Star Trek : Jobs, Money, and Replicators

[@HAL29209]

"Says fourth-tier KZbinr talking about Star Trek" haha dude you are an absolute legend. Keep up the great work

[@BobSperber]

Hal… that’s alotta Snark! I don’t mind anyone putting thought into the Star Trek universe. What you call a fourth tier KZbinr, I call someone who doesn’t spend his life trying to monetize and find merch sponsors.

[@adameanglin]

@@BobSperber Its self-deprecation. You don't get the comment.

[@BobSperber]

@@adameanglin it’s cool, I’m only partly smart part of the time.

[@EricKay_Scifi]

🔥🔥🔥

[@Nyet-Zdyes]

Oh man... I get the "fourth tier" comment... He doesn't have many subscribers... but I only watched 2, before I hit that subscribe button. The content and quality are EXCELLENT... and he *deserves* far more subscribers.

[@moojoos4496]

using my replicator rations to comment for the algorithm.

[@GeoffreyToday]

"I have 8 different bosses right now" made me think of watching Star Wars: The Acolyte the other day and noticing there were no less than 16 producers on that show :p

[@JoeySocko]

Anytime there is that many producers it's usually a dumpster fire.

[@Kinuhbud]

@@JoeySocko feckin' SIXTEEN DIFFERENT PRODUCERS?! fuck that bs--hollywood is so bloated the bubble burst is coming...

[@Nyet-Zdyes]

The Acolyte... digging a hole no one wants... at huge expense. A bunch of worthless jobs... starting with the aforementioned 16 producers.

[@EGRJ]

Wait. In the movies, "producer" is often an "honorary" title, so to speak. Do they always have actual power on TV?

[@GeoffreyToday]

@@EGRJ hard to know. A credit means a paycheck though, so if nothing else they're each a drain on the budget.

[@Detson404]

I think Starfleet is meant as a safety valve. The best, brightest, and most ambitious compete to join and are sent far away instead of sitting around Earth making trouble. In a post scarcity society, Starfleet postings are one of the last rivalrous goods. That’s why it’s so impossibly hard to get into the Academy.

[@mightybluespider]

I know you are growing into your own BECAUSE you combine the self-awareness and confidence to affect (effect?) self-effacing humor. The B&W format for the asides is an excellent touch

[@DadReadsAndCooksMeat]

If you can't remember whether to use "affect" or "effect," just say "impact."

[@MrMortull]

Affect, I believe. An effect is the consequence of something on something else, an *affect* is the way in which a thing or person does something. You effect someone's day, inducing a humour response, by affecting a silly walk.

[@Centurion101B3C]

@@MrMortull I disagree. To affect is to relate to a condition or circumstance. To effect is to instantiate a causal or existential presence. In this case presenter certainy causes existential presence of self-effacing humour and thus the term 'effect' applies. I mean, he does not primarily apply it as a condition or circumstance of his presentation.

[@PeculiarNotions]

Thank you for this nuanced and reasonable approach. Are you sure this is supposed to be on the internet?

[@cgmason7568]

I figured it out Paul Harrell as a historian

[@AlexS-zr2nb]

Holy shit you're right

[@platoplombo15]

Gonna miss his...Shatner-esque...pause3s

[@M33f3r]

That is top tier praise!

[@zombieshoot4318]

Yep. Works for me. 👍🏻

[@PostProteusKitten]

Lol spot on. Rest in Peace, Paul.

[@KK-my6hw]

There is no money, but some have more credits than others used to purchase everything. Everyone is equal, but some families have long histories of holding powerful and prestigious jobs and titles among themselves and look down on those that try to break into their class.

[@HolyknightVader999]

So basically, animal farm.

[@borgdroneof]

@@HolyknightVader999 its always animal farm

[@oldylad]

No it neccesarily. There are commodities still, things that can’t be replicated, or things that are unreplicatable or are “better than replicated”. Basically, it’s only useful when purchasing from outside of the federation, and it probably happens via the federation itself or an allowance for every citizen

[@Sekir80]

@@HolyknightVader999 What kind of animal farm... What?! JK, I know.

[@TheBrewjo]

I think the more we delve into the Economics of Starfleet, the more I'm forced to admit... Quark was right. The Federation has Section 31, Ferenginar has a few annoying Tax Agents and literally the most militant character has been a humble Assassin.

[@xBINARYGODx]

no, but the ferengy have other crimes to answer for - happily support wars no matter the consequences if it makes them a buck - how is that more moral? ALos, Section 31 are considered failings, and main characters fight against them. you seem to want to come to a conclusion ahead of time.

[@henryburby6077]

the liquidators of the Ferengi Commerce Authority are far more than just Tax Agents! How dare you!

[@occamsrazor1285]

@@xBINARYGODx "ALos, Section 31 are considered failings, and main characters fight against them." Section 31 was a necessity that no one wanted to think about. The Federation was almost naïve, and would have easily been dismantled for parts and macabre enjoyment without it. Section 31 was the fall guy that everyone needed in order to keep living in their bubble. As it turns out, that naivete cost a lot. And in the end, Sisko finally figured that out. And all because his depression over the death of his wife lead him to become disillusioned with Starfleet, which unexpectedly put him in the perfect position, with eyes wide open, to prevent the Federation from falling to its enemies. Q introduced the Federation to the Borg so it would be ready in time for the Dominion.

[@rubaiyat300]

@@occamsrazor1285 Section 31 are failures at every level. All we ever see is them fail in all their megalomaniacal schemes. Have a Romulan Senator willing to bridge the gap between societies? Have her liquidated and install someone dependent on your will. Great...except he does literally nothing to warn the Federation about Shinzon, and the Federation comes within hours of a mass decapitating strike. Control? Even the Founder virus is ultimately a failure.

[@heroofmalta9158]

Channels like this are true KZbin, reminds me I actually have good taste

[@KatanamasterV]

There are four algorithms

[@Sekir80]

You sure not five?

[@SidneyBroadshead]

Just ask David Warner how he'd create the Federation. No messing about replicating daffodils or butterflies. It'd be LASERS at 8 o'clock on Day One!

[@Buglips_D_Goblin]

One thing to consider about Chateau Picard is that it might not necessarily have been private property. It may be an inherited trust, a site of historical and cultural significance deemed worthy of preservation. It's theirs, generationally, but perhaps only because they have long been its caretakers and continued to produce heirs willing to take on the responsibility. Given all the other things one might choose to do with their life in that setting, there may not be a great surplus of people passionate about the cultivation of grapes. There are many preserved heritage sites like this even today that are occupied and maintained by those who occupy them. Some of them even generationally. But they are not true private property because they come with use restrictions. They can't modify them, modernize them, change them, sell them, or demolish them to build something new. They just get to occupy it because they're willing to preserve it. This may explain Chateau Picard, and that only Rene's sacrifice to stay and maintain it even gave Jean-Luc the freedom to go join starfleet.

[@feralhistorian]

That's possible. It does make me wonder about the seemingly private business establishments we see, most notably Sisco's restaurant and Cosimo's coffee shop. How much of the New Orleans and San Francisco real estate would be held in trust with caretaker operators in the old buildings and how often they get booted when something new needs to be built. I suppose that's one of Trek's strengths as a multi-generational franchise. It gives enough worldbuilding to hang the stories on but not so much detail to box you in. (edited for spelling)

[@Buglips_D_Goblin]

@@feralhistorian It's possible that there exists a civilian bureaucracy that establishes certain essential community needs and then seeks suitable candidates for them. So a restaurant might not be strictly necessary given the existence of replicators, but may serve an essential social function where people can go, do something different (human-cooked meals), and socialize. Some number of people like to cook even if they don't have to, they'd do it as a hobby if not a job. Joseph Sisko might be one of those types. So if he likes to cook creole/cajun anyway, and maybe he's the sentimental type attached to the culinary history of New Orleans, and the civilian administration has a suitable location in a neighbourhood that could use a social hub - match the two up and you get Sisko's. Joseph is living his best life, doing what he loves and is good at. I think in the episode where Jake is an old man that it's made explicit that since Jake is a writer and Ben is off trapped in the void that when Joseph passed on, Nathan took over but kept the name.

[@nlald]

@@Buglips_D_Goblin The civilian bureaucracy sounds an awful lot like central planning; or worse: an HOA.

[@steliosarvanitis5606]

​@@feralhistorianthe lore doesn't go into details about private property, the inheritance part stands, but the acquisition is never explained.

[@VinceLyle2161]

There are some things to remember from canon that can provide context: 1. The Third World War (and the Eugenics Wars, if you don't consider them part of the larger war). In the first episode of Strange New Worlds (and people still like that show enough to consider what it shows to be canon), Pike says that the nuclear exchange of 2053 caused the death of 30% of Earth's population. With rough numbers, we can estimate a drop from 9 billion to about 6 billion. Along with that, there's the devastation involved and the continuation of death from the Post-Atomic Horror. It's a brutal analogue to the real world issue of world population decline. China, Europe, the U.S., they're not replacing their people. But in the Star Trek future, ten years go by and people are still just scratching out a living (at least in Bozeman, Montana). Then the Vulcans reveal themselves and intractable problems start getting solved relatively quickly. When the Vulcans arrive, there's so much to do and not enough people to do it. People start having babies again, and really taking care of them so that they become contributing members of society. Also, the amount of work required for mere reconstruction creates full employment. Finally, since everyone has a stake in making Earth ready to step onto the galactic stage, there's a desire to work, to contribute, to make oneself and society (united, for a change) better. I'd suggest this work ethic becomes internalized over the many decades of Earth putting itself back together with the help of the Vulcans. Which leads to... 2. Colonization. When Enterprise NX-01 starts on its first mission of exploration, early episodes make it clear that Earth has several colonies. Other canon suggests these include Alpha and/or Proxima Centauri, Deneva, Vega Colony, and of course the other planets of the solar system like Mars and the Jovian moons. By the time Earth gets back on its feet, some would want to continue the work they'd gotten used to: farming, building, resource extraction, etc. Even at low warp factors, there are several star systems colonists could reach and make a start at. And they're not completely alone in the dark. After a few years, the boomers would show up in their freighters, ready to exchange trade goods. On these colonies, you would expect a sort of communal, everyone-in-it-together sort of living, trading the planet's prime resource for goods to sustain and build the colony. Filthy capitalism could come later. Or not. The point is, if we fast forward to Original Series' time or the Next Generation era, Earth may be doing things one way and the colonies may be echoing what Louis Brandeis said about the several states. Whereas the states are "laboratories of democracy," the colonies would "laboratories of economics," tailoring the way they create and exchange goods and services to their prime export goods, the things that tie them to the greater galactic civilization. By the time of the Next Generation, one could believe that the total human population was solidly in the double digits billions, but with a minority of those people living or having been born on Earth, which is commonly referred to as a paradise. 3. The Federation itself. While it's clear that the Federation is like a galactic European Union, it's nowhere near as sinister. Each member world retains its specific method of governance, its cultures, etc., but among them there is a commitment to be united for defense, exploration, and growth. Think the most enormous economies of scale you can conceive of and double it. Technology developed and shared among all members, improvements transmitting themselves across space at the speed of subspace radio. The cost of everything dropping to negligible amounts day after day after day. But humans would retain the memory of a devastating war in their recent past, they would retain the work ethic that came out of reconstruction and it would be married to "the dream of stars," pushing them to build colonies further and further out. I can see Earth using replicators and with not much use for money, but I can also see the far-flung colonies living with scarcity and acting with a unified purpose in a communal lifestyle.

[@torg2126]

More likely is that the colonies have normal economies, while the central worlds don't. Central worlds are effectively post scarcity, and don't need to employ most of their population. Said population, with the exception of the essential workers, entirely consists of hobbyist, performing jobs that either enable other hobbyists to maintain their activity, or follow their own. Colonies simply don't have the post scarcity economy to sustain that lifestyle, and most importantly, their population dosn't want that. They moved out to the frontier to get away from the central lifestyle, and do something objectively meaningful. This is the same personality type that makes up the majority if Starfleet. The other factor, demonstrated in Deep Space 9, is that there is a great divide between those populations, and the central population alienates the colonial population, to the point of abandoning them to genocidal foes. They don't get that anyone is willing to live outside of a paradise, or that colonists are anyone but glorified construction workers, who will build new Federation worlds, then move on to the next one. They genuinely don't believe that they're building homes, and are willing to fight for them.

[@VinceLyle2161]

@@torg2126 I thought that was the point I made in my post.

[@Svevsky]

Its kind of bitter that when we now talk about the EU the best way to describe it is as "the star trek federation, but evil"

[@boobah5643]

@@Svevsky Even so, the EU is arguably still a success. The central goal was to prevent the next iteration of a Franco-German war, and we haven't had one in eighty years.

[@guyguy7634]

What makes the EU Sinister? That’s does not make any sense, if it has problems that doesn’t make it inherently bad

[@williamvorkosigan5151]

I retired early at 41, once I had enough for my needs and my needs are modest. There has been no loss of self worth as I clean the house, do the shopping & keep track of my family finances as my only labour. My previous work was thankless, hard & long hours, it is not missed. I am not sure that anyone would choose to be the guy mopping up in the last clip, unless massive esteem came with doing the less glamourous tasks in life. There has never been an instant in Star Trek when everyone bursts into applause when the clean up on isle 6 guy arrives. There might be a lack of competition problem in Star Trek as they do seem to come up with the least ergonomic luggage & that hand torch looks like it would induce cramp after 5 minutes of use.

[@MidlifeCrisisJoe]

I appreciate the many digs at Paul Krugman. That tiny little man has done more damage to economic understanding in his awful little life than anyone currently alive, and that's a LOOOOOONG list.

[@TheHighSpaceWizard]

Says my favorite fourth tier youtuber talking about star trek.

[@NewSquallor]

May I interest you in some self-sealing stem bolts?

[@feralhistorian]

That depends. Do you like Yamok sauce?

[@rattelv426]

You're a good boy Nog.

[@shukilevyandbrookesheildsl2638]

Eh... kinda overstocked on the Stem Bolts. But, if you have any Beterret Incense, I could negotiate for that.

[@boobah5643]

What am I going to use self-stealing stem bolts for if I can't get my hands on a replacement samoflange?

[@christopherjohnson2634]

Yamok sauce makes me think of AI steak sauce for some reason

[@MM22966]

I still think removing a necessity to work in society is a REALLY bad idea, and I don't trust the real people proposing a UBI, but you got a lot closer to persuading me than many others, Feral! The lines about most real current jobs being make-work really hit hard. This was a very down-to-earth and grounded way to look at it, and the most clear-eyed presentation I have heard of for how Star Trek's hypothetical economy would work. As an aside, I thought your little aside jokes/musings were hilarious. "Says fourth-tier KZbinr talking about Star Trek", indeed!

[@SpaceMonkey23101]

This is one of the most interesting and relevant videos I've ever seen on YT. Thank you.

[@DrewLSsix]

I've always held that the presence of replicators on starships, where they can tap into a warp core for power if necessary, doesn't indicate that the bulk of the population gets its food from that source. And Voyagers rations support this. If replicated food for 150 or so people is a noticeable dent in the energy economy of a starship able to break a thousand times the speed of light, so noticeable that detours and delays to harvest baskets of fruit make any sense whatsoever, then its simply not likely that all 11 billion residents of earth, and the trillion or more residents of other member worlds all sibsist on replicated foods. It is likely thus that kost people eat farmed foods, and its only the balance point between storing massive amounts of food on a ship with limited space vs the cost to replicate most food on demand that makes the seemingly casual consumption of replicated food plausible. Farms warehouses and ohysical transportation networks make sense on a planet compared to burning vast amounts of energy just to make eating less of a chore.

[@Detson404]

I like it, but there are comments about how humans at minimum no longer use real animal products “we no longer enslave animals for food purposes.” Maybe meat is grown in vats and milk produced by modified yeasts but the most parsimonious explanation is that animal products are replicated.

[@torg2126]

​@@Detson404 vat grow meat is a lot more energy efficient, not to mention tastier than replication. Replicators struggle to reproduce complex molecules, like those responsible for taste. Industrial replicators simple have more extensive feedstock types, allowing them to produce more molecularly complex materials. Similarly, I suspect that high grade "kitchen replicators" simply have feedstock hoppers that are just buffers full of real food, easily rearranged into any desired form.

[@boobah5643]

@@torg2126 You're writing (or citing) fanfic in support of an idea you like. You'll forgive me if I fail to give it any weight whatsoever.

[@DairXV]

This is the first UBI/post-capitalist economic theory that I've personally heard that I am reasonably comfortable with. I'm sure there are a bunch of problems, and even details that need ironing out. But I can see some version of this working.

[@DocGadget11]

Earth doesn't use money anymore but the other members of the Federation use gold-pressed platinum for commerce. The Federation's credits come from the fact that some things can't be made with the replicators such as certain metals, if an object has a high degree of complexity in its molecular structure, certain medical compounds, weapons, and poisons. The items listed either has to be made by hand, in stages, or has to be mined from ore such as Dilithium crystals that are needed for the operation of pretty much every warp drive in star trek.

[@Josep_Hernandez_Lujan]

What Federation members do?

[@DocGadget11]

@@Josep_Hernandez_Lujan The Ferengi, The Klingon Empire, Bajor, The Tellarites and I believe Lurians as well

[@Josep_Hernandez_Lujan]

@@DocGadget11 Klingons, Ferengi, Bajor, Lurians aren't in the Federation.

[@J_n..]

If you count any state or Corporation today thats willing to accept $ as part of the US, you get a realy Long list

[@TylerWood-m1q]

You've managed to describe a formulation of currency that I don't thoroughly hate 👍 excellent video and at the perfect nexus of my interests. Thank you

[@sdhflkjshdfskdhfskljdhf582]

This is the kind of well-reasoned, comprehensive analysis presented directly and with a bit of humour that I would expect from a balding nerd on top of a mountai- Huh? "Smoke a bowl and watch Star Trek all day?" Ahhhh he's talking directly to me help

[@johnbarker8305]

"how many people work jobs producing something someone would voluntarily pay for...." Do you in Ottawa, Ontario, Canada? This city is majority civil service, all with fantastic benefits, wages, perqs, and inflation adjusted pensions because, why not, there's always more money wheree that came from. We have a Prime Minister who believes deficits 'fix themselves' and are meaningless. We have 'free healthcare' but the longest waits in the OECD, greatest spend outside the US but no technological development. We used to. We used to be the kings of medical technology. We watch our armed forces decay, while our government promotes use of MAID for veterans with PTSD. We had a former PM who gave a malaria medication to our elite troops, the Airborne Regiment, that was well known to cause psychotic reactions when administered in hot climates and then deployed the Airborne to Somalia as peacekeepers. And they had the absolute gall to act surprised when something went horribly wrong I would not voluntarily pay for probably 80% of government services and our current PM has increased the federal bureaucracy by 42% since he got in

[@leon06962]

The deficits do fix themselves because they are meaningless and the government can always create more of its own currency... until the currency is worthless. But that usually comes as a consequence of geopolitical realities, not anything inherent to money creation in itself.

[@dr.vikyll7466]

Let me guess Canada is ruled by "Keynesians" who are too afraid to actually do Keynesianism and do austerity on what matters and invest in the wrong things.

[@psikeyhackr6914]

Most people do not talk about planned obsolescence. Most consumers do not know enough about technology to figure out that they are going into debt for under-engineered junk. I have never owned a new car and have not been to an auto show in over 40 years. Buy used, pay cash, only buy liability insurance.

[@feralhistorian]

Solid advice.

[@edwardmorris3453]

I don't know what an auto show is. Sounds like something old duffers go to. Where they sell old cars. If I ever have that much moola, I'd buy an old car. More to your point, lenders are all in league to favor putting car-buyers into debt by excluding cars under twelve years. I am not rich, but I have never owned a new car, never leased one, never will. If I have the money, I will buy a beautiful OLD car, thank you very much. In my town, there is a 1979 Lincoln Continental for sale for just $6900-something. I don't have that money now. But I would rather save for something like that and drive my little Honda in the meanwhile, than funnel gobs of money into a 2013 Subaru or some nonsense.

[@Sekir80]

Disagreed. Those junk never under engineered. That is not a bug, that is a feature! When I was about 13 and on the course of becoming an engineer my very respected teacher mentioned that as engineers we have a duty to do that. That was a great break in me for his respect, you could tell, because I still remember it and still find it repulsive to the core.

[@psikeyhackr6914]

@@edwardmorris3453 An auto show happened every year, at least in major cities where auto manufacturers introduced the newest car models. It was around September. Of course I don't even know if they do it anymore. Haven't been since the 60s.

[@deshrektives]

“Think of whichever government agency or greedy corporation you find most objectionable for this exercise. Maybe it’s the ATF.” Damn, I came in expecting Star Trek economics, not a full-on Vulcan mind meld!

[@thedragondemands5186]

Can you make a standalone video on the failed Sanctuary Districts of the dystopian 2024 depicted in “Past Tense”? (Which you show some clips of) - also of note in Trek’s alternate 2024, Sean Finn comes to power in Ireland, France’s Assemblee Nationale has dissolved but the neo-communists voted in after that proved just as helpless to solve their problems, and the EU is “falling apart”. I actually think the episode was kind of even handed regarding Keynesian or Austrian responses to a global depression and mass unemployment: on the one hand the government has abandoned even the pretense of a social safety net, but Sisko himself acknowledges that there simply are no jobs for the government to hand out, and for the most part the overworked SD staff & guards are presented as helpless everyday people in a bad situation. They make it a point to say that some countries like France voted neo-communists into power thinking they could fix the global depression but they proved just as ineffective as the last guys. I think people miss the real point of the episode, which wasn’t so simplistic: Sisko’s speech directly saying that their problems seem so insurmountable that people have just GIVEN UP, and actually want to believe that they’ve “SOLVED” their homelessness problem when in truth they just swept it under the rug …and _willfully pretend the problem doesn’t even exist!_

[@feralhistorian]

It's a great episode. I'd forgotten it was set in 2024 until I loaded it for b-roll in this vid. It does deserve a more in-depth look.

[@JoeySocko]

Sweeping problems under the rug is what governments do best.

[@seand.g423]

​@joeplumley3238 you misspelled "humans", but it tracks, so...

[@DrewLSsix]

As troubled as Picard the series was, i actually really liked the portrayal of Raffi in season 1, some complain that because she effectively ended up homeless that the spirit of trek was violated. But what we actually see is a person choosing to stwp away from society as a whole, she still seems to have access to whatever she needs in the form of her tent and supplies, but most importantly, there seems to be absolutely no punishment for being homeless and no barrier to reentry to society. In our world, slipping into homelessness comes with punitive actions by society in retribution, including actions that make being not homeless exceedingly difficult.

[@logsupermulti3921]

My main problem with that portrayal, and the problem I've heard from my friends who watched it isn't that it was portrayed. But the fact Raffi used her living out in the desert over Picard to shame him. Comparing her living in the desert and Picard's vineyard as a class divide, something she was forced into and wasn't a conscious choice on her part. Which *does* violate the spirit of Trek.

[@SusCalvin]

One category of valuable object in Trek is antiquities. You can replicate as many chairs as you like but only one chair is the one Adam Smith sat in. Or an astrolabium from Portugals age of exploration, a rudder from a clipper ship etc.

[@Josep_Hernandez_Lujan]

And real alcohol..Many characters say they don't like replicated synthenol. Like Scotty and Bones. And enough people must drink Chateau Picard.

[@SusCalvin]

@@Josep_Hernandez_Lujan I think replicated food was something people complained about in several seasons. Someone has to be a pretty bad cook before a crew prefer replicated dishes. I imagine it's like how we complain when microwave food is off.

[@ideologybot4592]

reminds me of the car KZbinr Matt Farah talking about what collector cars to buy: "look for an experience that can't be replicated with technology."

[@CanadianPale]

"And that after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins When all men are paid for existing, and no man must pay for his sins, As surely as Water will wet us, as surely as Fire will burn, The Gods of the Copybook Headings, with terror and slaughter return..."

[@Rocketsong]

@mastercraftmainframe Absolutely, The Gods of the Copybook Headings.

[@johnbarker8305]

Was about to post this when I noticed what appears to be a fellow Canucklehead quoting the Good Mister K Excellent choice, like a fine wine on a tray full of Red Bull

[@CanadianPale]

@@johnbarker8305 one tries. One definitely tries. 🙂

[@chadnine3432]

I think it's pretty apparent that the original Trek series writers didn't think that money would stop being used in the future. Somewhere between TOS and TNG, Roddenberry got it in his head that they wouldn't use money in the future because money is bad, and writers have been dealing with that concept and how it would actually work ever since.

[@RedGeist]

Man I love your channel. Nerds on mountains spitting facts

[@Wayjourner]

This is such a unique take on it. Star Trek is an ideal, or at least someone's ideal, and of course if we ever approximate the federation's society even in a dilute manner then your point on energy and from where to tie wealth in such a system are food for thought. As an average joe who's ever really read into economics and isn't certain how this in of itself avoids increased costs, perhaps you or another commentor might be able to... dumb it down? If the value of a non-fiat or -not sure of the term- 'explorable-resource' linked currency is swapped out for a unit that is tied to the actual capacity of the economy, then wouldn't the supply price of goods based on any stipend of this currency still be impacted by inflation or deflation; if either of those is just the difference in valuation between goods and currency, and this stipend of UBIC precludes removing coin already provided to people, then any unexpected productivity from external factors not tied to the proceeds of the digital mining or the payments from publicly shared explorable-resources such as by competing private resource mining endeavours for instance, or the introduction of saved UBIC reserves into the market, then wouldn't inflation still result? Just trying to get my head around how to separate that out, or how hypothetically trackable all of this is.

[@feralhistorian]

I haven’t done the math on this, it’s very much at the thought-experiment stage, but it comes down to inflation being a function not just of total money supply, but the velocity of money. Or how often that money changes hands. So for example, if the government gives everyone a million Dollars it’s hyper-inflationary. But if at the same time they require everyone to have a bank account with a minimum balance of $1Million at all times, then it’s not inflationary at all because that money isn’t going anywhere, it’s just an administrative placeholder and can't drive prices up. Obviously a simplistic example because no one would ever do that, but you get the idea. So barebones, if we just made UBIC payouts equal to the total of all the current welfare and entitlement payments, tax refunds, etc., then we’re looking at the same amount of money in circulation. Maybe velocity goes up or down depending on how it settles, a lot of variables there. But we don’t actually want it to be totally stagnant. We want the total amount of money in circulation to grow at the same rate as the growth of the total economy to keep prices stable (barring real changes in cost of materials or production) Now say something happens like a major war and there just isn’t much to buy on the consumer market. If the same amount of money keeps flowing, building up a vast savings pool, that would likely lead to a spike in inflation when there’s something people want to buy again. But if UBIC is drawing from total economic activity, then the velocity of new UBIC slows too. People aren’t getting as much, but they don’t really notice because there’s not much to buy anyway. I have to stress that this only potentially works if it’s automated, open-source, and totally free of government interference. If the State runs it, it turns into a mess of rewarding some people, punishing others, and trying to fix everything with monetary policy. At this point it gets really complicated and answers need data we don’t have. In theory though if we had a solid baseline we could set up the UBIC system to automatically calculate and disburse just the right amount, divided across the entire population, to maintain that balance as economic activity ebbs and flows. What that would translate to for the individual citizen, I don’t know without spending a long day with a calculator, Fed numbers, and a bottle of Scotch.

[@Wayjourner]

​@@feralhistorian This clears it up significantly. Perhaps like Trek itself, UBIC is a bit hopeful. It's certainly like nothing I've heard before and you taking the time to respond and clarify your point is greatly appreciated. Maybe one day someone (with enough scotch and too much time) will take a gander at the numbers; probably can't be worse than its current alternatives.

[@krispalermo8133]

@@feralhistorian Local fried chicken fast food, .. Wings & legs are under size, due to cost of shipping and buying food grain to feed chickens till more adult size. Seems like everything is getting smaller. Chicken liver weight shortage, delay times in shipping and who comes first on supply routes. By local food law max shipping time is 8days for freshness after the 10th day it has to be frozen or dump. But you can't raise prices on liver cause to would reduce the local demands. My fried chicken site can go for a month before they get any livers in, then it is barely enough to feed the employees a serving. You only get 10lbs of fresh chicken livers, not really enough to sale to the public. The grocery stores are now selling very small packs of frozen chicken livers, with instructs on how to cook them with beef liver to spread the chicken flavor around the dinner dish.

[@PoppaYeti]

Best channel I’ve found in a long time

[@weltonbarbosa206]

you kinda nailed the point... "credits" is money, backed by storage energy (ready to use). So basic if you are away from the united planet federation planet, it's kind of useless... in practice, the economy work by having a UBI, and most of the things are pegged to it. You cant not make "more land" or "more/better" space. A starfleet officer having an apartament in downtown san fracisco , is a lot of credits paid in rental by starfleet. Chattot Picard is also very very expensive, you cant replicate good wine... you have to pay for it in equivalent amount of energy. But... the UBI is in is general, good enough that you can have a middle class (maybe lower middle class) standard of living. And it is so strictly regulated that most federations citizens don't even notice. Like Medical expenses, is a specific UBI for medical assistance, it worth a lot of credits... but if you have an incurable disease, you can't just "use all your credits" , basically you are blocked by the system eventually as simple as "there is no cure, currently". Same for food... do you want a airfryer/ fast food ? it's free, can eat as much as you want, eventually a medic or yours "access code" to the synthesizer will block you if you are doing a LOT of harm to yourself (may it be sugar, drugs, nicotine... whatever) , in normal society we are just "less" regulated. But you can easily jump to something else... specially if your food supply is controlled.

[@notsostealthmission5184]

I need that shirt / jacket with the Arasaka logo.

[@maarkaus48]

This was a great video. I will check out your other ones too. This is the sort of nerdy round table discussion my friends and I would have growing up. Good times.

[@modelermark172]

Very well researched and spoken . . . and interesting, (as all your video essays are.) Though this video essay is about the "Star Trek" economy, my mind went unbiddenly to a scene from S. M. Stirling's "Draka Trilogy" (I think this scene was in, "The Stone Dogs," but it's been a while,) where the economic realities of Draka Society were becoming a clear liability. Erich Von Shrakenberg was arguing with the Archon about the need for more 'specialization' among the Serf Class to make the controlled, Draka Economy more effective; noting that because the Domination of the Draka was an "Aristocratic Republic," every Citizen could, "do whatever they wanted," (so long as they did their Military Service,) without regard to what the overall society actually needed. If memory serves, Erich said that while the Race produced plenty of artists, writers, and even "scientists, in the strictest sense of the word;" they were lacking enough people to do the "routine skullwork" needed to keep a modern society running on a day-to-day basis. The Archon counterargued that this would lead to virtual 'rights' for the Serfs, who in her mind already had too many 'specializations' and even 'privileges' to begin with, and this would make them a threat to the Domination, and that essentially having surplus Serfs doing "bullshit jobs" was preferable. In the real world, at least one economic observer (I forget who) remarked that oil-rich countries like Saudi Arabia had become, "A Non-Socialist, Non-Workers' Paradise," where there was little actual meaningful work to be done, and far too many people to not do it, and that the majority of citizens were essentially being paid a stipend to, "not overthrow the monarchy." Throw in the high cash "burn rate" - especially when every Prince expects to live as well as their fathers - and it's doubtful that this "social contract" can go on indefinitely . . . . My Like is in the 1.1Ks

[@feralhistorian]

I remember that "routine skullwork" dialog quite clearly. I thought of it almost every day when I worked as draftsman, spending many hours working in AutoCAD but thinking about the structures of Draka society because drawing machine head fixture castings doesn't really require 100% mental attention after you've done a few. The oil-economy structure is an interesting beast. I forget who it was that said something along the lines of "100 years ago the Arabs were nomads in the desert, and 100 years from now they'll be nomads again" but it hits the core problem of building an entire national economy on revenue from a single export.

[@modelermark172]

@@feralhistorian I had an acquaintance who once taught - or tried to teach - electrical engineering at a Saudi University, but all the students wanted to discuss was Islam; something understandable, given that the Saudi Public School System grades K - 12 is administered by Salafist Sheiks. Eventually, he asked a student - who said he had a job waiting for him when he graduated, to manage an electrical plant, "If you don't learn from this course, than how will you know what to do when you start working?" The reply was something along the lines of, "When I'm plant manager, I'll select a qualified electrical engineer, either a Pakistani or a Palestinian, to do the actual work and report to me, while I'll be in my office contemplating the Koran and the Hadiths." I have no reason to doubt the veracity of this account, but I should note that this was pre-9/11. Somehow, I doubt that the House of Saud will be able to 'pay' everyone enough to, "not overthrow the monarchy," while the petroleum revenues are flowing, much less after they stop, either because they run-out, or the world shifts to a new, or more efficient source of energy. Interestingly, there is a line in S. M. Stirling's "The Peshawar Lancers" where a similar topic about "bullshit jobs" arises - but for now, no spoilers . . . . Again, thanks for all your research and analysis!

[@littleponygirl666]

That's pretty interesting take on the economics of Star Trek. Ever seen The Expanse? Would love to hear your take on that given that it's way more realistic. And meaning Earths economy in that setting. Majority of the planet apparently lives on some kind of basic income but it's not quite enough. That's the way of things because the key problem is that they don't have enough opportunities assuming because of automation so in other word, they don't have enough actual jobs. And this is the reason why some people migrate to Mars because they don't have any of these luxuries.

[@bucyrus5000]

A few things, discussing "jobs", working when one already has their basic needs met, many Capitalists/Hedonists would argue that if people have homes that can't be taken away, a guaranteed access to food and healthcare, people would not work, but, as we saw during the pandemic, while there were Hedonists who did nothing but drugs, games, and recreation, there were many (like me) who did community activism, self and home improvement. Now, you also touch on an unpopular (among Capitalist Economists) fact, that income/wealth equality lowers crime rates and inflation, and makes society more productive. In the future where 3D printing to replicators moves the means of production to every community and household, the idea of socialism or communism as a political choice, along with fears of despotism or authoritarianism, just disappear. The presence of the technology creates a natural state that Marx might consider his communist ideal, but the fact that control is in the hands of the people reduces the power imbalances that required the police state that protected the minority that controlled the supply of stuff.

[@ssyn6626]

Really neat ideas, wish I had teacher like this guy.

[@______IV]

I always hear that when there’s two extremes (like the big government vs. laissez-faire models our two political parties have been fighting to implement for decades in the U.S.), the truth is somewhere in the middle. The middle ground between two dysfunctional models is rarely a good solution though. Your perspective on the economy is refreshing, nuanced, and seems to account for some important facts about human nature that our politicians and economic gurus ignore when designing their models. So refreshing.

[@dansmith1661]

You get terrible butt blisters finding the truth in the middle.

[@______IV]

@ : TERRIBLE butt blisters.😆

[@Mak10z]

"with out a job people will be depressed and destructive" /me sits at his job depressed and frustrated I think they got it backwards.. free me up to do what I'd like to do. hell, give me resources to go plant trees and shit.

[@GrimFaceHunter]

Get fired, the feeling of not having to get up early The next day is amazing. Not so much when your savings start to run out.

[@thedragondemands5186]

I haven’t had a paying job in five years because of the pandemic and its aftermath - and I feel pretty god damned Radicalized now

[@Hugebull]

You wrote down the cause. "me sits at his job". We were never meant for the modern office job. It is an extremely recent invention. We are as caged animals. Sure, life is a lot more comfortable, but we have lost everything that made us human in the process. You are not depressed because you have to work. You are depressed because you do not have the job that us humans have had for thousands of years. We were meant for having a small plot of land. The husband doing the heavy lifting half of the labor, the wife doing the other half. Your son would waddle after you as soon as he could, and your daughters would be around mom throughout the day. Every meal would be shared. And whenever you stopped to work, standing up the stretch your back, you would look straight at your wife doing something around the home. When the United States became a country, the largest city in the entire Republic had less than 50 thousand people. THAT was the big city. You are living an unnatural life. You're not depressed. You're sane.

[@Akrafena]

@@Hugebull I see a Neo-Agrarian

[@Hugebull]

@@Akrafena I'd be Amish if I had the strength and will to go through with it.

[@crazymcgee3604]

DS9 makes reference of industrial - scale replicators and how their usage is restricted as they can build a fusion reactor just as easily as a main water pipe. Something the size of a starship or space station would obviously have to make use of such devices but it is implied that building ISRs is resource- and labour-intensive so their deployment is tightly controlled.

[@hkmorhsi]

Oh finally some high quality high iq content. KZbin has been shit for the last decade, you are like one of those guys from back in the day.

[@liammackenzie9283]

Have you ever read the Honor Harrington novels? They're a great read in general, but I'd love to hear your thoughts on the People's Republic of Haven. Serving as the bad guys for the first half of the series, they're a society based on UBI gone wrong- having created an entire class of "Dolists" entirely dependent on the basic living stipend and constantly demanding more- with a practically dead economy , the legislative class's only option is a constant stream of "Wars of liberation" as the Republic overwhelms smaller stellar nations to feed the masses.

[@feralhistorian]

I've been meaning to read those for years. And that sounds like something I really need to get to soon.

[@NatorGreen7000]

I wrote a fan animation that showed a greedy federation secretly monetarily profiting off of labor done by federation citizens to live out lavish life styles but I cancelled the project to make my own sci fi series instead. Now I'm working on my second series.

[@Ves93]

Although it's a bit slow, I'm very glad to see that your channel is steadily growing. Now, about my video request I made a while back... Aren't you going to look into making a video about the 90's movie 'Prayer of the Rollerboys'? The movie is with Corey Haim, and I think it is very, very underrated. Given the content of your channel, I think you'd have an amazing time dissecting it and making a video about it.

[@feralhistorian]

I finally watched 'Prayer of the Rollerboys' about a month ago, thanks for the recommendation. I'm definitely going to talk about it, probably in relation to a couple other things sharing similar themes. There's a lot of ground to cover to really get it right. I work slow sometimes, but eventually it all gets done.

[@Ves93]

@@feralhistorian Damn, thanks man. I actually thought you had decided NOT to go ahead with. I'm grateful that you have decided to do a video on it! I'll keep an eye out!

[@Plaprad]

There's one scene that I bring up anytime someone say there is no money in Star Trek. Star Trek II has the scene with Kirk, Spock, and Bones watching the proposal for the Genesis Device. In that proposal, Dr. Marcus specifically states she is seeking "Funding" from the Federation. Not energy, supply, materials, workers, or anything like that. She need's funds. So there is some form of finance in the Federation.

[@dansmith1661]

Back then they used currency. The only time they used currency during TNG is with dealing with aliens who still use currency.

[@A2ATemp]

Keep up the good work! Love all your sci-fi commentary and videos. Maybe start a selling merch 👍

[@VanCamelCat]

Dayum. What a great video 👌

[@mikebell2112]

I didn't know Ron Howard was so smart.

[@Charlie-Em]

Your channel is so good.

[@Fuacatah]

This was a really fascinating video.

[@NankitaBR]

Leaving my comments to help with the algorithm 😊

[@bpora01]

The first example in fiction I can think of was "beyond this horizon" by heinlein in the 40s. The central point was a society where mechanization created an economic surplus that had to be spent with make work projects. Now discuss fallout bottle caps

[@PhoenyxAshe]

Whenever someone brings up the idea that "UBI will create hordes of people just sitting on their butts" I always bring up the Mincome Project that ran in Manitoba in the '70s. It was, from what I've been able to determine (which means I may well be wrong) the longest running UBI experiment to date - even after being cut short halfway through. During those five years, most of those who had started the project employed remained employed, with two notable exceptions: first time mothers, and high school students. There was in turn a higher turn-out of high school graduates since they didn't have to quit school to help support the family, and also a higher number seeking advanced education, both college and trade schools. There's a lot more data, and it's a fascinating read - I just wish I could find more of it available.

[@theloweffortchannel7211]

A population retaining recent cultural mores and expectations prove nothing regarding your point

[@fromthefire4176]

⁠​⁠@@theloweffortchannel7211I doubt that. Psychologically we inherently need and seek out purpose by nature, few people actually want to sit around all day, and there are too many people stuck doing what they have to instead of what they’re capable of, more than there are people who struggle to find purpose. If you struggle in life even with basic income, you almost certainly already need help now, psych or addiction services, job retraining, etc. Besides the few tests and discussions nobody on earth has implemented a system like ubi in the free modern west, it’s absurd to dismiss research and assume significant negative psychological changes over time, or to make comparisons to extremist third world command economies. Half of the entire idea of experimentation is to see if failures occur, where, why, how.

[@Clockwork0nions]

more recent UBI experiments (also in Canada) have found the opposite: with the new money filling the void in their lives people often worked less than part time some even grouped together so no one would have to work at all.

[@ideologybot4592]

that experiment went four years. it couldn't mean less to long-term behavioral changes if it was trying to be irrelevant.

[@Rorr59]

I have tried to reason out how they could function as a society without money myself, but all I ever came up with was a headache, guess I'll never be an economist. Thanks for helping me visualize it.

[@henryburby6077]

Star Trek Picard is best used as you are using it here: as a large supply of flashy, silent clips.

[@joehaigh7529]

I'm having difficulty understanding how this energy-based economy works in the star trek universe. Anything or anybody that produces something has value.That value has a price that determines its value. The more valuable the more expensive the price gets. If the energy is so abundant and is not scarce, how is its price not astronomical? This is a great video, I'm enjoying it immensely but I would love somebody to clarify this for me. Thank You and keep up the great work! 😄👍

[@matthiuskoenig3378]

Supply and demand. No matter how useful something is if it's easy to get it's cheap. See soil. Extemely useful and extremely rare. But because it's easy to get it's so cheap we say cheap as dirt.

[@albionicamerican8806]

Yeah, it's funny that people who have been living off of inherited wealth for generations seem to handle their work-free income just fine. The science fiction writer Larry Niven, for example, grew up as a trust-fund kid in a wealthy oil family. He's in his 80's now, but he probably still derives part of his income from family wealth held in trusts.

[@rottenmeat5934]

The loss of purpose as an argument against UBI fails as we see more jobs fail to give purpose. What we’ve seen is people paid both to do nothing and stop people from doing anything. It’s just a moral failing, the technical part is doing just fine. What we need is people free enough to clean their environment.

[@wmpratt2010]

You look up Calhoun's Mouse Utopia experiments.

[@ideologybot4592]

I don't think anyone in this comments section knows what's meant when they talk about purpose. Having to show up so you get income for food is purpose. It's more intense when there are other people relying on you, so while a single person can get nihilistic working to live, a person with loved ones has a better chance of being appreciated for what they do, even if it's just busywork. A meaningful life is a life where you're needed, with at least the level of engagement to wake up and interact with people on a schedule. A society filled with children getting an allowance isn't that.

[@temmy9]

What you are describing is akin to social credit economics, which increases the money supply via a national dividend backed by production

[@rottenmeat5934]

MMT fails because money isn’t primarily used to acquire goods. It’s used to settle disputes. It has a moral dimension that matters almost as much as the exchange of goods. As costs escalate, the economy fails as people can’t save anymore. Not that they were saving anyway, but now it’s not because of vice. And the people who do have money still need to spend it, just not on the people who do the actual work. So the lower status you are, the more virtuous you need to be, and there’s an ever escalating scale of virtue to adhere to. But the higher status people will never have any real virtue no matter how much they spend. The money isn’t being used to settle disputes anymore, it’s being used to command virtue.

[@TheJofurr]

Did I just get a shout out? But I'm not *that* confused, at least not about economics. There's a reason this has consistently been one of my favorite channels since I found it. That, and it's not like I don't take on traits of, say, Stirner when talking to Marxists myself... Honestly, I'm just tickled to see some commentary beyond "it's all about the money!" The sooner people realize that money is just a coercive means to a different end, the better. Hopefully this one doesn't get eaten by KZbin.

[@feralhistorian]

It's a collective shout out equally distributed amongst the Marxist commenters.

[@TheJofurr]

@@feralhistorian See? That's fun!

[@grammapolice]

Since there were no replicators in TOS, the replicator as a solve for post capitalism falls apart. Also, the structure described as how the federation allocates resources is quite literally a planned economy. It’s closer to a Bellamy perceived planned economy.

[@BoliceOccifer]

You could have minting tied to production, place that money into a pool that is drawn from at a rate equal to: current annual production capacity + (estimated production capacity for next year * 0.75) That way you would have stability. You stockpile cash in good years and in the long run you will have excess.

[@GordonWrigley]

It seems like the end game for Startrek would be The Culture

[@KAPTAINmORGANnWo4eva]

The concept, much like world peace, stumbles at the Prisoner's Dilemma stage of evaluation because in this day and age where there's billions in the -human trafficking- migrant facilitation industry, the first wealthy country to try this will be inundated with so many economic migrants that it would make the EU in 2015 look like East Germany in 1950. People are already showing up by the thousands every day for the chance at the current standard of US social services, now imagine how intense that flood would get if they were 3x as valuable and much more flexible.

[@ObscureDraws]

Well. Working a job gives structure. You have to be somewhere at a time. If you have a job, days have meaning. Wednesday is only Wednesday and Friday is only Friday, if you work. What is even time if your don't work? What does 8 AM even mean? Maybe nothing.

[@shanelyon414]

An excellent compilation of theories! If energy is especially the source of all productivity and enough energy can be produced to supply everyone’s basic needs then this is a balanced society as long as energy is distributed this way. I can not help but observe that even though our society is not energy but monetary based, there is certainly enough in advanced societies for everyone but obviously the distribution system is flawed……… So, in our non Star Trek world, we have nations where the resources (energy) is abundant enough for everyone, it’s just that our distribution system is unbalanced? Honestly, incomes in the millions and above could be seen as an unproductive allocation of resources. In past generations this disparity in incomes was not as wide and society was more productive and fair overall I believe. Lots to think about but honestly our society is in trouble. Common sense is not very common anymore, people prefer not to think for themselves and prefer excuses rather than hard solutions. England proved this with Brexit I believe and now reap what they have sown.

[@jaslarja]

Please do more videos on Star treks society 🙏🏼

[@adampender3685]

Energy use was monitored in TNG as well providing more proof that energy is the currency in Star Trek. Replicators would need to be huge to replicate star ships and be able to replicate complex systems over a large area.

[@paulanerruhrpott6188]

I was never a fan of the moneyless society aspect of the show that clearly was not present in TOS and was an invention after Gene Roddenberry hang out too much with wacko, super left wing students. In my headcanon replicators only exist on Starships, not on Earth. Growing food on Starships would not be possible, otherwise you would have to build Death Star like spaceships with a huge biosphere to grow food. Like Babylon 5 with that huge garden inside. Thats why we have replicators on Starships because its more efficient. But replicators on Earth would consume too much Energy which would not be cost effective. Thats why the economy on earth in my headcanon does not much differ from todays economy. Thats why Siskos and Picard fathers are in the groceries business. Siskos dad with his Restaurant where you still have to peel potatoes, or Picards vineyard because food and beverages still have to be produced, and not magically made up by thin air. Also no Transporters on Earth because of the same reason. And then Star Trek Picard came with its increased effects budget and destroyed my headcanon because you saw that they use the Transporter or replicator on Earth for the most ordinary things. I Did not like that. Until Star Trek Picard the ordinary people on earth also seemed to resent Starfleet as a posh, out of touch with reality institution like Picards brother or Harry Mudd. Like its an elite club where you indeed not need money anymore because you discover the mysteries of the Universe while the ordinary people still have regular ordinary lives. And those who say that you almost never see money on the show? Well, thats normal within the military. When i was a conscript in the german army in 2004 i never needed money except on weekends when i left the barracks because the army provided for everything. Think about if you are stuck on a spaceship for months or even years, so you also never would need money there.

[@feralhistorian]

Your point about a split between Starfleet and the rest of the Federation economy has got me thinking along a tangent now . . . Have to chew on this some.

[@GrimFaceHunter]

Replicators requiring too much energy might even exclude them from starships. It might make the most sense to have them as a part of Dyson spheres. Socio-economic reason for ordinary people resenting starfleet might be in fabricators energy inefficiency.

[@Alte.Kameraden]

I think he did this because that was the nerd audience of the time. Intelligentsia have had a long history of embracing the red banner so much so entire narratives of history are twisted by them.

[@Josep_Hernandez_Lujan]

Technocracy Inc. had the idea of energy accounting as currency. The difference was you could't accumulated these credits. It wasn't very popular outside California and only in certain circles. Roddenberry was probably aware of it.

[@wambutu7679]

Interesting video. Thanks.

[@schmelzberger3858]

Some very interesting insights

[@evan448]

the real issue with the idea of the post scarcity economy, is getting there requires a falling price level economy. but no established interest likes to see the value of the thing they own or produce go down. take housing - if we want to make housing super cheap and easily affordable everyone who owns a house already would have what they own devalued. so of course that entire segment will oppose your mass house building plan. and not for totally irrational reasons they do afterall have mortgages based on what their home is worth now.

[@090giver090]

That is actually a good illustration of problems of commodification and investmentalisatioin of real estate economy.

[@CIS-m8s]

If psychology isn't considered a science. And ine where to suggest economics is based in psychology, in my opinion no system is correct.

[@confidentcontractor]

As a professional automator, there are so many things that need automating

[@adamcollazo8228]

For years I've wondered how extensive replicated food was among civilians? As mentioned in the video Robert Picard owned the Picard family winery and the winery was huge. This strongly suggests that there was a large market for real wine. Also, Sisko's father owned a Creole restaurant in New Orleans for decades. This restaurant wouldn't exist if there wasn't a large customer base eating there. But this means that Sisko's dad needs to get his fresh food and supplies from somewhere. Someone has to grow fruits and vegetables. Do they still eat real beef, chicken, and fish in the 23rd-24th century?

[@Rocketsong]

In at least one episode of Next Gen, O'Brian tells Kiko that his mom did indeed cook real meat.

[@feralhistorian]

I have wondered if replicated food is more like MREs, something common in military contexts but never eaten by most people, or if it's more equivalent to highly processed food that people eat all the time and fresh "real" food is a more upscale niche thing. If the latter, restaurants like Cisco's would be as much about the experience as the food, a culinary art sort of thing with constantly shifting menu based on whatever the chef wanted to prepare.

[@adamcollazo8228]

@@feralhistorian I thought about the MRE comparison as well. With Sisko s dad it's never made clear if he get paid for the meals he serves. Another thing that is not clearly obvious is this idea about how everyone "works" for the betterment of all of society. Does this apply just to Earth or the entire Federation? In TNG era there are ~180 member worlds in the Federation (Troi mentioned this to Mark Twain). It seems impossible to believe that the cultures of 180 worlds could agree on one economic system.

[@garrenosborne9623]

Ok so the genuine exploration of history & story added with free speculative mind or two was always going produce some interesting concepts ..maybe even useful ones. Im going to be taking seriously & discussing it in the Rebel Economists group chat the implications of your background radiation "UBIC". Something or somethings different are / will be needed as the meta crisis collateral damages kick into nation state apparatus & regional chaos erupts.

[@thehistorian1232]

The other marxists in the comments are not confused! This is really good stuff and gave me (never a star trek fan) much to think about. The reference to “state communism” is interesting and telling. After watching this video, I think I’d describe (to myself) your views as being something like Yugoslavia with anarchist tendencies, or a more market-focused POUM of the Spanish Civil War. Or maybe you’re the last real libertarian, who understands that freeing people from tyranny also includes the tyranny of the markets. Either way, another hit. Your reference to the commodities-basket backed currency interests me; I’ve noticed it crop up in other videos of yours. Where does it come from? Where can I read more about it?

[@ideologybot4592]

We currently calculate inflation using a commodities basket, put together by the BLS. As a currency itself, the thought could be novel but it sounds like the basket of currencies the IMF developed for international trade, called SDR's. It's made up of the currencies of other countries and is in use now. FYI I'm the most brutal of capitalists because I studied the Soviet economy in my college days, and there is a wealth of data now available on Yugoslavian economic structure. I suggest you dig in before you go tagging innocent people with that history, it was pragmatic but not in a humanistic way. In any case, good luck in your efforts tilting at the social inequality windmills.

[@thehistorian1232]

@@ideologybot4592 You’re a capitalist because you studied communist economics, I’m a socialist because I’ve studied capitalist economics. I guess that’s the way it goes.

[@ideologybot4592]

@@thehistorian1232 oh I've studied both, and I have degrees and an unromantic view of the human species to prove it.

[@thehistorian1232]

@@ideologybot4592 I have great affection for the human race and the little planet on which we live. Maybe that’s my fatal flaw. It certainly led me to the politics I have today

[@seanbrazell7095]

The difference between jobs and occupations.

[@johnmoore8599]

You definitely make people think. The problem with economics is that most economists don't know how the real economy works. You may be closer to the truth than you know. I think the problem with automation is that the wealthy are the first to take advantage of it, therefore the productivity gains go to them. I'm not sure where government contracts and subsidies come in since I'm seeing Musk and Bezos going after government contracts despite being uberwealthy. State contracts must be like a universal basic income for millionaires and billionaires.

[@marcusmoonstein242]

We'll have something that functions basically as a replicator within the next few years. They're called AI robots. Just as a replicator produces whatever you ask it to, a system of AI controlled robots will be able to produce whatever you want as well. The robots won't have the cool sound effects or flashy lights of a replicator, but it's effectively the same thing economically. The only limitations on the system would be the available energy and raw materials, just as for the replicator. The future will be abundant, but scarcity will always exist. Think of salt as an example. Salt was once so valuable it was used as money, but today it's abundant and incredibly cheap - but it still has a price, just a very low one. This is what all goods will be like in the future, which means that there's still a place for money and a price mechanism

[@090giver090]

Everything has a price. But transactional price of energy for StarTrek civilization (that clearly at least one step higher than us on Kardashev ladder) is as low as price of salt today. You don't often think how much salt you put in your dish pricewise and don't worry wether you have enough salt to get by till the next salary, do you? 😉

[@marcusmoonstein242]

@@090giver090 Precisely. I've heard some commentators worry that some essential goods will become so cheap that businesses won't be able to make a profit from selling them. This would then force the government to step in to supply those goods. This will never happen. As salt has shown us, businesses are still quite capable of operating with very low prices as long as the price isn't zero.

[@lmpure_4542]

8:27 Believe it or not, a boss I have made this argument but only for an ornery old man at my work. He’s a security guard and he’s basically like a weaker Mike from Breaking Bad and more racist.

[@Reg_The_Galah]

racism is wrong

[@davedsilva]

Excellent. Thank you. Quantum science is steadily unlocking Trek tech, like the flip phone. Partial use of Trek tech created Microsoft and Apple tech. The Trek energy economy can manifest through quantum fusion, which exists.

[@texjlh]

Great video

[@williamoverton7775]

I loved OSSTFBP. it's why you exist.

[@PoyoPoyo-qd3ss]

I'd like to see this guy cover Soldier(1998) with Kurt Russell.

[@feralhistorian]

Definitely an underrated film.

[@PoyoPoyo-qd3ss]

@feralhistorian oh for sure. It's like Equilibrium in that it boggles the mind how it slipped through the cracks.

[@M33f3r]

Austrian painter man described and implemented exactly this approach. Which is part of why it took the entire rest of the world combined to destroy them.

[@Hugebull]

The reason it took the world to stop him was because the others had crippled themselves, and then sat and did nothing for 10 years. It has very little to do with the strength of Germany, the Austrian, or the system imposed. It had everything to do with the lack of action by the others. Do you know why Japan became one of the most powerful naval powers? Because the Americans and the British sunk their navies after the First World War. All of a sudden the Japanese found themselves among the big-boys having done nothing. They were more surprised by this fact than anybody else. In 1934, the French could have marched into Germany and arrested The Austrian alone and with ease. But they, alongside everybody else, refused to enforce the international treaty forced upon Germany. Giving Germany the green light to do whatever they wanted, as the international community had made it clear that they were not going to enforce anything. The reason the Blitz on England had the chance to happen, was because the British absolutely refused to build an actual Air Force. Winston Churchill tried and tried and tried some more to get them to actually have some planes built, but the Government and Parliament dragged their feet for close to a decade. If I remember correctly, it took roughly 4 years to retool the economy for war to produce infantry weapons and ammunition. This the Germans started a couple years before the British, which meant that the Germans had a solid advantage right at the beginning of the fighting. But again, the only reason this was allowed to happen, was because British, France, and America, had sat on the sideline and completely ignored reality for almost 10 years. Winston Churchill, in his Second World War book series, puts no blame on Germany for the Second World War. He pins the entire blame on the inaction and nonsensical actions made by France, Britain, and the isolation of America. Britain having a treaty with Czechoslovakia, which the British completely ignored. And simply allowed Germany to gobble up the entire country, which crippled Britain's diplomatic standing globally. To then go and defend Poland, after Poland had become a belligerent power, who had gleefully joined in with the partition of Czechoslovakia. Had the Americans and the British not sunk their navies after WW1, any sort of war in the Pacific would have been impossible and unthinkable, as the Japanese would have been overwhelmingly inferior. Had the French arrested The Austrian when they started breaking their international treaties, then there would have been no great war. There is a reason why Winston Churchill, talking to FDR, wanted to name the war "The Unnecessary War." Although, the French can never be trusted, had the British simply kept an eye on things and built a basic Air Force, the Germans would have been heavily outmatched in the air from the start. The history of the Second World War is NOT the history of German and Japanese strength. It is the history of absolute stupidity on the part of Britain, France, the United States, and the Soviet Union.

[@boobah5643]

@@Hugebull You left off that the Germans weren't _really_ equipped for war at the time they started things; most of their tanks had been designed as training vehicles, their navy was woefully inadequate, and even their air force wasn't where they wanted it to be. But their economy was already starting to fail under the costs of rearmament and their options were to either give up on doing anything for another generation or loot their neighbors to keep things going. You've also ignored why the US and (especially) the British scaled back on their navies: they were ruinously expensive... and the treaty system they set up kept both navies larger than anyone else by an unassailable margin. Let's be clear: the British basically said, this is the biggest navy we can afford, convinced the Americans to no more than match it, and then they both forced everyone else to make do with significantly less.

[@matthiuskoenig3378]

The problem with building an airforce early is highlighted with the Soviets. You just end up with a large number of obsolete planes which are effectively expensive death traps for expensive personal.

[@dansmith1661]

The rest of the world destroyed itself, hence the Great Depression, and among the varied ways of recovering those problems, Austrian Painter Man tried one that worked out very well, having a decade ago had the cost of bread cost a billion Marks. Problems were removed and the bankers in response organized a massive war that destroyed a good thing and gave us a decades long Cold War with nukes.

[@killcat1971]

Even the idea of an energy economy doesn't work at the tech level in question, they could simply harvest energy from stars or the magnetic fields of gas giants, my assumption is that replicators have a maximum size that they can function at.

[@j.c.vanhandel7907]

I have another book recommendation I would be interested in hearing your take on; Theodore Judson's Fitzpatrick's War. It reminds me slightly of the Draka series.

[@djolds1]

Feral Economic Theory. I am intrigued. The inevitable self-destruction of any resources-utopian society, as implied by the mouse utopia experiment, seemed to rule out post-scarcity. However, mouse utopia has recently been debunked via the replication crisis.

[@AlexS-zr2nb]

Didn't the scientist that ran mouse utopia run the experiment multiple times and got the same result?

[@XSilver_WaterX]

Humanity is completely creative sterile after giving birth to the tulpa-lifeforms being Vulcan, Klingon, Cardasssians etc. Any sane person in that universe would literally have to manage the universe as a new-born god where the primordial powers like entropy still exist?

[@br8745]

​@AlexS-zr2nb Possibly, but thats exactly the problem, nobody else has run it and gotten the same result.

[@Clockwork0nions]

Mouse Utopia has been ran dozens of teams, by different teams of researchers, and has the same result every time. How does it fall into the Replication Crisis?

[@boobah5643]

@@Clockwork0nions No, the _one dude_ who wrote the paper claims to have gotten the same results every time he's run it. Everybody else who's tried the methods his paper details don't get that result. Dude either made up his results because he thought it an important message (or snazzy result; 'cool paper, bro' is enough motivation, really,) he's avoided documenting something he does because it would screw with his intended message, or he's simply failed to properly document the experiment.

[@Aldornas]

Comments for the KZbin god. Engagement for the algorithm.

[@GeoFry3]

Even if you get the equivalent to $10 million. You still couldn't go out and buy a starship. The systems, expertise, materials, engineering, logictics, etc. would not be available to the average citizen. You couldn't hire a crew, a captain, nor rent a dry dock. Most people would just not be interested. You would need an organization to lure people to your cause.

[@curiobill]

You are my kinda nerd! Carry on!!!

[@ChairmanKam]

9:35 Problem is we are neurologically designed for the stress of finding survival, we do go crazy, loser, and evil without challenge. And let's call a spade a spade, productivity is clearly NOT going up.