude]

I don't think I'll ever forgive V3 for it's ending, but the first trial was genuinely one of the craziest, most awe-inspiring things I've ever experienced in a game. Maybe that's why the bad parts hurts so much, the good parts were so, so, SO good.

[@avery6515]

YAY! ANOTHER VIDEO ESSAY I WILL BINGE FOR THE 6 TIME TODAY!!

[@Pandorana67]

I mentioned this in a different comment but I am now a channel member for this month. Unfortunately I can't be one for every month but you definitely earned this month with this monster of a release! Keep up the good work. Personally, I'd like to see more stuff about AI the Somnium files because 1) I am completely unhinged about it as well, but also because I think this platform is woefully lacking in creator content about it and would love to see it get more love since Danganronpa generally has a lot of love already. I'll be looking forward to the upcoming channel members poll and have a well deserved rest!

[@TheViveros]

Honestly I had never heard of AITSF before buying it - I only got it because it was part of a bundle with all the Zero Escape games on Steam, and I only bothered playing it because people told me I should leave a bit of a gap between 999 and VLR. I wasn’t expecting it to be so good, but it quickly became one of my all-time favourite games and then Nirvana Initiative somehow manages to keep really good pace with it. The fact that it doesn’t get as much love as the other games in this video is *baffling* to me, and a real shame because people are missing out. As far as future topics go, I’d definitely like to talk about it more down the road - I kinda had an idea for a video comparing how Overwatch leaves a lot of its characters’ potential unrealized versus how AITSF fully capitalizes on its characters, but I think I’ll probably wait on that for a bit until we see this story stuff play out a bit more. And thank you so much for the membership! Don’t worry about not being able to do it every month or anything - honestly, I sometimes worry that people who get a membership think I’ll be sad if they cancel their membership, but the intention was always for it to be something that people could pick up or drop whenever they felt like it. I always expected people to do it as a “I’ll do it for a month to vote on a specific topic but that’s it” type of thing - plus, times are tough, and I’m fully at peace with the fact that when it comes to budgeting a channel membership is gonna be the first thing on the chopping block lmao

[@siggevidstige8019]

as a V3 ending LOVER i still can't decide if it's actually good, or if i'm gaslighting myself into seeing 7 layers of masterful writing where there is none cuz it's too open ended, but viewing it not as "the end to danganronpa 3" but as a messaged from Kodaka to the fans it's really good (i love gaslighting myself) it's kinda how to have to view FNaF world not as a "FNaF game" but as "Scott Cawthon game" you have to view it from the outside not the inside, if you even know what i'm talking about?

[@JeromeSankara]

Welp I've got a 2 hour drive for work today. I know what I'm listening to.

[@Wince_Media]

I feel like the twist with Sean wouldve made a lot more sense if he were another clone of Left (Dio) from VLR. Left os already Delta's little brother who died, so i feel like Sean's existence is redundant to that. Plus, showing Sean/Left as this scared little innocent child automatically shows that Dio wasnt born evil, he was brainwashed/manipulated at a young age to be so by the Big Brother cult

[@ajflink]

It seems like every game, especially Danganronpa, from Spike Chunsoft, especially the mystery ones, seem to be required to be required to be somehow weird in a Sam & Max sense without the comedy but always has these WTF moments that either catch you by surprise in the general sense or make you think the main creator head behind the game needs psychological help.

[@Seacle14]

"I'm not in my 5 hour video essay phase yet" Joseph Anderson in shambles

[@TheViveros]

It’ll be my punishment if I ever get to 100k on this platform, I will make a video essay that will make Joseph Anderson cry

[@Meese12]

21:01 its so great to see that there are other people that are insane and objectively wrong. V3 was also my first and i dont think i wouldve stuck with the series through its intense and frequent lows if that first trial hadnt whooped my ass so unbelievably hard.

[@wagononfire3874]

I'm not sure if youre aware, but 999's port to steam etc in the Nonary Games bundle is notoriously bad, particularly due to the split between 'Adventure Mode' and 'Novel Mode' to cope with the loss of the dual screens on the ds causing a lot of weird dialogue and characters just explaining what theyre doing, which was accounted for by the bottom screen (I mean, theres still characters randomly talking about random things in life or death situations for no reason, but thats a given with 999). Theres a fantastic video about it by ItsYourPalJacob if you havent seen it before/are curious about it! Also, I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on Worlds End Club, the game made by both Kodaka and Uchikoshi, which is a... weird game, but it does have some great twists imo, but you do need to get past some of the gameplay and bloated cast. On another note, I would definitely recommend 13 Sentinels: Aegis Rim if you havent played it already! Its an incredible game that has an unhinged story that outshines a lot of the entries in this video, and it lands the ending phenomenally. I dont want to say much more about it because its best to go into it as blind as possible! Great video by the way!

[@TheViveros]

Thank you so much, and I’m glad you enjoyed it! I hadn’t seen that video about 999’s port (I’ll check it out ASAP) but I definitely heard about the weirdness that came with the port in general. That last puzzle in particular really made it clear that the port didn’t get the TLC it needed to work properly on a single screen. I also haven’t played either of those games, but I’ll check them out!

[@WithASock]

oh thank god someone mentioned this. 999's pacing and exposition suffered IMMENSELY from the port. like, in the original characters were still info dumping about things, but the the tone of them doing so is drastically different when its not constantly sandwiched between observations that were previously made by a 'silent', semi-omniscient narrator. it goes from a group of people floundering under the mystery theyve found themselves in to a cast that just Doesnt talk or behave like even weird people do.

[@Wince_Media]

​@@TheViverostheres a very good video called 999 lost in translation if you wanna know more! I played the DS version and loved it, so I really think you should check out that video

[@Zeturic]

In ZTD, when I saw there was an additional path from the standoff in the library, I kept coming back to it every time a new name was mentioned in every fragment. From the dog, to a random coworker of Diana, to Eric's mom, I kept trying. Eventually, I heard the name Delta for the first time and tried it and got that scene, but I still had absolutely no idea what was going on because I didn't know that Sean wasn't Q.

[@Lightcoresrule]

I know you said you're keeping it brief talking about the narrative points on each game, so would you be willing to give these game series' their own videos in the future? a deep dive sort of thing

[@TheViveros]

Maybe! It would kinda depend if I felt like I could find a good angle on it, and if there's any demand for it. I *do* have plans for a video in November that would talk a little about Danganronpa as part of a bigger trend in media to try to connect it to the release of The Ballad of Songbirds & Snakes though lol

[@Lightcoresrule]

@@TheViveros Ah okay okay, i just wanna hear what you would have to say on danganronpa or zero escape as part of their own video essay tbh lol though i suppose you'll need to answer a specific question via your essay...

[@cameronsifferman6484]

Mama is VERRRRRRRY Delta, she speaks extemporaneously behind that counter like her life depends on it

[@emh.1178]

I think one of the biggest issues with ZTD is that it is SUCH a tonal shift from the other two games. It is so so so uncomfortable to play, instead of a mystery/survival game, it feels more like something out of the Saw franchise in the absolute worst way. To get to the true ending you have to kill people and watch some genuinely horrific cutscenes of the characters dying slowly and painfully, and it made me feel genuinely sick to play at some points. Also the twist with Phi being Sigmas daughter is so so so so so so bad. I hate that so much. Everything else would be forgivable considering the circumstances in which it had to be made (the dev team got seriously screwed over). Plus a lot of the puzzles were better done than some in VLR and the music is great. But oh my god the tonal shift was so jarring and horrible. I love AISF, but the Date's incessant horniness is so insufferable and the copaganda is intense. But wow, the rest of the game is awesome even with the awful implications of the world building and how obnoxious the main character is. AINI (and i say this lovingly) is a hot mess. The copaganda is even worse, even thought the horniness is turned down to a much more manageable level. The twist doesn't work quite as well, i thought it would have been much more impactful if the cyclops killer had been Ryuki's twin and if both of them had been part of the experiments, which would help explain Ryuki's gamebreaking abilities and the cyclops killers fixation on him. But i forgive all its sins because the character interactions are so fun and well writtenXD

[@TheViveros]

Yeah, in the other Zero Escape games it was still obviously dangerous but not nearly as graphic. The ninth man's death is really as bad as it gets, but they don't linger on it as much as they do with all the ZTD stuff like the shower scenes. The Saw comparison is a good one too, it just doesn't feel like the same type of game or the same type of story - this felt like an attempt to torture the characters rather than what 999 and VLR were doing where there was more of a bigger purpose narrative to them. The end of ZTD was just like... ok, but why? Also very valid about AITSF, I think I would've hated Date's horniness if it wasn't constantly being rebuffed by the characters around him. Nirvana Initiative does benefit a lot more from the lack of unhinged horny and more approachable protagonists. I really liked the twist, though. I thought the timeline thing was a really clever way to subvert expectations, although I think its big weakness is that it's really hard to understand the implications of it until you watch another playthrough of it, especially if you play it the way I did (3-4 hours at a time, once a week) because then you're trying to recall which events that you played 1-3 months ago happened in which timelines and it's not ideal. If it had had a bit of a longer flashback sequence to show you which important moments happened in the past vs present, I think it would've been a lot better. But like you said, the characters are so fun. I probably said it in the video (it's been a long time since I made it lmao) but I think both of the AITSF games are good examples of how good characters can elevate a story, and they're both greater than the sum of their parts as a consequence of some really good writing for the full supporting cast. Characters like Boss or Mama or Pewter are given a lot of personality and depth that makes you really excited whenever you get to talk to them, and both times I remember being surprised at how many of the characters in the final dance numbers I remembered and loved.

[@Lightcoresrule]

......is your blood pressure okay after going through zero time dilemma?

[@TheViveros]

It goes up every time I think about it, Uchikoshi's lucky that he made AITSM or we'd have some real beef

[@Lightcoresrule]

@@TheViveros they say not every piece is gonna be a top it, then you have zero time dilemma vs sommium files LMAO

[@Lightcoresrule]

Also would you be a dear and make a video on zero time dilemma so none of us have to go play it, for the lols. Actually dont do that i think your blood pressure will skyrocket by the time you finish that script🤣

[@EvoluteCreator]

im loving your video essays

[@Bobothefish13]

One thing that I feel wasn't talked about as a strength of Rain Code and ultimately why I really want to see more is how well it developed the setting. The characters and individual chapters could definitely feel a bit watered down at times but the meta narrative was excellent in my opinion due to how well the setting was developed and how I felt myself care about it over the course of the story.

[@Jayfeather4x]

I have to ask have you tried playing Projects: Edens garden? its a fanmade game inspired by danganronpa, fully free and really nice plot so far

[@TheViveros]

I have not yet, but I’ve heard good things!

[@sowbtsoqx451]

my god. FINALLY someone who shares my opinion on 999. every time i saw everyone singing praises to this game without criticizing it even a bit i couldn't help but wonder - did we really play the same game? for me it was the biggest slog because of all the exposition dumps and some really unpleasant characters (i'm looking directly at you, junpei, akane and clover). i really loved the art, the music, half of the characters and all of the puzzles but trying to get from puzzle to puzzle was sometimes so painful. no, we DON'T need to talk about some obscure concept for half an hour while we are literally FREEZING TO DEATH lmao. this game would have been so good if they just hired a good editor and some testers, and i can't help but feel sad at the missed opportunity. still i have a weird attachment to it and can't really say i hate it. i hate its editors who stopped this game from being literally perfect for me, cause it ticks all the boxes of a game i would really love. i couldn't finish vtr after sinking tens of hours into it mainly because of clover's idiocy. she was my favorite in 999 until snake's "death" when she became so unhinged for no real reason (what do you mean you will become a mass murderer on a whim because your brother died and you won't check to see if it's really his body??), and in vtr it's even worse, because now it's not even about a family member but about a new friend she made not so long ago if i recall correctly. some other characters made me feel like i have brain damage, and the character dynamics didn't work out for me, the puzzles were less fun but maybe my brain just shut down after 999. also why implement 3d models if 2d sprites in 999 worked perfectly and were so much better? the death scenes look so silly now, and now there's more visual bugs (clover standing with a :3 face looking at alice's corpse was a highlight of my day LMAO). also fvck ztd. all my homies hate ztd.

[@TheViveros]

I will say, I think if you can get past Clover VLR is legitimately really solid and I’d recommend finishing it if you can. The ending is unhinged but I really liked how it landed it. The art style is also not my favourite, I wish they’d stuck with the 2D style too, but 🤷🏼‍♂️ But yeah, on 999 in particular I’ve always been kinda baffled to not see more criticism of the lack of editing. I love info dumping about random nonsense, that’s what most of my videos are, but it’s gotta be done well and 999’s info dumps overstay their welcome. And ZTD is just ZTD. How Uchikoshi went from that to AITSF is never going to not be a mystery to me lol

[@HunchbackOfNotreJon]

​@TheViveros From the video, it looks like you played the remake. 999 has significant writing changes in the remake. They are across the board for the worse. The game required the dual screen format and they compensated for the change of format in the worst ways possible. Like adding exposition dialogue in place of pose, resulting in the characters standing around to describe everything: this is not the case in the DS version.

[@corie3697]

DR spoilers ! before i say anything i want to preface that i’ve only watched the intro, the DR part, Raincode, and the conclusion parts of this video as i haven’t played the other games. so i may have missed something that addressed what i’m about to say. so I wanted to talk about the first trial of danganronpa and a bit of my perspective on why i thought it was a competent chapter and start to the franchise. of course, as others have said, the dying message: I agree it undermines the intelligence of some of the smarter characters, but as was said the CG was not changed from the source. Honestly, this feels like more of a translation error for case legibility (very similar to V3’s 5th trial change of the hand placement in the death tape. V3 has many translation issues, like Momota’s character. tumblr user kokichiouma has a great post about this). Another thing is the point about it not taking very long for someone to start killing. I think the point of the trial coming about this way was to really emphasize the flaws of Maizono. While it may not have served the game as a whole as you argue, I believe the character study of Maizono was what the main point of the trial/mystery was (as what most of DR is- character analysis), on top of it being just an easy tutorial trial. Something that is really interesting is that Maizono plotted/was killed before Monokuma even was able to explain to the group that there would be a class trial that would kill everyone other than her if she won. She and Leon only knew the first 6 rules of the game, the rules 7, 8 and 9 that detail the class trial, the punishments, and “only one can leave” come up during the investigation. I believe that even Monokuma remarks to the traitor later that he was surprised it got started so fast (making the traitor not have to do the first killing). One of the main criticisms of culture that Danganronpa tries to illustrate is the endless pressure of society to go to school and then into the workforce that only exploits you and your talents (especially poignant in Japan I believe). Maizono had worked her entire life for her job, position on society, and band mates and the prospect of possibly losing that drove her to act extremely rashly and to value human life less than her career (Leon and possibly Makoto, who she wouldn’t know what would happen to him if he was found “guilty”). Another part was the subversion of killing Maizono first being almost the point of this trial, not really the mystery itself but what Danganronpa was aiming to say and set expectations by making her the first extremely desperate and selfish killer. Maizono was prominent in marketing, she was framed as the leading girl and the reasons behind her death and why she did it is the emotional core and flaws of her character and the trial. I agree the trial itself wasn’t strong - Leon does feel like a prop at times, reduced to being wasted potential with a violent streak - but I believe the subversion of her character type is what they were going for, setting a brutal, desperate tone for the other characters (not to mention Leon’s brutal execution. Still my favorite, honestly, for how real and guttural it feels). I feel like if you played v3 before this it wouldn’t hit as hard, since that game builds upon past tropes, twists, and character beats as deliberate callbacks to emphasize its own final twist. Kaede being the culprit while being advertised as the main character is basically the same thing DR1 did with Maizono, though with completely different motives. Many people didn’t expect the type of game DR1 was willing to be with its first trial culprit/victim and I think that subversion is what makes it a pretty good first trial to kick off the first game (while arguably V3 did it better, I agree). One last thing, I wanted to ask, would you ever consider making a discord server? I know it would cause more stress because it needs to be run + moderated, so i completely understand why you wouldn’t have one. But i was just curious since I really like your channel topics and your analysis and would love to talk to like minded people, i guess ! srry if that sounds pushy / or if you’ve answered this before!!

[@TheViveros]

I think this is a really good insight! I think if DR1 had been my first game that first trial probably would’ve worked a lot better for me, but I’m also happy to admit that this is possibly more of a personal preference thing. In general, I think complicated stories often work better when they’re willing to throw people into the deep end without feeling the need to explain everything upfront (i.e., the Star Wars original trilogy) because it allows people to more naturally experience how complicated it is - it’s like learning a language by being immersed in it as opposed to learning it in a classroom. I know that’s not everyone’s tastes, and it won’t work for every story, but I think DR1 would’ve benefitted from it. I also think it doesn’t help that V3 does its first trial so well that that becomes a bit of an impossible standard to meet as someone who played that one first. I think for me I didn’t love Sayaka because her and Makoto felt so heavy-handed and uninteresting as a subplot - but again, I just generally don’t like those kinds of stories very much, it’s part of why Junpei and Akane didn’t work for me very well in Zero Escape and that’s just my personal taste. Ultimately I think you’re right that DR1’s first trial was probably a subversion at the time (even though imo it was still made too easy by keeping 11037 as-is and not trying to localize it) and the reason why it doesn’t hit as hard is bc the rest of the series raised the bar further and I played them all within a year of each other rather than spread across most of a decade like most people would have lol As far as a Discord server goes, I definitely do plan on starting one up! I kept on meaning to sit down and get it done last month, but honestly between streaming and schoolwork and this video I just didn’t have the time. It’ll be coming eventually, though! I do want to make sure I have the proper systems in place to moderate it and that’s probably the part that’s making it the hardest to get done, but I’ll get there. Also, highly recommend checking out AI: The Somnium Files since you mentioned you hadn’t played it. The first one is on Steam for $8 right now I think, and it’s really, really worth it. It’s really well-written and has some excellent characterization that I think you’d really enjoy 😊

[@corie3697]

@@TheViveros ty for replying omg:) yeah i definitely think it comes down to personal preference- even as i defend the first trial, i admit i wasn’t a fan of maizono or her reasons even before the killing as the game is super heavy handed trying to make you like her (not to mention the wishy washy reasoning kirigiri uses to tell makoto she actually did care about him and not to just use him). as for throwing the player into a complicated story instead of holding their hand i (as i understand your argument) i believe they were attempting to do this in the first game? at this point, it’s hard to tell because everyone expects these games to be like they are. i’m sure it was really hard hitting when it came out, with everyone’s expectations only being based on the vague trailers. in that way, dr1 has aged a little poorly where it’s sequels excelled. i honestly think that’s kind of interesting to think about - what the game meant at the time is all well and good, but how it’s aged and how it compares now is what people actually see. kind of reminds of your point in the overwatch pride video where you said at the time overwatch did above the bare minimum and was lauded as diverse, in comparison to our social landscape now, where up until june their representation was retconned and stuck into separate media for years. i’m really happy to hear about your server ! of course take your time. i’ve seen other servers put out application forms with questions about past missing experience that has worked well for what it’s worth. sounds good about the game!! i was so excited after v3 i knew i had to see what rain code had to offer ( which i admittedly have not finished completely). after i’m done with that i’ll be sure to check it out!

[@DuskoftheTwilight]

Zero Time Dilemma? More like, Zero time spent on the story! D'ohohoho

[@sonicboom2468]

So for the first trial I never realized that it spelled Leon but looking back it was extremely obvious looking back

[@fillerpoint555]

With regards to V3’s ending, I don’t interpret it as a meta “take that” to the audience in the sense that they’re bad for enjoying the series. I think it’s more a criticism of what the series risked becoming, a deconstruction of the “franchise zombie” phenomenon, where something just goes on too long. Think about it, Danganronpa in universe has had 53 seasons!!! Not even The Simpsons has gone on that long, and its decline due to just going on too long is well documented at this point. It also makes the more outlandish plot points resonate much harder; Kirumi being a substitute prime minister? A meteor shower apocalypse? Throwing in random connections to the original arc? It reeks of writers throwing random shit at the wall and seeing what sticks. Coupled with how there hasn’t been a new game in the franchise since then baring a spin-off which feels more like a “here’s everyone living happily ever after as a reward for their suffering” type deal, I feel like the team just wanted to try and end things before they could go down the endless sequelitis hole that the in universe team got stuck in.

[@pandanoko729]

I know I’m 8 months late for this, just found your channel through the Inescapable video but I just wanted to talk about ZTD and why it’s so bad and forced in multiple ways in terms of the story. And that’s because the creators had no choice but to rush everything. After VLR, there was no funding or backing to create any more Zero Escape games, as it very much felt like the story was being set up for more than just a trilogy, maybe a game about Free the Soul and the Myrmadons and a game specifically about Radical-6. The only reason we got ZTD is because of Project Blue Bird, a revival project by the fans so that they can donate money to bring the game back. Even then, there wasn’t enough funding and the developers knew that so they had no choice but to tie up as many loose ends as possible, no matter how sloppy it may be. This leading to several Deus Ex Machinas, the main 3 of Delta, The alien transporters, and the unnamed religious fanatic. The religious fanatic was never once mentioned, not even given a face or name in ZTD, and now he’s suddenly the reason why Radical-6 even exists in the first place, the root of the events of VLR, and the reason why there is a final good ending to the series (his existence bringing the cast together in order to prevent either them or radical-6 from being released) . The transporters being the answer of who’s Phi’s mother (the one who gave her the broach), why Delta exists, why we have Junpei and Akane in the VLR timeline when they’re very much executed which that timeline itself felt contrived. And Delta being the reason why characters make out-of-character decisions, why Free the Soul exists, the other reason why Radical-6 exists, why Akane has their robes at the end of VLR (Btw fuck Akane, they did perfect work on what Uchikoshi describes himself as intentionally the ‘worst heroine in existence’) and basically being a god by having Delta have the foresight for so many events such as him being dead in a timeline while Junpei and Akane are alive and finding the transporters hidden from them where that prerecorded message was left. Because they knew they wouldn’t get the funding for anymore games they had to pile everything into 1 game and answer as many questions as possible and making ZTD a schlocky and convoluted mess. Which in the end, makes me feel incredibly sad that we couldn’t get more VLR quality games and probably better if not for a tiny budget and general lack of support.

[@roboticminer8843]

Oh hey, someone else who arbitrarily started with V3

[@shiningdragon1187]

Personally the only games in this video I can comment on is AI as those are the games I’ve played, I saw a video on the ending twist to 999, and saw major portions of my sisters play though of both rain code and every danganronpa. But I personally can’t get myself to like Nivana initiative, Spoilers for both AI: for those browsing and don’t want those, I’ll try to be vague, but I’m bad at subtlety. the game itself is good, and the games primary twist is very well done, but to facilitate that twist they had to rewrite Mizuki’s backstory in while admit ably a small way (I can get why people don’t notice or care), it irks me in how it messes with some of her best moments in AI 1, she has a lot of found family themes, but that semi goes out the window when she’s adopted, (even if she doesn’t know herself, this is myopic but it ate at me the entire time after it was revealed), and it was all done so that the twist can happen. Only for the climax to be about saving the world (even calling in characters who barely mattered), when the stakes of AI 1 were more or less all personal (and I liked that, it also made one of the epilogue joke frustrate me with how it was just treated as a pretty unfunny joke at the end of AI2), it just jumps the shark on its own rather then being force to jump it by inheriting all the crazy plot elements of AI1. Another pretty minor complaint is that Marco doesn’t exist at all, like why not, they don’t even dignify the 3rd AI ball with a catalogue entry. The linear structure grated on me, and the writing actively annoyed me, like the twist is great and well done but the compromises to accommodate it had me hating the game more by the end. Those who enjoyed AI1 for other reasons then me would enjoy AI 2 a lot more, although I do like their choice of “master mind”, (side bar: Mizuki Inheriting all of Renju’s assets makes no sense, but I would leave that alone if the game had not set me into the disfavor ability vortex, this also applies to the other 12 year old who loses their parent but doesn’t move in with their mother or sister and take that last name for the sake of the twist) I wouldn’t hate someone for like Nirvana, but I can’t, it sucked me into a disfavor ability vortex and even thigns I would think are cute or smart are being intrepreted to me as contrived and done only for the twist, like all the red herrings.

[@TheViveros]

I think it's definitely understandable to feel frustrated that Mizuki's story has been retconned a bit, especially because I do think it undermines Shoko's and Renju's narratives in a weird way and makes the first story lose some of its impact. It's definitely a game with a bit of icebox logic, and I do think the first one is the stronger of the two, but it's still pretty solid. The Marco thing did feel like a weird choice, though, and they definitely could've done more with him. I remember when he was first introduced my reaction was like "Oh wow, the first male AI ball so far, *and* they're in Bibi's eye? I wonder how they'll handle that character?" and then they just kinda... didn't. It feels like they didn't really have a proper plan for him for this story and it was a bit of a missed opportunity.

[@velvetphi]

Fun fact about Marco: They actually have a model in the game for them, but it's never used! Also though it was patched, their name was inadvertently spelled 'Maruko' instead in a few places in the EN translation. It kinda seems like they were meant to at least have an appearance or two at some point, but it ended up having to be cut in the end. Also, according to some later comments by Uchikoshi, Marco was intended to be nonbinary; they were even considering a number of neopronouns for the EN translation. Interesting stuff. Also he dunked on a French transphobe that complained by quoting French philosophy, because Kotaro Uchikoshi is a madman that talks exactly like the characters he writes.

[@piratekitty2668]

One thing I will say I like about V3’s ending is that it completely opens up the possibilities that if and when they decide to make the next game in the series that game can be about literally just about anything and they can do pretty much whatever with it, you can certainly criticize it for being kinda lazy to end things that way but making the game’s ending so bonkers and leaving it so completely open ended at the end does open up the possibilities that they can do pretty much whatever now

[@Fruits136]

After watching the stream of 999 its very funny to hear you say that you did enjoy it. The frustration as you got near the end being fresh in my mind That being said i also enjoyed myselfwatching it so i get what you mean

[@magentasky234]

The plot of ZTD sounds like my brain when I have a seizure.

[@Dragonboy55564]

Spoilers for 999 (zero escape). For 999, stuff like Alice and the nature of the boat isn't important because the point of is to be a red herring. The mystery about Zero's motivations and what kind of world this is makes the morphogenetic field stuff seem like just another red herring. It does cause the story to be weaker in retrospect, but I think it makes the mystery about what facts are important or not sufficiently obfuscating, and it can cause the players to create wild hypotheses before they reach the end.

[@rosstemby1347]

Thank you for making the video of the games you recommend to everyone that is always without fail ignored! Fuck Ota! More games need to end in full character dance numbers. These games are best in Japanese too and worth a replay to just experience that.

[@rosstemby1347]

Oh you’re wrong on ztd and I haven’t got to the rain code part yet but it fucking suuuuucccckkkkeeed. So easy, boring and predictable. Easily the worst game in the list. I forgive you for your wrong opinion however.

[@rosstemby1347]

BOOMSHANKA

[@rosstemby1347]

Oh and I’m so old i had to wait for each of these games to be released. Sorry, too much internet comment etiquette

[@Fedule]

I guess I'm late to this but hey. It was kinda wild watching this video because in general I'm in complete agreement with the broad conclusions about what games are more good and more bad than others and yet still want to argue a ton of single individual points. Here are some: DRv3: It plays a very dangerous game in which the sheer quantity of contrivance is supposed to be a clue; this is a series that has _gone on too long_ , that had a breakout hit and a well-received sequel but is in danger of becoming all people actually _want_ , spending 50 seasons building up silly gimmicks, outlandish character traits, obligatory cliches and circular lore. I never read it as really being particularly hostile to the player, more that it asks, increasingly openly, whether we're really not satiated by now, whether it really can hold up through so many repetitions, whether we actually want to do it again. It's not a broadside _against_ Danganronpa, it's just the end of it. The idea it's _as wrong_ to want more Danganronpa games IRL as to want the in-universe show to go on seems a stretch; the non-fictional fictional characters are just a metaphor. The show's over (whether Rain Code being so plainly derived from Danganronpa conflicts with this intention is... up for debate). It is, of course, therefore fascinating to hear from people who _started_ with v3, _especially_ if they did so after hearing of its disconnection from the others. ZTD: The game suffers enormously under a horrific amount of bullshit but the arbitrariness of the decisions made isn't one of them IMO. Many are open about how unfair they are (thanks Zero) and more importantly their unfairness is contextualised; the given example of the three dice roll is explicitly there to tie in to the cited Anthropic Principle, to drive home that much of what's happening only needs to give rise to the _possibilities_ of outcomes that each could tie in to what will later need to be true. I don't know about your case but the results of the votes are accounted for correctly but use an odd single-state system that combined with the unclear nature of the fragments can sometimes lead to unexpected results, but also, as you note, the fragments being experienced out of order and context and by people with no memory is part of the theory. The Delta twist is extremely stupid and not really earned or meaningful but it's accompanied by another that is all of those things; the door of truth and the true timeline reveal, arguably a precursor for Nirvana Initiative's trick. I'm absolutely not here to not be at least kind of a hater on ZTD because it is nothing if not extremely nonsensical but there's a theory at work there. AI:NI: The twist is pretty great, all things considered, especially with respect to how it changes perceptions on a replay (the game is also stuffed with details that make replays hilarious, especially the very first four theories Mizuki can float when she discovers the body in the intro). There's really only one actual problem with it: it doesn't matter to any of the characters. It's revealed to the player directly, through Mama, who then immediately forgets it, and it plays no role in the eventual resolution of... anything. There's an interpretation that Ryuki might himself be experiencing events a little out of order as part of his breakdown but I'm not convinced; I think if that was intended it would have been exposited. Don't get me wrong it's a great video. I just. Argue these things.

[@noahwomack729]

Some context for why ZTD is the way it is: VLR and the 3rd ZE game were actually written simultaneously, but after VLR was a commercial failure in japan, the 3rd game was cancelled. Years later, a crowdfunding campaign was ran to fund the 3rd game, but Uchi threw out the original script and started from scratch, but as he was both head writer and director, with inexperienced writers under him, and a massive time crunch (i believe they barely had a year to make ZTD) the script ended up as a complete mess, not to mention the asinine puzzles and jank animation.

[@noahwomack729]

We can also tell themat ZTD was not the original sequel because there's no mention of the character from the secret ending of VLR, and I think also from stuff in VLR, we know Junpei and Akane aren't supposed to be there, or at least Akane. Perosnally i find ZTD to be amusingly bad, it's kind of a so bad its good thing for me.

[@sambeckettcat]

I think the reason V3’s ending falls flat is because people take it at face value when it’s not meant to be. A major theme of the entire game was lies, so why wouldn’t the ending, itself, be a lie? It’s meant to be debated, as finding a genuine answer is kind of impossible. Even the final villain’s reasoning for saying the original stories are fake is flawed. She’s the ultimate cosplayer, and she demonstrates that she can swap outfits in seconds perfectly. Who’s to say she couldn’t just make it look like she has hives to convince us she can’t play real people? This would even fit with the twist after twist aspect, trying to confuse the player about which story is real, or maybe they’re all fake even. I honestly find that interestkng

[@wardrobewings8000]

Out of those 4 series I have played only DR and ZE games. IMHO the problem with telling unhinged stories is that the writer is constantly dancing on the edge of the blade when it comes to not breaking the reader's suspension of disbelief. Take for example Trigger Happy Havoc- before the reveal I figured out that Junko was alive and she was the mastermind, but I was curious how the writer would handle that. And up until this point, I was happy to go along with all anime nonsense like for example Byakuya's family..._everything_ because while unhinged I could conceptually get how that would fit in the worldbuilding presented so far. Then the reveal came and Junko confirmed that *she* pretty much dominoed massacre in one school into a post-apocalyptic scenario. I had to put down the controller and ask WTF at this point. Because if Junko said she was a *member* of the group that orchestrated the massacre and many other events I could accept that. But saying that one teenager causing a massacre in a school caused a societal collapse was a push too far. The writer overplayed his hand and instead of enjoying the unhinged story I was retroactively questioning everything that came before that moment. I ended up finishing THH with a bad taste in my mouth and moved on to DR2:GD and while I enjoyed it to a point the game further explaining what Junko did pre-THH just made me roll my eyes so much. At no point I really got into the story and ended up speed-reading through lots of dialogue just so I could enjoy investigations and trials. I imagine I would enjoy DRV3 way more (even with how unnecessarily overcomplicated the plot of the last part of the game was) if I wasn't dreading yet another jumpscare from freaking Junko Enoshima.

[@toumabyakuya]

10:32 It actually makes sense if we take the context of the game into account: They are Japanese teens. Believe it or not, it actually wasn't that weird for Japanese teens to not know how our letters look like till way latter in their lives, after all, they already have to deal with their own symbol-like language to begin with, so latin lettering is not the first thing that would come to mind for them. So it does make sense that most of the characters wouldn't recognize Leon's name as the bloody writting till it was pointed to them. And even those that should know what our letters look like have an excuse for not seeing them immediately: Sayaka is dead, Junko is also dead, Chihiro wouldn't pay too much attention to the blood, Fukawa cannot see blood, Togami didn't investigate at all and Kirigiri did actually noticed but thought that everybody else would catch on soon enough.

[@TheViveros]

For Japanese players, I think that's more understandable. But if you're playing the game in English, then all the in-game signage and text is all translated to English as well. Obviously this is a translation for the player's benefit, but it means that you're used to running around and seeing everything in English and the characters all handle it perfectly fine, and then this one specific time the characters are not familiar with English characters. Even if it makes sense for the characters to not understand it, it's still a frustrating experience as a player who knows the solution and isn't able to just say it out loud for the next couple hours of trying to investigate and try the case. It's just a puzzle that would've benefited from some sort of localization - the challenge of it makes sense for a Japanese player, but it doesn't translate well to the English version.

[@toumabyakuya]

@@TheViveros *"Even if it makes sense for the characters to not understand it, it's still a frustrating experience as a player who knows the solution and isn't able to just say it out loud for the next couple hours of trying to investigate and try the case."* Sorry, but I don't agree. For me, if it makes sense that the characters wouldn't understand something, then it is fine for me if they don't and take a while to understand. *"It's just a puzzle that would've benefited from some sort of localization"* How could they have localized it differently? They couldn't. It being in English makes too much sense to change.

[@KManVTuber]

Gonna start off by saying I loved this video! Just about every opinion for each game (that I played) I agreed with or gained new insight on and overall it was an interesting hearing your thoughts and experiences on all these games! I do have the opinions of one game I completely disagree with that I wanna talk about, and that's AINI. Honestly, AINI for me could be described in two words: "Missed Potential" Reason I say this is that while I agree a lot of the twists and story beats it goes for are very interesting on paper and can be genuinely engaging in the moment of playing it, the whole time I was playing it a lot of the choices made I assumed would have some great payoff to them, but by the completely unserious end followed by a dance number to a far worse song than AI's I realised that none of the payoff I was hoping for got delivered in a narratively satisfying way. [SPOILER WARNING FOR NIRVANA INITIATIVE] I think the biggest example of this is the big twist regarding the timeline. Honestly, its an extremely cool twist on paper and I love how it completely shakes up the player's understanding of what's happening and also allows for some cool replayability where you might see all the hints sprinkled around on the second playthrough, however the delivery of this twist is extremely unsatisfying in retrospect for one reason: why is this twist simply handed to you in full through "Mama" (or rather, Frayer(?) speaking through Mama)? We have our resident unreliable narrator who's been setup from the beginning in Ryuki, why isn't it delivered through his perspective? By having the twist be talked at you, the player, by Mama/Frayer, it ruins a lot of potential impact it could have potentially had. Imagine if Ryuki slowly came to realise himself that the time of events wasn't how it seemed and the reveal happened as character's questioned his understanding of the timeline. Instead, the twist is not for the characters but for the players. Its artificial and serves no purpose besides shocking us playing the game, yet it could have been an amazing moment for Ryuki's character! Maybe there's some galaxy brain Uchikoshi BS going on here with this twist that I simply can't comprehend or missed, or maybe there's some interlocking reference to VLR/ZTD here (those and RAIN being the only games in here I haven't played yet and know nothing about), but as far as I'm concerned it feels like they had the perfect opportunity to make this twist narratively satisfying in a way that personally effects one of our main characters, but instead its a twist that feels cool for a brief moment before you realise it feels kinda pointless in the grand scheme of things. If anything, this twist just kinda feels like Uchikoshi trying to one-up his previous twists but tripping over his own feet in an attempt to do so, but maybe that's just me. I got several other issues as well ranging from Mizuki/Bibi (I personally dislike Bibi's inclusion in this story and how little is resolved with her character), Kizuna feeling pointless, the Amame twist feeling anticlimactic, Lien's stalker behaviour being rewarded instead of discouraged etc. I could honestly go on and on over various big and little complaints I piled up as I thought about AINI more, but I'd be writing a full-on essay if I did LOL Despite all its flaws though, AINI was a fun game that included some amazing elements (e.g., Ryuki/Tama is my favourite duo and his path up until the twist is mostly really good and the gameplay is a direct improvement of AI) but overall feels like it missed way too many golden opportunities it set up for itself and couldn't stick the landing. All of this is my opinion ofc, I understand there are loads of people who enjoy this game, I just sadly couldn't enjoy it as an overall package due to how unsatisfying it all felt by the end.

[@gracegrrl007]

listen Zero Time Dilemma is confusing and weird and by no means a good game. however. Mira looks LITERALLY IDENTICAL to one of my OCs which means I am legally obligated to love her and sink time into this game even though she's categorically the worst. i support women's wrongs when those women are or look like one of my children.

[@HopeIsADrug11037]

i always just pretend V3's ending doesn't exist

[@ForrestFox626]

I don't

[@WithASock]

im really surprised to hear such a positive assessment of nirvana initiative. true its strength is very much within not shackling itself to the previous game's gimmicks, but that seemed more like a simple product of the first game not Having a strong gimmick aside from the things that facilitated the body swapping twist. so aside from that possible strength, it seriously fails to live up to the previous game's strength of mystery with the timeline twist. in terms of set up, pay off and execution the body swapping was masterful, but the timeline twist was so contrived i think its just as bad as the Q reveal. For the player to SLOG through hours of a mystery that doesnt make sense and to be told that THEIR perspective of it was arbitrarily incorrect? thats not clever! theres no meaning in the story being presented to the player this way except to confuse, and unlike twists in these other games, there no character intention behind it. its just the game reminding you its a game and that it can lie to you about the story its presenting to you. in a way thats actually... also worse than the v3 ending. that story at least wanted to convey that on its own terms its more than just fiction, and its a theme. for nirvana initiative its like 'the world is a simulation!!' and youre like 'i know. its a video game.' And then it shows you that twist and says 'see?? its all just arbitrary and designed!' and again youre like 'yes? and now i dont have any reason to trust the info THIS game gives me. so i will go enjoy a better designed simulation.' Seriously, if it were not for ZTD i would say its the worst entry on this list.

[@seanosh689]

Ok, time to block out my next two hours.

[@oddpotato3626]

Someone has probably already said this but the first case is undermined by the english letters cause they are way more obvious to a native english speakers

[@xyippee]

yeah…. which is also sort of a problem because in english, sayaka writes leon’s name but for some reason nobody can figure it out despite being supposedly familiar with the english language, but in the japanese version or any other translation it makes you wonder why tf would sayaka write leon’s name in upside down english letters lol

[@Gregsusername]

i played ZTD got to the ending where Mira's back story is revealed. and quit because it was simply the dumbest piece of writing i had ever heard... honestly super glad i stopped there

[@TheViveros]

I can’t remember the order of things after all this time but honestly any instance of “I had to experience any amount of Mira and/or Eric and that’s what made me put the game down forever” is a valid one. I wouldn’t say I love every other character in all of Zero Escape but Q-Team really went 0 for 3(/4).

[@Mockingdragon]

I have sooo many feelings about Danganronpa v3. I'm like...genuinely mad sometimes about how perfectly it foreshadows its big twists. Never even mind the bait and switch protagonist (which I was mad about as a female player who wanted to have a girl to play) and the entire ending (which I thought could have made more sense if it went harder). I remember playing the game and almost giving up on it because of how absolutely ridiculous many of the characters' backstories were....and then finding out that was intentional, to show how the franchise had deteriorated by season 53. If you set out to fail and succeed, what have you done? Was it a good idea to intentionally make bad art? Is that good art? Re: the ending, I maintain that it doesn't make any sense to tell them "you don't exist because we wiped your memories". They still have people out in the world who knew the old them, knowing what happened could and should motivate them to get out and learn about who they used to be. "You don't exist because you're an AI hologram in a hard-light projection field inside this school, you literally can't leave" would have messed with their heads SO WELL and made so much more sense than trying to justify even 5-10 seasons' worth of Real Ultimate Fiction. (How many people REALLY could you find willing to volunteer to probably die for...the chance to be on TV? No actual reward? Dying in memory/personality even if they survive?)

[@Mockingdragon]

I honestly do find it SO interesting and valuable to contrast ZTD with Somnium Files. It's not like the technology in Somnium is that much less ridiculous, but when I found out the truths in that game it was a moment of excited understanding, and quickly flashing back in my own head to the moments of foreshadowing. When I found out the truths in ZTD I shouted "NO!" and immediately started thinking of reasons it didn't work.

[@sambeckettcat]

I disagree with case 1 of Danganronpa being Lackluster. I was floored by it myself, as it subverted a lot of tropes. With Sayaka being heavily coded towards being your sidekick/love interest, and Leon, to me anyway, felt like the hotheaded guy who’d become your best friend. Then it all gets flipped on its head, which felt like the game telling me that nothing will go as expected. (Also I was so in shock about Sayaka’s death that I just took 11037 at face value and didn’t look close enough to tell it was letters, and later on actively refused to acknowledge it was Leon and struggled to get it)

[@cryguy0000]

No Crystar mention? I'm sad

[@hexedcupid]

1:39 yet?? oh yeah i can’t wait fa those 🤭

[@TheOpticalMouse]

I like this guy but I have to watch at .75x speed because he talks so fucking fast, my poor ADHD brain cannot physically understand what he is saying.

[@Ziizoe]

I'm surprised how much you hate Zero Time Dilemma. Don't get me wrong, it's my least favorite story of the 3 and belongs as the worst of the 3, but I still really liked most of it. I feel like they went about saying "life's not fair" in a pretty fair way, rigging randomness in the players' favor for the gun and the dice and more shows that it's unfair for the characters in the story than the player, you don't need to roll the dice 1000 times, just 3 times, if it were me making the game it wouldn't need to be a 99.9% fail rate thing and it'd take 2 tries like the gun, but I understand the point is that the characters theoretically did need to roll it that many times, and I feel the purpose of those events in the story actually make sense. Delta has to have both instances happen in order for his plan to recreate the timeline of VLR and another timeline that leads to them all surviving and I think the idea of randomness causing a timeline split and being necessary for a plan to work to be an interesting concept that I've never seen done elsewhere and is mostly well executed in this game in my opinion. I will say I already liked the 4 and 1/2 returning characters to begin with, Akane's 10 minute rants at inopportune times made me laugh and I quote "do you know about morphogenetic fields?" sometimes, so the only thing that bothered me in this game was her interactions with Junpei because he's a moody butthead all game for no reason, but in my opinion Carlos made of for Junpei being his worst self in this game, so I enjoyed C group overall I don't think I need to explain Phi and Sigma because you didn't say you didn't like them, but Diana was the character I was most curious about going in so I was automatically invested in D group And Q group I found Mira annoying, Eric is the worst, and "Q" is exists... I literally played as much of the game as possible without playing as group Q because I had zero motivation to get to know these annoying randos. The excuse to include Mira and Eric was trash too and giving them the power to SHIFT last minute was dumb, I personally assumed Carlos was picked because Delta saw he had potential to tap into "the field" because there's not really another reason for him specifically to have been picked if I recall, and Dianna is known to have given birth to 2 kids who can, and VLR tells us that having a bunch of ESPers together boosts their powers which explains Junpei and Akane as well as how everyone else learned so fast. but back to group Q, they singlehandedly make me hesitant to recommend someone who's played the first 2 games to spend $20 on the 3rd. I wasn't a fan of the real Q, but honestly it was the most interesting thing to happen to group Q and I find the idea of someone being responsible for the set up of their own parents giving birth to them to be an interesting parallel to 999's idea of Akane being responsible for the set up of Akane herself being saved by Junpei even if it doesn't make as much sense because he can't SHIFT or communicate with the future and just masterminds an insane plan in 1 go, but my suspension of disbelief goes pretty far in the moment while watching a story unfold. I feel like Delta is hinted at in just about as many times as Sigma being old was, but I don't think it was executed as well, but it's pretty hard to mention a 4th person in the room without calling suspicion to it and for that I will say they did a passable job. My biggest plot related issue is the number of paradoxes they create in this game. They don't even feel intentional because I don't remember them ever bringing up the boot-strap paradox and it happens like you said like 6 times or something. I can take Delta coming from nothing, but Phi's brooch made me so annoyed because I legit wanted to know where it came from and it came from herself which came from herself, which came from herself. The reason I don't think any change to the story or characters would have made me like ZTD more than 999 and VLR is due to the actual structure of the story. I specifically went by group in chronological order of what I had unlocked so I could follow their storylines the best I could and it was 13 hours of either seemingly unconnected cutscenes or puzzle rooms (which were the only thing keeping me going for team Q) until the last 7 hours or so where there was like an hour or 2 of cutscenes where I finally understood what was happening, a puzzle room, then 5 straight hours of just watching the plot happen. I acknowledge I went through it the "wrong way" but if a non linear story causes there to be so many confusing ways to get through it there should be a little more structure. If I could wipe my memory of the game and know 1 thing, it'd be to go off the flowchart instead. If I had to come up with a way to make the story progression better it'd probably just be getting rid of the memory wiping thing altogether outside of the first scene because it kinda needs it and then force you to play events in order, because there's no reason to be able to play as group D when both group C and Q have their events play out before D even wakes up. I think that would likely make it a lot easier to follow and a lot harder to get lost in what's going on if they really wanted this form of non linear story telling. Honestly I think the biggest reason I was able to enjoy this game was that I'm willing to suspend my disbelief pretty far for a fictional story, especially in Sci-Fi, and this story pushes a little too far even for me at some points (particularly the end) but it isn't a game I regret buying and playing, I enjoyed it at the time, got my money's worth of playtime, and I liked... most of the twists... some more than others, and that's enough for me personally. -also Sean is never referred to as Q, only fillers for a name like "kid" until Sean is revealed to be his name. that was actually one of the few things I thought was interesting in team Q, that the only reason you're lead to believe his name is Q is the framing-

[@ocarinalover1214]

ZTD has the most ass pulls but unfortunately that's the only way they could've tied up the story since they wrote themselves into a corner. Wish they would've made some sort of sequel instead

[@enclinker7951]

It’s interesting to see such a differing opinion on 999. I adore the game for the same reason why you dislike it.

[@mrbeebeebee]

Tbh, I couldn't stand Date in The Somnium Files, but that might tie in with my general distaste for perverted characters, and I think the game really couldn't decide whether or not it wanted Date to be like that or not. Too many times in the game, during a shootout, dirty mags allowed Date to immediately settle it, even in otherwise dire moments, and it really ruined my immersion. I liked the other characters in The Somnium Files for the most part (Ota my enemy), but it couldn't make up for how messy the revelations and timelines felt. (I'm still baffled by Iris's alien invasion route or whatever). However, I did really like the ending and the final twist was interesting, it just got there extremely clumsily in my opinion. This all to say, I haven't played it's sequel yet, as the first game killed my motivation to do so, and it could entirely change my opinion of the series, but I think it was a step too far backwards from Spike Chunsoft's other games. Also! To anyone reading this, if you enjoyed it, I'm very happy for you! This comment is really just to express my frustrations, cause I was shocked when Viveros praised it (mainly Date the protag) so highly.

[@mrbeebeebee]

I also wanted to add that I really enjoyed this video! I think Viveros made a lot of good points, especially in regards to how the first games of Zero Escape and Danganronpa focused a lot on exposition and how the second game of each series is so well beloved because of how they settled into their niche and were able to work with the player's pre-existing knowledge! Also, revisiting my feelings on The Somnium Files, I think I would have been a lot more okay with the game if it didn't switch between silly and dramatically serious so jarringly and frequently. I touched on this in my first comment, but even during high stakes shootouts, there would be a Date pervert joke, and that not only messed up the moment, but made it even harder for me to care about Date when more of his backstory was revealed. I really hope that the series does something similiar to Danganronpa and Zero Escape, and the second game is a lot better because it has a more solid idea of what it wants to be. Sorry if these messages seem overly negative or ranty, I don't usually comment on things online but these series are things I feel very strongly about! I'm mostly just happy to see them being discussed, and ultimately happy that each one has people that enjoy them for their own reasons!

[@TheViveros]

I think that’s very fair, I don’t usually go for these kinds of characters either. I don’t know what worked better about Date but I think Aiba did a lot to make it much more enjoyable. The sequel focuses more on Mizuki and Ryuki, who’s new, so if Date was a hurdle to enjoying the first one I think you’d really like the second one.

[@TheViveros]

Also don’t worry about seeming negative, I love Somnium Files but I think there’s room for critique. Personally, I really enjoy the jarring tone shifts - I think it’s fun to go from lighthearted silly jokes to a very serious moment and it adds to this game’s unhinged dynamic, but it’s another thing where I can see why it doesn’t work for people. Date would definitely be insufferable without the rest of the cast around him reigning him back in, but I think that his dynamics with Aiba and Mizuki in particular helps it work.

[@2-question-marks]

45:45 should I ask for more context on this or

[@anarcthulhu]

For me, I played Danganronpa v3 when it first released on vita. And I was absolutely starched to the characters. The first chapter was incredible. I was genuinely devastated when Kaede was found guilty. The art was incredible, I loved everything about it. But I hated the ending so much it ended up making the game feel worse than trigger happy havoc for me. The ending ruined it for me so much that when I replay the Danganronpa games, I get hesitant when going to v3 and end up not replaying it because I just don’t want to get invested again for that ending. The ending just feels like a slap in the face to anybody who has actively played the previous games, or hell, the anime, which I hate but I digress. I can get why if it was your first one, it might be harder to dislike. But it was just such a waste in my opinion.

[@TheRiskyforever]

to be totally from this danganronpa seems just as bad the third zero escape game. them having the main character plot an entire murder without you knowing, the first character to die actually being the mastermind making all speculation useless, all the weird hajime stuff etc etc. it sounds past insane into a little ridiculous to me 😭

[@toumabyakuya]

39:35 Am sorry man, but I cannot agree here. I feel that cutting on a lot of dialogue would be detrimental to the game. A good amount of stuff is supossed to be symbolical and to foreshadow what the characters will go though. There's a reason why a *sister* ship was used to begin with, because it helps represent one specific character the best.

[@TheViveros]

I don't think it's a problem to have these things be in the game, but I do think it could've been delivered more succinctly. I don't want them to necessarily scrap the narrative beats that they hit (mostly) but I do think that there's a way to hit them without beating a dead horse - when I was playing it I remember having a lot of moments where I was rolling my eyes like "Yes, I get it! Ice-9! Can we *please* move onto the next thing?" because it just drags a bit. That's why my main argument was that it needs an editor, because that's what an editor is meant to do. They're supposed to come in and tell them "Alright, you've made your point, you need to move onto the next thing" or "Is there a way to get this same message across more concisely?" and I know a lot of people who've bounced right off of 999 because of it.

[@toumabyakuya]

@@TheViveros *"but I do think it could've been delivered more succinctly."* That would be boring. Just bringing up a topic and not explaining it would have felt as if the game expects the player to do some homework to understand its symbolism. *"when I was playing it I remember having a lot of moments where I was rolling my eyes like "Yes, I get it! Ice-9! Can we please move onto the next thing?" because it just drags a bit."* Sorry, but I never experienced that, at all. I was always curious about what next thing they would waste 40 minutes explaining to me because it was always interesting stuff. *"They're supposed to come in and tell them "Alright, you've made your point, you need to move onto the next thing" or "Is there a way to get this same message across more concisely?""* That would have just hurt the overall experience, not improve upon it. *"and I know a lot of people who've bounced right off of 999 because of it."* Thing is that those people are not part of the demography this franchise was aiming for. It was aiming for people like me that love to read for hours without end.

[@TheViveros]

You're misrepresenting what I was saying. I never said that they should just bring up the topic, never explain it, and then tell you to go Google it or something - I said that they could and should have edited them down to cut the fluff so they could hit harder. There's a middle ground between one single sentence that just bluntly says the information you're expected to retain and a thirty minute monologue that repeats itself over and over and over again, especially when you've already heard one before, and especially when a ticking clock is supposedly a big motivating factor. I enjoy the info dumps when done well, but 999's could've been greatly improved. And I know it can be done, because VLR does find that middle ground. It doesn't abandon the monologues, it just tightens them up.

[@toumabyakuya]

@@TheViveros *"I said that they could and should have edited them down to cut the fluff so they could hit harder."* And what I said was that none of those moments felt like fluff to me. All of them felt like they took the appropiate time and nothing more. *"There's a middle ground between one single sentence that just bluntly says the information you're expected to retain and a thirty minute monologue that repeats itself over and over and over again, especially when you've already heard one before, and especially when a ticking clock is supposedly a big motivating factor."* Again, my problem with this argument is that I never felt that it took longer than needed. I felt that every single symbolism brought up in 999 took the appropiate amount of time and not one extra line. I simply cannot agree with you here.

[@Galaxy_123]

Yt have video have vid longer than 12 hr

[@TheViveros]

KZbin used to allow it, and any longer videos uploaded prior to the change are allowed to stay up, but you can't upload any new videos longer than 12 hours and they won't record anything beyond the first 12 hours in the VOD for a livestream if it runs longer than that.

[@blissfulstatic2563]

13:29 DR1 spoilers THE FIVE SURVIVORS??? i must have missed the part where asahina exploded somehow