Star Trek's Money-less Utopia is Bull$%!&

#StarTrek #Utopia
Conceivably, the Federation's economy works without money. I don't buy it.
We can have the "Is the Federation Communist" discussion later. Right now, they need to show me the money.
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[@lewi7275]

Once you create a food replicator and a fabric replicator and allows you to basically make anything you don’t need an economic system that was one of the points of the utopia that Roddenberry saw in his vision

[@Roark86]

And it’s nonsense. Economics always exists. Economics is ultimately merely a measure of trade offs. Is it more worth my time to do X instead of Y? Is it more worth my time and effort to work at A instead of B? Would it be better for me to do B before A? What are the costs of that decision? What are the tradeoffs? Economics isn’t merely a measure of the costs of physical goods. There’s far more to life than consuming food and wearing clothes. There are experiences, relationships, travel, etc. And since it’s physically impossible for everybody to do the exact same thing in the exact same place at the exact same time, there needs to be a means by which people can offer extra compensation to others to do what they want to do know instead of somebody else taking that place. There needs to be a way for a person to be compensated for putting off something they’d like now to have a better experience later. All the food and fabric replicators in the universe don’t change that basic aspect of existence. It’s nonsense from probably smart, creative writers on an otherwise enjoyable show who haven’t bothered to try to truly understand the logical conclusions of their economic assertions. And it’s understandable. They’re not economists. It’s not their field of expertise. And on some level, their personal/political sensibilities probably desperately wish for such a concept to be reality.

[@st.johnthephilosopher1087]

This guy gets it.

[@gammaechofoundationproductions]

St. John, you hit it right on the nail! 👍🏻 You are correct in your assessment about the one non-renewable finite resource that is the ultimate form of scarcity: time. Even with replicators where people will have their basic needs met with food, clothing, and shelter, that does not mean money will disappear, quite the contrary, it is here to stay. For instance, let's say that everybody's needs are met with these replicators and after some wear-and-tear, they will inevitably break down. When that happens, somebody has to fix it, so you call the repair personnel to come fix it and then pay him or her for their services. We need money in order to live and provide for our families and while capitalism may have it's faults, it is still far better than socialism and communism. Perhaps in the future there will be a new monetary system that will replace capitalism but for now, it's the best we have. Also, it is true that Star Trek has explored utopia in other alien civilizations, only to find something ugly underneath on every occasion. Your quote, "The very word 'utopia' basically means 'A place that doesn't really exist', but for all the times Star Trek writers spent exploring the inherent faults of other utopias, they always went out of their way to cover up the flaws of their own". Well said, bravo! 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻 I look forward to seeing more of your videos! You just earned a new subscriber and friend! 🙂

[@st.johnthephilosopher1087]

Thanks so much! I'm glad you could see where I was coming from. As silly as a movie it was, In Time with Justin Timberlake and Amanda Seyfried actually had an interesting exploration of time as currency. Maybe I'll do a reaction or video essay about it in the future.

[@lewi7275]

There’s also the fact in the 23rd and 24th century since you have a fabric left replicator as Captain Kirk said in one of the episodes to one of the aliens, he said we can we can synthesize with our replicators all the precious metals we want so see in the federation works by bartering goods, but they can generate all the gold silver platinum Gold press, Latin, and any precious jewels, like rubies and emeralds, sapphires and diamonds so if people won currency, nothing beats gold, silver, and precious metals or joules per currency

[@seandodd6925]

This video should be called "Dismantling star trek with an elegant application of econ 101"

[@greggweber9967]

10:40 Currency is also easier to tax. All you need to do is to force people to have it and then you can punish them if they don't give some back for you to spend.

[@seandodd6925]

Wow love the thorough analysis!

[@paulminshall8793]

The way I see it, people in this universe choose a vocation which essentially provides them with accommodation, free food, drink and energy. Different jobs would provide different quality of life, so that would be the driver for people to work. Those who don't work would still get fed, but at a lower quality level. Star Fleet is a form of indenture which pays for the benefits it provides, even if no money exchanges hands.

[@st.johnthephilosopher1087]

It's a nice thought. But nothing is free. Somebody has to maintain the replicators. Someone has to maintain the power grid. And they're not going to do it out of the goodness of their hearts.

[@johnwalsh7256]

It's all about energy.

[@greggweber9967]

7:11 IMHO the problem of waste energy, heat will come up in a post scarcity Earth.

[@Pwnhenge1997]

Scarcity = opportunity for profit If a civilization surpasses hunger, thirst, disease, overpopulation and pollution, then all that will be left would be to solely monetize superficial scarcity like fashion, entertainment, fast cars, new phones, etc. A new hierarchy would be built around who possesses the most superficial value. AKA: High School The people at the top want to remain on top. They'll get their money one way or the other.

[@greggweber9967]

The closest I can see is a modern version of the City of Enoch. What would that be like? IMHO it would be voluntary and not like Communism.

[@jimparsons6803]

Sort of true, maybe? If you have a widget that will make you food, you've cut out a ot of the middlemen, in a manner of speaking. All y' need now is coupious numbers of eager and more than capable O'Briens or Scottys. ...and parts, you will likely need a lot of repair parts, and folks, like O'Brien or Scottys, to fabricate those parts. Hmm, more complex than you thought? From a particular point of view, something like the above has already happened, starting in the 1920s and 1930s with the advent of Bakelite, cellophane, nitrocellulose (movie stock). and nylon. Plastics. So you don't need parts made from wood, metal, leather, or stone, as strange as that sounds. And we seen how that turned out. Sort of humorous in a way.

[@greggweber9967]

8:56 Would Planned Obsolescence go away in favor of building for quality and durability? That would affect the rate of progress in inventing new and improved things.

[@MakeitSo23]

1. You dont need to work if there is replicator. The reason we work is to get money to buy food and other stuff. 2. If we get replicators then everyone can get a replicated replicator, so no economy needed and no, the rich won't be the only ones to get their hands on it. Further, the energy requirement that you say is true, but if you understood the function of replicator, you would know that it creates stuff by converting energy into matter and as we know energy and matter are interchangeable, ie. from Einstein E=mc2, you can have infinite energy because you can convert sand from the beach into food etc. Waste can also be used to both power and produce new stuff. 3. Time you spend is a resource yes, but the concept of working to make humanity (or aliens) better is still valid. People can spend their lives on the beach because they do not need to work, sure why not. You still need however need technicians to fix things, teachers to teach kids and police to to keep people safe. I would surmise that most people would not want to stay unproductive for any length of time and would join a force such as teachers or police force or poetry society. We probably will not need police because there is likly no need for crime. So the question really becomes do I spend 8 hours a day working as a teacher or technician and have little time for family? The balance I believe will be reached where some will work only 1 hour a day while others 10 hours if they choose.

[@russellharrell2747]

Ignoring this guys obvious elementary understanding of economics (he’s at least more knowledgeable than most YTers) I’d say he’s misrepresenting replicator technology. There’s a clear line of advancement from yesterday’s manufacturing techniques to todays 3D printers to the food synthesizers of the 22nd and 23rd centuries to the seemingly magical replicators in the 24th century. Each iteration we are seeing the results of a breakthrough that probably came with a lot of research and hard work. The final breakthrough to create the replicator would have been something we can’t conceive of today but must have been the equivalent of ‘cold fusion’ for transmuting matter and matter/energy interactions, bringing the energy costs down considerably from the currently understood E=mc^2. There’s also the consideration that replicators are also transporters linked to reservoirs of matter in an unknown state, which is a far cry from ‘making something out of nothing’.

[@russellharrell2747]

There’s also the focus of star trek’s technology shown to us being focused on supporting space exploration with little seen of ‘day to day’ civilian life. Life in 24th century New Orleans is certainly different from life aboard a starship or space station. We’ve glimpsed that yes there are minerals and other resources in the federation that logically would lead to scarcity if demand outstripped supply, but this also doesn’t take into account that 23rd and 24th century earth and humanity are indeed fundamentally different than 20th and 21st century humans, despite Q putting us on trial for the contrary. Federation humans aren’t motivated by profit, instead making the conscious choice to serve humanity, knowing that they themselves will be served in return. It’s the difference between expecting the worst of human nature (greed, selfishness) to cause markets to grow and thrive and encouraging the best of human nature to nurture and support all. After a devastating nuclear world war and first contact with ETs I can understand why humanity would forever leave behind the capitalist lifestyle that lead to a global nightmare in favor of embracing all of humanity as one in cooperation and fellowship.