Stan Lee on Jack Kirby

Stan explains why he thinks Jack Kirby quit Marvel Comics in 1970.

[@TheScarecrowDrawing]

I'm glad Kirby went to DC. He created some of my favorite DC characters like the Demon Etrigan, Darkseid, and the Female Furies

[@2muchwit]

@@finrod885 He did DC first you FUCKER, and he was payed with respect, and money

[@urt1202]

How bad they treated the female furies last year

[@adrianrocha6844]

Moron they didn’t treat him with respect they excluded him from a lot of things because they didn’t trust him and all his books at dc had great art but shitty writing and they weren’t doing good so they let him go if you want to blame anybody blame the fans of that time who gave all the credit to Stan don’t be fucking stupid like everyone else

[@angelvalle9963]

He created all the best characters.

[@nicholasd.6515]

They're now together and reunited. RIP to both.

[@toyhunter2903]

@Notorious If Stan Lee repented and believed in Jesuschrist then he's in Heaven.. 😄

[@toyhunter2903]

@Notorious 😂😂😂😂

[@leticiaalejandroperez6638]

Together and reunited in the ground without conscience and senses. Oh, what a rest! I wish I'll be there soon.

[@odnettv4719]

@@leticiaalejandroperez6638 wow you're so cool and intelligent

[@leticiaalejandroperez6638]

@@odnettv4719. What?

[@eiichirooda504]

He was 85 in 2008, God He had a long life

[@khalilrichardson491]

Until November 12, 2018 at 95 years

[@Sebastiantheonewithlonghair]

He had a good life too. He deserved it. I wish I could've met the guy. He seemed to be a genuinely good person, who loved everyone. Now days so many comic "professionals" spend all their time bashing each other and their fans based on political beliefs, but Stan Lee wasn't that kind of dude

[@wasteland70]

Jack Kirby was a great, tender, talented man. I knew him, I can vouche for his virtue.

[@billr3724]

My personal opinion is that Lee and Kirby were BOTH pivotal to the popularity and success of Marvel. Like many creative people, they eventually had their fallout with each other, and no one knows all the details of their relationship. Money may have been a factor, but I doubt that was the main reason for their split-up. They worked well as a team, with Kirby doing most of the covers back then and was responsible for the "Marvel" look, with it's larger than life superheroes. Lee made the characters more human, with vulnerabilities and personal problems. When Kirby left, Marvel Comics no longer had the look that they were known for. As a comic reader, I followed Kirby when he went to DC to create comics like "The New Gods", "Mister Miracle" and "The Forever People". Those comics were visually appealing, but lacked the engaging characters that he had at Marvel who had more depth. Lee and Kirby were excellent individually, but as a team were creative geniuses who were primarily responsible for the silver age of comics.

[@JackKirbyFan]

I read a book about it. Jack was given the worst possible contract. He was heartbroken after all he did for Marvel. Jack went to DC and worked his tail off and while he was given creative freedom, he wasn't given a great salary. It's heartbreaking. He literally had two places to choose from. I know that Stan talked about that partnership but the book I read never mentioned it. Who knows the whole truth.

[@nichtsschlagteinenastronau7782]

I love them both, anyway. Stan, may you live forever! Jack, R.I.P.! Greetings from a German fan!

[@nkosig4995]

Damn

[@joebillybob42]

2018 the year this comment was posted stan died rip

[@Artisan1979]

It wasn't about the money Stan. It was about credit and he was not getting the full extent of what he was owed.

[@followthewhiterabbit2549]

That's the best comment I've ever read.

[@jimmyvolakis5194]

Then why did Kirby’s wife say that Jack didn’t enter toy stores because he couldn’t bear seeing products of characters he worked on and not getting any royalties for them? It was about money.

[@sampowellmusic]

the saddest thing in life is when 2 people who were perfect as a team and were brought together by divine forces cant make it work for the benefit of the fans.

[@Atomicchuck]

To make a Cake: 175g (6oz) margarine or softened butter 175g (6oz) caster sugar 3 large eggs 175g (6oz) self-raising flour, sifted 1tsp baking powder 1tsp vanilla extract pinch of salt To make Marvel: Jack Kirby Steve Ditko Stan Lee

[@paulakroy2635]

John rimta sr

[@followthewhiterabbit2549]

Chris Claremont, John Byrne, Walter Simonson, Frank Miller, and of course Len Wein. Without Len Wein there would be no Wolverine.

[@spiddyman0079]

*stan lee

[@billr3724]

Wally Wood Jim Steranko Gil Kane Neal Adams

[@nichtsschlagteinenastronau7782]

John Buscema. Greetings from Germany.

[@thumbsaloft]

The work Kirby did at DC is my absolute favorite!

[@2muchwit]

Yeah

[@Elric33239]

@4everfrankenstein You obviously never read "Origins of Marvel Comics" and the volumes that followed! Stan CONTINUOUSLY gives Jack credit for the work he did on all of the books that they collaborated on! He also gave Ditko credit for co-creating the Spiderman and Dr. Strange books! One of history's ironic moments is that most people aren't aware that Jack first drew Spiderman on the cover of Amazing Fantasy #15! Even the "We Love Steve Ditko" crowd refuse to accept that fact!

[@shawnje3072]

Stan became very considerate in later years regarding other talent. But if you read letter pages and interviews and the like from the '70s and '80s, He barely considered anyone else and when he did it always came off as a back-handed compliment.

[@Elric33239]

@YusakuJon3 -- the freelancers often get shafted; the company boys go along, and keep their salaries. Finally! A voice of reason! It continually pisses me of how "True Believers" love to blame Stan for Jack's being shafted by Marvel execs! I for one don't doubt that Stan's offer was genuine and Jack preferred working on his own clock instead of Marvel's. Sadly, that's what happens when you make bad career choices even if they are for noble reasons - you get hosed by The Moneymen!

[@itzjoeymac]

always thought Jack should have been the 'art director' since he already was lol

[@peace8381]

Is that his lawyer? It seems this time he didn't stuck in traffic. 😂

[@Elric33239]

@4everfrankenstein That's because Stan was an employee at Marvel as opposed to a freelancer who was paid a one-time fee for the work that he did on the books like Jack & Steve. I agree that it's completely unfair, but Stan didn't write the rules! The guys who signed the checks did!

[@Elric33239]

@SHEMAMAN Son of Origins of Marvel Comics Page205 - 208 tell the entire story and at no point did Stan hog all of the credit for himself! He even stated IN PRINT that it was Jack's illustration and explanation of his origin that made the character possible and even when The Surfer had his own book, John Buscema drew it and Stan insisted on writing the plots and dialogue for the character even though Roy Thomas took over many of his other books at the time!

[@jamesbega]

Was Kirby screwed? fucking absolutely! but I don't see how this is Lee's fault. Anyways, even though Kriby and Ditko were the main creative force behind marvel, to imply that Lee wasn't creative, or talented is ridiculous.

[@benmiddleton9984]

Bryan Bega Agreed

[@2muchwit]

I mean he never made his own ideas and ripped off DC a lot. But he was the author ill give that

[@Tellin08]

From what I've researched from reading and watching many interviews from employees who worked at marvel the only thing that Stan Lee did was help sell the comics. Even the personal assistant of Jack Kirby said that the biggest thing he - the assistant himself - did to help Jack was verbally congratulate him on his work. Jack Kirby was practically a one man team: he created the core story, characters, and core pencil work for each Comic Page. He worked for most of the time he was awake. Nobody can tell you anything that Stan lee did when it comes to working on the comics themselves. He may have had some general guidelines here and there but they weren't even followed most of the time and Stan didn't even know what Jack Kirby was planning most of the time either. To have Stan lee's name under anything other than the publishing/marketing category is just pure sleazy. All of the new fans of Marvel and Superheroes think Stan created most of it all or even 50% which is also a lie. You have a guy, Jack Kirby, who couldn't even drive because he was so immersed in every waking moment of his life thinking of his next story and to say that he wasn't the main force behind all of the amazing stories and superheroes is just shortsighted.

[@paulakroy2635]

Tellin08 Story of kingpin creation. Stan Lee I want this guy named kingpin John rimta creates back story powers appearance and the whole story about him. Stan Lee: I created kingpin

[@jcl5611]

@@paulakroy2635 Source?

[@jojoheartspaypay]

Im just glad theres a comment section for this.

[@roscoe679]

Funky Flashman

[@Elric33239]

@brabon1 Were you there when they had that conversation? Stan has said that numerous times and unless you have proof otherwise, I'll believe Stan when he said that he offered him the Art Director job! The fact that DC treated Jack as badly as Marvel and Jack made no effort to start up a new company from scratch would indicate that he preferred freelancing to "sitting behind a desk!"

[@jeffnettleton3858]

Stan's story of trying to get Jack an art director staff job is a bone of contention. According to Mark Evanier, who was an assistant to Kirby, the main driving force in Kirby leaving was the security of his family. His daughter suffered from asthma and doctors recommended a dryer climate and Jack moved the family to California. he sought health insurance to care for his family and Goodman denied it and treated Kirby like crap. Jack then approached DC and publisher carmine Infantino was more than glad to steal Marvel's top creative talent and did so (and also Ditko, by way of Charlton Comics and Dick Giordano). DC's promises to Kirby were not upheld, but his contract to produce a certain number of pages per month was. Kirby's books sold better than other DC books that were not cancelled, when the Fourth World was, but he cost them more than those other creators. Plus, there was a long seated jealousy of Kirby at DC, that went back to the 40s, when Simon & Kirby came in on a lucrative deal, with total control of their work, as well as a piece of the profits. When Kirby returned there, in the 50s, doing Green Lantern, after closing his own company, he was treated like less than s@#$. Jack was exploited by a lot of people, because he was more concerned about earning a living to support his family than standing up for his talent. he was a product of the slums and the depression, supporting his parents at a young age, through his art.

[@itzjoeymac]

imagine the greatness Marvel could have achieved if Kirby had taken Stan's offer! OMG!

[@otherpeople8903]

Stan wasn't the boss, and like always his words are more fluff than substance, I wouldn't take what he said, 30+ years after the fact, as fact.

[@TheScarecrowDrawing]

So thats who Funky Flashman is based off of! :D

[@jcl5611]

Who?

[@shawnje3072]

@@jcl5611 Stan Lee

[@benmiddleton9984]

It is a shame that Jack Kirby doesn't get enough credit and is overshadowed by Stan Lee. But to discredit Stan Lee is asinine. Stan Lee had just as much to do with Marvel' success as Jack. Stan was an artistic genius who brought the ideas to Jack who would then draw what Stan visualized in his head. You can't have one without the other. Discrediting Stan Lee is ridiculous! Lee has given Jack Kirby full credit over the years for his artistic abilities.

[@AnonymousSilence-nd3zb]

Preach, brother. For fuck's sake, he made Jack's style the house style of Marvel in the '60s because of A) How popular Jack was as an artist by the fans and B) How much Stan loved Jack's work personally.

[@shawnje3072]

False, Stan was a business man and a romance author. Any crazy, wild ideas in the characters is mostly Kirby's doing. Stan Lee contributed alot to the industry but, unfortunately, the industry and public have bought into his self-created grandeur. I suggest reading some Fourth World by Kirby and you'll realize how little (though some) Stan brought to the page. And I think there is argument that it's better for it. The industry will never be able to recognize HOW important Kirby was because he was a hard working introvert in a house of used car salesmen who thought they were movie producers.

[@langreeves6419]

Absolutely true As great and phenomenal of an artist Jack was, Stan didn't think Jack's Spider-Man looked good. Stan was right. Stan got Ditko to do Spider-Man instead. One of Stan's GREAT talents was leadership and knowing who to put on which jobs! Stan tried many other writers, but no one could write as good as Stan. He finally found Roy Thomas, and Stan knew he'd found the right author. Many including myself think Thomas a better writer than Lee. Again, Kirby is King! He's GREAT! But if you read Jack's work without Stan, it becomes abundantly clear how important Stan's writing and editing were.

[@trollheyman2703]

Wait so you think jack kirby was just an artist that drew stan Lee's ideas? You must not know much about comics history my dude. Maybe you should do more research on jack king kirby the legend.

[@trollheyman2703]

@@shawnje3072 you are a legit legend for your comment my good sir these people truly dont understand how great jack kirby was. I couldn't have said what you said better💯

[@sdratlas]

OMAC #1 was an awesome read.

[@AnonymousSilence-nd3zb]

Sounds to me that all the bullshit regarding Stan being a thief was a bit exaggerated. It really seemed he wanted to give Jack equal pay and recognition at Marvel. Maybe it's my own bias because I love Stan so much, but I also have a lot of love for Jack. However, if Stan's account here is true, which, admittedly is a big if since Stan is known to misremember stuff, then it seems that Jack was being more stubborn than it just being Stan taking all the credit. IDK. I just feel the need to put things into perspective. IMO, Stan and Jack deserve equal credit on their creations. I'm tired of hearing the arguments about which of the 2 deserved more credit. Can we all agree they did things equally, for the most part?

[@upon136]

He's not a thief but the head's of marvel is to blame for not advertising jack Kirby at all. It's so sad that the man who had so much impact on pop culture and the comic industry Was never recognize for his work until he passed that's just so sad in addition marvel never made a tribute

[@AnonymousSilence-nd3zb]

@@upon136 Never advertised? There's no person I can think of who was praised and advertised more in the old Lee/Kirby books than Jack himself. Stan wrote the soapboxes, sure, but there were PLENTY of issues of _Fantastic Four_ where Stan praised Jack for his work. Again, from the sounds of it, Stan was very keen on actually having Jack be hired for greater pay and recognition at Marvel. Jack was the one who insisted on staying freelance, obviously feeling that that was somehow the better way around...

[@petermj1098]

@@AnonymousSilence-nd3zb It was Jacks own fault for not claiming ownership of the characters. He always got credit but he never had ownership of the characters. Like you said only did the art as a freelance job. If Jack actually cared about the Marvel characters he drew like his babies he would be suing but he never did. Stan always treated the characters like his babies because he is the substance behind the characters- Kirby only did the style.

[@AliFareedMC]

@@petermj1098 LOL

[@AliFareedMC]

Stan Lee was a Liar, sadly for 57 years he is peddling this bullshit to people

[@jamesbega]

Well, after Ditko left spider-man, Lee and Romita Sr. produced dozens of great comics (Romita has said before that Lee's plotting and scripting was very instrumental to the books success) after that he pretty much left comics to work on television projects. Unfortunately, these (striperella, Who wants to be a superhero, etc.) were terrible. But Kirby wasn't bulletproof either. His return to marvel ('70s Captain America, Machine Man, Eternals) was very underwhelming.

[@jcl5611]

@L Ron Cupboard Source?

[@pulsarstargrave256]

From what I vaguelyremember from reading Mark Evanier's comments about this specific issue was the job Stan offered would require Jack to live in New York but Jack was planning to, or already had moved, to California, due to his wife, Roz' health! The job eventually went to John Romita.

[@peace8381]

Funky Flashman is lying.

[@jcl5611]

Fuck off, you're just jealous

[@drsoe08]

@@jcl5611 anyone with a half of a brain knows that Lee is lying lmao

[@jcl5611]

@@drsoe08 Lying about what? Kirby being a talented artist and storyteller as well as his friend?

[@bruvamichal7437]

R.I.P

[@alltaken678]

I wish these Stan Lee haters would at least get their basic facts straight. For example: 1) Stan Lee was an employee of the company his entire career. He never received any royalties on any of the characters. Period. 2) All work done at that time, including Stan Lee's, was done as "work-for-hire," meaning that the company owned anything that was created. Stan Lee did not own the company or any part of it. 3) Stan Lee was the editor of Marvel comics, so of course he was the one who went out promoting them. And he did a damn fine job of it. What's wrong with that? 4) Stan Lee was the first, and for a long time the only comic book editor to give credit to everyone involved. If it weren't for Stan Lee, we wouldn't even know Kirby and Ditko's names. 5) Stan Lee repeatedly, in the pages of Marvel comics, gave credit to the artists for helping to plot the stories. That's what the "Marvel Method" was, and it was Stan who told us about it. 6) Kirby was offered a job at DC in the late 60s and turned it down. Obviously he didn't hate Marvel that bad. He switched to DC when Marvel was taken over by a new company and he wasn't given what he had been promised by Marvel publisher Martin Goodman. 7) Kirby's experience at DC was worse than anything that endured at Marvel. He was not given the editorial freedom he was promised, and all of his books failed to catch on. That's why he went back to Marvel. 8) It's true that Stan Lee never created anything like the original Marvel Universe again, but neither has anyone else, including Kirby and Ditko. (As awesome as Kirby's Fourth World books were, they lasted less than two years, and they lacked the heart that made the early-60s Marvel characters so successful.) It was something that has happened only once, and everyone has always known that those three guys were the primary members of the team that made it happen. We know that because Stan Lee told us. 9) Finally, most of the hatred for Stan Lee is based on comments made by people other than Kirby and Ditko, and most of them came about when Jim Shooter at Marvel, not Stan Lee, refused to return Kirby's original art. Kirby did make disparaging remarks in his last years, but some of them were so divorced from the truth that even Ditko broke a decade-long silence to correct him. There is no evidence to support the idea that Kirby and Ditko single-handedly created those characters without Stan Lee's involvement.

[@MartinWasTaken]

Well Jack didn't create everything but Stan Lee borderline didn't create anything. There is easy proof for that. Why didn't Stan Lee create or co-create anything impressive after Jack and Ditko pulled out?

[@alltaken678]

Well, we're all here because we're fans of what came out of Marvel in the 60s, right? All I'm saying is let's stick to the facts we know. It's obviously inaccurate to think Stan Lee did it all himself, but it's equally inaccurate to say he had nothing to do with it. If you haven't checked them out yet, I highly recommend two books: "Tales to Astonish: Jack Kirby, Stan Lee, and the American Comic Book Revolution," written by Ronin Ro, more a Kirby fan than a Lee fan. "Stan Lee and the Rise and Fall of the American Comic Book," written by Jordan Raphael and Tom Spurgeon. Rapheal and Spurgeon are plenty critical of Lee, but you still get a more balanced view than you'll hear from those pushing the "Stan Lee is the devil" line.

[@alltaken678]

It always interests me when people use The Doom Patrol and Challengers of the Unknown as evidence against Stan Lee. To me they are proof positive that he brought an extra layer to the creative process, namely making the Marvel heroes human and fallible. The X-Men were and are a brilliant commentary on prejudice, substituting mutant powers for race, religion, etc. Doom Patrol had none of that. The Fantastic Four argued amongst themselves and had fairly realistic relationships--romantic relationships (Reed and Sue), sibling relationships (Sue and Johnny), and old friendships (Reed and Ben). Challengers had no such depth. With Stan Lee, you get X-Men and the FF. Without him you get Doom Patrol and Challengers. You read what you want, but I'll stick with Marvel.

[@alltaken678]

As far as The Avengers being based on the JLA, Marvel (Timely) had the All-Winners Squad in 1946. All superhero comic companies have teamed their heroes together at one time or another. That's not a particularly brilliant idea, so not really a part of the argument for or against Stan Lee. Personally the JLA is the one place where I preferred DC over Marvel for the most part.

[@alltaken678]

Also, as far as X-Men being a rip-off of the Doom Patrol, there was an X-Men prototype story in Amazing Adult Fantasy #14, more than a year before Doom Patrol, in which a young man discovers he has mutant powers and faces animosity for it. He is rescued by being lifted away telekinetically by a bald man who speaks to him telepathically, telling him, "You are not alone! There are many of us. . .many "mutants" as mankind calls us!! Mutants who have powers that human beings never dreamed of!!" The voice further explains that they must all live in hiding until mankind is ready. That story was by Lee and Ditko, by the way, not Kirby. So much for the Doom Patrol coming first.

[@notmyname5591]

Good ol funky flashman

[@Elric33239]

@Cavebot And the fact that Stan continued to work with other talented artists AFTER JACK LEFT AND RETURNED AND LEFT, DC Comics offered Stan a chance to develop new stories based on established characters and Stan now runs his own company obviously proves that he's nothing without Jack Kirby!

[@SHEMAMAN]

I was on the verge of crying when watching the FF-rise of the Silver Surfer movie. Stan is a wonderful man. I've met him and he's a generous spirit, but most people on the outskirts of comic book history still think he alone created the characters we love today. Shame then that nobody is publicly rectifying this appalling oversight. For example, the Surfer is wholly Jacks creation, but you wouldn't know that from the film.

[@drandomvideocritic]

There's a lot of ambiguity that Stan definitely was leaving out regarding the publisher, who happened to be a close relative of his. I don't believe that he was unaware of why Kirby left Marvel, Stan "the man" is often cited as one of the main reasons why Kirby left for DC. That being said, read a Spider-Man or F4 book back in the 60's, and then look at this. I'll give Kirby sole credit for Thor and the stuff onwards, but can you honestly tell me that anybody else could have written Spider-Man other than Stan Lee?

[@croinkix]

Ditko

[@AnonymousSilence-nd3zb]

To be perfectly honest, the only 2 Marvel-related stories/characters I give Jack sole credit for were the Silver Surfer, which was his completely original idea, and most of the _Tales of Asgard_ backups being printed in _Journey Into Mystery_ . Other than that, it's a yin and yang between Stan and Jack. You couldn't have one without the other.

[@rickrivers2021]

Ditko didn't just draw, he wrote brilliant plots. Stan Lee used dialogue to soften the character and make him more conflicted. Both were necessary, but Ditko always should be mentioned as a crucial element for the character

[@AnonymousSilence-nd3zb]

@@rickrivers2021 Steve came up with decent plots but his writing style was ass. I believe he wrote _Amazing Spider-Man_ #24 or #25, which was the first time he was granted a writing credit, and it was terrible compared to Stan's.

[@rickrivers2021]

@@AnonymousSilence-nd3zb I'd have to reread them to be sure, but if I remember right, those were quite enjoyable. Further, I've found his The Question stories quite enjoyable as well, with the exception of his first story, which had a slow and awkward start. Mysterious Suspense 1 is quite suspenseful in it's build up, with one problem after another piling on top until it climaxes with one big satisfying brawl and ends with a solid wrap up that really digs into the theme. Seems pretty similar to Spider-Man, including Spider-Man before he got full credits. And he had a massive role in plot before he got story credits as well, btw. The way Lee and others describe 'the Marvel method' clearly indicates that the details of plot are figured out by the artist.

[@justingonzalez2035]

Thank you stan lee for fulfilling prophecy, may you rest in peace in heaven

[@OfLanceTheLonginus]

Upset

[@JStrange13]

For all their close collaboration in comics, Stan and Jack were never close friends, and I think there was much mutual misunderstanding between the two. Stan has always personally credited Jack with being an equal creative partner, and I don't think he understands that he was the only one who was seeing Jack's importance, back then.

[@YusakuJon3]

Very interesting. I always wanted to see what the Man's POV on the King's departure was, and it sort of cements a view that I have of office politics in American industry -- the freelancers often get shafted; the company boys go along, and keep their salaries. Nothing against Stan. He's quite a character. I wish I have a chance to spend some time with him. Hades! I wish I had the chance to spend time with Jack when I was a young buck still dreaming of a comicbook career.

[@themangoman9315]

Stan was the man but Kirby was the king

[@Elric33239]

@brabon1 To show you what an ignoramus that I am, I'll name two: 1. Iron Man - Plot by Stan Lee, Script by Larry Lieber(Stan's Brother), Art by Don Heck 2. Daredevil - Written by Stan Lee, Illustrated by Bill Everett(creator of The Submariner) I can do some research and find more (like The (Cosmic) Captain Marvel #1that neither Jack nor Steve illustrated) but since I'm not getting paid to do your legwork, I'll leave it at these two.

[@itzjoeymac]

@SHEMAMAN The FF movies do give proper credit to Jack at the beginning of FF2 you can see CLEARLY 'from the comic by Stan Lee and Jack Kirby'. Of course, the Marvel movies only mention him at the end credits in small type. Something to do with them trying to rob him and him suing lol

[@armand2564]

Yes in some instance Stan did work together with the guys

[@robbob35]

The greatest team, by far, in all of comic book history. Arguably one of the greatest teams in all creative history regardless of genre.

[@s1nner_]

Jack was the brain and Stan was the heart

[@Bouya_Harumichi]

Yeah, we need both to live

[@negroslayer9145]

What about Steve

[@ramseyrocks]

@archer1949 Hell FUCKING Yes! I'm currently deep into DC's recent Hardcover reprints of Kirby's NEW GODS and it's insanely hard to stay afloat under the crashing waves of his imagination. I read his 8 issues of OMAC before this and the concepts and sinisterness is simply bonkers and genius at the same time

[@Elric33239]

@brabon1 Did it mention why Jack came back to Marvel after he left DC? Did it mention why none of the titles that he worked on as a writer/artist didn't sell as well as his collaborations with Stan? I'll look for this book to determine that if you're too busy!

[@shawnje3072]

True, sales diminished but, as far as I've read time and again, it's because DC editorial would not let him wrap up his New Gods saga as he originally envisioned.

[@enrgy-xh5uq]

Kirby was the man!

[@mothanahussein83]

All i need to know about Stan is that he sells his characters out for hollywood to chop up, anyone with passion and love for their characters would never do such a thing.

[@Lonkka665]

"...publisher Archie Goodwin..." Erm, could it be that you've mistaken the editor-par-excellence Archie Goodwin with Martin Goodman the publisher?

[@hammerofharpel]

Jack left because publisher Archie Goodwin gave him a horrible offer. Jack always believed that if you did good for the company, they would take care of you. I don't know if Stan ever made such an offer. This comes from a bio of Jack Kirby I read recently. Kirby, in interviews, credits himself for the Fantastic Four. Lee seems to have a good memory for stuff he creates and forgets when it comes to stuff others created. I miss Jack. He was the king of comics.

[@jeffnettleton3858]

Archie Goodwin was not publisher of Marvel, ever. He wasn't even Editor-in-Chief, in 1970. He was an editor for Warren and then freelancing and writing the Secret Agent Corrigan newspaper strip, then working at DC. The publisher and owner was Martin Goodman, Stan's cousin-in-law, who gave hi his job at Marvel, as a teenager and kept him on, when he let the rest of the staff go, in the 50s. Goodman was a real SOB; Archie Goodwin was as close to a saint as you will find in comics and one of the finest writers and editors to grace the industry.

[@JStrange13]

I don't think Stan would lie about it, if that's what you're suggesting.

[@blank557]

Jack never got royalties for all his creations. Stan Lee often took a shade too much credit for creating comic characters that wer at the very least 50% co-authored by the likes of Steve Diko, Jack Kirby, etc. More often than not, they were 100% created by the artists, but Stan tend to make them seem like he was the originator becasue he was Marvel's Mouthpiece.

[@Elric33239]

@brabon1 Where did I say that Kirby stole credit from him? I said that nobody gave Joe Simon as much credit for the titles that he co-created with people like Jack like "Captain America" as they're willing to give Jack credit for creating ALL of Marvel/Timely's characters! Obviously you're more interested in putting Jack on a pedestal so I'll leave you to it! It's been a pleasure wasting my time with you!

[@jacobgarrity9055]

Stan Lee is like Marvel version of Walt Disney and Jack Kirby is like the Ub Iwerks version

[@showregular1967]

i think jack just wanted to do more with his talent by more helping the rival to create 2 good etertaining universes to watch/read

[@hammerofharpel]

@4everfrankenstein Thanks for catching that and you are right!

[@ursamajor5234]

Based on my research only thing right now Lee never was a real part of was Captain America,Wolverine and Carol Danvers

[@jimmyvolakis5194]

Neither Venom, Cable, and Deadpool

[@Mike_The_1950s_Historian]

@SHEMAMAN Very sad to read how the Surfer character was essentially taken from him. No disrespect to Stan Lee, since he was great at dialogue, but the plots and characters, I believe, were Kirby's. As for the movie...Galactus as a cloud? Ouch....

[@itzjoeymac]

It's too bad Jack didn't take that offer but let's be realistic. Kirby was never going to leave that old drawing board!

[@maths23]

Is that the one when Orion found out that Darkseid is his father.

[@Elric33239]

@brabon1 Having Iron Man and Daredevil appear as guest stars in other books and illustrating Iron Man appearances in The Avengers has nothing to do with "creating characters!" And you didn't specifically say "when they left Marvel!" You said when they weren't part of The Bullpen which could also mean "that they weren't personally involved in creating the characters!"

[@Elric33239]

@brabon1 While you and others would like to believe that Jack and Steve did everything for Marvel while Stan was sitting on his hands stealing the credit, you've conveniently forgotten that while Jack and Steve are legends in their own right, so was Stan because they didn't come up with all of the "Marvel ideas!" As for Jack, why isn't anyone defending Joe Simon, who co-created Captain America, like Stan did at Comic-Con recently? Do people think that Jack created HIM all by himself?

[@PizzaBoy1235]

Anvilofcrom why are you using the one of the illuminatis symbols?

[@sgreen4]

There are many people who are saying Stan Lee is a liar in the comments below. Stan Lee doesn't always have the best memory. Even when he was writing his comics, he would give characters the same initials because it would help him remember their names. Now that he is older, he sometimes forgets things. Like who created what and who should be given credit for what.

[@Elric33239]

@HOOLIGANISM1982 Stan's bosses obviously disagreed with your POV! As for Stan lying, it's amazing how many people have witnessed this event and can confirm that Stan didn't say that! Where did you buy your time machines, folks?

[@step3892]

I recall being shocked and saddened when the great Kirby suddenly left the FF and Marvel. No one can adequately follow him on a title, especially the FF which he created and was so intimately identified with. However, Kirby was simply not a good writer and his writing at DC was amateurish and clumsy, with cardboard one-dimensional characters that delivered "superficial visual punch" but lacked substance. His word balloons and dialogue were especially hard to read and I had to keep rereading them to understand what was being said. Verbal communication between characters was very choppy, disconnected, and not fluid. In short, reading his words was like "skating over cobblestones." I also think Stan knows more about Kirby leaving Marvel than he is saying here. To their credit, he and Jack always remained professional and respectful of each other and never resorted to mudslinging...good for these two great people!

[@step3892]

@NutflixOnline Really? This does not sound like Lee's style of verbiage at all. I never heard of such! Where did you get this information? Was it from a reliable source, or did it emerge from idle tabletalk gossip?

[@MaliVinnyB]

Now I KNOW...Jack Kirby MADE MARVEL!!!

[@middleman9183]

not without Stan

[@TheFlyingFresh]

jack kirby is the king, steve ditko is the ruler, and stan lee is the father. These are the gods of comics! PRAISE THEM!!

[@pdromero09]

Why didn't Stan refresh his offer to Jack when he came back? I think it might have meant more to him the second time around. It just seems odd. I know Jack was very independent and always felt he could make more free lancing, so maybe that was always going to be off the table.

[@savageone777]

You sound just like a Trump lover who doesn't want to believe he did no wrong.

[@itzjoeymac]

New Gods 7 is the best comic EVER MADE

[@angelvalle9963]

Thank god kirby did leave because he created gems everywhere his pencil went they dont call him the king for nothing.

[@HULKmyLOVE]

Not everyone be like stan lee and not everyone can be like jack Kirby .

[@AliFareedMC]

You can be like Stan Lee, you need people like Jack Kirby to exploit

[@middleman9183]

@@AliFareedMC there was no exploitation

[@levaithan325]

i kinda see your point but thor has nothing to do with superman, thor is a norse god from norse mythology like zues if from greek mythology, thor was around long before superman, not marvel thor but mythology thor, they just turned him into a superhero but before all that he was a god, that people actually believed and still probably believe in. but everything else with green arrow and stuff i see your point oh and you forgot namor who is basically aquaman with few alterations.

[@levaithan325]

jack created darkside? wow i need to learn more about this guy than cause darkside is like one of the most powerful beings in DC he has one of the most powerful attacks to, the omega beam, i heard he also made etrigon, the rhyming demon, im not of fan of him but thats only cause ive only seen him in action like once in JLU

[@afonsolucas2219]

It's written: Darkseid.

[@worldofpaul12]

@BlakeVII no stan is actually like part of this group that helps new comic creator be well new comic creator widout marvels help hejust does them favors

[@2muchwit]

Still didnt say how he threw his s**t in the dumpster that he didnt like

[@Ztrigg]

Yeah Jack Kirby left to go to DC 'cause he wasn't getting paid enough or recognition. But he came back to Marvel after DC 'cause he got the same ol' "ballgame". I got that out of the Jack Kirby documentary. If only Stan took the time to watch it, or pay attention to Jack in the first place.

[@Elric33239]

@brabon1 And while Stan could be called a "figurehead" by people like you, at least he's getting paid for it! Also the "scamming" was perpetuated by others, not Stan!

[@Drichansa]

@fakestanlee And co-create the modern era of comics, don't forget that.

[@pussymonster1514]

Stan Lee fuckin robbed him.

[@alltaken678]

Of what? They were both employees of the company and their work was all "work-for-hire." The company owned everything they created, not Stan Lee.

[@whuspr]

@@alltaken678 So, you'd be okay with someone taking credit of your life work and your legacy, as well?

[@followthewhiterabbit2549]

@@alltaken678 You are wrong! Stan Lee was a formal employee of Marvel but Jack Kirby wasn't, he was a freelancer and worked at his home in the garage. The owner of Marvel, Martin Goodman knew that it is a high risk to have all of your famous characters being created not by employees but instead by freelancers like Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko. Martin Goodman knew that intelectual property belongs to the writer, so he commanded Stan Lee, his formal employee to put his name on everything the company produced as a "writer" and always first in the credits. Why ? For legal issues of course.

[@ClanHellbone]

@@alltaken678 a company that was owned by his cousin in law which then sold after Kirby left Marvel

[@thewkovacs316]

i asked mark evanier about this stan comment stan never offered jack a regular gig and jack wouldve been paid more had he been given sole writer credit....which he deserved

[@ShadowKnight1886-1994]

Spiderman will always belong to stan lee if it wern't foe him the character wouldn't exist

[@savageone777]

another false statement Kirby came up with the idea first and if Ditko didn't draw it and also rewrote stans corny writing then it would not exist after awhile Ditko just wrote and drew it and just handed it to stan.Stan put his name on it and never gave Ditko co creator credit such a jerk

[@AliFareedMC]

Without Steve Ditko Spiderman will be a novel nobody will read

[@joseluisgomezdecena]

Stan Lee has not created one relevant thing outside his “partnership” with Jack Kirby, while Jack Kirby has created numerous things pre-Stan and post-Stan. Do the research. SL is a con man. He knew JK had nowhere to go. DC’s editor in chief at the time had beef with Kirby. And he didn’t want to go to Charlton who had just bought out his former company of Mainline. He was stuck at Marvel and SL made sure he stayed stuck thanks to the Marvel Method: “you do most of the work, we get half the credit.” There were no scripts in the Marvel Method. Artist and SL “talked it out” and artist, presumably, followed the writer. Once JK has gifted by a violin by his mom; he threw it out the window. That’s his mom! He loved his mom to death; he killed 3 Nazis while unarmed because they insulted his mom, that’s JK. So to assume you can tell JK what story to “tell” is preposterous. This guy has been doing comics for 30 years before SL came into the picture. SL is a nepotistic stand in for his uncle Martin who owned Marvel, btw, he went from mailroom to editor’s desk in no time. Martin was known for being a grade A asshole, reprinting unpaid artwork or pulp stories, not paying artists at all, slithering away from paying taxes, you name it. That was the Marvel culture. You think SL would have the balls to go against that culture and shake up his solid future in the company if he only played ball? He played ball wholeheartedly. Everyone fucked JK. Even Joe Simon, who was paid off by Marvel for Captain America, a pay day he hid and didn’t share with Jack. We’re still fucking over Jack today by acqueiscing to the lie: “Created by STAN LEE and JACK KIRBY.” That motherfucker did not create shit. While JK created the genre of romance comics, created the symbol of American comics: Captain America. He created the seminal Marvel universe, complete with visual back stories with notes on the gutter for SL to follow his lead on and write snazzy dialogue. Dialogue is the con man’s currency, that’s why SL is a natural actor. The guy’s hair is fake, the guy’s smile is fake, the guy’s credits are fake. How do hell can you write a comic book when JK worked from home!!! What did SL create exactly? Let’s explore this. Because he didn’t write it panel by panel or page by page as what writers do now with, you know, SCRIPTS! SL didn’t describe the actions in a panel or the expressed emotions on the characters or what they were doing and wearing - hell, Alan Moore even describes the dust mites. So what exactly did SL write or create? Nothing. You worked and he got credit. If he got credit, you see, he got paid as the writer. That’s why Wally Wood left Marvel. That’s why Steve Ditko left Marvel. These guys were bachelors. JK had 3 kids a wife and mortgage and nowhere to go. Did you know New Gods was supposed to be part of the Marvel Universe? But Jack hesitated. It was too good, too good to be stolen by SL. That’s why JK went to DC when that editor he hated and hated him left. That’s why he insisted to get “story and art” credit. JK essentially taught the fundamentals of superhero art. He made it up, all on his own; he was not formerly educated. He just did it. He had an average output of 1000 pages a year when the regular artist would do just over 300. He made up his own architecture, his own weaponry, his own style of anatomy and shading, his own costumes, gadgetry and effects. After WW2 American comics found their way into Japan. Which single artist do you think influenced the Japanese consciousness more than JK? Where would manga’s awesome action scenes be without JK’s initial exploration with speed lines? Shaider is fucking OMAC and Shaider’s arch nemesis is based on MODOK. JK’s soul runs deep in our pop culture, so deep it’s hard to see. After Marvel, JK went into animation, influencing some of my favorite cartoons, like the Centurions, and still, to this day, his work remains the fundamentals upon any superhero artists’ chops rest on. What the fuck do we SL to thank for? Nothing, but his dialogue and editorial skills. Which is what, ten percent of the creation process, and that’s being generous. JK literally had to tell SL what was going and what character was saying what with his notes on the gutter. That’s why Marvel won’t release his works to him. Then it’ll be known, SL didn’t write anything. Yet it persists. Everytime I see “Created by STAN LEE and JACK KIRBY” it boils my blood. Did JK ask anything of you? Did JK make a big deal about the credit of creation being stolen from him? That wasn’t his thing. He felt it was petty. He loved his work. I love his work. You know, it’s rare when the hero’s work matches the hero’s character. John Lennon was a good artist, but only in relation to the Beatles, specifically Cartney. In all his 5 or 7 albums post Beatles, which I listened to, he had 2 good songs, Imagine and Beautiful Boy. The rest were experimental bullshit or love songs to the ugly flat-assed Yoko. When John said the Beatles were more famous than JC. He wasn’t exactly telling the truth. After having read an autobiography written by a family friend of the Lennons, I surmise, what he really meant was “John Lennon was more popular than JC.” He neglects his first child and obsesses with his 2nd. I don’t think Julian was even in his will. Post-Beatles: Cartney, pops into his NY apartment and John has a bitch fit because Paul didn’t call first. Asshole. Classic examples aligned with the Woody Allens, Roman Polanskis, Billy Cosbys. Great artists, but real life assholes. Kirby was a hero in and out of the spotlight. So if you respect him and his work, the least you can do is this. When someone brings up SL created any shit with Jack, please correct them. Well, do your research, then correct them. Google it.

[@hendrixisgod777]

Spider-Man.

[@kingxtable5038]

Guys they are gods.

[@thespaceram2879]

Lord Jesus Christ is the One that is God as you'll find out on judgement day. If one doesnt willing accept Him as their Savior, unfortunately those will be judged of their wrongs by Him and then will be thrown by His angels into the lake of fire and brimstone. Where there is weeping and the gashing of teeth.

[@ClanHellbone]

@@thespaceram2879 you misspelled Jack Kirby

[@thespaceram2879]

@@ClanHellbone Stan Lee and Jack Kirby are no different from you and me. We all will be judged by God=Lord Jesus Christ (Yahushua Hama Shiach) on judgement day when He summons all of the living and the dead to the Holy site in Israel. Even the ones that crucified Him will all be there and will know who He is. As will everyone.

[@LuisDiazArtist]

Stan Lee's family owned Marvel Comics. Stan Lee was a cousin to Jean who was married to Martin Goodman who was the publisher of Marvel Comics in the 1960's. If Kirby was related to Goodman in some way Kirby would not have had any problems.

[@alltaken678]

Goodman screwed Stan too. Stan never got any financial reward from Goodman other than his salary as editor. When the company was sold to some media company, the new owners were shocked at how little Stan Lee was making after all the success Marvel had had. They upped his salary, but he never owned any part of the company and never got royalties from the characters. Also, Kirby's biggest problems happened under Jim Shooter, not Stan Lee. It was Shooter who refused to return his original artwork.

[@56postoffice]

alltaken678 So all this time I was wrong about Stan. Sorry, Stan. F**k you, Jim Shooter. Thief.

[@savageone777]

Nope, stan's cousin in law owned timely magazine but his uncle divorced stan's cousin so no more connection.Timely became Marvel but either way, stan took credit from everyone and sold his name to any product he even made a shitty company which he sold and didn't tell the buyer no characters were included in the deal and he had a lawsuit put on him plus many others. he is a snake oil salesman.

[@savageone777]

@@alltaken678 You have no clue as to what happened. Stan had 70 to 80 million when he died. he did very well and in the 90's when I used to bring pages to marvel he was making a million a year.

[@alltaken678]

@@savageone777 Yes, he was making a SALARY of $1 million/year as publisher and then chairman emeritus. He was NOT making that money because he owned the Marvel characters, so he was NOT making that money at the expense of Kirby or anyone else. Contracts in all areas of entertainment got better with each decade, and by the 90s, $1 mil wasn't uncommon for any CEO-level exec, especially when they do such a good job of promoting the company. Nothing you've said changes anything I said, and it certainly doesn't mean I "have no clue" about what happened. The fact that you Stan-haters are so emotional and insulting just proves you've already made up your mind.

[@rigsby1454]

'I stole his ideas'

[@benelliott3792]

So all along Stan asked Jack to work with him as a partner. Huh. Makes you feel less like Jack got screwed over and instead preferred being a free agent. The deals artists got at the time we’re pretty raw, whichever company he worked at. He probably would have been better off had he stayed.

[@jackdexx]

misleading title

[@69oldcat]

This is what is known as fake news. He's had time to think this answer over for quite some time.

[@KISSKRUISERS]

Duttyman, that's what this is all about, unlike stan and, sadly, you, we DO remember who made mavel what it is. Had Kirby not saved marvel, (along with Steve Ditko, Don Heck and a few others.) stan lie..er um..lee, would be little more than a footnote in comics history. Stop drinking the kool-aid, Duttyman and perhaps when your head clears, you'll see the forest for the trees.

[@o82774]

I LOVE Stan.. Met him as a kid. Great guy. Err...clearly he's lying. His body language coy "innocent" "dumb bunny" "I dunno" while he looks at the sky and whisltes demeanor is sadly telling. "Jack would have made the same salary as me" Come on. That NEVER happened lol. its a compelling bluff though. We all got skeletons in the closet. Jack is Stan's. I love em both though. Excelsior!

[@babychannel8758]

I used to like Stan Lee before I found out that he is a liar. He didn't create anything. He was a good dialogue writer and promoter but Kirby created the entire Marvel universe except for Doctor Strange, The Submariner, and to a degree, Spider-man. Kirby brought the name, Spiderman and many aspects of that character to Lee who then gave the character to Steve Ditko who really fleshed out the character and made something out of him. Ditko was the second genius at Marvel back in the early to mid sixties. Lee is a very rich, fraud.

[@benmiddleton9984]

The Trickie Dickie Show none of that is true. Stan Lee had a hand in all of Marvel's characters. The X Men was all lee'. It is a shame that Jack Kirby doesn't get enough credit and is overshadowed by Stan Lee. But to discredit Stan Lee is asinine. Stan Lee had just as much to do with Marvel' success as Jack. Stan was an artistic genius who brought the ideas to Jack who would then draw what Stan visualized in his head. You can't have one without the other. Discrediting Stan Lee is ridiculous! Lee has given Jack Kirby full credit over the years for his artistic abilities.

[@benmiddleton9984]

Steve Ditko along would Stan Lee created the Spider-Man that we all know and love today. Jack Kirby had nothing to do with the modern-day Spider-Man

[@flappospammo]

well said lee was a fraud , kirby was a genius

[@toyhunter2903]

@@benmiddleton9984 Are you sure? Research who was the man who draw the cover of Amazing Fantasy #15, who by the way is the first Spider-Man appearance. That iconic and awesome cover. I'm just talking about the cover not the interior artwork.

[@badfoody]

Thief. He didn't move to make Jack Kirby better.

[@zebunker]

What a bunch of BS.

[@jcl5611]

Go fuck yourself

[@ShadowKnight1886-1994]

Kirby overated honestly he ain't perfect far from it but good artist though but overated

[@space.pirate481]

overrated really?

[@AliFareedMC]

@@space.pirate481 i think he meant stan lee

[@paulakroy2635]

Disgusting

[@caracallaseverus3412]

Yes they both where Jews. Stan Lee isn't being honest. Jack Kirby left Marvel due to Lee undermining him every step of the way. Just look at one of Kirby's first DC Characters: Darkseid. Stan Lee was holding him back, I believe that Lee was scared of Kirby's talent.

[@maximusbig]

You are totally right about Stan Lee. The guy left Marvel and created ZILCH nada oh yeah Stripperella, LOL! The artists were robbed , Kirby was a God in the genre and kept Marvel going. Funny to see that when the co creation period stopped Stan Lee developped NOTHING remarkable. I repeat the guy is a rip off artist. By the way tomorrow it's either Aquaman or Captain Marvel that is coming out of the closet. Sweet Jesus give me a break. Money destroys everything.

[@benmiddleton9984]

maximusbig oh PLEEEEASE! It is a shame that Jack Kirby doesn't get enough credit and is overshadowed by Stan Lee. But to discredit Stan Lee is asinine. Stan Lee had just as much to do with Marvel' success as Jack. Stan was an artistic genius who brought the ideas to Jack who would then draw what Stan visualized in his head. You can't have one without the other. Discrediting Stan Lee is ridiculous! Lee has given Jack Kirby full credit over the years for his artistic abilities.

[@ClanHellbone]

@@benmiddleton9984 what characters he created after Kirby and Ditko left?

[@STNKbone]

Except Jack Kirby made all those characters, Stan only wrote the dialogue, he didn't even write most of the plots.

[@benmiddleton9984]

STNKbone not true. Stan had a hand in all of the earlier characters. Spider-Man, The Incredible Hulk, X-MEN,ect

[@Gamer-lq4wl]

@@benmiddleton9984 "Hello, everyone. I'm Jack Kirby. I created the Marvel Universe. Maybe you've heard of it." Jack Kirby, during his guest of Honor speech at the very first San Diego Comic Con, August 2, 1970. This single line earned him a standing ovation.