Spirit Island's Learning Curve "Problem" (feat. The Brothers Murph)

[@LumberchukStudios]

I love this game, my most played game...as a result I've taught it a lot. Biggest thing about this game is knowing your players, some people want more help on their turns while others want to figure it out themselves. Second thing to keep in mind is the game length. This is a long game, you need to streamline explaining or risk taking 5 hours to finish a single game! I start with giving players a character choice (steering them towards earth and lightning if possible) and explain what token presence icon refers too (literally everyone assume its the cardboard one, not the wooden disk). Then help them place the starting presence My usual explanation starts with a brief turn overview explaining what to do at each stage. My main goal here is to plant the seed of slow vs fast powers and how the different invader actions work. Taking too long here is pointless because most of the information will be out of context and thus be forgotten. I then quickly jump into the first turn of the game, giving players advice on the best growth starting action. Next we play our powers together and I use this time to explain the different card keywords. Then we move resolve fast powers and the idea of slow vs fast starts to sink in. Invaders do their thing, and I use this time to explain what we should be thinking about with our next turn (turn their attention to the ravaging land type) Fear cards and victory/ loss condition explanation happens when rules interacting with them comes up. Usually it takes 2 full turns to actually get through all the rules, bu at least by that point we have played 2 full turns (instead of just starting) Depending on the person (and the spirit they chose) some players may need more direct help, but in these cases i try to keep the help to a 1 on 1 chat while the other players try and make their own decisions. At the start and end of every turn I like to give an overview of problem areas to get the gears in their heads turning. In this way I can help our strategy as a team, without directly controlling each player.

[@peterloft6281]

Great advice

[@Nominrath]

Just played this with someone who never played this and another player who kept trying to convince that player that Spirit Island is a “simple game”. I kept saying, “No. Don’t try to mislead him like that. You’re going to make him feel dumb because it’s a ‘simple’ game and we’re still getting our asses kicked. He’ll feel much better knowing that it IS a hard and complicated game and that it takes some time to understand and get it.” This game is like a grandfather clock: it looks simple enough on the outside; the face tells the time, it chimes on the hour, etc. But when you get into it, you find out it’s extremely complex and demands some serious work.

[@RTFM]

Definitely agree. I try to avoid telling people that games are simple in any situation. If I'm right, they'll figure it out once they get started. If I'm wrong, as you said, they'll just feel bad. Spirit Island is certainly not a simple game, which can be hard to remember if you've played it a bunch and are used to the systems.

[@Pit1993x]

Interesting. The way I go about this is that while I do tell people that it is kind of a simple game in the way that most of its mechanics aren't that difficult to understand and they usually are emergend from the very themes they are supposed to represent, but there are a LOT of mechanics and the difficult part is to internalize it all and keep the different steps in mind but once you get the hang of it, it's pretty straight forward. ^^ Not saying your approach is wrong just interesting to see how we got to the same result (avoiding people feeling dumb or left out) through different approaches. :)

[@malumkharn8569]

In my experience with Spirit Island, it's really difficult for there to be a "Quarterback", due to all the choices each player has and the simultaneous play of the spirits. It's one of the things I really like about the game, as everyone can contribute to strategies, but one person can't take others turns for them (like in other games like Pandemic). Great video, Shea! The how to play video you did for this game was fantastic. And I'm a fan of the cameos and crossovers being done with The Brothers Murph. Keep up the great work! :)

[@RTFM]

Thanks so much! The Murphs and I love working together, so I'm sure it'll keep happening as long as we can.

[@dan_wiz]

I agree with this on quarterbacking... I think there is so much going on in this game (especially with 4 players) that quarterbacking just "can't" happen efficiently. There is too much spirit specific action and too much on the board to have 1 person in control.

[@rpesel]

We played yesterday . It was me and two new players . At the start there were a lot of questions and bad choices , but as the game progressed they started to see the combinations of cards and you could just hear when they were exited to find a cool combo. Fun game.

[@jkennedyV]

I think it isn't as much a qb issue. There's far too much going on. I will provide general strategy tips such as "can you take care of this area?" To help with learning curve, I always start EZ mode, with no initial Explore. That seems to give new players that extra round to get a feel for it before it becomes crucial turns.

[@RTFM]

I definitely think the first turn can be a little rough, so the no initial explore makes a lot of sense. I like that in the expansion they add disease to the space with the city, so no matter what card flips, that space won't get worse.

[@jkennedyV]

@@RTFM Yeah, but I wouldn't ever play expansion with newbies. Too much extra layers.

[@Pokebro921]

I've definitely played this game enough to the point where I could quarterback a four player game. I mean, I've played four spirits solo. I just choose not to since I am trying to share a game and experience I love with friends. While the goal is still enjoyment, I'm not necessarily trying to challenge myself personally. I let them make decisions and answer questions and just try my best to pull above my weight in case things get rough. Sometimes they end up making it a challenge for me though and that is fun too.

[@Tasarran]

Getting your head around the timing and the rhythm of how the turn sequence goes is the biggest thing in this game.

[@nimonus]

I think Spirit Island does a good job of avoiding Quarterbacking simply because it is so complex. Everyone has so much to focus on, that it is extremely difficult to play for anyone else. Especially since you don't know what is in their hand, and because play is simultaneous. You can't take someone else's turn for them if you have to be taking your own turn at the same time. There are no turns.

[@claireshillabeer9001]

Playing this solo helped me learn without getting too frustrated. Haven't taught it successfully yet though 😆

[@RTFM]

That's a good idea. And if you have trouble teaching it, I did make a video for that...just saying :D

[@Pit1993x]

Agreed. I played my first 7 or so games solo with 2 spirits (about 5 games with the base game and 2-3 with B&C). Then surprisingly my very first multiplayer game was with 6 people of which only I knew how to play. Because you have to use B&C if you're playing with more than 4 we immediately jumped right in. We wre 4 experienced board game players, 1 intermediate and 1 completely new. We decided it would be best for the intermediate and new player to make a team and play one spirit together, so we ended up with a 6 player 5 spirit game. It was a challenge, but I managed that everyone was having a blast and wanted to play again as soon as possible (and also the duo team was pretty quickly getting to the point of autonomously taking their turns and decisions). Even the person completely new to board gaming told me afterwards that she was a bit intimidated by the game at first but my enthusiasm and the way I explained everything and wrapped the players up in the world of spirit island made it super engaging to her. That's the best praise I could have wished for. 😊

[@VictorSteiner]

4:20 and after a few more games you will start to not look at ravages first but already check if getting blight through those might be worth preventing 1-2 builds … I love the game!

[@pocketwatched]

I find that in Spirit Island, "quarterbacking" is the smallest issues of any coop game I'm familiar with in which players are allowed to openly communicate BECAUSE its so heavy. I'm having trouble figuring out what *I* should do, I couldn't possibly fathom trying to figure out what OTHER people should do. It's incredibly enjoyable that it feels like relying on your teammates is truly a necessity, and by the same token, that what you do is really your own agency. And even outside of trusting each other to roughly handle their own areas on the board (at least to start), when I say, "I need helping dealing with [problem]". I shouldn't even specify how the problem should be dealt with, because I don't know how my teammates can best assist me. I just present my issue, and then trust that they'll be able to provide me a solution, be it defending, attacking, pushing/pulling, or any other effect.

[@NovusIgnis]

I just played this with my friend who's never really played a complex board game before and he had a blast. It was a lot for him to take in for sure, but he loved the theme and the way that the cards and the spirit powers fit in with the theme. We followed the beginner help ideas for him and he played Lightning because I figured he'd enjoy feeling like the powerhouse while I played defense and support with Rampant Green. Bonus points for me getting Elemental boon as my first minor power which helped upgrade his innate. Quarterbacking was definitely something I was worried about but it seemed like he didn't mind it as much. He recognized the complexity of the game and welcomed my advice, but ultimately the decision was his and I think he appreciated it. For the first half of the game I was reminding him that ravaging comes first then building and then exploring, but by the second half he was referencing his own rule card and keeping track with the game phases. Ultimately, we cleaned off the last town on the board as a result of a fear card and it took me a second to realize we had won. When I pointed it out to him, the grin he had was worth all 4 hours of us playing. The best part was we never once got another blight beyond the starting blight. After that, I saw how fired up he was to play more so I know I inducted someone new to the hobby.

[@RTFM]

That's awesome! Glad it went so well!

[@Jsleezy_2000]

I just got Spirit Island today. I’m way behind but this is such a good expectation. Makes me feel way more open to learning the game over a few plays. Love Mike and Nick!!

[@RTFM]

It's definitely a game that gets easier the more you play it. After a while it just becomes second nature and you can really start bumping up the difficulty if you want.

[@alexz1299]

Loved the video. Here are my thoughts: Me and my wife just got the game lately and I was quite surprised about how the game didn't feel as heavy as everyone claims. The toughest part was actually setting things up for the first game, because I found the rule book to be quite annoying. But once the game started, in a couple of rounds we just got the general idea. The set of actions to follow isn't complicated, you can see where the invaders are going to ravage, you can see where they are going to build, you understand that you need to prevent it, and therefore just follow common sense Yes, you might feel like you're not helpful enough, that you're making bad decisions and you might not have the best strategy, but that's fine, getting better is part of the experience. Even if one of us was worse and made the team lose, as long as we had fun playing, I don't understand why someone has to feel upset or frustrated about it, it's just a game, you learn from it and use the knowledge gained to do better next time. Even in a game like 7 wonders which is considered very easy to learn, I constantly had to go back to the rule back to understand the icons. In spirit Island after a few rounds I rarely had to clarify anything. We also tend to watch online videos about the game after our first game, to make sure we didn't miss anything or misunderstood a rule, but seems like we played as intended. Even Gloomhaven:JOTL has a lower weight rating on BGG and I'm thinking wtf, how is it possible, Gloomhaven is such a nightmare that we won't even bother bringing it out again just to avoid remembering all the rules again. We are new to the hobby and have maybe 10 games in our collection, but so far Spirit Island is the game my wife enjoyed most, she even plays it Solo.

[@aarontyeryar8108]

I think a little light quarterbacking can help people see how to combo powers & create synergy between the spirits.

[@RTFM]

Yeah, I think it depends on your group. Some people will get along well with that kind of leading, but for others it will stop them from engaging if they don't have those moments of discovery. Definitely a know your audience kind of thing.

[@MoriMemento117]

More Murphs and Shea!!!! Also, agreed. Spirit Island is my #2 of all time, but it took me and my brother two plays before I had the Mike event of "OH, so THAT'S how it all works". Moment. Also, on quarterbacking or alpha gaming, I find it's such a small issue because of the shear number of decisions in this game. Oh, my lordy. Each god in this game is it's own island (pardon the pun) with spells and strategies - and even their own distinct philosophy on how to handle the colonizers - that to fully grok what's happening for even 2-players is a step too far, far for me. That's what makes it such a fantastic game. A game with so many choices.

[@mgk2020]

Most underappreciated boardgame channel. You deserve 10x (or more) the subs. Keep up the great work.

[@RTFM]

Thank you so much!

[@robertwest4596]

The interesting thing here is the rules themselves are actually quite simple to learn. It's actually playing the endless possibility of cards and events in an optimal way that's the real learning curve.

[@dancebenny]

Yeah, I can really understand this idea and criticism. As I have taught this game i found it to be a pretty significant issue but as I taught the game more I feel I got better at minimising the impact it has. I have found that over time I developed my own 'tried and tested' method that for me is the best way to go about teaching this game. At the start, I spend about spending 20-30 minutes going over a rehearsed explanation of how the game works with reassurance that if anything is forgotten or misunderstood because it is a cooperative game we can talk about it more when it comes up in the actual game. Along with this, for people new to the game who are not hardcore gamers I always teach the most basic version of the game, then if they play again adding depending on how much they were contributing towards the end of the last game I add new elements with each new play increasing the complexity but also giving players more to work with. *sorry for the long comment xD just wanted to share my experiences with this

[@RTFM]

No worries! I think this is a great way to teach the game! I do pretty much the same thing, though I add the Branch and Claw expansion stuff because it's too much work to separate the cards.

[@dancebenny]

@@RTFM That is completely fair haha

[@billable1861]

I’ve taught it to two people and both those people liked it. It does have a learning curve but if somebody is helping you it’s a lot better.

[@RTFM]

Definitely agree. The first time I played I had to teach myself and got a major rule wrong. When I introduce the game to others it tends to go pretty smoothly.

[@darnek117]

3:43 Omg I got the exact same rule wrong and I remember I was struggling so hard until like the last two turns someone told me I was doing it wrong and felt so stupid

[@antoniogutierrez7218]

This is one of my favorite games, I would play it all the time, but right me and a couple of friends are playing also Gloomhaven and Terraforming Mars with all the expansions, all of those take a long time to play, so we don't play Spirit Island as much as I'd like to. The learning curve as you said is considerable, if you don't play too much I think it's a good practice to stick with one or two spirits tops, since every one of them has some different mechanics, and what I struggle the most is with the slow powers, I'm getting used to them, but that requires planning ahead unless you are using the Blitz scenario. In the topic of Legacy games, I agree it would be a great candidate for a Legacy game, we (my boardgame pals and I) were thinking Terraforming Mars would also make an excellent Legacy game.

[@Tasarran]

I've also found that QBing can be eased if you just offer up things you can do, and/or ask for things you need... Like, "I can take care of these guys, or these guys, can anyone take care of the ones I can't?" or "Can anyone do any defending? If so, I don't have to worry about these guys, and I can take those guys out..."

[@douglashubbard3630]

You did a good job describing the problem, namely that Spirit Island is a bit difficult or overwhelming for new players. But you didn't really describe what to do about the problem. I was wondering the same thing. I just discovered this game and think it is great, but I am worried about how to present this to more people without frustrating them. It would be helpful to discuss the solution to the problem or how to mitigate the issue.

[@RTFM]

It probably would be more helpful to do that if I knew what the solution was. Besides having someone well versed in the game, there isn't an easy answer here, which is why it can be a problem for some. That being said, there are a few good suggestions in the comments.

[@Person-qp3nh]

Great channel very underappreciated

[@RTFM]

Thanks!

[@jackychen2953]

Just discovered this channel. Your videos are great. Keep up the good work!

[@RTFM]

Thank you so much!

[@Takemysenf]

We are about to play the first time today. So far I feel the game to be quite straight forward and easy to comprehend for a complex game. (Robinson Crusoe, which I love, was much less approachable for me.) Now like 4 boardgame vloggers talked about the crazy complexity of SpIs and now I am seriously curious if that is the case and what exactly comes our way... hmmmm... I love complex games. Just need to keep the calculating time in check, I guess. Thx for the vid

[@RTFM]

I find that it's not so much the rules that are complex, but the decisions that come at you right out of the gate.

[@CiconiaBorn-wb4lb]

Not gonna lie edible game pieces for Candyland is a million dollar idea

[@Seadrake]

The best I've found to avoid quarterbacking, or the "alpha problem" as my friends like to call it, is that your starting board is "your responsibility" and that if you need help or can help others this turn just say so.

[@adamtwice6166]

Who.. bird food?

[@hardeslaper]

Same! What I also find very helpful to get new players involved is to let each player place new invaders on their respective starting boards. Plus, it prevents accidental double placement.

[@LiiChinHo]

Im subscribed to both of you so I didn't even notice this wasn't brothers murph haha.

[@RTFM]

Haha, yes! Exactly what I was going for.

[@MoriMemento117]

Me too!

[@stukaracing]

Played for the first time last night...also made the same mistake with reclaiming!

[@wZem]

Playing the digital version. After playing the tutorial I felt really good and jumped into a new two spirit game thinking it would be kinda similar to Pandemic. Boy was I wrong. I suddenly have no clue what I'm doing, none of the actions seem to make any sense and it is really frustrating seeing the invaders build and blighting the island while you're powerlessly watching. Currently I feel like never touching this game ever again.

[@RTFM]

The main thing to keep in mind is that the flow of this game is different from a lot of co-ops that ease you in to the crisis. In Spirit Island, the crisis happens quickly and you have to find your way out of it. It does take a bit of time to get a handle on, as this video details, and I don't blame you if that's a bit off-putting. However if you do stick with it, I promise these things become a lot easier to manage after a couple plays.

[@khristienpennanen1810]

Wait edible game pieces is a great idea

[@RTFM]

It's a real thing too! ediblegames.com/

[@JBearwa]

Great example on this game to not quarterback or the term I’ve used to not be an Alpha gamer.

[@lilianempls]

I wish I had seen this earlier. I've played Spirit Island one time with others and it was just not very fun at all because of the learning curve. But, because everyone talks about how it's such a great game, I've hung on to it. Set it up about a week ago to try and master it solo and have been watching videos which is why this probably popped up in my feed. I think I'm done with it.

[@RTFM]

It's not for everyone, but I do believe that if you can get past the initial hurdle, there's a lot there to enjoy.

[@lilianempls]

@@RTFM Just sold it and am glad it belongs to someone who will enjoy playing it. Now I don't have to feel guilty about it anymore and it's off the shelf of shame.

[@supercommando440]

Yep I said F this game. For me, NO game is worth playing if the learning curve is so ridiculously difficult or painful.

[@stacie_everdell]

Wow, this is such an old video in internet terms. You boys are so cute! I can say that because I prolly have 20 years on all of you. ;) I like these days when ya'll had these smaller channels. I don't think I've seen The Bros. Murph any place else now except BGG. It's nice to see your earlier personalities shine through here. I very much enjoyed it the simplistic 'just talk' with now fancy POV or game play fx :)

[@moontan91]

the digital version is very good to learn the game: there's a very good tutorial, and a few 'cheats' for an easier start, unlimited undos.

[@dennissein2119]

It has a lot of moving parts.....and rules....and the big problem is that most of the videos teaching how to play are downright horrible.....makes learning the game much more difficult than it needs to be. It is a shame the producer of the game didn't put out a simple to follow video.

[@JM-db8ez]

Jack Black's a boardgamer, that's awesome. Nice video, thanks.

[@michaelbaker7499]

I absolutely love spirit island. 🌊🌋 Can anyone guess my favourite spirits?

[@searose6192]

Would you recommend using the app to learn the game?

[@RTFM]

I've actually never used the app, so I couldn't say. Though for learning the game I would selfishly recommend the tutorial that I made anyway :D

[@youreatowel1103]

But... I like Tom Brady...