Star Trek The Next Generation Ruminations S5E13: The Masterpiece Society

[@francoislacombe9071]

Those people were basically dead men walking. They were unable to adapt to changing circumstances, and circumstances were bound to change at some point because that's something reality is very good at. It was a dead end experiment from the start.

[@dmclegg66]

Right, that's what I said they were on a dead-end road from the start. Adapt or die that's life.

[@JanetDax]

Picard's lament at the end is stupid. Societies die when they can no longer adapt and innovate. I think of Conner's world the same way I think of a house that is too fragile for you actually live in.

[@EnvisionerWill]

In my opinion, Geordi's mention about how he came up with the answer doesn't come even close to saying "suck it"; I thought he was pretty cool and dry about it. I like it as a simple Aesop; it's a bit cliché, the kind of thing you'd put in a kids' show, but certainly not in a BAD kid's show; I think it's perfectly fine.

[@EnvisionerWill]

"Woo, eugenics, that's cool, I'm with it." - the ultimate quotemine from our dear Lorerunner ROFLMAO.

[@alexyoon-sungcucina7895]

"Subvert expectations" Well we know when Lore filmed this!

[@AlucardNoir]

The prime directive refers to species not nations of a certain species. Riker was technically right.

[@JanetDax]

The masterpiece Society makes me think of a beautiful home with beautiful things where no one can actually live in it because that would ruin the beautiful things. Martin is nothing but an alarm that goes off when someone enters the beautiful things room, say a workman who comes to repair the roof. The problem with the end of this episode is Picard, seemingly puts on his "prime directive pants." and concludes it somehow may have been better than to let the people die. HUH?

[@corssecurity]

That's my mother's living room. No one was allowed in.

[@harrypothead42024]

So are you saying if I'm plugged into a system without my say-so, and then I want to leave, that it may be immoral for me to leave because the system will break down without me? That argument would force me to leave the system.

[@wangbot47]

I would agree that that is a major problem with the education system, but I think even worse is the political indoctrination. School should teach you how to think, not what to think

[@iseeundeadpeople9]

They do that. Rethugs have a problem with that.

[@rmsgrey]

Individual freedom of choice is a worthy goal, but, when you can't ask someone's opinion, you have to make a choice for them. It's a good default to do whatever preserves their freedom of choice for when they are able to make and communicate their decision, but it's not always practical - this episode's example of genetic modification is one such case - by the time someone is in a position to give their opinion, it's too late to modify their genetics (or, at least, too late to modify their phenotype) in a large-scale manner. The thing is, in such situations, if the technology is there to make the changes, then choosing not to use it is also a choice. Choosing not to perform a routine scan for genetic defects early in pregnancy, and/or choosing not to treat them once discovered, is just as much a choice as choosing not to vaccinate, or choosing not to treat someone who's ill - leaving it to "nature" or "chance" or "fate" or "God" is no better an argument when it comes to an unborn child's genetics than it is when it comes to whether to give medical assistance to someone who's unconscious...

[@DrownedInExile]

I enjoyed this episode back in the day. I agree the science/physics part was well done. The ony preaching I had a problem with, was Picard at the end. Bringing up the PD was dumb. This little society was a ship in a bottle, facing an earthquake. They were on borrowed time.

[@MrTheSlimJim]

Actually, there is an apprentice system in my country. For example, you want to be baker. You go out, find a bakery that hires you and you learn from them (at least one person there needs a permission to teach). Additionally you go to school once a week, learning the theory of your craft. After 3 years, there is an exam to see if you learned enough, if you pass you get your degree in your field.

[@EnvisionerWill]

France and Australia are at war, Alaska is a country instead of a state - you're coming up with a great Harry Turtledove thing here, @Lorerunner!

[@stanislavkostarnov2157]

the sad fact with such a crafted society, is that for it to be stable to changes it had to be closer to actual husbandry style farming... that is, you have to start with an unsustainable surplus and than cull those that are "unnecessary" in the actual circumstance (usually that will take the form of criminalizing the unnecessary strata's through some kind of a Purge to make it less traumatic for the rest of the social structure)... a planned society controlled in such a way does have some form of practical & social rigidity, until the image of perfection collapses due to built up error at least...

[@EnvisionerWill]

Pretty sure you're flat wrong about the Prime Directive point, because the point of the Prime Directive was to ensure that the Federation (which, for all that it contains hundreds of species, was founded by humans and Vulcans, and is still pretty much 50% humans, 30% Vulcans, and 20% everyone else, just to pull some vaguely fitting numbers out of my hat) did not go around messing with OTHER alien races. Has there ever been a case of the Prime Directive being invoked with regard to actual Humans from Earth (as opposed to suspiciously humanlike aliens from all those miraculously "Earth-like" planets in the Original Series)? Or with Vulcans for that matter? It's not there to protect "societies", it's there to protect "species-es". An offshoot of Earth culture would not be protected by the Prime Directive, nor even by the Non-Interference Directive (yes those are different things), as best I understand them. Feel free to cite a source that disagrees with me; I'm bad at knowing where my knowledge comes from, so I'm just going to assert what I believe to be true, according to the synthesis of everything I've learned over time.)

[@najex1]

Yea. With a preachy episode like this, I often find myself arguing for the other side. Like, when Georgie up the point of his vizer, and necessity being the mother of invention I wish the response would have. "There has been no greater motivator for technological advancement than during war. Does that mean we should be thankful for war? Is it so wrong for me to wish my children won't know hardship, even if good things might come of that hardship? Isn't it a duty of a parent to give their children the most chances to succeed at life?" Things like that.

[@Eelco_de_Boer]

Mem-summary: The Enterprise tries to save a "perfect" colony from destruction, but the assistance causes damage of its own. (They created a `perfect' but very rigid society, and the contact with the Enterprise opens them up....)

[@robotic2000k]

Sublime, as always. Thank you.

[@gcooper642]

I imagined that they were grown in a lab without the need for a womb.

[@jeandehuit5385]

I actually didn't mind that they treated eugenics as bunkum in this episode, b/c I think it's basically bunkum IRL. There's no evidence to show that you actually *could* make ppl. good at something via genetics, b/c a lot of skills are more taught than instinctive. You could probably genetically engineer basketball players. For sports; physicals activities, etc. But for more theoretical skills like mathematics, science, & music, I don't think it would be possible. B/c IRL we have no evidence that 'intelligence' is a genetic trait. Any time you get kids that appear to be as-intelligent as their parents, other factors can explain it (diet, environment, class, etc.) Assuming this even could be done (& I doubt it), who's to say anyone wants to pursue the careers their 'innate' skills make easier? Not every tall person wants to play basketball, & not everyone with a mind for politics seeks election.

[@evalramman7502]

It all depends on just how subtle and good future eugenicists are at the alteration of the brain's structures. But that won't be for many centuries, presumably.

[@Tuvok_Shakur]

totally agree with you about school systems. I had irresponsible parents that didn't teach me the things I needed to know and school ended up being useless.

[@JanetDax]

Schools don't teach children how to think. They teach conformity.

[@stanislavkostarnov2157]

@@JanetDax conformity is also a way of social thinking.... one probably more necessary for society as a whole, but, that produces bad results in overly high doses.

[@tiffanyshank8837]

I'm not sure how much I have to add to the discussion as a whole, but I really enjoyed this Rumination. I like your willingness to articulate, okay, this situation (specifically, well, if you could ask someone if he or she would want to be genetically engineered to like whatever necessary task and then be happy in it, you'd get at least some "yes" answers and that's fine; you'd also get some "no" answers and that has to do with human free will) -- and not go for the easy answers.

[@corssecurity]

Fact every time an emergency evacuation order is given someone or many someone's decides they will stay and fight to protect thier property. Thier home. Thier memories. Mom, Dad, grandad are buried out back. Il not leaving. Fair enough. I'm not leaving so you can't leave is not fair. I can think of no way to contact another person or animal without having some effect on them. What are you? Who are you? I never imagined that colour or why do you wear those shiny things on your face? No intentional cultural contamination required. Shoes? What are shoes and what terrible accident caused your feet to fall off?

[@user-hi4sm3ig5j]

21:26 One of my favourite examples of that is in the second Hitchcock's Guide novel where an animal is bred to enjoy being food. Obviously not to create a serious discussion in some sci-fi though.

[@stanislavkostarnov2157]

you mean "The Restaurant at the End of the Universe"... right???

[@jeffreymiller9438]

I think you have to ask the question 'What is the purpose of your formal education?' Lorerunner, like many, seems to believe the purpose is to provide a 'work permit'..a piece of paper allowing you to work in a specific area. There is a more subtle side to education, in that one purpose, not often discussed, is for it to result in a better, broader, more well-rounded Human Being. There's a value to the study of some things, inherent in itself, not just to provide a door to a career. Lorerunner would probably be more comfortable in the German Education system, which stresses vocational training at an earlier age. In the US, most vocational training occurs after Secondary Education is completed. As far as this episode goes, it struck me as having a slightly superficial feel. Kind of dull. Should have been more of an emphasis on intrigue rather than over emphasis on the love angle.

[@stanislavkostarnov2157]

I actually have viewed much of my education as an exercise with it's own esoteric value, choosing my places of education accordingly.... however, I have had a background that gave me the safety net to have that luxury. I can easily see how any well roundedness an education might give will be convoluted by the misfittedness a person may have upon entering society, leading to the formation of a negative or a socially destructive character from that same platform of "education".

[@grantlloyd9131]

Can I just say as someone who was born with special needs (Nothing too serious) I have always not liked the planet in this episode.

[@mr51406]

Finally rewatched. Meh. Romance: when he says “I love you” he really means “you make me horny.” That is a very temporary emotion. I give it a week… We’ve already done the “planned model ideal autonomous utopian society” plot in “Symbiosis”, “Up the long ladder” and “Ensigns of Command.” Arguably in “When the bough breaks” and the “Justice” planet too. There will be many, many more variations on this concept/trope in Trek and the other shows. Logan’s Run for example. It’s also a concept in westerns. Many towns in the US were founded as little Utopias. Utah is arguably a planned society for Mormons. So it’s inevitable that the theme would be passed down to the successor to westerns, the science fantasy shows. But back on Earth, planned communities are either actually just another boring suburb (Milton Keynes) or questionable investment schemes for hippies with too much money (Biosphere2 & Teravalis, AZ). Even when they’re successful they inevitably run away from the intentions of the founders because a place has to evolve naturally. At very worst, artificial places whose founders were control freaks with dubious intentions will fail and you get tragedies like Jonestown or what almost happened here if the Enterprise hadn’t fortuitously passed by with sensors on. This was supposed to be a short comment… Credit to Lore for stimulating my ideas. The rumination was a zillion times more interesting than the episode.

[@radioflyer68911]

22:35 The genome is complex beyond belief. There's vast amounts of information in the genome and we've barely scratched the surface on how much is in there. All the documents humanity has ever written to this point could probably fit in there with room to spare. It would be a monumental effort but conceivably if one reprogrammed the genome a "masterpiece society"could be created from the ground up beginning from a programmed assembly of molecules. Something I'd expect of the beings SG-1 called the Asgard would probably have done in the attempt to save their race from genomic entropy. In fact that's our race's problem too. Each successive generation adds mutations(errors) to the next until at some point the accumulation of more and more diseases will be so great the race cannot continue. So don't make any plans beyond 2328. Yeah, the human race has a built in shelf life.

[@athrunzala6919]

I don't know if it's true, but I remember hearing at the time it aired that the main guest star was Marina Sirtis's real life husband, I thin that was the only reason I was excited to watch it. The Geordi parts were batter though. Thinking back on it and parts of what you said make think back on a failed sci-fi series called "Ascension" back in 2014 or something. That failed show was better than this episode, the twist really hooked me.

[@nicholassterling8483]

This episode is worth comparing to _The Ensigns of Command_ and _Homeward_. Nick :-)

[@EnvisionerWill]

I'm surprised that you would actually say there's no way to poll the unborn. This is Star Trek, we have TIME TRAVEL. It absolutely is possible to ask someone whether they would have liked to be genetically engineered; you just go forward in time, ask their hypothetical future self, and then hop back to your starting point and make the decision based on that.

[@Jokie155]

But at that point, all you're doing is seeing what was done all along. Either they had the modification or they didn't. And if you then go against what was decided at the time to 'fix' an incorrect decision, you've altered the future you went to visit anyway which built up all those decisions and happenings leading to the conclusion. It can so very easily just flip over to the decision being seen as incorrect all over again.

[@KnightRaymund]

I remember this episode being... ok. Personally I'm ok with Geordi gloating a little about being saved by a man they'd have terminated.

[@rebeccaw6253]

“why is he kicking?” lol check out the G series from Radiolab podcast for convos on intelligence, history, and one or 2 on eugenics.

[@brianstraight9308]

The bleech part of this episode for me is the bit between Picard and Troi in the turbolift. It's just dumb. As pointless and cliché as the romance-of-the-week thing is it's something that happens frequently. It happens with Troi and she has this partial break-down in turbolift with Picard where she feels compelled to tell him about the romance. How many times did Riker do this? It just feels like its there simply because Troi is a woman so, I guess, she's supposed to be more ashamed of having this little fling? Like you said, Picard is just standing there thinking, "Why are you telling me this? It doesn't matter and I don't care."

[@robertmartinu8803]

Ad Transporter: you could avoid much of the issues by using a concept akin to the displacers from "The Culture". Still ultra tech, less undefined behavior (for the C/C++ developers). And somehow ironic considering the rest of the cultureverse to use their stuff to avoid unintended consequences of technology.

[@harpercole5321]

Interesting thoughts, thanks. The episode itself doesn't do much with its potential. They don't really show any positive sides to the society that might make the social damage done to it seem a shame. I guess the Troi romance was further the theme of contagion, so it's fairly relevant in that way. Wasn't given enough screen time to be plausible though.

[@nickokona6849]

So, the tone and feel I got from this episode reminds me of The Price and Meridian. Flight may and flat sort of romance angle with a mostly dull guest character. The dialog was pretty vapid in all three. Also, eugenics is supposedly to improve the human species through breeding. How is it an improvement if their entire society can be disrupted just through contact with the outside world? Seems to me they’ve been significantly diminished in capability. I think this concept was more well explored in Andromeda. How often do you get to say that? This plot was also basically the same as The Ensigns of Command.

[@stanislavkostarnov2157]

the thing is though they fully have a right for freedom... make no mistake, because of the nature of who they are and their vitalness to their community/nation/planet/species, those asylum seekers are traitors and deserters, and taking them onto the ship as refugees, was, in universe, totally equal to an act of war against the said colony... whether that war is justified (see various liberation & regime change campaigns through history) is a question I would leave open... however, those are the stakes... effectively, Picard is acting as an aggressor here.

[@Tuvok_Shakur]

Now that I'm thinking about it, I'd give it 6 out of 10

[@zuzoscorner]

Well they were agianst a neutron star...so pretty deadly even the star getting anywhere clseo the solar system woudl cause havoc.

[@Neoxenok]

Controversial? Eugenics? Perish the thought.

[@EnvisionerWill]

Incidentally, in case it's not already clear, I've been waiting a really long time for you to get to this episode. Very eager to hear what you have to say in the Spoilers section, assuming you do one at all (if not, I'll be sad).

[@grantlloyd9131]

23:57 - So would I.

[@SchneeflockeMonsoon]

I honestly think this episode is fine, but easily skippable. They didn’t really explore anything unique, and everyone sounds like they’re just promoting their party lines. They’re caricatures. “The Prime Directive should have been followed.” “I want to go but I can’t for my people.” “I have to go because my eyes have been opened.” “My disability was what saved your world.” It’s just all so… coincidentally perfect. It feels fraudulent.

[@EnvisionerWill]

I'm of the opinion that breeding a person to like manual labor is ethically perfectly fine; society doesn't have an obligation to offer you a total freedom of choice. Indeed, there's a lot of evidence that having too many choices can be a source of anxiety; obviously, I don't believe we should have NO choices at all, but a degree of steering would be perfectly fine. The bottom point is, society DOES need to have some people do manual labor; I would rather that those people had been pointed toward that career their entire life, or even before their birth, so that they'd be content in the role that had been prepared for them. IMO most of the misery in the world comes from people being forced into a situation that they've never learned how to deal with, rather than forced into a situation that they were prepared for very well, and then deciding they'd rather piss off and do some random other thing because reasons.

[@milamila1123]

Yeah, the education system's crap.

[@Deysh3]

The problems with fictional engineered societies how much engineered the society is. Like I have a cousin who according to what he is good at and excels is math but went in to law because he doesn't like to work with math despite him being excellent at it. Imho these kind of societies do have merits since we all need guidance at some point in our life but the issues arises when people don't want to comply with the society or people find out that the powers that be have been closing, opening or smashing doors behind the curtains and then existential panic happens

[@EnvisionerWill]

This episode always felt to me weirdly Season 2-ish in its conception. In fact, looking back and forth between this and "Up the Long Ladder", they feel to me like they should have been the halves of a Season 2 two-parter, with the Masterpiece Society standing in for the crew of the Mariposa (being both genetically engineered superhumans AND clones, since it stands to reason that the technology which can achieve one of those things probably could achieve the other, and they have a lot of reason to feed into each other.).Note that unlike Lore, who Lamented UtLL, I actually consider it a legitimately decent episode, one that I actively like, and would never for one moment consider bad, unlike Code of Honor (which I do like, but acknowledge is bad) or Star Trek Nemesis (which I don't like as a whole, but which contains about five things that I do appreciate enough to not condemn the entire work to oblivion, even if I have little interest in ever watching ALL of it again) or Shades of Gray (which is just 100% bad and I completely agree with that, but then it's a clip show and those are virtually always worthless - indeed, I think if I ever get my hands on the Season 2 DVD set, I'll watch Shades of Gray *first* just so that I don't spend the entire thing bored with the repetition, and even by that rubric, I suspect it'll be bad).

[@myram.tetteh779]

Maybe I am being mean... This episode isn't memorable for me at all.

[@tbk2010]

I actually couldn't remember having ever seen it despite having seen TNG completely several times. Same with last weeks episode.

[@EnvisionerWill]

Now, to seriously debate the point that Lore brings up here - I absolutely do see an argument for some traditions being worth dying for, at least on an individual basis. If you got caught, say, adultering in some ultra-conservative society where that's a capital crime, I could see why you might choose to die in order to exculpate your shame, since you believe that the good of society is served by the example of your death, to such an extent that you'd suffer more from choosing to live in a society where you were not killed for such an act (kind of an "I wouldn't want to be part of any club that would have me as a member" attitude). This is harder to justify when an entire society is making this choice, since they're not leaving any survivors, but if they have a sense of being part of a larger global or interstellar community, thus that they would want someone to find the ruins of their society and learn from their mistakes, it could still happen. It of course fails in this episode, because the Masterpiece Society think all other humans in the galaxy, and probably all aliens unless they are likewise perfected, are inferiors and all contact with them must be avoided, so it's hard to believe that the "let's die instead" guy had any such logic in mind. (All this ignores the more obvious possibility of why a character would oppose this plan, which is simply that he doesn't believe the planet *will* be destroyed, at least not completely and unsurvivably; he may think it's all just a trick on behalf of his leaders to push their "contact the outside" agenda for their own selfish benefit. That one seems most likely to be what the writers had in mind; the whole thing might be meant as a metaphor for climate-change denialism or whatever the 90's equivalent was.)

[@quasimodojdls]

I used to think this episode was just BORING, BORING, BORING. Now, I actively hate it. 1.) The Troi-Conor romance. Yeah.... no. Lore hits it right on the head with this one - this is possibly the worst example of "romance-of-the-week", period. Am I honestly supposed to believe that these two are in any way in love? They've known each other for one freaking scene! Add to that the fact that Conor is as bland as bland can be. This guy is the quintessential definition of vanilla. Sorry, but Troi doesn't strike me as someone who falls for generic, dull, unappealing, nondescript men. 2.) Genome Colony is despicable. Sorry, but no amount of debating its merits would change that. Everyone has their lives planned out for them, individuality is basically erased, everyone is expected to care about the group at the expense of themselves, and they do it all in the pursuit of perfection. Is this all reminding anyone of another group in Star Trek? Anybody know who I'm talking about? Oh, yeah.... the BORG!!!! Aren't these the very reasons we abhor the Borg?! At least the colony isn't forcibly assimilating people into its little collective but all the other aspects of the Borg Collective are on display. But we're supposed to think the colony might be okay because.... reasons?. 3.) Then there's the horrible, preachy ending with Picard bemoaning the Prime Directive. This scene perfectly encapsulates why the Prime Directive, or at least its application, is garbage. In the end you may have proved more dangerous to that colony than the stellar fragment ever could? Really Picard? Really?! Quick history lesson for you here, Jean-Luc.... that fragment was going to KILL them. You, on the other hand, brought about a slight cultural change. Is he honestly - HONESTLY - saying that being dead is preferable to facing the unknown?! Well, I guess Picard better put a phaser to his head before he continues his mission of seeking out the unknown. That unknown might change his culture, after all! But it's even worse when you remember this line from Picard from earlier in the episode.... "They've managed to turn a dubious scientific endeavor into dogma." That is true (that's exactly what the colony has done). But pal, that is exactly what you've done with the Prime Directive. You've elevated something that was dubious to begin with to such a level of dogma that you're honestly saying that the death of other people is preferable to its violation. Excuse me while I vomit! At least the usually chipper and upbeat LaForge (and Worf to a lessor degree) show open contempt for this detestable "masterpiece society". That's the only thing that saves the episode from Lamentation status for me. 1/10

[@EnvisionerWill]

The romance plot was mishandled as hell, but I would have loved to see this exact scenario explored from the angle which I consider correct - Troi falls in love with Mr. Bred-As-The-Perfect-Alpha-Male, because of course she does...and as the woman who was, I strongly suspect, explicitly hired onto TNG in the first place primarily for sex appeal, so many of the male (or lesbian) viewers are watching her literally begging for it, imagining ourselves as being the guy that she's swooning over - and he's DISGUSTED by her, because of her imperfect genes. And he'd name all the most obviously endearing and desirable features of her appearance, like her wavy hair and her big, limpid eyes, and talking about these as if they were giant hairy moles on her chin. That would be such an incredible gut-punch to the audience; it would have been right up there with the ending of Best of Both Worlds pt 1! Back when I first saw this episode, of course, assuming I ever did, I would never have thought of this stuff, but from my current perspective, that would have been the entire point of this episode, and the "save the planet" plot would have been a totally irrelevant background story that we'd never once focus on, because all our attention would have been focused on Troi's heartbreak and her attempt to persuade this guy that she really is worthy of his love.

[@maflipse]

I feel like this is like a C+ episode, maybe a B- if being generous. It’s not horrible and has some interesting concepts, but in the end it’s all just kinda meh.

[@user-hi4sm3ig5j]

Worst episode ever...Humpty Dumpty isn't an egg, why does everyone think Humpty Dumpty is an egg?

[@radioflyer68911]

It was boring.