Star Trek Deep Space Nine Ruminations S7E16: Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges

[@danielduggan5405]

This is the episode that really made me appreciate Barry Jenner's Admiral Ross. Great as Sadler and Siddig are in this, Jenner is one of the unsung heroes of the final 2 seasons of DS9. He really allows us to see Ross as a battle-weary man who sees himself as responsible for sending thousands of men and women to their deaths in the war. The fact that he's willing to do anything to prevent it shows his humanity, flaws and all.

[@kurtistharp2031]

Absolutely loves this episode, really drove the final nail in the coffin for the Roddenberry era when they fully embraced the idea that the federation had a dark side

[@satyagrahaa]

However, I enjoyed that they still acknowledged that optimistic, moral people like Bashir are also required. Therefore kind of bridging the two. Because let’s be honest, if everyone in Starfleet was like Sloane, it would be no better than the Klingons or Romulans.

[@seaconfused]

Episodes like this made DS9 the incredible series that still is, 27 years later. Damn we need that HD badly (and sadly we never gona get it).

[@seaconfused]

@Michael Lane In January will be 28!

[@F4m1LyGuy10]

@@seaconfused And now 30. ;-;

[@jmiester25]

Before I start listening, i just wanna say that THIS episode is my second favorite episode across all of Star Trek. 🖖

[@connormccloy9399]

What's your favorite episode then?

[@jmiester25]

@@connormccloy9399 Tapestry

[@jamesp8164]

Great episode, dealing with the nasty business that can be geopolitics. The title even references it. Inter Arm Enim Silent Leges: translated from Latin roughly means, "In times of war, the law is silent." The quote is credited to Roman scholar and statesman Cicero. Cicero clearly understood the problems and realities of statecraft and how these bump up against ideology and morality.

[@mr51406]

Episodes like this one show that DS9 could have had *3* more seasons with an expanded setting, including Section 31. Or I would have pitched for a “Route 66” style anthological continuation of the setting which could include DS9 and eventually Voyager characters, more on Romulans, and one could be the history of “31” as an intro to the NX01 era.

[@Saundersj1701]

I always personally believed that Bashir called off security just because he thought it would be pointless, that not only would they probably not catch Sloan but that even if they did they wouldn’t be able to tie him to Section 31 in any tangible way so he would walk free. Perhaps there was that but the other point of view you put forward is also valid, maybe it was a combination of both

[@SchneeflockeMonsoon]

Random thought I got from jumping over from Voyager. Wouldn’t it be so dark if the plague that S31 unleashed on the Founders was the Phage? Yeah, I know the timeline doesn’t line up, but that would have been such a blow, especially since the Doctor (someone intimately familiar with all things medical) was the one sent back.

[@Akechi_The_Phantom_Detective]

Cool thought.

[@TeutonicKnight92]

It’s easy to be a saint in paradise

[@stuartwald2395]

A small item: It is stated that Koval "works" for Section 31. I doubt that he was recruited at a young age to be fully loyal to Section 31 and then advanced through the Tal'Shiar for his full career (or that he is a human or Vulcan masquerading as a Romulan). It is more likely that either (a) Section 31 has something on Koval that keeps him in line, but he is resentful about the situation and therefore dangerous, or (b) he is a contact, a free agent who exchanges information and influence with Section 31 for his own motives but is not "working" for the Federation, either by loyalty or because he is compelled to.

[@Tim85-y2q]

The dress whites are also seen one final time during the wedding scene in Nemesis.

[@tonebonebgky2]

The reason Bashir cancels the call to security is both reasons, he realizes he is not going to catch Sloan while at the same time he brings a point that Bashir hadn't considered and I think that's the main reason why he cancels the call (although he definitely isn't going to catch Sloan).

[@felixbenkenstein4904]

Lore starts the episode (recorded over a year ago) talking about the concept of triage: Considering current events, that's a little bit creepy. I would guess that the Continuing Comittee is based on the Politburo Standing Committee of the Chinese Communist Party

[@Afterburner215]

A bit late but: at the beginning of the episode where Bashir meets Sloan again, Bashir says that he could scream for help but Sloan disagrees as it would be 'Possible, but uncharacteristic' and 'too undignified for [Bashir]'. I think this is a lampshade lean against the panned S1 episode 'Move Along Home', where Bashir, indeed, screams for help.

[@athrunzala6919]

I liked the "A few Good Men" referance from Sloan at the end there. 'You need people like me protecting good people like you' thing. On the flip side, the last few lines between Ross and Bashir (where we get the title from) seemed forced writing to me. It's like they just wanted to use those lines and tried writing a way up to them to justify them.

[@speciesto3065]

Your willingness to spy on your allies should equal your willingness to get caught by them and your ability to deal with the ramifications of that. The best spies have had slip ups in real life and been caught (unlike in movies, of course) and even had random events that blow their cover (an unfortunately timed traffic stop, or an intrepid investigative reporter). You could do it, but if your cover is accidentally blown it can create an international incident that causes more harm than the good you get from spying.

[@aredub1847]

trust but verify

[@EnvisionerWill]

I think I'd have to say this is my single favorite episode of DS9. I get to watch it again tonight, and last night I got to see my favorite TNG episode, "Timescape".

[@johnpotts8308]

I agree that Ross' position is the interesting one: it makes sense that he sees Section 31 as a necessary evil. And it makes sense that as you climb the ranks, you'd get more pragmatic and dispassionate about principles because you HAVE to see the big picture. I always assumed Bashir didn't call Security because Sloane had exhibited the ability to breeze through them in the past (which he should be able to, given how connected he appears to be). It hadn't actually occurred to me that he might come to see Sloane as having a point (and given how things will go between them in Invasive Procedures, he clearly doesn't think Sloan's actions are right, even on a pragmatic level),

[@ChocolatierRob]

I'd personally go with option 1 - He knew it would be pointless. However I'd add a possible option 3 which is this but with a little more - He knew it would be pointless _now._ As in he'll not uselessly flail around now but will instead prepare for next time. Option 1 as it currently stands implies 'well I lost, they won. Game over" whereas option 3 is 'I lost this round but I'll prepare for the next'.

[@tougheddie7297]

Happy Christmas lore

[@ohgoditshimrun1346]

Thirty seconds. For commbadge to Odo, and Odo to demand emergency transport to Bashir's location. Bashir is certainly aware of Odo's regeneration cycle, to know whether or not he's on duty at the moment. And of course, it could be a bluff.

[@manco828]

For all of Bashir's protests, you know that he enjoys the hell out of being a spy!

[@theonlymatthew.l]

To answer your question, I feel Bashir didn't bother calling security because he realised the ultimate futility of it. Even though I agree with the more pragmatic side, I never got the impression that Bashir felt the slightest kinship with that line of thinking..

[@anthonyjordanmoviesandmore2470]

You know it kind of makes you wonder Kirk was an admiral for a little bit did he know about section 31 I mean I know it technically didn't exist at that time but retroactively it kind of makes you wonder

[@ShadowStoryteller]

Being head of Starfleet Operations, he would have been aware of Starfleet Intelligence Operations to a degree. Thirty-One, being the secretive organization that it is, could just put *their* operations in with SI's and no one would be the wiser. Plus, Kirk was a Rear Admiral, Lower Half. That's just one step above "at the kid's table" but two steps below "the big table".

[@KnightRaymund]

I really like this episode too. And I've always interpreted that last scene the second way, the way you wanted Bashir to react. He begrudgingly sees some logic in Sloan's words. But he still hates it. And that's why he doesn't budge with Ross. They do it in this scene instead.

[@kblargh]

I think both are true, but the determining factor is the former. Bashir is angry at having been manipulated into a tool for what he considers to be an immoral reprehensible act. He looked Cretak in the eye, asked for her trust, and then unwittingly burned her for it, and that stings - which of course it does, he's a good man. I think that's part of what fuels Bashir's outrage at Ross - he wasn't looking at this form the outside, he was an active participant in ruining someone who didn't deserve it; and accepting that might on some level mean he's fine with the fate that at that very moment is befalling her, and would likely continue to befall her for the rest of her life. But at the same time, i think he sees Ross's side of it as well - his own countrymen are dropping like flies and something has to be done about it. And from that moment there is no good answer, you will hate yourself no matter what you do. Bashir has the (this is too harsh a word, but i don't have a better one) luxury of not having had to make that call. So he can yell at Ross for a while and come out of it with his conscience half clear (this isn't demeaning Bashir, he is in a genuinely horrible position), but he also doesn't pursue the matter further because - i think - he can see the merits. Ross isn't killing puppies in order to sell their blood to the BORG, he's cooperating in a surgical strike in order to save untold millions of lives. When Sloan drops in his room later, Bashir doesn't put forth the same argument he had with Ross earlier (and arguably, with himself) - this time, it's all personal. How Sloan manipulated (and arguably humiliated) him, going so far as to attack Sloan's supposed dedication to protecting the innocence of men like him, and Sloan just smiles, because he gets it. He doesn't blame or belittle Bashir - though his demeanor may come off as slightly condescending - he knows it's not his fault, but there's also nothing he can say to him that would satisfy him. They have a fundamental fracture in how they live their lives, and that just can't be mended. Now when Bashir called Security, i think that if he thought there was a real chance they could catch Sloan, he would have reported it. If he thought there wasn't, but thought Sloan was someone who absolutely, positively had to be stopped, he would have reported it as he himself lunged after Sloan into the living room, because Bashir. But both factors combined made into "I'm gonna bother this guy over something he can do nothing about, for what?". And so he gave up on it. (Yes i realize now all i needed to write was the last paragraph, but i'm not gonna go now and delete all that. So there.)

[@DaneFalco]

it;s kinda cool they bring back the actor to play the main romulan from the TNG episode with Jordi being conditioned and tortured.... it's the same guy that was conditioning him.

[@XalenMaru]

If you read the books, this is isn't the end of Ross's involvement with S31 unfortunately. Things take a very shocking turn.

[@manco828]

Bashir had a lot of nerve talking to an Admiral like that.

[@athrunzala6919]

I think Basghir didn't report Sloan at the end because he knew it was pointless, like the beginning of the episode (where they shoehorned in Ezri into the episode)

[@EnvisionerWill]

I wouldn't count this as part 1 of the finale, because the finale is normally spoken of as nine parts, and also because Penumbra is what kicks off all the story arcs that continue throughout the upcoming episodes. (Minor spoilers, I guess.) The other Sloane episode in s7 interrupts that sequence, or alternatively comes after it, because the episode after that is the last Ferengi episode and mostly doesn't have much to do with the arc, and then after that comes the finale in which the arc is completed. So it's really a six-episode arc, Penumbra through I think Tacking Into the Wind, and then the last Sloane show, and then the last Ferengi show, and then the last show. Those six episodes all feature the Breen, the capture and escape of Ezri and Worf, Pah Dukat trying to corrupt Kai Winn, all that. Those elements vanish so that an entire episode can revolve around Sloane, and at least some of them return in WYLB. So if you include the two "breather" episodes, then it's nine. The only real reason to count this as the tenth is because of the Sloane connection, but IMO that's incorrect.

[@heldengrab8312]

It reminds me of "the spy who came in from the cold". Granted thats one of the only spy books I have ever read

[@thezzzaappp]

Up until watching this rumination I believed the reason was that Bashir thought there was no point but something just occurred to me. SPOILERS! SPOILERS! Bashir cures Odo, but doesn’t give the cure to the founders. You’d think the principled Doctor would say “genocide is evil and he if I don’t cure them I’m complicit.” He was willing to tell the Romulans about 31 but not the dominion. I think part of him did reluctantly, begrudgingly accepted the reality. That as Sisko said “if it’s a choice between us and them there is no choice” PS I’m since you mentioned admirals are brought in the know I wonder if Picard was told. I could see them keeping him out because no way in hell he’d go along

[@thegreataugust327]

"It's a new word for evil." "Dominion" lol prophetic words.

[@steakman1989]

This is a fantastic episode and you do a good job deconstructing it. Though I do not particularly like espionage (especially since US intelligence agencies have a nasty habit of backing military coups against democratically elected governments) countries spying on their allies is a common thing countries do, and everyone knows that everyone is doing it, but they have to be careful about what they do with the information they gain and how they use it because if they get caught in a compromising situation every other country will go "quelle surprise" and it will harm diplomatic relations even though everyone is doing it to each other. A good example of this in history is the Zimmermann Telegram that brought the US into WWI. The US as a neutral country allowed Germany to use its diplomatic cables after the UK severed all of Germany's telegram lines (this was done in hopes that the US could help negotiate peace between the Allied and Central Powers). Germany used the cables to send coded messages with Mexico in hopes to get them to invade the US to keep the US from entering the war which was becoming more and more likely. The UK intercepted these telegrams but they could not immediately go the US government to show this because by doing so they would be admitting they were spying on the US telegraph cables. Even though the US and UK were not technically allied at this point, the US was on friendly terms with the UK and other allied powers and was on track to join the war effort on their side. So there was a lot of diplomatic finagling and hoodwinking to ensure the US got word of this communique without the UK admitting they were spying on the US.

[@TheVoided666]

I loved this episode!

[@Eelco_de_Boer]

Summary: Sloane (section31) asks Dr. Bashir to determine the medical condition of a Romulan senator, Koval. When Bashir finds out there might be a plot to kill the senator, he takes the Romulan he had interaction with on DS9, Kretak, in confidence, while Admiral Ross falls ill at an inconvenient moment. (one of the best DS9-episodes, possibly even better than In the Pale Moonlight :-) I love it.)

[@DerBeppone]

I'd like to think, that Bashir does in deed realise, that Sloan has got a point. I like how he sinks back on his bed, after he calls off security, with a bothered face. This right there could be the beginning of Bashirs arc, to get used to section 31s ways and accepting, that doing things for them might accomplish things for the greater good. Unfortunately we are running out of show.

[@JanetDax]

I used to be totally anti S31. Somewhat softened my position thanks to your analysis. Gave me an idea for a good idealism vs practicality story

[@rexremedy1733]

Sloan and Bashir are my heroes. I aspire to be a mixture of both. The conscience of Sloan, and the intelligence of Bashir.

[@charliedontsurf334]

I love this episode and it answers a lot of questions about the Federation, ones that TNG generally dodged. Not everyone that doesn't pull the party line is evil. People like Adm Pressman and Captain Jellicoe are as important and Picard. Speaking of, in Picard the series, 7 of 9 calls this out saying somethings to the effect that Picard is naive in his ideals. This episode is better than that one, because it still points out that the Picards and Bashirs are still important.

[@danieljliverslxxxix1164]

Never, ever, bring up STD or STP in arguments or debates.

[@TheVoided666]

Not only is Bashir's attempt to stop Sloan pointless, but the whole episode is all his fault. Bashir could have prevented it all if he simply would have not played along; like Sloan predicted he would.

[@adambowman8543]

I always viewed Section 31 as the Federations version of Hydra from Marvel comics. No to mention my personal opinion that all intelligence work should be controlled by the military and not directly in the hands of civilian agencies, and that all intelligence gathering should be kept on the up and up at all times.

[@sicily7220]

Security in 30 seconds sure Site to Site Transport one or more personnel. You have assume command living structure are in a secured location.

[@adammcnabb3874]

What does the name mean

[@Eelco_de_Boer]

In war, the law falls silent, as Admiral Ross states. The leaders will turn a blind eye for acts done by the military.

[@saxbend]

The unofficial Bill and Ted spinoff

[@manco828]

Unfortunately, the upcoming Section 31 show will be ruined by Kurtzman.

[@Akechi_The_Phantom_Detective]

Unfortunately, I feel you might be right. After seeing how wonderfully Sloan and the writing was for this episode in setting up Section to seeing the meme version it's become now I'm very cynical it's new depiction can introduce something new.

[@0-Armsauce-0]

One thing I still don't understand about this episode is why Koval interrogated/tortured Bashir. I must be missing something becuse that didn't seem like a crucial part of the plan, and just seemed unnecessary to me.

[@Akechi_The_Phantom_Detective]

It's because Koval wanted to present Bashir before the council to share his side while not having him executed. In order to do that Julian had to believe that Sloan was attempting to murder Koval and more importantly that Koval believed that threat on his life. Not to mention and this is just a nitpick on my part... Julian kind of deserves it in this episode.

[@johnnybwrexter9828]

Lore's point at the end about Bashir being X and Slone being Y is good. The federation publicly/ morally should always be X. I would like to think that Ian.m.banks probably would like this episode.. it has shades of the Culture and its dirty tricks dept. SC. Both do the same job of supporting the ideals of the parent society... while subverting them..

[@jimschuler8830]

Spying on allies is just being polite. Otherwise you're saying they don't matter to pay attention to.

[@matthewhannigan4666]

You should only spy on your allies if your really good at spying.

[@grantlloyd9131]

9:47 - I hate those uniforms.

[@Crazael]

I have never had issue with Section 31 as an idea, but I always thought it was implemented badly. The Federation should absolutely have an intelligence service. The only reason it didn't was because Roddenberry's absurd ideas about how humanity will behave in the future. Section 31, however, is in many ways worse. It's some kind of secret organization that predates the Federation and has insane levels of authority and freedom of action.

[@sicily7220]

Bashir is someone I call book smart, but lacks in common sense or some call street smarts. For example, Bashir is someone who could figure out of how to fix poor inner cities problem, however Bashir would not know how to live in the same environment. Bashir could calculate the cost and materials of building a building, but not would be aware hung on a corrupt official or criminal element would have to be greased or public sale of the idea or lobbyists if the you wanted the building.

[@stanislavkostarnov2157]

spying on your allies is not necessarily wrong, but it is evil... whether you're alright with part of your society (the armed forces or a separate group) being evil for the general good, is a question of debate.

[@Akechi_The_Phantom_Detective]

I won't point fingers or mention any names but I very much see what you're getting at and it's a genuinely fair point. Though I'd wager the issue with such thinking is what happens when it's taken out into the wider world, because as Julian learned here the world might not share the same view.

[@aredub1847]

first i watch the ds9 video, then i log into wow.

[@EnvisionerWill]

If you're always focusing on the top-priority items, and the non-top-priority items are never getting done, HIRE MORE PEOPLE. Cheese and rice, people, this isn't brain surgery (even when it actually is).

[@pauldeegan6652]

The fact that some ships which require repair keep getting downgraded in priority suggests that Chief O’Brien isn’t nearly as capable of scheduling engineering work as we had always assumed.

[@Slevin-Kelevra]

First YOLO! 😁👍

[@frazerrhughess]

The name of this episode is way too long