SS14 - Limited Reagent Rework

Reagents across the board are no longer unlimited. This impacts bartenders, chemists, and scientists to an extent. It also gives botany a bit more of a helping hand in keeping the station healthy.
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[@alasdairsinclair916]

Welp, my plastic making ambitions are in shambles. An entire chem-vendor's worth of carbon for less than a cargo shipment's worth of plastic.

[@andrewgreeb916]

Just ask atmospherics for co2, they rarely refuse to give you a gas they have an infinite supply of.

[@romulo2714]

Wait you can make plastic now in SS14? I thought that was SS13 only.

[@quyluuthanh6798]

@@romulo2714 you can, it just the knowledge is hidden so you can only found it in the code or by seeing someone else make it

[@romulo2714]

@@quyluuthanh6798 Can you explain it to me? This is something so obscure I've never seen anyone do it in south american servers and it's been basically years since I'm an admin here.

[@BarteG44]

the emag functionality could be probably moved to the vendor instead

[@diaaway]

This!

[@goatinamoat3910]

Bartenders scream, as they now will have nothing due to "Drunk Mike" and his endless thirst 😭

[@limeslyx-z9453]

The Dispenser seems to just be a confusing and dangerous way to mix chemicals. What it provides in convenience during mixing is eclipsed by the chem master (click-drag jugs onto the master), and it essentially has no security when compared to storing jugs in a lockable crate.

[@quyluuthanh6798]

Coder better add coffee plant to botany, I can’t run shift in medbay without that health-risking dose of caffeine every 15 mins.

[@BadWizardGaming]

Are you sure it's caffeine and not meth?

[@quyluuthanh6798]

@@BadWizardGaming shhh, I’m hiding my stash from CMO, don’t snitch

[@MTandi]

Looks cool, but it raised the hurdle for big chemistry projects to the point that people will hardly bother. Nice sandbox feature, but a disaster for LRP-sized shifts.

[@andrewgreeb916]

With a cooperative atmos tech on your side this change hardly feels like you've lost anything. Now if nobody is willing to help you then chem is boned.

[@limeslyx-z9453]

The chem dispenser is pretty poor too, being a glorified jug cabinet, its utility is surpassed when you know that you can click-drag jugs onto the chem master.

[@miguellambert1288]

I don't like this change mainly because they changed chemistry from a sandbox into a resource management game. The two are related but have different types of player playing it, which means this update may make a lot of chemist stop playing chemistry. If they want they could lock stronger chemical under chemicals that are harder to get, such as plasma or uranium, or maybe getting new chemicals using the new machines they added at some point, so that chemistry is still a sandbox, but is less op. I'm mainly scared that chemistry will just become an endless side quest of getting random material just to get the most basics of chems, and that most chemist will just leave chemistry as a whole.

[@andrewgreeb916]

Not much of a side quest, you can just ask atmos for your main stuff, the main chemicals you are burning is oxygen and carbon, and atmos has infinite co2 for you to condense.

[@miguellambert1288]

@@andrewgreeb916 That's nice to know. I haven't tested out the update yet , but from what I've seen from the other comments most people don't like it, specially the chemist. Unfortunatly I don't think this really change my main point of drastically changing the style of gameplay.

[@ICanHazRecon911]

@@andrewgreeb916 Is this really a thing? I don't play chem but I do play medical, and chem has been super stingy with their carbon recently. This seems like a super easy solution that I haven't seen anyone do

[@andrewgreeb916]

@@ICanHazRecon911 every time I play atmos chem asks for co2 to condense, and since atmos has a co2 miner they have infinite co2. or you could play on a server that is more generous with your starting chemical supplies.

[@icotica921]

I fear this might be super inconvenient if someone messes with all the Chems, just one or two Chems out of place (while fun for sabotage) means you’ve gotta go through and check every Chem to see if it’s okay. I can’t say much since I’m purely an ss13 chemist but from what I can tell it may lead to Chem machines being ‘to messed up to use’. I like the idea of refilling it and stuff, but it seems super time consuming.

[@limeslyx-z9453]

a quick mishap in chemistry and another to fuck up the supply of medicine already made can quickly snowball. I feel there should be a chemical buffer in the dispenser that you can refill instead of it simply holding jugs. We already have things that hold jugs, they're call secured crates and they have locks on them. We already have a way to mix precisely its called the chem master, and it tells you what you're actually dispensing. The chem dispenser is comparatively useless in its current state, needs some reworking. The Chem Master could be made a better dispenser if you could organize the chemicals in its buffer properly.

[@limeslyx-z9453]

At this point it doesnt really make a lot of sense why even separate the chem dispenser from the chem vender, all that does is add extra steps.

[@andrewgreeb916]

​@@limeslyx-z9453you can just empty the jugs into the chem master, just put the jug on the floor and drag to the chem master

[@IcepickedCyanide]

Ah yes a change that literally inconviences everyone, bartenders and chemists ive talked to all hate this change, the new ui is so unbelievebly cluttered and the orders have changed, while limiting the amounts. The one thing that I despise about how this game is made, someone makes a drastic change that somehow flies through the checks, everyone actually playing hates it, and the people behind it defend it with their life in the discord. The new playstyle being enforced for chemistry is teaching people to go and just fucking steal things from the station to make chems. This is so uneeded. It takes one guy clicking two buttons to fucking end chemistry, on top of a bad cargo there is no chance of recovering.

[@skooers7783]

Its theoretically good however I think this negatively impacts rounds

[@pieppy6058]

People need to adapt to it. The same thing was said when cloning was effectively removed

[@limeslyx-z9453]

@@pieppy6058 gonna need more chemists

[@YanoD.9615]

Hah, shitden made another "not a nurf but pain in the ass that no one wanted" update? who cares, gotta never forget that their game is made like fucking frankenstein and upon fixing one thing, 3 things brake. So, just gonna use another easy chem duplication bug

[@gboster1331]

this sure is one hell of a controversial change, wonder how it will turn out

[@limeslyx-z9453]

the dispenser needs reworked again, it's a glorified storage crate; and worse than one with a lock. Click-drag jugs onto the chem master to completely circumvent getting trolled/griefed.

[@andrewgreeb916]

If people are willing to help chem it is a fine change, if not it sucks. Some servers stock chemvends with extra jugs of essential stuff to make your life so much easier.

[@user-kp2wj4nd3k]

I don't even imagine how wiz den's can make more shit out of game, but, in fact, they can! Nice work

[@cainprescott4937]

Budget Cuts! I hate them too!

[@lilseizy5922]

First engi with the power changes now chem, both of my main roles have been changed to the point where it simply isn’t fun.

[@comet.x]

​​​@@lilseizy5922 power changes?

[@user-kp2wj4nd3k]

@@cainprescott4937 more like logic cuts...

[@TheHakq]

I'm playing on a high online server, and at the start for one shift I should supply medbay with 2 jugs of each essencial medicine like dexa, derma, dil, etc. Using new chemistry will be such a chore... And I won't even mention brig med who I should supply too, botany and other people. Guess I'll pass.

[@igobraz]

I hear how loud chemists screaming rn 😂

[@meemeleem]

such an awful pointless change, of all the things that need a nerf chem is not one of them they need to look back to ss13 which had a perfectly fine chemical dispensing system which was still not infinite

[@alabamalanche]

Good to see you got your power back Lilt, but wow what a change. I guess I understand the point but this change seems a bit too rough. Only two jugs of each chemical is pretty limiting. Guess I'll give it a shot but man... Guess its back to delta-V for awhile. So close to unlocking captain too...

[@alabamalanche]

I do want to say that along with the somewhat recent nerf to Atmos as well, as well as salvage and their upcoming nerf, that they really want to make all materials very scarce. Greytide will take advantage of this by sabotaging I'm sure, and it's not like they ban people on the MRP server for not acting like it's LRP. Going to be rough.

[@limeslyx-z9453]

I agree, I'm glad to see you're doing better Liltenhead

[@andrewgreeb916]

Delta v technically had this change out early, but they also stocked the chemvend with more jugs so you still got to make all your stuff.

[@limeslyx-z9453]

@@andrewgreeb916 Right! Delta-v doing that early also showcased that the new dispenser is functionally bankrupt, because you can get everything done better and more reliably by just click-dragging jugs onto the chem master. All we need to truly erase this version of the dispenser is the ability to organize the master's buffer properly.

[@hypno9022]

SS13 Chemist here. Don't know how much medicine SS14 Chemists make, but in SS13 only 200u of each basic chem could be used before the first body even hits medbay.

[@hypno9022]

Also, there is already a method to make certain chemicals limited, it's called having non-dispenser chemicals in their recipes!

[@foty8679]

On that mining server its quite fun because you can grind up dead people and get chems that way.

[@cloaker2527]

JUST GIVE US SURGERY!!!

[@coolcoolercoolest212]

I just saw in the discord it’s coming next week!

[@superjj1850]

Medbay on SSD watch

[@tanukies]

as a salvage main, i LOVE to make chem dispensers and chen masters and become a salvage chemist now that everything is limited and i can’t create medicine out of the blue, i am forever in despair

[@Jedai_Games]

You probably the sole reason why they become limited. Station is game about crew interaction, not about Cargo buy everything they needed and go build their own station.

[@tanukies]

@@Jedai_Games build our own station? bro the chems r for when we’re hurt it’s easier to have ready to be made chemicals rather than abandoning mission and going back to station

[@1acolit680]

Я думаю что в сто раз лучше была система в ss 13, и её можно попробовать перенести, к примеру на каждый аппарат давать по 200-300u всех веществ, и от улучшения машины (компонентов внутри) увеличивается скорость восстановления доступного кол-во элементов и их объем; или просто ввести 500u но при увеличении уровня прокачки машины (компонентов) увеличивать скорость восстановления, но не объем; или же просто дать 1000u и восстановление веществ которые не зависят от уровня компонентов

[@NonName425]

Улучшенных компонентов больше не существует

[@1acolit680]

Уф.... Я слишком долго спал видимо

[@Multichar]

Still wouldn't solve the issue of infinite chems

[@NotOkarin]

@@Multichar imho it never has been an issue, even more so an issue worth of solving.

[@Helion228]

@@NonName425 Я чуть не задохнулся! Как? За что? За что убрали ведущих? ЗА ЧТООО???

[@vesstig]

Cargo is useless and expecting them to do their jobs is like expecting an admin to not abuse their power

[@sashagaliga1181]

honestly, at this point we don't even need chemical dispencer, as we can just do everything in chem master. Thanks, i hate it

[@prophetcrow]

its obvious that the intended message is that the PMs/wizden maintainers dont want chemists making infinite chemicals. but yes -- this makes the chem dispenser effectively useless now, because why wouldnt you just fill the buffer and mix in the chem master instead?

[@andrewgreeb916]

Delta v removed chem dispensers early, and I don't mind the change

[@krberryy2516]

All it takes is one clown spilling chems mid round and now it’s 1000x more painful than it originally was, and now cargo and chem are gonna constantly get into fights over what in maints should be brought where, I really hope this gets rolled back because it seems like it incentivizes sabotaging med even more than before and makes it way easier than before

[@limeslyx-z9453]

yeah, griefing becomes so much easier and so much more impactful. Also the dispenser is useless, use a lockable crate to store jugs, use the master to mix. All we need now to fully replace this version of the dispenser to the ability to organize the chem master chemicals properly. If you didn't know you can drag jugs onto the chem master.

[@krberryy2516]

@@limeslyx-z9453 yeah chem is just going to be way more harder and or inconvenient as you have to choose between either making chemistry really tedious with jugs in a crate or do you leave the chems in the dispenser or master and potentially have all of your chems get stolen/dumped down the drain

[@asd49ee]

Hot take against some of the other top comments. While it does "force" a large shift in gameplay and dynamics, I say it is **towards the better**. But it leaves room for critique. Up until this point, you could be a silly little spaceman and do funny shenanigans that seriously injure/crit/kill you, knowing that medical has enough medicine to supply a first-world colony. I was a doctor AND chemist main. And it brings a real-world medical process into play. **Triage**. Not every injury is the same. The Clown's 12 blunt damage isn't the same as Captain's 80 pierce 60 heat injuries from a antag attack. Someone actively bleeding out is more of a priority than someone who is stabilized. You start questioning returning patients who consistently have suspicious damage types (electrical) that aren't justified for their departments/occupations, or identify someone as a "resource dump" that *probably* needs to just be declared a liability/loss at that point by Hthe ead of Medical and morgue their ass. It'd be a good reason to have medical records terminal receive actual function. (Maybe a medical scanner can get a "send" button that updates a patient's records) Morgue also cold-stores bodies, as a reminder. They won't rot in those pods for a reason; it gives medical a chance to treat the easier jobs before stitching together some poor bastard with 240 slash damage. Granted, waiting 30 minutes to be rez'ed will suck, and you'll more likely take a ghost role- but hell, those roles are there for a reason! Be the best sentient vending machine you can be! Also, there are some further points in favor of this change... Chem-bomb buffs make water/potassium the most accessible and (moderately) dangerous explosive. Maybe having an infinite amount of potassium isn't such a good idea. ("But water isn't infinite!" sinks regen water over time). The lethality of pyro and poison compounds got a boost, you probably shouldn't be able to have your scientist antag friend print 4 packs that can all be filled with napalm. Maybe the Head of Medical needs to start checking in on chemistry and asking "Why are three jugs of potassium missing?". I could also see some sort of tool or occupational ability becoming possible for detectives and doctors (and interns) to identify what (possibly) caused the damage. Like... "[Silly Spaceman] was [slashed] [22] times, possibly by [claws/teeth]" I ain't a coder though, so I don't know how hard/resource-heavy that would be to implement.

[@snipebob2222]

Nice to see you got power back.

[@user-br8zo4mx8q]

very bad updaye for chemists

[@oscarjackson3460]

its so jover now

[@user-vv6df8uk9s]

In my opinion the number of roundstart chemicals should be increased from 200u to 1000u. It will be extremely painful to make even some simple medicine like dylo or bycard.

[@limeslyx-z9453]

replace the dispensers jug buffer with a chemical buffer. Maybe let it have a slot for a jugs to help export chemicals. but it doesn't make sense that it enables an extra feature of sabotage then if you just mixed externally using the jugs that it's storing, or mixing with the chem master (click-drag jugs onto the master). All we need now to completely replace this dispneser is the ability to organize chemicals in the chem masters buffer properly.

[@KingFroozy]

ChemVendor can provide you with 400u more of each reagent, so chemists basically have 600u on their hands for anything they would ever need. Plus ChemVendor refillers are +400u again, and they aren't really expensive to be ordered.

[@prophetcrow]

or at the very least make the chem vendor have 4 jugs of each chemical instead of 2. Id also would double the amount of empty jugs too because now we can't pour extra chems down the drain.

[@andrewgreeb916]

The chemvend should have more jugs of your critical resources like carbon and oxygen, delta v already does this

[@prophetcrow]

​@@andrewgreeb916 another reason not to play on wizden

[@DrEnzyme]

If you want to make the medical team useless early on just tip all their carbon down the drain at round start and they will no longer be able to make bicaridine, inaprovaline and dermaline (if you're a traitor chemist do it yourself and say you accidentally did it because you were trying to get jugs). That means no coming back from brute or burn damage, and unless they get some quick dex+, no airloss either. And since we have no surgery yet, you're as good as dead from that point because medical will have to either use all of their topical shit treating one person or slab your ass so they can bring back someone with over 200 damage. You can always grind stuff up to make carbon, or bug cargo. But grinding stuff or condensing stuff probably isn't going to give you enough to recover. As an example, you generally inject ~15u of any of those 3 core chems at one time. So you're looking at 10 sheets of steel for 1 shot of bicaridine (or 5 sheets if you're looking at making advanced chems). Cargo are going to be broke at round start or prioritizing getting the engineers their engineer stuff, so good luck recovering from that early chem shortage.

[@theshadower5565]

I'm mostly playing in medical department and I like the idea, yet... it didn't go so well in my first rounds. The problem that arose was omnizine. Due to the fact that reagents are so limited, chemists around me just started to focus on renewable medicine, i. e. omnizine. While having omnizine is cool, it stops being cool when the chemist just makes 5 jugs of omnizine and the whole work of the medical department is being reduced to mere use omnizine and necrosol. That was just atrocious. The idea is great, but it seems to cause many problems, and time is needed to resolve those. Like... probably omnizine eggs shouldn't be as powerful as there are. Limitations of chemistry just demonstrated their problem.

[@john_cena_cheeseburger]

how the fuck do you make so many bad decisions in a span of 3 months like im actually going insane

[@FunnyStripes]

Easy, simply silence and ban every single person who dares criticize or disagree with the changes brought forth by the small clique effectively ruling Wizden with an iron fist, who see players as a stupid, filthy, ignorant peasants, and who want to shape the game according to their own personal vision and taste (and not the community's), that's what you get. If they aren't willing to listen to feedback because they are too high and mighty, too "illuminated" and "above" to listen to the "white names" (the term they use to insult players) and to the "small time/one timer contributors" (they also love insulting small contributors), will inevitably result in a shit outcome since the quality of their changes goes completely unchecked/ignored, as they seriously believe that they always know best than the "stupid players" because they are "totes like Nintendo" (I'm not exaggerating nor joking, they seriously and unironically compared themselves to Nintendo once to justify their shit changes, linking to a video going like, "why game companies know better than their customers").

[@tadpolegaming4510]

Furry troons, that's how

[@CrazzyJ-iw5rc]

Tl;Dw, they nerfed the shit out of chem. It almost seems like they are making room for rounds to get OP over time, like you can kind of get around this with fluid anomalies, but those are random. My hope is that they start adding some late game equipment that you need to work with multiple departments to achieve. Like some kind of bluespace quantum chem portal or whatever. It would incentivise good cooperation.

[@goatinamoat3910]

Yeah I think making things more op after this will be a good change. Though I think buffing some chems will also be one of the main ways it will be done.

[@goatinamoat3910]

"This will incentivize good cooperation", the coders say, as medical now becomes the department which steals all of HoPs paper "For the good of the many". Think of how angry people get with an ineffective cargo/salvage before this change. Now that chemistry basically runs entirely off of cargo, they will be so pissed lol. At least for now, before they add Chem upgrades to science and that salvage planet which anyone can access.

[@bartekgaw1]

Code base: -Remember the drama in tg where orange coused drama about chemicals rework? -Yea, what's about it? -We should be better than them -How? -Let's limit chemdispenser -You're genius!

[@coolcoolercoolest212]

There’s a lot more to chemistry than I realized.

[@EthanQix]

Chemists having to pay attention to the numbers on the screen instead of just clicking buttons : OH NO Tiders being able to make maints meth : OH YESSSSS

[@limeslyx-z9453]

Well its also that the utility of the chem dispenser is bypassed by using a locked crate to store jugs, and the chem master to mix (click-drag jugs onto the master). Presently the chem dispsner is more of a noob trap, given it introduces 2 type of sabotage: mislabelled jugs being more effective, and explosions rendering the lot of chemicals useless. Avoiding the mislabeled jugs basically means just use the chem master (it tells you the chemicals' names), and to avoid the explosions use a secured crate to store jugs.

[@EthanQix]

@@limeslyx-z9453 To be fair the new version of the chem dispenser is just that : it dispenses chems easily, in more precise amounts than you can do with just a jug and a beaker. And you can stock anything in it, including intermediate/finished products ready to dispense. I doubt that, past the first few weeks, chemists will choose the secure option of crates over the convenience of the chem dispenser.

[@romulo2714]

I can imagine a lot of people complaining but other than the chem dispensers now just being an added step instead of something vital I think this is actually an *amazing* update, and maybe even a blessing in disguise. SS13's medicine excels not only because of how feature-rich it is, but also because of the *massive* amounts of options for one to approach a problem. Yes, chemicals are now no longer infinite, but, you now have a myriad of options to obtain them, the chem dispenser is merely an optional convenience tool. If this update gets polished and worked a bit more I'm sure it can open paths for doctors and chemists to approach problems in a similar fashion to the previous game.

[@minerturtle45]

i feel like this would be a lot lot lot better if there was some sort of centralized, secure chemical storage like how there is with solid materials. as it is currently it seems like it adds way too much micromanaging

[@minerturtle45]

especially with the fact that a single bomb can send the entirety of chems to the stone age that seems like a very bad idea

[@BIGESTblade]

Good change. Basically, in SS13 chemist is a god who can make pretty much anything happen. Even if you were a nukie, meeting a chemist in a hallway was always terrifying. You were basically playing roulette on what that chemist had mixed.

[@4dmost991]

Ok, if plasteel can be grinded, does that means it can be made!!???

[@Yarilo14]

This change is awful... If they gave us atleast 500 u maybe we could have something but only 200 u is super low amount. Not only this will mean that i won't be able to make poisons, unstable mutagen for botany, some chemicals to annoy crew, because it probably won't be enough to even make enough medicine

[@andrewgreeb916]

Botany doesn't need 200u unstable. As a chemist you need to be smarter and source chems from more places, atmos is a great place to ask for stuff like carbon oxygen and nitrogen. Other than that focus on stretching your chems further

[@ibagiousvii4458]

Honestly I dont like this change. It feels like its just making chemistry have to rely on other departments to function even more, when just making complicated chems can take up most of the round. Just getting Aloe for Stellibin can be tough, getting gasses from atmos or tons of materials from cargo (which every department is already fighting over) is gonna turn being a chemist into 30% actually doing chemistry, and 70% bugging people over and over for the things you need. I feel like for this change to work and not make chemistry terrible to play, we really need surgery. Doctors rely so heavily on chemistry to function as it is, making chemistry even more reliant on having a quality player working in there makes being a doctor just a pain. Also as someone who memorizes things in shapes and patterns, the inconsistent chem layout means im going to have to learn all the chems from scratch lmao ;-; After talking it over with people in game, Ive come to this conclusion: We just REALLY need the surgery update lmao. Being a doctor relies too much on chemistry doing their job well, which can now stop functioning for even more reasons.

[@healerlfg7769]

Welcome back! good to see you're doing well!

[@Liltenhead]

Glad to be back!

[@legogoka-boomstudio1838]

Chemistry is now at its most annoying it’s ever been. I’ve always kinda hated chem because rather than doing something challenging, you were doing something so damn tedious as you click away to a slow and annoying recipe book or waste time memorizing. It always felt like you could do so much more fun stuff doing almost anything else. Even the fun chem stuff has been bored and balanced out. The new resource system could allow them to take out all the annoyances but I feel like they would hate that idea unless there was extreme backlash like usual. Also no one really makes chem nades. Like sure they’ll do it once or twice but after that they’ll realize how long and annoying it is to research/build/steal everything and think they could have infinitely more fun doing anything else. Also carrying more than one bomb is a death trap now unless you’re a nukie so that’s also annoying.

[@limeslyx-z9453]

They need to improve the chemistry dispenser, from my professional opinion it is very underdeveloped and basically useless. For example, what happens to jugs when you dissassemble the machine, what happens when you insert more of the same jug, why not just combine the master and the dispenser at this point. I definitely feel it shouldn't hold jugs, rather have an internal buffer for each of its chemicals, and using a jug on it adds to that buffer, I can understand having a slot for a Jug to help export chemicals from the dispenser - but I definitely feel like it shouldn't all be contained in jugs, at this point you can basically delete the dispenser and suffer no real loss. Having them store the chemicals in an internal buffer does however give it value, number 1 - you know what chemical is what number 2 - an explosion wouldn't wipe out medicals medicine producer number 3 - you get to keep the jugs for external use number 4 - it doesn't add extra buttons everytime you add an extra jug of a chemical that's already in the buffer number 5 - less sabotage on an already (as of now) highly volatile and heavily depended upon job (by knowing what you're dispensing) as it stands rn, the chem dispenser is entirely underdeveloped and no one would suffer from it's deletion. Given it doesn't show the name of the chemical it almost serves more towards sabotage antics than it does regular chemistry. Practically it's only use rn is to facilitate precise mixing and prevent mouse griefing, while also acting as a highlighted target for sabotage and destruction. Given that it's not lockable also makes it less secure than just using secured chem crates to store jugs. Essentially all it does rn is store jugs and help transfer units, what it could do is the exact same thing it did before - but with a buffer for each chemical, and maybe it has a max of like 1000u for each chemical. I could even see a bluespace varient upgrade that allows it to slowly regenerate certain chemicals (like O - Sugar - C), the same way sinks regenerate water. Basically we're already able to store jugs, and generally speaking in a more secure way; the chem master already facilitates precise mixing and generally in a more reliable way (given the names are correct), there really is no point to the chem dispenser [except to act as a noob trap]. Respectfully, make the dispenser actually have value. Presently - the Chem Master could be made a better dispenser if you could organize the chemicals in its buffer properly. If you didn't know you can drag jugs onto the chem master. Imagine if we could have that but for the dispenser. Also given these changes, we're definitely going to need more available chemist slots, chemistry is slow enough rn with only 2 people, now imagine they have to go around and figure out how to collect all their chemicals before they mix them.

[@limeslyx-z9453]

At this point it doesnt really make a lot of sense as to why even separate the chem dispenser from the chem vender, all that does is add extra steps.

[@limeslyx-z9453]

Its two core functions are storing jugs and facilitating mixing, both of which a locked crate and a chem master¹ do better. Given that it introduces two types of sabotage² and doesn't have any other redeeming features - it really only functions as a noob trap, and chemists all around would actually benefit from its removal (in its current state). (1 - click-drag jugs onto the master) (2 - relabelling explosive jugs, and exploding all the jugs in its buffer)

[@limeslyx-z9453]

I'd like to add that on Delta-v we've had limited chemicals for a while now on some stations, they simply removed round start chem dispensers and made vending machines more prevalent with certain high-use chemicals (like carbon) have more jugs. I've experienced quite a lot of frustration with how the mixing and storing process works, and the best method by far during those circumstances was to just store all the chemicals in the chem master. I was really hoping that if the dispenser was to be touched to facilitate the feature of limited chemicals that it would be better than the chem master at certain things, but currently that just doesn't seem to be the case.

[@limeslyx-z9453]

This dispenser seems more dangerous and risky that it useful. Hopefully my critique has some meaningful impact. Respectfully.

[@super-cl4ly]

now im cant live forever with just chem dispenser and RTG

[@elliottprehn6342]

Yay! Glad to see your power is back, sorry about the Wi-Fi tho

[@comet.x]

at least it sort of gives atmos something to do while they aren't being bombed. chemists will love you if you give them a canister of carbon dioxide

[@vladislav721]

That unnecessary complication of chemists work, they will work until moment where chemvendor ran out and wait for cargo to resupply vendor

[@andrewgreeb916]

That is just being a bad chemist, if it's stuff like oxygen or carbon just ask atmos for a can to condense. So many chems can be obtained easily through cooperation.

[@agustron2479]

​@@andrewgreeb916MAN THE FUCKING COMMUNICATION IS SHIT,I TRY TO GET 2 SHEETS OF STEEL FROM CARGO AND I TAKE AN ENTIRE SHIFT FOR GETTING A no

[@rodi8266]

Guess I cant make funny bomb experiments anymore as a chemist the lack of specific reagents would be quite suspicious, oh no! Bartender can also now do some chemistry right? Can load regular Reagents jugs into your dispenser and then make some space drug- fluid lmao

[@Liltenhead]

Yeah bomb making stocks have dropped hard.

[@0bashie]

some maps on the server i play on don't have chem dispenser to begin with sometimes, i don't like :(

[@pieppy6058]

It takes chemistry from something that takes 5 minutes to a full shift thing. I’m kinda all for it I’m annoyed by the new chem dispenser UI. Other than that its alright I guess

[@SomeKittyCat]

Now we just need a bluespace jug.

[@ps3moira]

Feels like something theoretically good but in practice would not work for making chemicals

[@zylo202]

Another good change. In general I'm for any update that makes working with other departments more rewarding. (except cargo stripping the station bare for bounties, wish that would get reworked some more.)

[@tamnker8465]

I’m brand new, but I’m just confused as to why? This change is literally there to inconvenience chem. Best case: Everyone cooperates, chem gets unlimited chemicals, chem stays the same. Worst case: Cargo isn’t watching radio, chemist leaves to go harrang cargo, a greytide or antag nabs the carbon and oxygen, and chem is forced to sit there twiddling their thumbs until cargo pulls themselves together. Maybe they wanted to see more antags using chems to their advantage? Pretty much all this change does is make things easier to steal.

[@caodogao4327]

YOU WOT M8!

[@Joe-nv3mm]

The only time i asked bontry for help as chem i got an 50 eggs make of space drug and omnizine

[@ps3moira]

How will this work with syndicate reagents when emagging the chem dispenser?

[@Liltenhead]

Can't emag dispensers anymore.

[@DandiIion]

Eh fun > realism. This is lame.

[@mrtoofters5167]

At this point why even bother using the dispencer if you just have the Chemmaster

[@05Matz]

Oooh, some of these separation processes look good for 'ghetto chem' prospects. (yes, I'm catching up on the status of SS14 after a multi-month hiatus). Just gotta figure out how to build the machines in a dark Maintenance corner...

[@vaidenkelsier7757]

I dunno, this seems fine. I see some hysterics going on, but if cargo can just reorder chem stocks, then it's all about that department interplay baybee. Better make friends with cargo and your botanists.

[@beridot2615]

*YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*

[@creatorbot0056]

As someone who has played chem. It kinda pain. Im not a fan of it. Also chem vending machine should have more 2 jug per chem like carbon 3 prob a good.

[@Drakior]

Chemists do not like this.... chemicals are so few as it is. Chem was fine the way it was, and difficult enough. Change it back please...

[@jan5558]

True this impacts me too I am a botanie main and the entirety of med but this requires me to now always make omnizine eggs

[@quyluuthanh6798]

There is a map in delta-v that have no chem dispenser, only chem vendor with a lot of jug… we chemist hate it, but we still can somehow manage it. But still, f this change!

[@AmssoBadorSpacelot]

Yup feels like a terrible change as a chemist main.

[@Blackern5000]

This is a good change. It makes chem more involved with the station rather than their own lone system.

[@minepolz320]

Finally

[@atlas4034]

Aint better add battery meter charge like all ss13 codebases had?Like chems still be limited by battery charge, and need constant recharge either by time or inducer.

[@bifusmorgus9000]

please for the love of god handle limited chems like how tgstation does it

[@Przemko27Z]

I feel like one of the worst things about this change is how many people it's gonna drive away from playing chem. I know I'm less inclined to do so now that it requires preserving resources. Call me autistic or whatever, but I don't like the pressure of scarcity. Even if it technically doesn't end up making things much harder in the grand scheme, it does seem like a psychological hurdle and annoyance. And it discourages a lot of the more fun experimental chem stuff and basically forces fetch quests. And making bartender's dispensers limited in the same way seems potentially worse somehow. Really just adding unnecessary hassle and scarcity to a job that's largely based on just handing out drinks. And it being harder to actually restock is just unpleasant and since you don't really get sources other than cargo, it hardly adds anything.

[@chiptastick-7823]

Welcome back after your unfortunate situation! This change seems nice but I don't like it so much, especially if you've gotten used to the names and locations of the reagents.

[@magicbonez]

Lab rates rejoice!

[@tutoumi1029]

happy to see you back, also i like this nerf because it mean that peoples will probably use surgery (when it will come out) more than if we had infinite chems because it's simpler to use chems than to operate someone

[@BreadyToad138]

Doing surgery isn't equal to treating wounds though as they heal completely different damage types. Surgery heals internal organs, broken bones or can remove/change organs, it has nothing to do with healing burns/toxins/every other damage type we have now

[@tutoumi1029]

@@BreadyToad138 you have a point, thats true

[@NotOkarin]

Ok, I quit being chemist. Update sucks.

[@Liltenhead]

What part specifically is the issue?

[@NotOkarin]

@@Liltenhead after the latest chem updates I’ve practically been living in there and was making stuff in bulk like for a +-1.5k of each base medicine and each time some random thing have been depleting the entire stock, whether because of a high pop and really high amounts of people with casualties or because some random dude thought it would be a really good idea to clean up potassium with water near CMs and CDs while I was RPing bomb production with sec and sci. One time it was funny, but when something like this happens nearly every shift it makes chem too repetitive and annoying. Now this update cranks up a difficulty and makes it even more annoying, because you can’t just make a bulk for an entire shift and then go bananas with experimenting and roleplaying. I mean, it probably gives some perspective for more crew to crew interactions, but for me personally it’s more of a hustle. There was always that chilling vibe in chem that made it feel more meditative, but now.. Well. In my honest opinion there should be a balance between realism and convenience. New UI is also looks very messy. Really dunno how I missed this PR.

[@SimplyVanis]

I already noticed that medbay is running like dog shit because lack of healing resources. This is good stuff for MRP, but for LRP it seems very hard currently.

[@Bruno-dv3ym]

this will be specially good since we see med going away from the "pill hellhole" that it was before. i like it

[@otaku2082]

Say what you want, but I like that it makes chemistry actually *matter* something.

[@TheBoinkWich]

Does it mean the RD now actually has to do more logistics than saying "please dont blow up the station" ?

[@FunnyStripes]

Great idea in theory that balances things, but dogshit execution of it, as per usual from Wizden. They should simply have the chem/drinks dispensers work like in SS13, not this nightmare resource management bullshit.

[@cainprescott4937]

As someone who didn't play SS13, how do chem/drink dispensers work there?

[@FunnyStripes]

@@cainprescott4937 Far as I remember, basically, Dispensers there work that, they do have some limited capacity of something (chemicals or/and power), which they can recharge over time or be more quickly recharged with certain items. Also, basic Dispensers start with a limited max capacity and selection of chems, and the more you upgrade them, the higher the chem capacity and selection.

[@andrewgreeb916]

Wasn't the biggest fan of the change, it seriously limits your ability to make medicine, some servers at least give you extra carbon to alleviate your need to source the chems yourself when making your first set of medicine. I guess trying to be a nice chemist who keeps both medical and security stocked with meds is a taller order. Also the chemvend is very explosive now, be very careful with cfl3.

[@flushe4307]

this change sucks

[@87mhe37]

Isnt SS14 meant to be a successor to SS13? Why cant the coders just learn how they do it (like TG) and not do it their own way? Making a thing take longer or be more tedious to get/do makes it less satisfying to get/do, like getting more chems, rather than making some system put more complicated mechanics to use, or, you know, doing what worked fine before.. Nobody in SS13 is unhappy that dispensers give infinite chems, other than people who havent given it a try, aka people who get inconvenienced by chemistry related things like bombs or poisons. Either these coders havent been chemists before, havent heard of "if it aint broke dont fix it" or both. And i thought it was worse that space wizards owned every part of SS14, so they had full control of everything there even including servers. Meanwhile SS13 runs on BYOND as a sort of middleman, and so do all the servers for it. Theres no main one that can basically even ban the others off the hub like SS14 devs can! I wonder how this rant developed from chemistry to whats fundamentally wrong with putting time into developing or playing SS14 servers when you cant even be sure they wouldnt be banned off it. TLDR: SS14 is deathly scared of following SS13 in anything other than design (not balancing!) aspects, maybe cant even follow that at times. 13:27

[@lone_wolf5649]

Oh this is something this will mean a chemist is prorbly gon - (saw 11:42) well i dont like this. Guess i have to get alternative drinks.

[@Pascij]

Good change, chemist was such an easy job so far. Now you have to THINK what and when you make things and HAVE to go outside for refills, i saw so many chemists never leave they're room means its so hard to break in as an antag. Also i hate the meta where you make unlimited supply on medicine, now botanist has much more worth cause they can actually make infinity medicins. :)

[@rosesoul3725]

the return of the king

[@raposacon3115]

Bad, but okay

[@no_mnom]

This really isn't that bad, in other servers this has more or less been the case for awhile and you can manage with only jugs just fine, people just don't like new things.

[@alex-ip3xj]

how could the devs kill ss14 with this I blame the furries or something like that

[@astrovian2713]

Update made me go back to chem. I got so bored of it before because it was so braindead

[@flarbergaster]

Welcome back I ah don't like this one. I memorized Chem locations and not recipes

[@minepolz320]

Realism ❤❤

[@ForgettablePerson]

The worst update of the game

[@mirrorarnie6683]

SS14 is an unfinished game. It'll get changes like this. The complaints seem to stem around the fact that this is *different*. That doesn't make it bad. Consider not developing muscle memory for a beta.

[@imdontunderstand4657]

worst update

[@imdontunderstand4657]

when surgery update?

[@Werddrewtv]

Day 84 of asking Liltenhead to unban me in his comments

[@cainprescott4937]

So, based off everything I've seen regarding this change, I have thoughts for what should be done if they keep it this way instead of, say, cribbing from SS13 (as I haven't played SS13, I don't know how that handles chem/drink dispensers): First, there should be a tech or something that lets you make chem dispensers with infinite stock (probably later into the tree). It's not a *great* solution to turn the way things used to work into a Science unlock that many rounds may never get before things go tits-up, but in the words of an optimist it's better than not having it at all. Second, the storage in chem dispensers at round start (or in general) should be larger, or ChemVends should carry more than they do currently. Two jugs of each material per chemist (if you have three chemists, one of them is going to get left out) is not a lot and having more to work with between required refills would be nice for all involved (especially Cargo, because having to order ChemVend restocks puts more strain on a budget that, sometimes, is practically nonexistent). Third, after having read other comments, something needs to be done to make it harder to sabotage Chem. As it is right now, all it takes is one clown (literal or otherwise) trying to mix CLF3 in the dispenser to potentially put you out of materials for doing your job, and that just doesn't feel fair or right at all. It's kind of funny how they added the ability to commit [self-end] with guns in the same update as this rework, because I bet that's what a lot of chem players feel like doing right now. Also, it's nice to see that Lit finally got their power back.

[@andrewgreeb916]

A chem dispenser that has the ability to use power to make chems would be nice, as a late game thing. Otherwise I would personally just put more jugs of high use chems in the chemvend. Delta V already stocks chemvends with more oxygen and carbon.

[@EnrichedUranium]

I've been CMO 4 times since the change, all four times my chemist on staff looked at the changes and went immediately SSD. I spent like 3 hours working on a spreadsheet since I hate doing chemistry, but felt compelled to optimize stuff as best I could since dealing with the guidebook sucks. At least now I can be a mediocre chemist instead of an active detriment to the entire crew by wasting all of my carbon.

[@andrewgreeb916]

@@EnrichedUranium I prefer to just condense carbon instead of being efficient

[@fleshwebber1757]

Water? Is that a new reagent?