Star Trek The Next Generation Ruminations S2E16: Q-Who

[@paulscott2037]

So it occurs to me that the reason why the Borg acted the way they did in this episode can in fact be explained entirely by what you said about them being curious about how the Enterprise just vanished if they didn't know about Q. The Enterprise appears in System J-25 and is picked up by the Borg Cube on their sensors. The Borg go "Huh, that's funny. That ship wasn't there a minute ago." they scan it, and if we keep in mind they had assimilated humans before, both the Hansons and probably humans from the destroyed neutral zone outposts and maybe some more over the years they'd just go "Oh it's a Federation ship. Mostly harmless..." But that doesn't explain how it seemingly just popped into existence. So they come over and scan the Enterprise and are still more or less just thinking "Still not detecting anything interesting... let's send a drone over see what their engine core looks like." the drone beams over and is like "nope... normal matter / anti-matter warp drive... let's check their computers..." that is of course the point when Worf shoots it. Now the Borg don't discover anything they didn't already know from that encounter but at the same time they're still wondering how in the hell the Enterprise just appeared. So they take the encounter cautiously. They analyse the data they gathered. Considered all possibilities of how the Enterprise can defend itself. They still don't know HOW the Enterprise just showed up but they want to know and they don't really consider humans worth their time otherwise. Remember how the Borg Queen described humans in Dark Frontier entirely mediocre as drones go. At this point they are only curious about the Enterprise and finally they decide to take them by force. Q must have known that is the reason why they are after the Enterprise. That's why he describes them as being only interested in the ship. And Guinan states she wasn't there for the actual invasion of her world so she possibly doesn't even know about assimilation. Maybe it was just a rumour among her people so she doesn't feel it fit to report. When Q knocks them back into the Federation space the same occurs as you stated. They are curious about how they got to and from so they moved up the time table to when humanity would otherwise be assimilated. They even decide that if humanity is actually that advanced then maybe they should consider having a assimilated drone that could serve as a representative... The Captain of that ship will do nicely. And he'd be sure to know how his ship was able to get that far out.... "Hello Locutus. Do you mind telling us how... Oh... Ohhhhhh that explains everything... So why is the Omnipotent race so interested in you?... Well while we're here we'll assimilate your race anyway.".

[@mapleicecream4819]

Awesome points! A very neat explanation. This has now been promoted to my personal head-canon.

[@Ozzy_2014]

Paul Scott ok read Star trek Destiny trilogy. The 1st encounter with humanity involves the Enterprise era and also time travel so the 1st encounter is many hundreds of years ago.

[@paulscott2037]

Meh. I prefer my version. Besides it's very unclear what the Enterprise encounter actually accomplished for the Borg.

[@shauntempley9757]

@@Ozzy_2014 That trilogy ignores the very Enterprise episode where Zephram hints at the events in First Contact. Because the Borg in that episode are due to remnants of the attempt to assimilate the planet after the Borg Sphere arrived in the past, so the operation was interrupted by the Enterprise E showing up, triggering the rest of the film's encounter.

[@Ozzy_2014]

@@shauntempley9757 its circular. The Columbia is seververly damaged in a battle with Romulans. Their warp engines are gone. Subspace communications gone. Their only hope is a relativistic trjp of 11 years their time to the nearest habitble system. Unfourtunately the gods who live there don't want visitors. They might have thrown them into another Galaxy but for the fact the NX-02 can't tell anyone about them. They are taken in as perminent residents. No options offered. The actions of the surviving macos will create diaster. It all culimates in the 25th century and the shocking origins of and end of the Borg. Yep humanity is to blame. Of course if not for Q and Picard the entire multiverse would have been wiped by ancient elder gods. Bored, unimpressed elder gods at that. See Q & A.

[@trek75181]

If Star fleet encounter the Dominion before the Borg , the technology advancements that Star Fleet design to fight the Borg would have never existed. They would have never had a chance against the Dominion. Excellent point.

[@paulscott2037]

This whole rumination exemplifies everything I love about what you do, Lore. You brought up ideas I'd never considered before and put under the microscope some of the most key moments in not only the episode but in the franchise. Sometimes when we watch these episodes we get so engrossed by the action that we miss out on so much implied sub-text and it's amazing to see it with you with analysis mode.

[@LostMercenary99]

I believe Q's ultimate goal was to humble Picard and humanity in general to the idea that they are not the biggest fish in the ocean. The sheer arrogance on display by Picard and Riker in the bar scene (and is total arrogance) probably led Q to believe that when the Borg come for them that they would be doomed. This was him telling them to wake the fuck up to reality in the most Q way possible. It was never about him joining the crew. It was him giving humanity time to prepare for what he knew was on the horizon. And thank God he did otherwise BOTW would have had a very different outcome. So yeah more or less totally agree with your perspective on it Lore.

[@steakman1989]

My thoughts: 1. The budget constraints for the Borg to be cybernetic beings was an unintentional stroke of genius! 2. Ensign Sonya Gomez is an unsung hero of all Star Trek! 3. Guinan continues to be awesome, I wish there were more El Aurians in Star Trek that were well depicted. Maybe they can bring her back for Discovery. 4. Q's line of "oh please" was actually an ab-libbed line, and it was great choice to go with rather than the scripted line. 5. Yes, the Borg are like communism and capitalism to the extreme, but they only work as being simultaneously both at the same time. They are an inherent contradiction made manifest to devour and consume all as a whole and a one. Hegel would have a field day with them. 6. Voyager should not have had so much GREEN on the Borg ships. Question: 1. Did the Enterprise get warped to the Delta Quadrant by Q, or was it closer to the Federation? 2. So how do we reconcile the clear narrative continuity challenges of Q Who, Dark Frontier, and Regeneration? Would the Borg just be considered Double Secret Classified Probation by Starfleet?

[@quasimodojdls]

In answer to your first question - No, the Delta Quadrant isn't mentioned in this episode. In fact, the whole concept of the Alpha, Beta, Gamma, Delta Quadrant division of the galaxy wouldn't be introduced into Trek until the third season TNG episode "The Price" - fourteen episodes from now. In this episode it's only stated that Q moved them 7000 light-years and that it would take two years, seven months at maximum warp to reach the nearest starbase.

[@adeftonic]

In answer to 2 Starfleet may have put 2 and 2 together after the encounter of an unknown cybernetic race who sent a signal to the delta quadrant and the El Aurian refugees who made it to Earth who told of a race in the delta quadrant who were cybernetic organisms. That is IF Enterprise is canon to the TOS TNG DS9 Voy universe. Some speculate that Enterprise is a new or the start of the Kelvin alternate timeline caused by First Contact- which explains why tech in that series and potentially Discovery are so much different to stated canon of the other 4 series. In terms of Dark Frontier its hard to put into the mix. A good episode but does contradict a lot.

[@andrewthorne3570]

@@adeftonic The Kelvin Timeline only started when the Kelvin encounted the Nerada. Enterprise is canon to both Prime and Kelvin timelines

[@EnvisionerWill]

I have a pet theory that Q, even the John De Lancie Q, is not actually an individual, but a role taken on by different individuals from within the Continuum. They wear the face of John De Lancie much the way humans wear a particular costume or uniform; with the exception of Quinn from Death Wish, we never see any different face for the Q unless JDL is already there, in which case we can assume they took a different face (and, in Suzie's case, a different gender) simply for the benefit of the mortal onlookers, or even explicitly for the audience (if anyone can break the fourth wall, it'd be the Q). Thusly, the inconsistent behavior on Q's part is simply the work of different people wearing the JDL mask.

[@ZemplinTemplar]

Possibly one of the greatest episodes of early TNG. Great review as always, LoreRunner. Thanks for pointing to some overlooked elements. :-)

[@jmiester25]

I believe Q wanted the crew to freely admit to themselves and Q that they were in over their heads, like a ship in the ocean that goes too far out from the coast.

[@gingeroverseer9302]

I love revisiting this rumination I love your enthusiasm when discussing the Borg they are equal parts fascinating and horrifying

[@Vandalia1998]

As I was listening to this episode I was wondering why the borg was obsessed with Earth when they could go after the other races of the quadrant too and the reason you gave made sense

[@Ozzy_2014]

Vandalia1998 you want the origins of the Borg you need to read the Star trek destiny trilogy. Their origins tie into humanity and their actions. There's a fact you never hear species designation for humanity. Used to great effect.

[@hamhockbeans]

@@Ozzy_2014 V'ger!!

[@paulheap1982]

@@hamhockbeans umm, no.

[@corssecurity]

@@Ozzy_2014that's at least the second beta Cannon version and the best, but not Alpha Cannon

[@jef_3006]

It’s kinda ironic that Star Trek unintentionally progresses, at to me least in tone and feel, in much the same way as exploration did in the past, and all by accident. Enterprise is the lone expedition, able to rely only on themselves in unknown territory, and Archer is Lewis and Clark, Columbus, Captain Cook TOS is the Wild West and early colonization, with Kirk being the US Marshal, and... I guess if the federation is Britain that makes the Klingons the French? TNG is the second wave of industrialization and colonialism that was seen at the end of the 19th century. It all happens all over again, and with the same players as the first time, so they know what they’re doing. Skyscrapers and dreadnoughts Best of both worlds can be considered WWI DS9 is the world wars, setting up a new galactic order all at once

[@rexremedy1733]

JEF_300 i like that Concept. I makes a lot of sense.

[@riodillinger7719]

Excellent, very on-point analysis of this classic episode!

[@quasimodojdls]

The Federation facing the Dominion without the "benefit" of Wolf 359? Damn, that thought actually made me shudder. "Q Who" is, in my humble opinion, the first 10 out of 10 ten worthy episode for TNG. Sure, there might be logical inconsistencies here and there, but EVERYTHING about this episode sells the menace of the Borg. The atmosphere, lighting, music, acting, ship design, set design, etc. .... all are absolutely top notch stellar! Two things I want to point out, that Lore really didn't quite touch on, that make the Borg so effective as a newly introduced villain race. 1.) The scene where the second drone in Engineering adapts to Worf's phaser blast. After adapting to the phaser, the drone turns and gives Picard, Worf and LaForge an evil scowl (I bothered to look up the time index on my DVDs if anyone is interested - 23:37). OH... MY... GOD! was that scowl effective! Massive props to everyone involved in that brief little moment - the actor playing the drone, the make-up guys, the lighting department (especially the lighting department!). The message from that one brief facial expression is crystal clear.... these Borg are guys you absolutely do not want to mess with! 2.) How they manage to escape from the Cube. This is how you effectively make a villain race appear unbeatable. You don't find some random, technobabble solution to the problem or just have them escape in some unexplained fashion. What saves the day is Q. Let's call a spade a spade here, shall we? What saved them was, for all intents and purposes, divine intervention. They had to have a literal god-like being on their side in order to escape - not to win, not to defeat the Borg.... but just to freaking escape! Since we know that said god-like being isn't going to be around all the time, that really highlights the terror the Borg represent, doesn't it (not to mention highlighting just how impressive their strength is)? As an aside, given that divine intervention (again, let's be honest here) is what pulls our heroes asses out of the fire, it really bothers me that so many fans complain so loudly about it the next time Trek has what can only be called a moment of divine intervention that saves the day on a certain episode of DS9 (I'm sure everyone who has already seen DS9 knows EXACTLY which event I'm talking about) and yet it gets a pass here. 10/10

[@suejoe6094]

The Blessed Exchequer, let me guess: The Deep Space Nine episode, where the inhabitants of the Gamma Quadrant Wormhole, The Prophets, destroy a very large fleet of Dominion warships, while the said warships are still in transit in the Wormhole, on their way to invade the Alpha Quadrant. Divine Intervention, in effect.

[@vesuvanprincess]

Regarding Borg actions now vs future, I think it's worth considering that they have exponential growth. One cube takes a planet, builds a couple new cubes. All of them can now take several planets which each produce a few more... Their tech is similarly exponential. Even their collective pool of experience is exponential. As a result, they could be far weaker now then they will be even a single decade later. So tactics and behavior could be different at any given time period depending on the collectives resources, tech and recently acquired cultures. Actually, I find it fascinating to consider what effect assimilating an entire planet could have on the culture of the Borg. Presumably by this point their numbers are such that any given planet couldn't put a dent... But certainly at some point in their development a few billion new culturally similar individuals added to the hive mind could have had a sudden impact on collective thought.

[@DrewLSsix]

Jessica Day that doesn't really address the continuity issues, and its not how assimilation is shown to work.

[@andrewthorne3570]

How many recognized Sonya Gomez from Total Recall? She has 3 prominent parts in that film even though she's not in it for long

[@robertpratt101]

35:30 As discussing Guinan seeing the Borg, it reminds me of Terminator 2 when Sarah Connor sees the T-800 come out of the elevator. I mean, obviously, they respond differently, but for the sheer "oh shit" factor...

[@twitchybristles]

First time I've watched one of your episodes and I love your style of analysis. Very indepth, thorough discussions!

[@Netherfly]

Really confused listening to you speculate about Q’s motives here. The whole “contest” thing was nonsense. Guinan spells it out in the last scene: Q’s goal was to let the Federation know about the Borg, who (unknown to either her or Picard) were already targeting the Federation. Q is an archetypal Trickster Deity. His goal is to help humanity, but his methods are indirect and his sense of scale entirely alien to our understanding. He doesn’t care about those 17 crewmen because the stakes he’s playing for are so, so, so much bigger. The conflict w/ Q, therefore, is rooted in the inability of Picard and his peers to understand the full scope and scale of Q’s actions, and their inability to trust his motives-or even recognize them. This is the “trial” from Farpoint that “never ends.” Its not about Picard, or the Enterprise, and never was. It was about an entire civilization, about whole centuries or millennia of progress. I’ve seen so,e fans that agree w/ you that this is because Humans Are Special, but I hate that trope (too egotistical) so I think I e gotta disagree. I don’t think it’s biology that interests the Q so much as culture: the Federation represents an “empire” based on infinite diversity, and peaceful cooperation-precisely the kind of culture a benevolent God might want to foster.

[@williammcguire130]

Wanted to respond to you because I agree with so much of what you said but there's literally no way to watch All Good Things... and not come away thinking that humans are special to that particular Q. Not the Federation, except in so far as it represents a human achievement, but humans. The stakes of Q's trial are indeed that humans can raise themselves to Q's perspective in time.

[@TheRetrostorian]

I'm sorry. I love Q. The trickster from supernatural is also one of my favorite characters. There are so many layers to him and he has his own way of instructing. We would call him diabolical by our standards, but he just knows more than us - the viewers. We spend a lot of time in shows knowing more than the characters on the screen, and he makes us feel stupid and talks down to us and doesnt follow the normal narrative script. This is frustrating but brilliant at the same time.

[@twirkwiggler]

I thought it was cool that Brent Spiner portrayed the first borg on screen. The one in engineering

[@RepublicAgent]

I have a hard time enjoying TNG. I really do. I loved this episode. Thank you for doing this rumination. All of them. I still love listening to Voyager's. I finally got to see the introduction of the Borg and it was cool.

[@wolfgangfrost8043]

So it sounds to me like you're a 90's DS9/VOY Trek fan struggling with the weirdness of early TNG? That makes sense. I was born in '89 & a bunch of my earliest Trek memories are Season 7 episodes cause I was about 5 & just starting to absorb the TV my relatives were watching.

[@resurrectedstarships]

What was Q After: The Q Continuum has something sort of like a Prime Directive; don't mess with the ant colonies etc, but Q is a bit deviant and has an attachment and fascination with these 'ants', sees their eminent demise, and interferes 'just enough' to give them a snowballs chance in hell to survive, but not enough to be punished by the Continuum. I pretty much agree with you.

[@Ozzy_2014]

Resurrected Starships the Book Q& A is where Q explains his actions. His motive for involving humanity and Picard specifically becomes known. Literally fate of existence.

[@Yura-Sensei]

Borg became my favorite Star Trek villain as soon as I've seen them. Creepy shit

[@MariahSyn]

You have no idea how long I have been waiting for you to get to this episode! This is one of my very favorites and I appreciate your analysis. I do believe that I have another explanation for the changes to the Borg. Each time the Borg assimilate a new technology or culture they more or less go through an automatic collective-wide update but imagine how many they have assimilated between Q Who and First Contact. Eventually, they went from "Hey we can send a scout over and assimilate the data from their computers" to "Okay transport drones, assimilate!" Technology and Tactics evolve at an alarming rate if you just gobble them up from various sources all day every day.

[@mapleicecream4819]

I like this idea. The Borg all look the same, because of the unifying effects of the Collective, but just because they're very homogeneous doesn't mean they're unchanging. (Perhaps they later assimilated a race that really liked the color green, and went through a long 'green phase'.)

[@jucklowe]

Seriously,, you can't be THAT slow.

[@SchneeflockeMonsoon]

I always figured the Borg were cautious in this episode. They saw a ship they know of and knew shouldn’t be anywhere near that spot yet. So they decided to play at being cautious, for fear they’d missed something important and they were dealing with yet another Earth-borne species they didn’t want to tangle with yet. So they didn’t attack overtly, and only sent over one drone who didn’t assimilate. They looked. They probed a little. And when they retaliated, they backed off their drones and went for the the larger approach: we’ll take a little bit of your ship and see if we can find it here. Only when they hit a wall as to why they were able to get out there did they go after the ship in earnest, and by that point Q jumped back in.

[@rheiagreenland4714]

"WHAT!? You want to beam on board a BORG SHIP?!" Janeway:

[@cml898]

My head cannon is that the Borg just didn’t get around to attempting assimilation yet during the events of the episode. They sent 2 scouts. Riker and company went over while they were regenerating and that was it for direct contact. Riker’s statements in the Borg “nursery” were just assumptions based on what they knew at the time. Those Borg babies were recently assimilated.

[@captmoroni]

The Enterprise crew fought against Synthesis even before knowing what Synthesis is. My favorite version of Q, right here.

[@FreihEitner]

At around 33:30, regarding your explanation on why Guinan's reaction is so chilling, I submit the moment in the film Aliens when Ripley asks Newt something like "Don't you think you'd be safer here with us?" and Newt shakes her head no. That was chilling!

[@rexremedy1733]

Q plays a role which is eerily similar to the role Satan plays in the Bible. I believe this is not an accident. He is a mixture of myths such as Prometheus and other „fallen angel“ like personalities which have this strange dichotomy of being malignant and helpful at the same time. It is widely understood that Satan plays the role of the good guy in occultism and satanism. And if this is understood, once can easily see the resemblance of the mighty temptator of humankind who portrays himself as the good guy. Especially at the pilot and final episodes where he plays the role of judge and accuser of mankind who portraits himself as a kind helpful figure. A mephistopheles kind of being. And the similarity to Satan’s role in the book of Job (the accuser of the brethren) are just too obvious. I believe his success as a character is mostly based on the fact, that people subconsciously perceive his role, and how it ties into biblical lore and which makes his personality interesting. Taking on biblical themes in fiction is very often the base of successful storytelling...

[@resurrectedstarships]

I beleive that Q is secretly VERY benevolent and is teaching us through trickery - think about it, the best and most profound lessons come along due to his actions. And if he had not engineered the events in Q Who the Federation would have been even less prepared for the Borg, and certainly would've fallen.

[@vesuvanprincess]

I think you are close to right but I'd argue he's getting at something that goes further than a single biblical figure: he's the Trickster. Loki, Puck, Coyote, etc. It's a universal figure from mythology and so it only makes sense that most of us would enjoy seeing him in the same way all the humans before us have.

[@rexremedy1733]

Resurrected Starships yes, this is concept i do see. Please check the role of Satan in occultism, and you will see the tremendous similarities between Q and these myths. Btw. I am not an occultist. I see this role of Q very critical since I understand more about the Bible and it’s concepts.

[@gallendugall8913]

The Borg are example 1 for the fan theory that every single episode of every single series and movie in the franchise is a parallel universe.

[@AdamCollings]

Wow. You just totally changed my interpretation of Geordi's "I better get to engineering" line in Ten Forward. That line always came off really weird to me (possibly because I don't think Levar Burton delivered it very well). I interpreted it as "well, the scene needs to end now, so even though I just sat down, I'm gonna ignore my drink and go back to work because we need the audience to feel as though time has passed." But if he's going to engineering because he's concerned that Guinan is sensing something, it suddenly makes sense.

[@stukya]

My favourite episode actually

[@-thaumatur]

Hiya Lore, I never saw the beaming though the shields then draining the shield later as a plot hole. The draining the shields, possibly deflector shield also, was needed to knock them out of warp so they could continue to carve up the enterpise for every scrap of information/resource. I need to watch the episode again to be sure but thats how I saw in ...possibly in my own 'head cannon'

[@jamespepper8671]

When I was a kid i was lost at Sea in the Atlantic Ocean on a disabled boat, floating off the coast of Florida drifting to the Bahamas. It doesn't matter what sea you are on, even if you know its name, you are alone and you are completely dependent on someone noticing you. Fortunately a cigar boat that flew past us in the morning noticed us later in the afternoon and called the coast guard. the coast guard noticed us as well our fishing boat was just tall enough to be a spot on their radar but they didn't have the initiative to go out and see who were were. I was down below running the water filter because I knew we would need fresh water. I was 8 at the time.

[@england9530]

When you say you've already talked about something before could years say where or link it below for those of us who haven't seen everything of yours. Thanks.

[@AunCollective]

If you ask in the comments, I'm sure there's a few of us out there who have seen the entirety of the voyager, ds9, and TNG ruminations up to now that could answer for you. His viewers probably have a better idea where to find some of that info that LR does, especially given the amount of videos he has done. For specific phrases / concepts he has given a name to, check out: lorerunner.com/loreiums

[@ShadowStoryteller]

I heard a theory from somewhere on KZbin awhile ago on why the Borg were interested in humanity in general and, in the long run, it makes sense if you take everything about the Borg we know and establish from First Contact through the Enterprise episode Regeneration on up. This theory stated that the Borg sending one Cube to attack a specific species was a way to improve a species they found interesting and wanted that species to reach a specific level of technology so they could later assimilate those ideas into the collective. Granted, it sounds like Mass Effect's Reapers all over again but it is an interesting theory none the less. On the Q/Guinan thing, I saw this story after it was revealed "she was an El-Aurian and they live a long time and yada yada...", but I also remember the DS9 episode where Q and Vash were travelling companions and that was something I thought of when I saw this episode. Maybe she only said her people when it was "we" in the literal sense of she and him. Just telling the truth in a certain point of view. Lastly, I always loved that soliloquy Q gives to Picard at the end. It's just something that struck me as the perfect thing that someone with both the experience and knowledge would say instead of the childish "I told ya so!" And you're right about the complacency thing, Lore. If the Federation and Starfleet didn't have Wolf 359, if they never encountered the Borg here in this episode at System J-25, if they only judge their accomplishments based on the Klingons or the Romulans...the fleet would have had their literal and figurative asses handed to them against the power that is The Dominion. One Cube, augmented by Picard's knowledge of Starfleet ships and tactics, destroyed 39 ships and killed almost 39,000 people (still don't remember the exact tally) and this was just straight up Borg efficiency. The Dominion used spycraft and subterfuge to get information about ship classes, fleet strength and more so they could later destroy and dominate whole swaths of territory from The Federation and The Klingons etc. My point is that, if the Borg hadn't been a danger down the road...how many more ships and crews would have been lost? How much of the Federation and Starfleet would be just shocked by the destruction The Dominion would cause and demand for a negotiation would turn into a treaty like the Cardassian Treaty was over on DS9? To use a real world analogy to my idea of their probable actions it would probably be like the WW1 generals with all of their faith in a plan without an understanding of how the principal of warfare had changed from drills and charges to flamethrowers and machine guns. And next week, The Pakleds...the only species that makes me go "WHY?!?" Seriously, what in the name of all creation where the writers thinking when they made these idiots? I know it was to disguise their cunning but, again...WHY?!?!

[@DrewLSsix]

My going fan theory for the Borg is that they were effectively cultivating the federation. If their interests lay in assimilating unique and advanced groups then they likely wouldn't have much interest in the federation at that moment, the fed is decently advanced but have nothing substantial the Borg need or want. The federation also represents a significant chunk of the galaxy in terms of space acreage, so assimilating them now would gain little more than a lot of drones and render a large part of the galaxy effectively sterile in the foreseeable future. So they sacrifice a cube here and there over the years and watch the federation adapt and develop into something worthwhile, it's hard to imagine even if the fed went full military dictatorship they could actually stand against the Borg making a genuine effort to assimilate them. The flood of thousands of cubes popping into every major system would simply overwhelm them even if each tiny ship the fielded was capable of taking down a cube by itself. The math changes as the Borg take substantial losses against 8472, assimilating earth and the federation gains them a bit of tech and a lot of drones, as well as what seemed to be a plan B of sending a queen and some drones back in time where they can escape the enemy and buff the 21st century collective for their encounter with 8472.

[@Vandalia1998]

Is this the end of the Golden Age of Star Trek history that you mentioned before?

[@wolfgangfrost8043]

I've been listening a little out of order, but the introduction of the Borg is definitely the end of the Original Series way of thinking in terms of production ethos.

[@jasoncrowell8863]

STO Comment: When Borg Tactical Drones take control...I *almost* freakout, even knowing that it's just a game and I'll respawn in a minute. That aesthetic is utterly terrifying.

[@TheRetrostorian]

"Captain, another Borg cube!"

[@technosworld2]

great rumination for a great episode, thanks!

[@worldsbestpantz3445]

I heard an interesting fan theory the other day. Normally, I don’t subscribe to fan theories because usually they’re pretty baseless and either don’t add anything, or indeed take away, from the work. But this one caught my attention and I like it quite a bit. The theory is that the Q, or perhaps just Q himself, is and/or are descended from humanity and they’ve simply evolved to a different form. This would explain why Q is so interested in humanity and is so invested in shepherding them to a greater future. I liked this theory so much, in fact, that I took it a step further and started thinking what if Q was not only a descendent of humanity, but is in fact a direct descendant of Jean-Luc Picard himself? It fits into my mind very easily and just kind of feels right. I dunno, it’s still just fan theory stuff, but I like it quite a bit.

[@randersona9697]

This is the first time episode that I've made sure to sit down and watch the episode before your rumination - I'm so glad I did! Great episode to re-experience. I forgot what a sinister note it ends on. The thing that I always found really uncomfortable about the Borg was the name: it's neither singular nor plural. It's just The Borg. Something about that makes them feel so much more alien to me - like they're (it's?) so much harder to define. The very fact that it might be best to describe the borg as 'it', not 'they', is something my brain just finds deeply uncomfortable. That's the main reason I really dislike the introduction of the Queen: I feel like she makes them (and 'them', not 'it', is an important difference) too recognisable - even if not human, then insect-like. Which I suppose is ironic given the initial idea for them

[@Pondimus_Maximus]

There was so much in this episode that was pure awesomeness, but there was one thing that always bugged me: Guinan's very underwhelming reaction to this unstoppable, unfeeling enemy, which very nearly made her race extinct. She was very casual about the possibility that she and her shipmates were all about to die. Sonja Gomez was great! Very funny. 😀 I also thought the Borg aesthetic in the TV series was far more menacing than the grey/green crap from the movies, which followed into Voyager. I even liked Borg ship better, than the movie version. Finally, the laser cutting into the Enterprise, and scooping out entire sections of decks, was visually satisfying, and believable. They even went as far as to show the ships atmosphere venting into space. The TNG VFX team were top notch!

[@williamboge7074]

Sorry I’m slow on the uptake, but just trying to find Star Trek episodes with q in them. I think it’s the best of everything after the original.

[@resurrectedstarships]

oh GOOD A LONG ONE!! *Gets coffee and settles in. :D BTW your Borg video was the first one I ever saw; at first I was amused at your emotionality but it had a lasting impact on my thoughts about the borg.

[@stephenbeaniehines]

Hi Lore, Really enjoying all of your Star Trek Ruminations. I think you are your channel are brilliant. I often play your videos when I'm doing my paperwork. Great stuff. I just wanted to add my thoughts on the changes to The Borg over time. I see them as stealing and assimilating new technology, so that each time we meet them they are more advanced. So for example. The assimilation tubials are developed from stolen tech between BOBW and First Contact. Explaining why the borg drone in Q Who? Doesn't use them.

[@tee_es_bee]

From the three races you mentioned as bad guy of the week, I remembered only the Edo god.

[@SchneeflockeMonsoon]

I cannot wait to show off this episode to my friends. They have no idea what the Borg are, or that they’ll be back. I intentionally have been showing them episodes that don’t pay off/have returns like Conspiracy and 11001001. I want to relish their fear when we get to Best of Both Worlds and they realize: “Oh shit. They’re here.” It’s like being able to watch the Vader reveal on someone who’s never seen Empire Strikes Back. After all: “Now that they know you’re out there: they’ll be coming for you.”

[@stevencoardvenice]

Search your feelings...

[@mr51406]

Always a fantastic and also fundamental episode. Very interesting critique as usual. 🌟 Love Whoopi Goldberg! Keep your eyes on her in her scenes as she listens to the other actors. Look at her eyes! She now has a full interview at the Television Academy. Go see it! 🚩But it’s a frustrating show because we know what’s coming and it reinforces Q’s assessment that we aren’t ready at all. 1. Guinan: you gotta get out of here! Picard: Let’s explore a bit. 2. Guinan and Deanna: you gotta get the hell outta here! Picard: Let’s reach out to them. 3. Guinan, Deanna and Q: you gotta get the F* outta here! Picard: let’s go over to the Cube. 4. Picard: oh 💩 help us Q! Q: told you so you prat! 🚩Praise to Peter for his much better sketches.

[@adeftonic]

I think the torpedoes destroying the Enterprise came from either the torpedo exploding causing the Borg ship explode which because of its size could have taken the enterprise out. Or the torpedoes being so close cause the warp field to collapse.

[@enlightedjedi]

Killing a few borg drones is effectively a scratched thumb for the collective!...

[@peterkottke2570]

Picard: Hello class. Starfleet has asked me to discuss with you the protocols for dealing with omni-powerful beings. These beings can telport themselves, you, or even your ship at will. Create items with a wave of their hand. Some can even travel through time. On average starfleet vessels encounter one omni-powerful being per year. Today's discussion is about avoiding any temptation to mock them. Student: What if they appear as a clown? or they behave like an idiot? Picard: Especially then. Off beat behavior is often a signal of a being has become bored with his Another student: Isn't it true that some omni-powerful beings were defeated because it turns out that mocking them was their weakness? Picard: In a few isolated cases, but that should only be done once you have through logic and investigation proven that is the correct course of action. Student: I don't know. I'd say that showing weakness would be the bigger folly. We're the Federation. Stand proud and show them we belong here. Picard: Stop laughing Q. Q: Mon capiton. Did you really think you could change them? ------------------------- I did not like Q prior to this episode. I viewed him as an over-acting plot device. This episode changed me on that. I'd go a step farther with Q motives. Q deliberately provoked Picard and step this encounter to teach a lesson and give the Federation a fighting chance. The borg had already been active in the Nuetral Zone if Q hadn't acted the Federation would have encountered them soon enough without any advanced warning.

[@tbk2010]

Great episode and great rumination! As awesome as best of both worlds and first contact were (lets forget about everything after that), the Borg - to me - were never as scary as in this episode. No face to talk to (locutus/queen/seven). No interest in culture, biology or esthetics. No meaning or morality. Perfect precision. Every move they make accomplishes exactly what it is supposed to. The Enterprise and its crew are not treated as threat or even a curiosity, they are a just another helpless lower lifeform to be disected and exploited with maximum efficency. That's at least as loftcraftian as the xenomorph, which I feel is kind of the next-of-kin to the borg at least from the design. Overall, this is what made TNG its own thing, more than a rehash of old TOS ideas.

[@harpercole5321]

Thanks, that was enjoyable - this is one of the episodes I've been looking forward to. Together with "The Measure of a Man", one of the roses amidst the S2 thorns. My take on Q here was that he was largely improvising, and thought up the meeting with the Borg on the fly when Picard rashly declared his crew able to handle anything. Guinan's presentation seems to be more powerful here than in other episodes. She seems capable of holding back with her hand gestures, and I feel there's occasional implications that she might be able to survive the destruction of the Enterprise (she tells Picard "defend yourselves" not "defend us"). I prefer the less powerful version from episodes like "Yesterday's Enterprise".

[@gm2407]

I think Q wanted UFP/Starfleet to prepare for the fact that just because they want peaceful relations does not mean that every species does, and to show them that they can't overcome every problem without preperation against a methodical, determined, tireless foe known or unknown. It was to make the Federation aware of their deficiencies and work towards betterment by showing them a real threat, when they had previously been coasting.

[@williamozier918]

To kind of make your point: it's not that I remember the Husnok, it's that I remember Kevin Umbridge.

[@caloss2]

Great analysis, but what is that low hum (100 Hz) ... Enterprise engine noise or something in the background that's been answered before ?

[@SexycuteStudios]

That low hum has been going on for months now. It comes and goes several times in every video!

[@gingeroverseer9302]

I believe he established it was his aircon. In case you were still wondering apologies if you know by now already.

[@rexremedy1733]

Just thought it was my hard drive... thanks! Wars almost checking my HDD... :-)

[@Ozzy_2014]

It be akin to suggesting that he wants to take a stroll inside a supernova. Just as suicidal. The novel Q & A explaims everything. The fate of existense from power far above the Q. It will be determined by the judging of who is at the end of the universe on the last day. If its the Borg then the multiverse dies. If its humanity......if its Picard?

[@thomasn3882]

The Enterprise had the cube on the ropes at one point - twenty percent of it damaged severely. The phasers were carving up the cube badly. But typical of Starfleet, they ceased firing at that point. What would have happened if the Enterprise had continued firing without ceasing? Would they have destroyed the cube? Or would the Borg regenerative powers kicked in before it was too late?

[@hotblackdesiato3022]

The reason the Borg don't assimilate the Enterprise is because the concept didn't exist in the writers' minds yet, IMO.

[@paulscott2037]

After all the Voyager Borg episodes we're finally here

[@Crazael]

Q has some wonderful lines in this episode.

[@simicmagic4806]

You ask, "What did Q want?" and reference the coming Dominion war in your answer... While your point is certainly valid, there is something else to consider. The Cube the Enterprise encountered; where was it going? In Voyager there was an arc in which 7 of 9's origin is shown. Her family is assimilated and the Borg learn about the Federation. For them this could be their first direct encounter with the UFP. Picard says at the end of the episode, "They will be coming." I think they were already coming. I think the Cube the Enterprise encountered was already on it's way to Earth when suddenly this Federation ship just pops up close by. I think Q was giving Picard warning about the massive sh*tstorm which was already heading their way.

[@Mikanojo]

What bothered me the most about the Borg was how Q reacted to them, spoke about them, and used them. Q put humanity on trial for being a supposedly violent race that the universe would be better off without.. but Q are oki with the Borg???

[@DarthDJJD]

Excellent Rumination! It's a great episode! This is the episode I believe took TNG to the next level, climaxing at "The Best of Both Worlds!" After that the show waned, when "Babylon 5" and "The X-Files" replaced TNG in better writing and story/character arks. I did not watch "Deep Space Nine" due to the obvious copying of "Babylon 5"; but I watched it recently (enjoying it more-so with these Ruminations on this channel. Another reason would be the sheer lack of story/character arks in current Sci-Fi shows and movies (except for "The Expanse" - A MUST SEE! and "Orville"). I could not stomach Voyager and Enterprise, especially with their politically correct character creation. LoreRunner, I know you like Voyager; but you will have to prove me wrong. Take care.

[@Kinepho]

There's your defense against the Borg, Lorerunner. Send Jar Jar after them. The entire collective would self destruct.

[@paulmcgettigan9068]

Lore I've heard many you tubers say the borg send one cube because that's all they feel is needed. But in voyager Dark Frontier the queen says all direct attacks on humanity have failed and she wants 7 of 9 to come up with an airborne assimilation virus. When in theory the borg have a transwarp hub that could allow hundreds of cubes at earth. Voyager messed up the borg and how powerful they are varies to suit the story line

[@rmsgrey]

That final quote reminds me of Farscape. That is all.

[@ryanspencerlauderdale687]

I actually like the fact that the Borg were pushed back to Q Who, instead of being introduced at the tail end of Season 1. I feel like they would not have had the resonant gut-check punch and terror among science fiction fans, if they had done it any other way. The idea of the Borg being the reason for the massacres on the Romulan Neutral Zone doesn’t make sense. But Q being the one to throw the Enterprise to the sharks early, and hoping to hell they have any concept of swimming, let alone eluding the coming storm, was genius in my opinion. I like how we see a different concept of the Borg every time we see them, from Q Who to BOBW to First Contact to Voyager to Enterprise. It’s as if the Borg are adapting and evolving before our very eyes, becoming this enemy that only gets stronger and smarter every time we see them, with no concept of the Collective ever being completely annihilated.

[@nemesisPhD]

I never realised the Borg were not deliberately designed to be Zombie archetypes. I had thought they were a deliberate way to trigger the uncanny valley effect we get from zombies. They look like zombies, move like zombies, assimilate you (turn a normal person into a zombie), are not bothered by normal attacks like zombies, do not show any individuality or thought but show a single mindedness and mob behaviour like classic zombies. Add the second natural revulsion from the body modification with machine parts and they are like uberzombies designed to create fear and disgust. And now you tell me they were NOT designed they just settled?! I feel disappointed, which is odd, because the Borg are still Borg.

[@venkataramana7108]

Where to see thie full episode??

[@permeus2nd]

34:40 my response is i hope im wearing brown pants, black is also a good colour to hide stuff in.

[@StefanTravis]

As to why the Borg didn't immediately assimilate Enterprise, there's a line in a Voyager episode where Seven says something like: "Species number-number-number, the collective encountered them in wherever - they were deemed unworthy of assimilation". So, the Borg don't automatically assimilate everything - they send a scout to determine whether the gains would be worth the effort. And sometimes, they pass.

[@rexremedy1733]

Stefan Travis wow! Even the Borg don’t have to assimilate everything and everybody.

[@SexycuteStudios]

@@rexremedy1733 Nope, only Humanity.

[@wangbot47]

Hey here's a weird question; What is the lifespan of a Borg drone? We've seen they can regenerate from big damage, even come back from the dead in Enterprise... how long can a drone live if not killed? Indefinitely? 300 years? The show never addresses it.

[@anna-elizabeth]

A favorite episode of mine. Note that Guinan, while leery of Q's presence, and genuinely fearful of the Borg, is not personally afraid of Q. What edge does she feel she possesses against Q? And I know it wasn't even hinted at in the series(plural), but how creepy would it have been if the inconsistencies in Q we're because it was a *different* Q each time?

[@DrownedInExile]

The timing of Picard's decision to pull the away team and get the hell out of dodge seemed odd. Particularly after Riker's comment that the Borg were like a juggernaut, could start any second. Then I started thinking, what about those 18 people who went missing during the Borg's first attack? What if Picard thought they were still alive, and had been captured by the Borg? What if the away mission was also a rescue mission? That would have explained a lot: why the Enterprise didn't just continue phasor-strafing the Borg, and why the away team lingered as long as they did. Pity the writers didn't think of that.

[@zakuguriin4521]

"We have established this super mega villain! What now...?" The final arc of Bleach. Lol

[@fredrikcarlstedt393]

In this, Picard and his crew gets to know the true cost of being arrogantly smug towards Q .

[@dornravlin]

I like Gomez she was really passionate about joining star fleet and was trying to hard ive been there

[@madalynnights4612]

Here's my theory on why Q introduced the Federation to the Borg. He is afraid of the Borg, because he realise that if they ever catch him, they could assimilate him. Imagine that, a Borgified Q.... **shudder**

[@twirkwiggler]

Man, I just woke up to Q who

[@Hurricanelive]

I also think Q had selfish reasons to accelerate humanity as his primary motivation, to give humanity a chance. Through that Q finds himself seeing himself in need of a friend, an actual friend, someone that can be his tie between his lonesome road and viewing humanities reaching the next road, a secondary motivation. He enjoys and relishes humanity more and more, but he still in his semi omnipotent way can only take them in drips and drabs. They are his indulgence, specifically through his man crush and his ship. Q didn't have to get off the porch and walk the lonesome road to save humanity, Q's are as a majority such a detached bored race. There are undoubtedly worse things then the Borg, very bad things in the far darkness that even the Q avoid, fear, and refuse to speak of.

[@1300l]

For me, this is the best Borg Episode/Movie. The way they were too is the best.. even better than best of both worlds. But.. in my head, they assimilate so many cultures that they just changed.. The borg Queen even for me never existed before Locutus. Assimilate picard created unique individuals on the borg.. The Queen and Locutus himself. I must say too, i like Whoopi, she is a great actress. But this role of her's in Star Trek TNG.. It's just perfect. All the planets aligned, writing, her acting, concept of her character. I see she do it with love and not with a "i'm a big Hollywood Shot and i'll shine more than the others). I love her, shame that they never explored her beef with Q, in the way of how it happen and why. I agree with your head cannon of Q too. How he is a jerk, but with good intentions. That's just his omnipotent way of help in his mind. Q is kind of childish too, not mature as mankind on the 24th century.. And that's why the continuum feel threaten by "us"... i think. Q is also big for Picard, for him to loosenup. I love how even without trust on Q.. in the end he had to just.. trust his help to take him out of the Borg Situation. Q had his way for his arrogance, yet teach mankind a big lesson. In different way, Q and humans are too arrogant. Guinan is the balance point that both should and will reach when evolve more. What was Q after? For me, he know how mankind is out of control on expansion and exploration. How he really feel mankind will make enemies that can destroy us. So he wanted to help by be Picard Mentor (his goal all over the series). Once Picard say "no, i don't trust you".. He just loose his mind and take them to the most extreme that mankind will face. Once Picard admit he need him and that we are antiquate to deal with some civilizations who could finish us.. he knew his goal was reach and thus he leave. What i like the most on the Borg in this episode, they don't come and take what they want. They want to Analise both if the Enterprise is a threat and if they have enough tech for them to use. I don't think that at this point of time they come and take. They Analise, judge and then make they're move. No hurry. I think that once they assimilated Picard, they started to have this human trait of I WANT IT AND I WANT IT NOW! The borg also don't waste resources, i think that they didn't just come and take to test the Enterprise and it's crew. If we are worthy of assimilation. How we deal with such a threat. I think the borg was testing us to see if we are worthy of assimilation. I also think that the enterprise was more powerfull than in Best of Both worlds, First Contact the movie and Voyager. That the Enterprise did made a HUGE blow on the borg.. but eventually the borg would annihilate the Enterprise.. even if they would almost lose. That's why they need Picard to invade the Federation, they aren't as powerful as they seem without assimilation before invasion. I think if Maurice Hurley wasn't driven by greed and just did his job without fight for be the top shot... he would be one of the best writers in Star Trek. Shame, wasted potential

[@jeffborowiak8992]

But would the Borg want Jar Jar?

[@paulscott2037]

I used to find that Sonya Gomez scene really cringy but I appreciate it more now. I do especially like how she says about showing even replicators some common courtesy. Though if you aren't allowed food and drink in engineering then why the hell is there a replicator right there? I didn't know she was an intended love interest for Geordi. Personally I don't think it would have worked as a romance but Levar Burton and the actress definitely have chemistry as friends.

[@dirtywashedupsparkle]

Clearly Sonya Gomez was supposed to be Jordy's love interest. But apart from give Picard a reason to go into the turbolift, I didn't see the point of her in this episode. She is rather jittery, which is fine, but she needed to be shown to have serious engineering cred as well. This episode became so cool the moment the Borg cube appeared. It also raised the question of who Guinan was on a secondary level - an imp? What's her power? She had her claws ready to fight Q, of all things. I continue to like Guinan's character. To me she was always not simply human by virtue of her simply not having those eyebrows. This was the first time I was given the idea she might have superior powers. Q - I don't think I quite agree that it's a case of several writers here. With those three categories, I see them as a progression in his perception of humanity. In the first appearance he's the reckless and annoying omnipotent being, who gets surprised by humans. The second time he's curious and more intrigued by humanity, giving Riker Q powers. This time he's come to like them, and also he's been booted out of the continuum and getting bored and needs friends to feed his ego. To me this makes sense as a character progression. I like your take on the different directions of TNG and DS9, good insights.

[@athrunzala6919]

It was always a let down not learning anything about Q and Guinan -- not just this episode, but the entire series -- Hell STX: Guinean vs Q, would have been better then nemesis!

[@zakuguriin4521]

I probably shouldn't put this on a Star Trek episode, but can I expect a Rumination of Xenogears for PS1? I noticed you have done Ruminations for all the other Xeno series and got curious if that is on the list of Ruminations.

[@rexremedy1733]

I had given Q Guinans job...

[@Helyyx]

Without giving too much away for those whom have not seen later (chronologically) episodes of Trek... "If the Continuum's told you once, they've told you a thousand times: DON'T - PROVOKE - THE BORG!"... annnnnd yet isn't that what the Q we all love to hate does in this episode? If not directly at least passively? Okay... I wonder if this is the reason for "Déjà Q". Any of you have thoughts on that? Perhaps Mr. Archengeia has a comment on this?

[@Belzediel]

No, no no, 41.00 the Borg would not send thirty cubes, or a hundred cubes, you've fallen to one of the presumptive biases. If X would require thirty times more Borg than there are on cube A, then you send a cube thirty times larger. The cubes are not a class of ship, they are not a given size. The line, later, about the dimensions of the next cube being exactly the same as the one here is not to indicate that the Borg standardise, because they don't, but to tell us that it's not another cube, it's THE SAME cube.

[@DrLynch2009]

The End of Innocence.

[@gallendugall8913]

Went to Wiki to quickly find some refutation to the idea that television story arcs were unusual when TNG came out. According to Wiki, unless you count soap operas, it didn't exist at all prior to Buffy... in '97. Yeah, I'm calling BS on Wiki. Also Wiki once again has never heard of B5 - thanks Trek Jihadists, I'm sure one day you will achieve your dream of yours being the one true sci-fi franchise. Frankly, I remember lots of little shows had story arcs in the '80s, sure none of them were cultural phenomena, but this was not a new thing. In fact I remember how odd it was that they didn't do arcs on TNG and kept dropping arc threads. It's something I recall having multiple conversations about in High School and in the Navy. Invariably the weirdness was put down to 1) Roddenberry being very old fashioned, 2) the strike, 3) the network not expecting the show to make it more than a season, and 4) no one in charge having any idea what to do with the show. So with Wiki failing me and taking things into my own hands I go back... to Wiki and look at specific shows from that era and to my surprise all of them had arcs. Maybe not episode to episode linked arcs like B5 did, and is so common now, but yes even the very episodic series like The A-Team and MacGyver and the ficking Love Boat all had recurring story elements that linked with earlier episodes, but not TNG. Seriously every series I looked up had a section for recurring elements most of which have a beginning middle and end. Thin - yes, by modern standards, but they did happen routinely. Every major show has serious arcs - Miami Vice as far back as 1980 had them. Look through their Wiki sections yourself. Only in TNG all threads were either dropped or when they came back, like the Borg or Q, they were completely different and disconnected each time so that they cannot be called an arc. TNG was weird and it was weird that they didn't do story arcs.

[@enlightedjedi]

Why can't you have the super mega villain win? What's wrong with hero 2.0?

[@ALoonwolf]

As for the cube, for some reason secret societies and Muslims depict the God of Israel as a giant cube.??!? And notice cube sounds like Q.

[@jonasodhner6507]

42:59 Avengers Infinity War joined the chat

[@kardy12]

The Q have been used as a sort of all powerful deus ex machina since the start of TNG, and despite the fact that I quite like the actor I have never particularly liked the Q as a story telling device. Also, given that the entire event was staged by Q, who if anything actually provoked the Borg to guarantee they’d be coming for earth earlier than they otherwise would have just to please his own whims, how is this episode about starfleet “arrogance”?

[@Ozzy_2014]

@Lore Runner love this stuff. I have to recommend people read the novels which at least after nemesis were at the time cannon. The destiny trilogy Gods of Night, Mere Mortals and Lost Souls. Dealing with the crew of the NX-02 Columbia and their compliment of macos who's direct actions close a time loop resulting in the very creation of the Borg after their encounter with a race so advanced they would be called gods by lesser beings. The line between technology/biology/culture is like the line between shore and the sea. Overlapping and non existent. Other parts involve the invasion of the Borg Armada into the Beta and Alpha quadrants in the years after Nemises, Dominion war etc. About 5 years past. Involving Picard on the Enterprise. Riker as captain of his own ship and Capt Ezri Dax aboard her own ship as central characters. Many worlds destroyed by the Borg who after several encounters with humanity after Voyager have decided against assimilation. They're angry now and intend to sterilize both quadrants to remove the threat permanently! No more spoilers there but excellent writing by David Mack. In addition Q & A has the reappearance of Q! With Picard being singled out with the sake not just of the universe but multiverse at stake. Even the Q have older darker Gods it seems.

[@nicholassterling8483]

_Samaritan Snare_, not _Manhunt_. Nick :-)