Star Trek The Next Generation Ruminations S3E05: The Bonding

[@nicholassterling8483]

_It's Only a Paper Moon_ brings back the holodeck-as-grieving concept, and it works so extraordinarily well. Nick :-)

[@malvane8061]

In a post-scarcity society, where medicine has extended the natural lifespan beyond 100 years on average, grief would be even more impactful. Roddenberry's ideas never met the sniff test of internal consistency.

[@AlcomIsst]

Fun fact: While they're scanning the energy field about 18 minutes into the episode, the planet surface on the viewscreen is Valles Marineris on Mars.

[@wargeek4577]

What if Wesley was the one to persuade him to turn of the program, you can get more Wesley dealing with his fathers death as well as Wesley making new friends

[@Pondimus_Maximus]

"Gene, your wife and children were all killed in a fire." "Oh. Hey, since you're here, you got time for a round of golf, this afternoon?"

[@hamhockbeans]

Gene would be too busy screwing young ladies. If anything he hopes of no emotion in the world so he does not get his butt divorced for having affairs. No emotion by others for getting mad at him for taking credit for others hard work.

[@Edax_Royeaux]

That would explain how Gene had the gall to turn around and mock the Arsenal of Democracy after he crashed a B-17 bomber and got 2 people killed. The man can be quite ruthless.

[@rhinoman8586]

i keep watching theses i might actually have to watch star trek

[@peterkottke2570]

Organian: We have been observing humans for some time. The recent developments in their evolution have been disturbing. Many of them are no longer experiencing grief or emotion over death having accepted it as a natural step in life. Q: So, if they choose to no longer have emotional breakdowns over the deaths of their own species. Why should we care? Metron: And what occurs if humanity comes across a threat that challenges their very survival? Will they apply this attitude to their enemies? And should their Federation fall? Will they apply their casual acceptance of death to any in their way? Organian: We already have 1 borg species. We do not need another. They need to be tested. Determine if they are becoming a threat to the galaxy or if they are capable of evolving into something better. Q: Who wants that job? Metron: I suggest we draw cosmic strings. Q: Dammit, I got the short one! - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - One of the big ways tp get around the Roddenberry box was to use aliens. Even highly powerful aliens like the Dowd are shown to have the capacity of grief. And really the ability to not feel pain and grief over the death of another isn't evolving it's devolving. A species capable of that emotional detachment outside the laws and ideals of the Federation ( which was created by humans who fully experienced pain and grief ) would be a serious threat to other species around them. I'd say though that this was the first real crack in the Roddenberry box. Where the writers began to rebel against its restrictions. It wouldn't be though until the Marquis that they went and outright smashed it. Another note, I get the idea of Doctor Crusher immediately declaring the mother dead. Doctors particularly military doctors are trained to do that. ( and yes they can be ordered in the nuetral zone to fight Romulans on a moments notice. They are military even if they don't think they are ) Especially with a medical tricorder, a Star Trek doctor would be able to quickly determine if a patient is well beyond saving much quicker than modern day doctors.

[@michaelpuglisi6767]

In DC's Star Trek: The Next Generation 25, we see Jeremy meeting the Rozhenkos and Alexander.

[@maxh_music]

This episode was the straw that broke the camel's back for me when it came to the 'super powerful alien who can perfectly disguise themselves as human yet something is slightly off' star trek trope. My god...it just comes up too much!

[@andrewthorne3570]

RMD later wrote the teleplay for It's Only A Paper Moon, which wasn't supoposed to be set on the Holosuite but in Quark's but the writer said "Ron asked us to draft a full outline based on the premise of Nog coming home after "The Siege of AR-558" with a cybernetic leg, and seeking solace in the Vic Fontaine holoprogram." very similar to what this episode should have been

[@dirtywashedupsparkle]

I found myself agreeing so much with everything you said. Emotionally and with regard to character I felt that it really worked well on this one. I felt that each main cast member responded to death with all the consistency and gravity that each character would have felt - it seemed particularly well considered. The thing about this 'Roddenberry Box' idea is that I think it works best as a point of tension between what is aspired to or believed (the box) and the underlying reality (that it is actually more like where we are as humanity now). If they simply did not grieve and that was absolutely what it was, then it would not resonate with the audience and where they are; however, when you have the espoused Roddenberryism held at one end, and the underlying reality that we all have to let our emotions out and let grieving take its course, well it works better. It's good they took Troi's empathic sense seriously. I loved the interaction between Wesley and his mother Dr Crusher. And the expression of emotion between Wesley and Picard. Why didn't they try to revive Aster? Death is not necessarily final if it's really recent in TNG. I also agree with the lack of continuity over Worf bonding with Jeremy. He never appears again. In the whole series. Heck, that is a pretty big miss as far as I'm concerned. Yes, exactly - just drop a name, say he was sent back to the parents of Worf, or something. I felt the worst part of this episode was actually the alien. It was an element that felt tacked on. I mean, what did the alien think was going to happen? That the crew would simply let Jeremy go with it? It comes across as incredibly naive. An additional thing - these Koinonians. The name koinonia is a word that means something along the lines of deep community. it's a word that Christians studying the Bible come across. It described the sense of unity, oneness in spirit of the early church, the deep soul-level sense of being one community that one might only rarely get these days. It's interesting that the aliens were two races that depended on each other symbiotically, one matter, the other energy. Their koinonia was somethingthey enjoyed until the matter-koinonians killed each other off, thus making the energy-koinonians keen to ensure matter beings like Jeremy were never alone again. If only the alien backstory were presaged better earlier on in the episode, or even that the aliens were left out altogether. Really, the big point is that death is a great loss, and even in the 24th Century it is the same huge mystery it is now. There is no getting around it, no avoiding it or making light of it. It is stupid to do anything else but face it, this horrible part of life that cannot fail to affect us. As someone who was been hit by death in the family, this episode really struck a chord with me. Thank goodness it did so with all the seriousness it required. I know Roddenberry had this vision of this utopian world, but if one does that, they have to address reality as we experience it now. You cannot paint the light without the dark to set it off, or else it really doesn't hook us. At the other end though it's pretty bleak when the tone is set right at the other end, and that's something later episodes in the franchise delved into - it becomes good for storytelling as well, but frankly it's not the same thing anymore either. At the end of the day I am for any good storytelling and characterisation, but if the tone is set toward the Roddenberry end of the scale I think that's what true classic Star Trek is, and that is what I originally went for amongst other things - a sense of a better way to be. Especially in this turgid age of divisiveness and ideological schism, we need at least one thing to show us some light, some unity and something better up ahead.

[@keitht24]

I agree with you. Roddenberry box is stupid & betrays the very idea of what it means to be human. If my memory serves me correctly, Roddenberry was against the episode, where Picard goes home after the Borg incident & reconciles with his brother. Children struggling with accepting, or rejecting the traditions of their parents & the conflicts that can arise from this will never go away.

[@DrCuriensapprentice]

The Roddenberry box seems to be more of a guide for the Borg than Humans

[@jeremyjohnson8844]

Melinda, not Melissa, Snodgrass. Also, the box is awesome. It is a hopeful escapism for me and I love going there.

[@ChocolatierRob]

I'm not opposed to philosophy-box thinking or writing... but Gene's box specifically is a thing of dystopian nightmares. Why would the kid go live with Worf's parents, they said in the episode that he has an aunt and uncle back on Earth

[@technosworld2]

I do think "the box" is part of what made Star Trek so unique in the beginning and I do think it's good to try to show people what an idealized version of the future can look like if we work hard enough. Whether Gene was correct, we won't know unless we can live 3 more centuries....BUT I do think that if we were to go back in time to 3 centuries ago and explain that modern society has moved past a lot of the old things that used to be done...slavery, child labor, burning witches (or whatever they actually did), etc. they might be surprised that we've come this far.

[@stanislavkostarnov2157]

most of the anger at the "Roddenberry box" I see, is actually people reacting to the realization they represent that which the universe needs to evolve out of to become perfect. it's the feeling of a Trek-Fan realizing Treks about a universe that has no part of him in it.

[@DrownedInExile]

As with most things, the Gene-box only works if it's well-executed. Shoe-horning in an alien-of-the-week is not good execution. Also even if in Trek-world grief isn't a thing among adults, it should still be a thing for a 12-year old! I do love the idea of the kid hiding in the holodeck. I believe this idea would end up being revisited in DS9's "It's only a Paper Moon".

[@starwolf99]

"How we deal with death is at least as important as how we deal with life, wouldn't you say?" Kirk's words still hold true 40 years after Wrath of Khan.

[@jerryharris876]

5:30. What about the death of Tasha? People grieved on that.

[@quasimodojdls]

WORF: Join me in the R'uustai, the Bonding. You will become part of my family now and for all time. We will be brothers. JEREMY: Wow, that sounds great! Have you got any other brothers or sisters? WORF: I had a brother once. JEREMY: Had? What happened to him? WORF: I had his mind wiped without his consent. He no longer remembers that he is my brother. JEREMY: What? Why would you do a thing like that to your own brother? WORF: So I wouldn't have to kill him. JEREMY: Huh? WORF: I also have an adopted brother, but I don't get along with him. JEREMY: "HE'S" the brother you don't get along with?! What did he do? WORF: He tried to save a bunch of people from a planet-wide catastrophe instead of sitting back and watching them die. What a jerk! JEREMY: .... .... .... .... Um, okay. What about your parents? WORF: I told you they were slaughtered by filthy, disgusting Romulans. JEREMY: No, I mean your adopted.... .... wait, what? That sounds kind of prejudiced against Romulans. WORF: Yes, it is. What's your point? JEREMY: Oh, nothing. .... .... Anyway, I meant your adopted parents. WORF: Oh. They're still alive but I keep them at an emotional distance. JEREMY: Why? Are they bad people? WORF: No, of course not. They are loving and kind. JEREMY: So, why keep them at a distance? WORF: Because. JEREMY: Oh, okay then. Are you married? WORF: I was married once. JEREMY: What happened? WORF: She was butchered by a quasi-supernatural entity inhabiting a war criminal. JEREMY: .... .... .... .... WORF: I did manage to get revenge for her, however. JEREMY: How did you do that? WORF: My buddies and I blew up a star in order to incinerate an enemy shipyard. JEREMY: .... .... .... .... WORF: I was also almost married once before that. JEREMY: Oh? WORF: Yes, but she's dead as well. She was violently beaten to death by one of my political opponents. JEREMY: I, uh, assume you got revenge for her as well. WORF: Indeed. I personally buried my ten-generations-old family sword into the petQ's chest. It was glorious. JEREMY: Uhhhhhhhhhhhhh. WORF: What? JEREMY: Nevermind. Do you at least have any children I could get to know? WORF: One son, but I'm ashamed to admit it. JEREMY: Why? What's wrong this time? WORF: He shamed me by not becoming a warrior. JEREMY: Oh, so he's not like you then? Where is he now? WORF: He eventually did join the Klingon military. But he is a pitiful excuse of a solider, a laughing-stock. JEREMY: And that's bad? WORF: It's so horrible I haven't tried to contact him since he was sent away to fight in a total war against the second-most deadly enemy we've ever encountered. JEREMY: Captain Picard, sir; Counselor Troi - I think I'm going to go with this alien lady instead. PICARD: Yes, that's probably for the best.

[@IshikawaGoemon]

Hmm.... The Box is neither good or bad, it's a tool. It has its uses that can make stories great, but if you use it improperly, it doesn't work. It can be used when you look at Federation from the outside looking in. Another good way to use it is with a fresh Cadet on his first assignment and starship. He or she will undoubtedly start with that picture of paradise. The longer the Cadet serves, the more he/she sees outside the box, and the more you can write outside it. They also use the holosuite as a coping mechanism on DS9. It's Only a Paper Moon. That's one I look forward to when we get there.

[@DrZaius3141]

It's good to have an idealistic fantasy about where humans can one day be in terms of their maturity (if you allow that term), but at the same time it bars one from exploring those themes. To help actual humans getting there. I feel that "the Box" should not be a box but more layered. Like the Roddenberry onion or something. In the very center you have concepts that should be simply gone by the 24th century, like racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, etc. Portraying a setting where people don't even question the presence of diverse people showcases that ideal without making it an active theme. Think about racial diversity in TOS - it was apparent obvious without anyone ever going there and saying "Hey Kirk, don't you think it's great that we have so many different skin colours on the bridge?" - "Yes. I. ... ... trulyfeelthat. This. Speaks. Verywellforusasa. ... Species." At the same time there are concepts we would like to get rid off in the future but should be aware that it won't be as easy, and those should be adressed head on, and not locked away - talking about things like jealousy, grief, anger, greed, religious zealousy, and so on. It's ignorant to believe those aspects of humanity to ever go away fully and it also devalues the individual battle with them. Worf is very much about controlling his anger, Riker sometimes fights with jealousy regarding Troi. It's the fact that those things don't just vanish but are a constant hurdle for people trying to become better which is the remarkable thing. Getting better is tougher than being perfect in a perfect society. Long essay short: Some things belong in the box, but most things are dealt with more interestingly when put outside and looked at thouroughly.

[@tubeviewerX20]

I don’t ever recall seeing transsexuals in Star Trek, but that would make one interesting episode, huh?

[@stanleyjedrzejczyk2966]

@@tubeviewerX20 Read a 1978 novel called 'Star Trek: The New Voyages #2': 'The Procrustean Petard' by Sondra Marshak and Myrna Culbreath. Intresting, indeed! 😱

[@vesuvanprincess]

I see the box pretty much as it ended up being applied: a good starting point. I feel like the box lead to a proper set up for the setting but quickly outgrew its usefulness. I'm glad they had it early on and I'm equally glad they discarded it later.

[@JayTohab]

I feel like the "box" was created to prevent a lot of conventional drama of the time period; there are shows with people who go insane over their grief, so the box tries to exclude that because it doesn't showcase the best of humanity. There are shows where court dramas destroy the lives of those who can't keep up, so the box excludes that because it doesn't reflect society well. Death Note's writer had a similar concern in his work; he avoided "human drama" whenever possible because it distracted from the more interesting story. I think it's a decent idea, but one easily abused when you want things to align perfectly for several seasons.

[@alano1724]

Crusher might not take any action, but at least she's acting in the full traditions of Star Fleet Medical. We have a theory that Bones was a Con man who talked his way into a cushy job in sick Bay. Man does next to no actual Doctoring, just pronouncing death from half a room away. 'He's dead Jim!' 'Really? You don't want to try something?' 'Nope, he' s dead.' 'It's a half inch blade in his abdomen?!?' 'Dead!' In the episode Operation - Annihilate! where he's actually doing surgery, he downs tools half way through and wanders off, presumably leaving Chapel to sort out what he had done and close. (No wonder she was able to qualify as a Dr for the Motion Picture)

[@peggygross7409]

Just a comment, Jeremy did have living relatives. An aunt and uncle residing on Earth. It was mentioned early in the episode.

[@cjc363636]

I think GR slowly developed his 'box' in the decade plus between tos and TMP/TNG. Always seemed to me to be an explanation as to why - or what kind of people - no longer need religion. And the outcome of that thought came up with people who no longer fear death or mourn losses. Wacked out to me, to be sure. And the real problem is format overriding realities of 20th century audience expectations. If this 'box' format would've been stronger into later seasons - Roddenberry or other producers enforcing the format - TNG wouldn't be the beloved classic it's seen as today, much less worth ruminating on. I wonder if a researcher or journalist has done the deep dive research into Roddenberry interviews to determine when ST morphed from 'wagon train to the stars' to a vision of utopia. I don't think the box really existed during TOS. IMHO. Great rumination!

[@AlucardNoir]

Of course Worf reminds you of Ivanova, they have the same father.

[@tubeviewerX20]

So Gene Roddenberry wanted the characters to be emotionless androids like Data? That’s actually pretty disturbing.

[@stanleyjedrzejczyk2966]

It's called 'Communism'.

[@quicksilvertongue3248]

Man, I don't even remember this episode, like at all. I wonder if I ever even saw it. I know I didn't see your Rumination until today, because this is my first time going through your whole show in order (kind of).

[@mancilmj]

This is quite possibly your best rumination. Best Dorn performance in all of Trek and yes Jeremy should have been a consistent continuity factor. Clearly the writers realized this and conjured Alexander. Why did Jeremy and Alexander never meet? That would be epic.

[@Spartanj42]

The box is a framework that forms the building blocks of Star Trek. TNG used it to good and bad effect, but it did establish what Star Trek was started to be about, but of course deconstructing the box is way more engaging than actually following it. TLD;R The Box should be a guideline not a law.

[@paulscott2037]

Personally I think the Roddenberry box was a good idea taken too far. The idea that we would have evolved past grief for example is blatantly ridiculous. But as a starting point to build the 24th Century shows I think it was good to use and particularly on TNG as this crew was the best of the best aboard the best ship in the fleet. So they would be the ambassadors of this federation ideal of Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations and demonstrating that we don't need money or conflict or selfishness to drive us. The later shows get to build on the less perfect side of this particularly in DS9 but to my mind it was an important building block to lore. But the execs clearly used it too much in earlier seasons of TNG.

[@peggygross7409]

I don't think Jeremy went to live with Worf's parent. Troi mentions that Jeremy has a surving aunt and uncle who are residing on Earth.

[@DrCuriensapprentice]

My opinion about the Roddenberry box is that, humans are emotional, humans are flawed, etc, of course will we grieve, fight, love, hate, etc. 300 years won’t change 300k yrs of evolution

[@mr51406]

🔹Box: should be used to prevent melodrama so that Trek doesn’t turn into Dynasty. But to prevent Trek from being a “space opera” the box shouldn’t also forbid continuity. It shouldn’t curtail creativity since sci-fi is at its core an exploration of the human condition, one of which is grief. 🔸The lack of continuity leads me to this sarcastic comment: On Endicronimas V, next to “The Farm” (LD: Much Ado…), is “The School” where Mirasta (1st Contact) is teaching Jeremy, Timothy (Hero Worship), Alexander Rozhenko… living with other continuity refugees. 😜

[@kevanos4636]

I think that if they had gone with the original concept, this could have been one of the best episodes of the series. Also, If you aren't feeling well, take an aspirin and rest.

[@nathanschultz5538]

I really hope you plan on covering Battlestar Gallactica someday too.

[@andrewnetardus801]

With the music... You gotta remember that the composers were being instructed to dumb down the scores. When you restrict the creativity of a composer you're gonna get wallpaper dressing.

[@sharkdentures3247]

I would (probably) NEVER use the term "pretentious". BUT IF that term is accurate. .. . I like the pretention. :) It makes your videos feel more thoughtful, or "thought through".

[@Yura-Sensei]

Could you do a Rumination on Aesop Rock - Ruby '81 song? THANKS!

[@RedGeist]

I've felt the Roddenberry box was restrictive, but I think the worst aspect of it was how poor communicated it was to the audience. You'd have to watch almost all of Star Trek across the decades to even make assumptions about what the Roddenberry Box is. It's never explicitly explained in full in-universe despite being a foundation of the lore and the storytelling within Star Trek. People in early Trek act oddly from the perspective of the audience because the box exists, but the box is not explained as "the rules", which they are. Do I think it's a bad idea? For the most part, I like the idea of an idyllic future for humanity. But I think it would be far more impressive world building to have the Box as a goal we strive for in life, rather than it being this sort of cage for sometimes boring stories which limit potential narratives.

[@harpercole5321]

Never been a favourite episode of mine, perhaps because of the grim subject matter. It's not a topic I enjoy facing up to. Also I don't tend to enjoy heavily guest-star centred episodes as much. Interesting thoughts though, you make me want to take another look at it. The quieter, holodeck-based original concept would probably have been better, yes.

[@jani11]

1. i hope your headache is cured but i know this is recorded in advance so you must be fine :) 2. Jeremy spoooke iiin claaass todaaay (too invested in Pearl Jam currently, sorry) 3. Why is Jeremy written with IQ below the room temperature? He never doubts the alien energy and the illusion, his primal (secondary?) instincts never even kick in, something is uncanny as hell and he just accepts it and goes with "her"? What?! Why?! I once even considered Jeremy being an alien as a plot point. The whole episode collapses because of that - in my humble opinion. Edit: even 3 year old babies sense that something is "off" sometimes, Jeremy is 12! Geez.

[@1300l]

I don't mind the "Roddenberry Box". It's a different show than others, it's his vision. In the end, every one compromise, even Roddenberry. Also in my opinion, without the "box", Star Trek only got worse and contradictory. Not that it is an absolute good, some times it's restricting to writing. But that's how TNG is. I like it, that's why i don't like ENT, STD, VOY and even DS9. I like this is the only show that man kind is idealistic good. I know we wont be there, but i like it. It strike a note on my self to feel good when i watch TNG. Specially early TNG. But then again.. i'm the guy who hate most episodes that every one love, such as Yesterday Enterprise, i find Best of Both worlds kind of a meh episode too. But i love Pen Palls on the other hand. Now about that episode.. It has some stuff i like, such as the brotherhood also how every one deals with death. I don't care about how it was hard to Roddenberry and the writers to find a middle ground of what they want, i care about the result and i like how it end up being. But.. what i hate the most on that episode that make me avoid to watch it is how it kind of feel like a Days of our Life soap opera drama.

[@WolfestoneManor]

It's also Moore's entrance into writing a mediocre Mission Impossible movie. Lol. MI:2 isn't bad, it's just nothing great.

[@SchneeflockeMonsoon]

The Roddenberry Box… Well, I think the only thing I can say I like about it is that it *is* what makes Trek unique. Because in Trek: Humans have grown. Let’s name some other sci-fi to compare. Dune: Humans have supposedly genetically evolved, but they act like feudal-era humans. Star Wars: Humans are like any other humans. Even Jedi. Babylon 5: Humans act like modern humans. Stargate: Humans *are* modern humans or are pre-industrial cultures. Halo: Humans might be genetically engineered, but they’re just like the rest of us. Mass Effect: Humans are just as horny and dumb as ever. They just have new bed-mates. Battlestar Galactica reboot: Humans are worse than irl humans. But not Star Trek. There: humans have evolved as a people. Not genetically, not even necessarily culturally, but socially. They treat one another with respect just on habit. They try to avoid wars or battles because they consider themselves responsible for their actions. They don’t kill unless they’re unable to find another solution. They have patience. They have the will to explore every nook and cranny of the universe. They have the skills to be peacemakers. They are unique not because of any technology or mentality, but because they’re so generic and baseline to everything else out there: they could serve as common ground to form an alliance. *An* alliance, just the one. But that one was enough to bring in another group. And then another. And then those four got another few friends. Humans aren’t the top of the food chain, they’re in the top 50 at best, and only if they’re included with the 500 other races they’ve allied with. But the other powers out there who are on par or above? They’ve been conquering or exterminating and expanding their way out for hundreds of years prior to Humans getting on the field, and they’re falling behind. It gives a sense that humans found the x^2 option. They started out way slower than everybody else; but that patience paid off in the end, and still is. Is the Box too constricting? Absolutely. Does the idea contained at its core have merit? Just as firmly: I say yes.

[@rpra6435]

About „Roddenberry’s Box concept in Star Trek tv series and films” … This is very interesting thing to talk about, i only hope my limited English knowledge will allow me to say properly what i really think. Also, allow me to say that i am very big fun of your work and no matter what you say (i mean if i agree with you or not) i am always interested to hear your way of thinking about episodes and films from that super Star Trek world that we both like. To the point … I fully disagree with you on that element. First - what i think about it. This is very good, very interesting and too … futuristic for us. Let me explain. Star Trek world become a reality in television (later in films) in 1960s and is alive up to our Times. I am commenting your video in 2018 so this is over 50 years then Star Trek world is alive and well. Please, analize how much people changed from 1900 to 2018 - for example women and their way of thinking. In 1900 it was natural for them not to work at all and be less important partner in community with men, being mostly kitchen worker, machine to satisfy men’s sexual desires (not in reverse in that Times), not being able to vote. Now, in 2018 - this kind of thinking is beyond ridicoulus for them to accept. We live in reality in which many of women are not interested in having community with men at all. Seeing that - i am open to accept possibility that all that Roddenberry Box consists will be just reality in XXIV - XXV century. This will be reality like planes or phones with no cable are for us. I always ask my mother if her grandmother (which she knew as a child) would accept phone with no cable like normal thing and not asking medical help for someone who say that phones could work with no cable !! Think about this … First additionally - i also think that Star Trek Roddeberry box versus rest od Star Trek it just like first one is seeing what people WILL BE AFTER COUPLE CENTURIES versus what people are now (XX and XXI century) just in futuristic costume nothing else. The best example of that is Deep Space Nine which is XX century people in futuristic costumes with no „Roddebberry’s Box element at all”. First additionally numer 2 - I think that - we need to face that reality - we are people from XX / XXI century and Roddenberry’s Box version of that show is just too futuristic for us to like it and accept that. This is why this is for you as you said „stupid”. I accept that as you are viewer from XX / XXI century … Second - why Roddenberry „created” „Roddenberry’s Box”… I accept that many of you will laugh about that what i will now say but … i was always thinking … why Roddenbbery created „his box” at all. It could be explained that he was told by government or aliens themselves to add to his show element that will push people to think in new ways also in terms of mental state of mind - using tv series as way to say to people that evolved beings are really „evolved” in many ways and push people to think maybe we can be that evolved too ... I was always open to that possibility. It would explain why he was soo interested to defend his vision in that show. He wanted not to create our reality in futuristic costumes but really show about beings from XXIV / XXV century. But … he was too Ahead of Times with that and maybe he was not allow to explain real motives behind his box … Think about that - if aliens really exist and travel in Galaxy they cannot be soo mentally limited, shortminded and egoistic as we are …

[@athrunzala6919]

The Box O Kay, warp drive, phasers etc -- Science Fiction The Social stuff, "We have evolved beyond that" -- Fantasy We the human race suffer from something I have always referred to as the "Sin of Complacency", as time goes by we get use to some change and then ignore it, whether it's just us or it takes a generation, society gets complacent. Roddenberry thinks that discovering the stars and exploring them would make humanity better. No, the Age of Sail didn't do anything like that for Europe when the Americas were discovered. The same would be true for space exploration, Armstrong walks on the Moon, national hero; now, who cares? Most people don't want NASA to bother with Mars. Cochrane achieves warp speed, humanity would be excited for a generation or two and then the children growing up with that being the norm would not care, they didn't understand the world that was before that so they would not take it to hart the same way. Kids today take tech for granted, my Nephew said to my face "Wikipedia's too much of a hassle, it takes too long". I grew up in the 90's, I'd have killed for it back then. So on Star Trek in the first few seasons where Humanity is perfect because we overcame our differences. No we didn't, it's still too unbelievable to watch some of that. Jeremy Aster would still grieve, LaForge would get pissed about his Visor sometimes, Riker would get tired of Data's not understanding ANYTHING the plot needs him to be ignorant of and Dr Crusher would be smacking Wesley upside the head telling him to stop starring at Troi's ass. The Box enforces Fantasy level standards onto a Science Fiction show. Roddenberry wanted a professional environment where co-workers didn't fight or have conflict, you can do that without the fantasy element of being perfect, we have that now in a lot of work places.

[@stanleyjedrzejczyk2966]

'Captain, the Xenomorph's are killing the most of the crew and cocooning the rest, after implanting their stomachs with chest-bursting parasites!'-'What are you sensing from them, Counselor?'= The Roddenberry 'Box'! 😱

[@stanislavkostarnov2157]

any Star-Trek that does not conform to the setting put forth in the "Roddenberry box" is sort of "stolen valor" by me... a writer has the right to set up perimeters around his universe of what cannot be done, the fact is, Star Trek is stolen from Roddenberry... did not stop it from continuing to be good, but that does taint later Trek somewhat, and is why I consider DS9 not to be fully Trek, and definitely not the contemporary stuff outside of LowerDecks Disco-Trek, Picard etc. went too far from what is "The Roddenberry ideal" to remain part of the franchise.

[@FRACTUREDVISIONmusic]

The Rodenberry Box is the ballast, that allows Star Trek to work against, that makes for the best episodes often. That box, is the Ideal, the Episode, is the prodding, jabbing, the pulling the stretching, of the R Box relative to the elements within the episode. Without the Rodenberry Box, there really can't be Star Trek, for even when it's it ignored, the R Box looms in shadow always, defining edge that is the lines being crossed.