Star Trek The Next Generation Ruminations S5E16: Ethics

[@Vandalia1998]

This was the Random Episode I watched on night back in the early 90s I watched one night when I was bored that got me into star trek

[@francoislacombe9071]

On the medical side of things, in the Star Trek universe in general, I've always thought that things are insanely inconsistent. For instance, in Star Trek: The Voyage Home, we see McCoy give ONE pill to a patient who then quickly, I mean within MINUTES, grows a new kidney to replace the ones she lost to disease. That's something out of what must basically be a 23rd century first aid kit. And yet, 24th century medecine can't routinely regenerate spinal chord nerves, something we are working on RIGHT NOW with some success in the 21st century? For me, that sort of medical inconsistency (and it's all over Star Trek) stretches credulity far beyond the breaking point.

[@KnightRaymund]

I mean, that pill was always pretty BS.

[@frankharzer6224]

You forget that the problem is not repairing spinal cord nerves but repairing Klingon spinal cord nerves. Klingons simlply never bothered to research that, because they always commit suicide when they have problems there.

[@MichaelEKaz]

I hadn't realized how much I would have liked to see more of Worf and Riker's relationship until you had mentioned it. Now I do wish we could have had more of that. Riker is strong enough (mentally and emotionally) to work well with Worf's own very strong personality.

[@mattthericker]

The Enterprise has some OSHA violations.

[@athrunzala6919]

The force field to hold everything in wasn't activated yet;)

[@hughsmith7504]

@@athrunzala6919 I was to be installed on Tuesday.

[@Scottlp2]

What, they violated his privacy as they did the experimental surgery?

[@quasimodojdls]

Agreed that presentation issues drag down what is otherwise an excellent episode. I would be fully onboard with Dr. Russell if the presentation was slightly different. One way would be to show the crewman she "experiments" on in the shuttle bay consenting to her procedure. If he had known all the risks and still decided to take the risk, then okay. But, instead, we never get that scene, which just makes Russell look like a quack. Another way would have been to show her as so compassionate and concerned about patients lives that the bureaucratic delays in the research field deeply trouble her - something like a single line of dialogue like "while bureaucrats in comfortable offices deliberate, people are dying!" would be sufficient. Crusher's presentation really suffers as well. While I personally agree with her (suicide isn't the way I would go if I were in Worf's shoes), she is WAY too adamant in her stance, especially when she tells Picard that she'll gladly keep Worf locked in Sickbay for an indeterminate time. So much for "first do no harm"! She'll never "physically" harm him, but will subject him to forcible imprisonment for being a thought-criminal. Again, if Worf knows all the risks and chooses to take that risk, it should be his decision to make, not hers; it is, after HIS life. Still, however, an excellent episode with great characterizations for just about everyone involved and an interesting, if flawed, examination of a controversial topic. 8/10

[@athrunzala6919]

Also "Cyborg Worf" is in the Disney "Gargoyles" cartoon series in like 95. Dorn did the voice of the Mecha Gargolye that Johnathan Frakes had made. Spinner, Sirits and Kate Mulgrew also had voice work in that show.

[@nefdsnet]

Definitely a show for Lore.

[@EnvisionerWill]

Add "Twat" to the list of words I never thought I'd hear The Lorerunner say....

[@dreamwhisperer2340]

good rumination. always a treat to listen to your analysis, Lore.

[@TheRealityJack]

I love your videos, they are the highlight of my every week. I don't know what I'd do without your ruminations.

[@mr51406]

“Dr Russell”: hommage to Space: 1999? The CMO of Moonbase Alpha had that name, played by Barbara Bain. But the character was very much more like Dr Crusher. Same relationship with the commander too.

[@harpercole5321]

I guess they felt compelled to put the "Worf dies" bit in to give the final act some punch. A little transparent, but they acted it well enough. Really good characterisation of Worf, Crusher, Picard, Riker. It's a strong episode, despite the occasional misfire.

[@mykin3945]

Cyborg Worf. Yes. Just yes.

[@da3daluz]

Head canon for the barrels: they are normally under a containment field, but it was deactivated so they could find the leak.

[@hughsmith7504]

1. Cyborg Worf would be cool, especially if it was found out that some of the borg tech removed from Picard had been used. 2. I have been one suicide watch twice while in the service, both times the person pulled through, but only because the Docs were convinced to let them out under "our" observation, and 3. The shouting match between Riker and Worf should have been left in.

[@TroyeMB]

ah -- so *now* I understand why you appreciate Hoothor so much, Lore...

[@tylisirn]

One thing I like about this episode is that there is no right answer. I very much understand Worf, I very much understand Dr Crusher, and I do understand Dr Russel. Of the three Dr Russel is definitely in the wrong. But sometimes the wrong thing that should in no way be acceptable is the right thing to do. In my own case there are two things where I would very much consider my life to be over and would rather be dead. Losing my vision, and losing the fine motor control of my fingers. Everything, *everything* I like and want to do in life requires both. If there was a treatment that would have 90% chance to give me 10% of the use back, no. That would not be enough. But if there was something that had even just 10% chance to give me 90% of the use back, but 90% risk of killing me, I would choose that any day, because the alternative is that I would be 100% good as dead anyway.

[@1300l]

In my opinion, another TNG episode that is so melodramatic that it feels more as a Spanish Soap Opera.

[@SchneeflockeMonsoon]

So, two years ago I put a comment here for no reason other than my convenience, which was dumb. I beg your forgiveness for asking stupid questions when this episode and your rumination deserve far better. This episode is one I find engaging. The discussions, the emotions, the top-notch acting on display. It’s all great. Crusher and her rival are eh, but I find the idea of someone in Starfleet who’s just so acclimated to the environment of “chill” during the golden era that she literally treats all rules as suggestions: fascinating. I’m shocked we don’t see more innocently arrogant people.

[@williamozier918]

27:10. I always thought Supernatural nailed how to do episodic/arc seasons. Their basic schtick is they have the arc episodes, with monster of the week episodes in between. Here's the brilliant part; whenever they need filler to pad out an episode, they just pad it out with the characters talking about the plot and how its unresolved and the dangling plot threads, then the episode ends. This way it makes it feel like each season is a full arc even though the arc is actually only four episodes total.

[@jimschuler8830]

The unsecured barrels are even more absurd when you remember gravity on the Enterprise is artificial and its vector is arbitrary.

[@sarahlamoureux1454]

You compared this episode's "dirty research" problem with that in "Nothing Human" from Voyager. The issues are different to me. Here, Dr. Russell is currently causing harm (with regards to the patient who died), and the question is whether or not that's acceptable. Crell Moset's research, at least the parts in Voyager's datebase, was already over. The question is not whether he should have stopped, but whether the Voyager crew should still use his findings.

[@Eelco_de_Boer]

Mem-summary: After Worf is paralyzed by a freak accident, his only hope may be a visiting doctor with questionable medical ethics.

[@jamespepper8671]

This doctor was nothing compared to the doctors involved in the nuclear experiments including injecting people with plutonium without telling them and the nuclear tests which were a big topic at the time that lead to congressional hearings in the Clinton Administration. so this topic of testing on humans was a huge thing at the time of the series.

[@PerpetualTiredness]

This episode really strikes a chord with me as I am very severely physically disabled and have seriously contemplated suicide. As a sci-fi episode it only deserves a 4/10 but with it's philosophical value it's a 7 maybe an 8. SF Debris also gave this a 7/10. I can't understand why Dr. Crusher was so against experimental treatment.

[@thexalon]

Also note that Troi goes through this episode without her "magic" empathy. Which improves the writing of her character. And as for the medical stuff, I have to disagree with the last scene between Crusher and Russell, where Crusher tells Russell to enjoy her laurels. I doubt that Russell killing one patient using a non-standard procedure, probably without their consent, and then directly violating the refusal of an ethics board and killing another patient but for a deus ex machina, is likely to give her anything other than a hearing to determine whether she's going to continue to have a license to practice medicine. Real-life doctors have had their medical licenses revoked for far less.

[@videogenics86]

I think this episode would've been better just ejecting the experimental treatment entirely. Now yes, it was the late 80 s early 90 s where the end of the story had to have the status quo restored. In fact I remember an English class I was in around this time and the teacher LAUDED the concept that once a story ends the status quo should be restored. Which is dumb. Anyway, the crux of this SHOULD be Worf and the dilemma he finds himself in. Personally I find it more keeping with honor NOT to take the easy way out, but having him come to that conclusion then spend the half of the episode wasted with the guest star showing him dealing with it and then pull the trick they did with Spock's blindness in Operation Annihilate with the second eyelid only with Worf's "backups" coming online so to speak which restores him. I think that would've improved the episode immensely, of course letting run for 6 or 7 episodes would've been better but in the era there is no way the suits would have gone for any of that "risky" storytelling.

[@stevemanart]

The episode should have cut from the scene with Picard and Riker going over their paper work to Dr. Crusher giving her Chief Medical Officer's log voice overing Worf in bed talking with Alexander. We don''t hear what Worf or Alexander were saying and Beverly gives an abbreviated "The procedure was long and boring, and would have failed if not for the Klingon redundant systems, but he will recover physically. I will set him up with some meetings with Dr. Troi" Also, Diana is a doctor of psychology, Why don't we ever call her Doctor? Not form an out of character Bevery is The Doctor way but in character. Its disrespectful.

[@totemictoad4691]

Yes its my first day on the enterprise im so happy,,,,,,, few hours later,,,,, oh crap I didn't secure a heavy load properly and the chief of security just got paralysed IM SO FIRED!

[@athrunzala6919]

The whole surgery is a contradiction, to remove the old spine involves cutting all the nerves and then reattaching them to the new spine, why not just reattach the damaged nerves or replace the damaged nerves in that area? New spine is overkill. Also, I always thought I heard somewhere that this episode was suppose to be a return episode for Palaski. What does everyone think about that, would she have done better in actress performance and character in the episode?

[@jakem7666]

I thought the religious side was neglected. That it's not just that Worf thinks that he will have a poor quality of life or tradition. But that since he believes this is is only way to have a honorable death and he will go to hell if he doesn't.

[@videogenics86]

That is a very valid point.

[@Jokie155]

Remember, this is Star Trek, where the case is 'a society evolving beyond superstitious beliefs is an achievement'. And hey, go look at Janeway's behaviour in 'Barge of the Dead'. "I'm not going to let you go into a coma to practise your faith, just like I wouldn't let you sacrifice babies to your god to also practise your faith."

[@DefSquadFan]

All I kept thinking was that Hillary Clinton was on Star Trek???!!!

[@EnvisionerWill]

Trekerographers unite!

[@corssecurity]

I have done suicide watch. It's such a violation of privacy. Personally had two roommates who both attempted suicide. I have to say that I more sympathetic to the one and I summoned medical help. The other one was much later and alive and mostly conscious. I didn't report it to anyone. I wasn't emotionally invested, as it was after work, and they were not a friend. Just annoyed that I had to clean up the mess.

[@zuzoscorner]

Feilds to santize the area' What does that even mean?

[@brianstraight9308]

The medical side of the episode always bugged me. A) It seems odd this is injury medical science can't yet fix. B) Earth/The Federation doesn't have the Hippocratic Oath andvethical laws? I mean everything this woman does and wants to do is highly illegal! In the scene where they're treating patients from some disaster in the cargo room, she just goes and tests some theory on a mortally wounded patient? I mean, did she explain to him his situation, what she wanted to try, the risks and chances it has, and then have him sign the right paperwork and then give it s shot? She seems to just do it! You think that's there would get her thrown in the brig waiting for trial.

[@DrownedInExile]

I did not like Crusher's attitude, she was not respecting her patient's wishes. The Riker/Worf stuff was great. Should have ended with the quack doctor facing disbarment and possible criminal prosecution. For killing the patient in the cargo bay for her research.

[@Bnio]

I'm sorry, but I cannot get over the egregious fact that Geordie looks at his opponents' cards when playing poker. He says, don't worry I only look after the hand is played. Still a huge faux pas in poker. Not letting the table know what your hand was after folding is a big part of the psychology of the game.

[@DefSquadFan]

You are right. I never thought about that.

[@Yura-Sensei]

It's frustrating when the episode tries to show "both sides" and one side is clearly idiotic, and we are suppose to relate

[@permeus2nd]

5:52 also suicide suicide suicide youtubes mishandling of coppa is dumb.

[@rheiagreenland4714]

I have to admit, the 'person on the frontier of a particular field in the federation is too zealous about their experiments and comes into ethical conflict with the crew over it' thing has kinda become a cliche in TNG that I got tired of. And we'll still get it again, in Quality of Life. Heck, not in this one, but often enough, that cliche is coupled with "and the scientist is also antagonistic towards data and doesn't see him as a person but comes to respect him at the end of the episode." It just gets tiring when it feels like they keep doing this, and it really cheapens this episode in particular because it feels like they don't do much of interest with it, to the disservice of the heavy theme of the episode, and I really just don't like this one much because of that.

[@justrobYT]

Love the moral dillema of this episode, but Star Trek never handles medical issues well. It picks and chooses what things are magically curable and what isn't with no rhyme or reason. You can give someone a new spine, but women still die from childbirth? I can never get over that.

[@kevanos4636]

The sound is muffled. This is difficult to listen to.

[@westinthewest]

I think Lore is using a cheap radio mic. Content like this is the reason why Shure, Neumann et al make microphones.