Star Trek Deep Space Nine Ruminations S5E04: Nor The Battle To The Strong

[@Norvo82]

As I recall, the creators wrote this episode specifically as a present to Cirroc Lofton on his eighteenth birthday: handing him a meaty part to really stretch his acting muscles.

[@williamozier918]

That's awesome. He stepped up. This is one of my top ten Trek episodes period.

[@TheMarcHicks]

Actually, there was a callback to this episode during A Call to Arms, when Jake is helping Bashir in the Infiirmary.

[@newfontherock]

Insightful as always. I particularly enjoyed Sisko‘s comments on Jake’s reflection at the end. He admits that many soldiers could see themselves in this piece. Also, the work of a writer is shown to be so important, especially during wartime, and that the ability to share one’s cowardice is itself it’s own courage.

[@fredaf3700]

As a follow up, I'm also surprised you didn't comment on Sisko's reflections as well, as they relate to Bashier, whom was also reading Jake's story. Basher knew something was eating at Jake, when he snapped at the medical people. For Basher to read that he was abandoned... by someone so afraid, that the boy ran head long into even worse horrors; one wonders what Julian might have said to said to Jake, if they hadn't ended right there.

[@DerBeppone]

@@fredaf3700 Yeah, a Bashier reaction to the piece Jake wrote would've been insightful in this circumstance. I feel Bashier's arc regarding Jake wasn't quite closed here.

[@XalenMaru]

One of the most human episodes of DS9 for me. Definitely the best Jake episode. I watch it once a year at least.

[@ZemplinTemplar]

A "cult favourite" DS9 episode for me as well. :-) As you said, "very human". :-)

[@ReZerO100]

i remember when i worked at a gas station years ago,was robbed at knife point, the odd thing was that i literally could not process what was happening while it happened. what came to mind was that it was some bad joke. it didn't hit me until they walked out with the money. that's when i figured out i was being robbed.

[@jmiester25]

This episode blew my mind.

[@stevencoardvenice]

Its good

[@badmaninc.536]

Fantastic episode. Does have sort of a MASH feel to it, which is great. It does bring to mind a joke as well... “why is Sisko better than Kirk? Sisko actually saved his son from the Klingons.” Thank you for another great rumination Lore!

[@hamhockbeans]

Great example but if its was not for Kirk there would be no Sisko. Cough cough Vger, Alien Prone no Earth no Sisko.

[@williamozier918]

If someone asked me what episodes shows what Star Trek is all about, not my favorites, but episodes that show the core message of the show that makes people love the show: TOS Errand of Mercy, TNG The Chase, VOY Blink, DISCO The Vulcan Hello, and for DS9 this episode actually.

[@danielyeshe]

Blink? That is a Doctor Who episode. Do you mean the one with the planet living at a different rate of time?

[@robslack5468]

One of my absolute favorites

[@dylanlewis5113]

"Let me tell you about scared. Your heart is beating so hard I can feel it through your hands. There’s so much blood and oxygen pumping through your brain it’s like rocket fuel. Right now you could run faster and you could fight harder, you could jump higher than ever in your life. And you are so alert it’s like you can slow down time. What’s wrong with scared? Scared is a superpower. It’s your superpower." The Twelfth Doctor

[@MissTea_Trekkie]

I am watching this as soon as I get home!!! I love this episode! I would love a perspective of a military person. I saw this episode as very realistic story the acting, but I wonder how those who live it feel.

[@stevencoardvenice]

Why would you want to make a military person talk about this ? Its horrible

[@DerBeppone]

At this point I can tell that DS9 takes reign of my favourite Trek alltogether. While TNG very much makes the moral and ethical meat of my make up, I love the grounded approach, and the subtleness, that we actually see the ramification of paradise's dessicions and Treaty happines. Those are all things, you don't really see on a star ship, because they are just gonna be moved around like the chess figures they naturally are. Star Ship Crews usually don't have to deal with the nitty grittieness of being grounded and having to rely on outside connections, since they are the outside connection themselves. So yeah, so much as Ira Steven Behr wanted to tear down the idea of a paradise federation, so much he really didn't need to. Because in the outside dealings we still have got so many grey areas and so many people, who have to endure the consequences of outside politic's fallouts. e.g: The Maquis (soo much missed potential, considering this) Which is probably only natural on the frontier. Circumstances and borders still change relatively sudden out there. Also, by zooming into these occasions we start to care about the odds, because we are living it through with these people. It is freaking easy to lose touch with the rammifications about decissions at the green table, although I think also that is important sometimes, in order for a state to stay functional.

[@timf7413]

I really like this episode, but it feels like it probably would have fit a lot better in season 4 when the show was really cranking on the conflict with the Klingons. The entire "breached cease fire" things feels like a conceit that was shoehorned in to give the episode a reason to exist.

[@BleydTorvall]

I don't see what Jake did in this episode as true cowardice, but merely the lack of bravery, and I do not consider those two things the same. To me, lacking bravery means you do the reasonably expected thing in the face of danger, while cowardice means lying, cheating, or otherwise breaking trust in order to avoid said danger. Jake is a civilian, the expected thing for a civilian to do in a combat zone is to take cover, hide, and if possible, run away in order to preserve one's own life, which is exactly what Jake did. A member of Starfleet is in a different situation. When they joined Starfleet, they were entrusted with safeguarding the lives of others, so abandoning them to run away would be breaking trust, and therefore cowardice. The soldier who shot himself in the foot to escape the fighting is a coward, but Jake is merely not brave. He doesn't go above and beyond the reasonable expectation of his station, but he also doesn't break any trust that others should reasonably have had in him.

[@mr51406]

A good but very tough episode. Jake Sisko as either young Hemingway or Tintin. But Jake isn’t either. He’s not an egomaniac like Hemingway. He resembles Tintin more, an innocent, a pure heart. But Tintin is fantasy and never covered the trenches. But good for the creators to give Lofton something substantial to do so he can become something else than just the captain’s son. He’ll always keep his idealism as we will see in a year.

[@jackbates7467]

So this is why we just watched a lighthearted Wuv episode.

[@Yura-Sensei]

Hmm.. maybe calling cowardice normal is not the best word. I'd say it's natural

[@EnvisionerWill]

The big reason to portray cowardice so negatively is that, if you're in the army and your squad buddy is a coward who you can't count on to watch your back, then you're less willing to take a mission that requires you to expose your back. Convincing soldiers to be suicidally fearless is ultimately the best way to serve the recruitment needs of an army that wants to be able to either go conquer a neighbor or deal with a neighbor's aggression (which is often the result of your own provocations of them). Therefore, most of our culture's storytelling is ultimately, to some extent or another, propaganda designed to recruit people into "serving their country" and putting their life on the line; that agenda requires the lauding of courage as the highest of virtues, because it's necessary to convince people to obey orders even when it means facing overwhelming risks.

[@stevencoardvenice]

I'm 100 percent antiwar. However, our team's soldiers must abide by these rules or else our team will lose to a team that does abide by these rules

[@mykin3945]

You know, Star Trek has the Holodeck. We've seen episodes where it was used to relive combat situations. You think Starfleet requires everyone that joins to go through simulations multiple times to prevent them from panicking in real situations like this episode? I doubt it, considering the actions of some people in this episode. But if not, then why? Is Starfleet so adverse to combat that they refuse to even train their people for situations like this? If so, then how realistic does it have to be in order to trick the brain into forgetting that it is just a simulation? I don't really have an answer to any of this. I just thought about the holodeck when Lore was talking about panicking and wondered all of the above. Seems like it would be something someone would have tried at some point.

[@timf7413]

I would guess that they do, but as Lorerunner points out here, training will never be exactly the same as reality.

[@dwrdwlsn5]

Fear is a survival trait. It in and of itself is not bad. Cowardice is normal for sane people. Civilians with no training, equipment or ability should not instantly be Rambo.

[@fredaf3700]

Btw, I think it was that you skipped the pregnancy discussion; although Quark's tone, does make me wonder if he was being sincere; or if he was joking just to get the ire up of the women in the room.

[@ryanmiller6605]

Freda F I was thinking the same thing especially since his comment caught Jadzia off guard, someone who hangs out with Ferengi enough that you’d think she’d have heard that already if it was true

[@oryanstar1010]

MY THOUGHTS ON NARRATION IS THATHE MAY NOT BE NECESSARY FOR THE STORY BUT ITS NECESSARY FOR ANYBODY THAT CAN'T SEE WHAT IS GOING ON NOT EVERYBODY HAS GOOD EYESIGHT TO BE ABLE TO SEE ALL THE DETAILS

[@gcooper642]

"That's why you don't send a civillian into a combat zone". Maybe we should show this episode to all the gym bros heading to Ukraine at the moment.

[@sharkdentures3247]

Wow! First. Literally! (refreshed my KZbin & this came up post 13 seconds ago)

[@athrunzala6919]

Don't watch this episode much, it seems out of place with its true grittiness But it was great performances by everyone. Feels like it should have been in last season when there was conflict with the Klingons so that it wasn't a contrived reason for this season after peace was coming back into play.