Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic 1 & 2 Vs. Joseph Campbell

[@bossgoji]

I think part of Canderous' role as Mandalore in KOTOR2 is itself the game's own internal commentary on the lasting legacy of the first game's worldview; it's not a 'regression' so much as an individual representation of KOTOR1's perspective on symbology. Canderous, whether he learns at the feet of a Light Side Revan or a Dark Side Revan, doesn't really learn any actual particular morality from it; he learns of his own mortal, human exhaustion. Your intention for the player character, in naming them, giving them a face, perhaps even building up your own identity for them, is annihilated by the plot mandate that you're ACTUALLY Revan, and so Revan is who you become. In witnessing Revan, whose supernatural destiny as an ego-obliterating savior or villain kind of just destroys their individual selfhood, what Canderous actually LEARNS is that symbols endure things that individual, fragile people cannot. He becomes Mandalore, is HANDED that mantle by a Revan now completely outside your control, to make him something both more and less than a man. The tragedy inherent to him is that this was a flawed lesson to learn; you can see that in his conversations with Bao-Dur. Freed from the 'limitations' of a genuinely human identity in the way the monomyth imagines a mythic figure, he also becomes an alienating, offputting living totem of an ideology that is discomforting and unsettling in the way a complete submission of the self into a destined role, an avatar of a belief system, naturally is. He's there to provide a counterpoint by dint of negative example of what happens when you wear the mask so long, so intently, that it becomes your own face, a theme repeated again with Darth Nihlus.

[@VashdaCrash]

What a beautiful paragraph, thank you for making it. It blends perfectly with the points of the video and Noah's style... How did you do that? 😂

[@matthaizlip5097]

*slow clap*

[@zinkheroofyoutube8004]

You sound exactly like Noah. You should make some video essays of your own

[@Teamdicer32]

@@VashdaCrash p

[@Kandosii]

This is belated as hell, but amazing essays like Noah's work really bring out the wordiness in everybody, including me. This is my personal reading, but I've got to disagree on Canderous, and in part because of a piece of dialog that's tragically easy to miss--if you bring Canderous with you on Rakata Prime and talk to him on the surface, he takes note of all the ancient warships scattered across the landscape. Great battles must have been fought here, and *nobody remembers them.* He finds that fundamentally disturbing. With the fundamentalist Mandalorian movement he was a part of so obsessed with "a battle that will be remembered forever", with deliberate mythmaking, he'd always taken a very simplistic view of how to build a culture and what a person should ultimately become--a perfect archetype, whose deeds will be remembered. Rakata Prime was another blow to that, following his confrontation with Jagi. To see KoTOR II take him away from that path was just heartbreaking for me personally, both because I loved his arc in KoTOR I, and because it made their story about personal choice seem so hollow. Here's the one guy who might've figured his shit out, but he's become a faceless NPC instead.

[@H3Vtux]

Last week I asked him to review KOTOR and now hedid, just because I asked. 100% not a coincidence at all he saw my comment and made this in a week.

[@MrDash711]

It’s true, he told me so.

[@LasherTimora]

Can you even call yourself a professional youtuber if you can't finish 2 RPGs and make a 2 hour long video about them in a week?

[@SansGray]

Ask for Pillars of Eternity 1 and 2 next please :P

[@parkerdixon-word6295]

To be fair, lots of people, myself included, have been asking pretty much since the Baldur's Gate review, if not earlier.

[@Henriktranoy]

Not to steal your thunder, but I'm pretty sure he made this video as I've just finished the first one, and am currently replaying kotor II. But if not for that, I would have guessed that it was your comment too

[@jurgenronaaz4695]

The phrase "Darth Plagueis the Wise was a fuckin' wannabe nerd" may just be the funniest thing I've heard all month, and I thank you for it.

[@CandyChaos7]

His phrase sort of offends me. But whatever, I'm here for Darth Revan. Not some Phantom Menace cut-out villain from Episode 3 that mere mentioned of his name being a thermal bomb by Darth Sidious to turn Anakin to the Dark Side...

[@m.edwardmcnally6802]

Almost 20 years later, what I mainly remember of my final, operatic confrontation against Malak is proving my superior virtue and righteousness by kiting him over frag mine, after frag mine, after frag mine... Like a Hero. ;-)

[@VerityCandle]

I dropped grenades at my own feet while Malak tried to stab me and then force healed myself and ran around in a circle until my force points regenerated. I wasn't good enough at the game to properly kite him, nor to land the sticky grenades, but I was a light side paragon and was still carrying every grenade I had picked up after Taris, because I had forgotten that they existed up until that moment. It was not exactly a dignified final battle.

[@Crow7878]

I just went into melee, then ran away with force speed and kite while I get enough force points to heal again and do it all over again, and do it again and again and again for about 40 minutes. Good thing there was no timer.

[@Empowerless]

I doubted when I read "almost 20" years but after thinking for a few seconds I realized it is truly almost 20 years. Kotor games still feel so modern to me. Thanks for making me feel old :)

[@Arhke]

That got a good snort chuckle out of me

[@enriquegarciacota3914]

Cheese is the Stronger Force Power.

[@noahp67890]

“With Mission, you get an impressionable street urchin who helps remind the player that this is still a family friendly adventure. You won’t encounter anything so upsetting, that a teenaged twi’lek couldn’t handle it.” *teenage twi’lek gets brutally murdered by her best friend*

[@PanAndScanBuddy]

That's just the one thing.

[@adyy78]

@@PanAndScanBuddy But she couldn't handle that.

[@californiansniper2133]

@@adyy78 lmao

[@kylescoolclips]

@@adyy78 no, no she couldn't... XD

[@thewayfarer8849]

Zalbarr couldn't handle it either, judging by his attack if you bring him to the Star Forge ;)

[@TheNegativeOptimist1]

I've just gotten out of work three hours late. I've spent the last hour in a freezing pub garden waiting for a very delayed train home to a soggy microwaved dinner. I'm on the train home and this pops into my feed. Noah, you've saved my evening and possibly my whole day. Thank you.

[@NoobFromRomania]

Enjoy it!

[@willkersey7340]

Username checks out

[@KCCOmug]

Considering Noah worked making pizza and had a similar life once I'm sure he appreciates that. Glad it helped. P.S. As a skeptical optimist I like your KZbin name.

[@butHomeisNowhere___]

Take care

[@tribbybueno]

how negatively optimistic

[@k.ebartlett1830]

"campbell writes, though I wish he wouldn't" how it feels to read campbell most of the time

[@MaxYari]

Reading it right now, past first quarter of the book. Don't understand the dislike, its well written and very rich in interesting examples of different world mythos. Not to mention how insightful it is. It simply is a great read.

[@SiddarthaTB]

​@@MaxYari Because it simplies shit and reaches to make connections lol

[@MaxYari]

@@SiddarthaTB yea, I heard that critique, maybe thats true, still a very interesting read and an interesting intent behinds it.

[@Nihilore]

@@MaxYari if you truly believe it has interesting intent behind it i recommend Maggie Mae Fish's 2-part essay on the topic kzbin.info/www/bejne/h2rdg2eijN6JhJo

[@SiddarthaTB]

@@MaxYari yea the connections are interesting to read but you can tell that it was written 3/4 of a century ago

[@smartalec2001]

The end fight against Kreia is really simple for why it happens. She’s your teacher, you’re her prize pupil. As a Sith, she knows that the only way for you to finish your lessons under her is to kill her. As a Jedi, she knows you have to break the master-student bond between you and her to be self-complete. And as an Echani, she believes that people find definition and resolution in conflict. So, after having manipulated all these foes to stand in your way - Sion, Nihilus, Atris - she sets herself up as the final villain, your last challenge. It’s the only way she knows to finalise your graduation from her schooling. That’s all there is to it; it’s all for you, to help you be the best you that she can.

[@wisdommanari6701]

And that is why we LOVE HER

[@ArvelDreth]

Kreia isn't an Echani

[@smartalec2001]

@@ArvelDreth isn't she? She follows their ways of conflict exposing truth. She and Handmaiden describe the same idea on two different occasions. And her daughter is full echani, not half echani or anything like that.

[@ArvelDreth]

@@smartalec2001 Kreia doesn't have a daughter. Kreia's worldview is just the Sith Code mixed with Nietzschean philosophy. The fact that one aspect of her beliefs overlaps with one aspect of the Echani's beliefs doesn't mean she's part of the same race as Brianna.

[@smartalec2001]

@@ArvelDreth she's Arren Kae, Handmaiden's mother. And she gives Handmaiden's definition of Echani ideas back to you at one point, reworded but synonymical.

[@bigdog517]

I enjoyed Taris and Peragus/Telos, actually thought Peragus was legit unnerving when I was a kid I think a big part of why people want to skip them is cause you have no choice but to be there

[@RoyalFusilier]

Peragus is indeed so damn creepy, you go to RPG places devoid of life all the time, but it's made very clear very early that this was the site of mass murder. Like, not monsters invading or some disaster, but a cold, systematic, deliberate killing, and you're caught within it too. It's a murder mystery without the detachment, which just makes figuring it all out a matter of your life and death too.

[@jimbob1862]

I agree a lot with this, Taris and Peragus are both great openers, but similar to Persona 5 such a strong and long introduction damages replayability because you're so chained during these moments

[@brarkbrark7985]

I feel the same way. I find it interesting how Noah interprets it as a refusal to the call because for me, its a refusal to the call because there is something weirdly comforting about Taris.

[@darthkek1953]

Taris is amazing the first few times through but becomes a LOOOOOOONG slog if you just want to play space pirate. Not that you really get to play space pirate but still.

[@bigdog517]

@@darthkek1953 Exactly! And I can't blame people for feeling that way either. Even if I personally think skipping them is kind lame

[@Ziel23987]

I always found it hilarious in a dark way how the Juhani quest can end up with her dead. I mean, everybody is willing to sit and do nothing, her master not telling her she survived, the council sending Revan to handle it... And then the 8 intelligence, 0 persuassion Defender blunders in and just offs her. Somehow, they did not realize this was a possible outcome. It's almost as if all the dumb and incompetent Jedi were force-waved upstairs into the council

[@theengine]

Oh thank God. About every three months, I look for Noah's Kotor 2 video that I remember he made, and then I reremember that he didn't. I'm now free of this cycle. Thank you, Noah.

[@Drongobee]

Thanks for willing this one into existence for us

[@theengine]

@@Drongobee Sure. I'm working on world peace, but if that doesn't happen, I'm gonna manifest a steak tree.

[@VashdaCrash]

@@theengine You do God's work mate. Be well.

[@sakelaine2953]

@@theengine Would you settle for a steak hydroponics station?

[@user-db2vx8fd4c]

"Hoooney, come to bed already, I'm not wearing anything..." "I cant, Noah is talking about Video Games again."

[@NeverSaySandwich1]

Stop talking to your dog

[@TreyaTheKobold]

who says you can't fuck and listen to deep video game analysis at the same time, learn to multitask jfc /s

[@FIDEL_CASHFLOW_]

You're really going to make this joke every time he puts out a new video now?

[@NeverSaySandwich1]

@@FIDEL_CASHFLOW_ He's only got one joke

[@zenithquasar9623]

@@TreyaTheKobold Noah and Chill?

[@logan5818]

Meek defense of peragus, story-wise it is absolutely horrifying and really sets the tone for the rest of the game on the first playthrough (annoying af on a second playthrough though). One of the only survivors isolated in the cold void of space trying to figure out where you are and how to escape. Sion stalking you like a Jason through the deserted freighter. It feels like they were going for a survival horror vibe. Like, if KOTOR 2 were made in a modern engine I think they could really get the setting selling it, tighten it up, and make it work. It feels more like Alien than Star Wars and the graphics, lighting, and level design just don't back up the fear, helplessness, and confusion I think they were going for.

[@dracomundo1498]

Huge agree with this. I didn't quite grasp how fucking grim the game would be until Peragus. This is a game absolutely potentially filled with large, large swathes of misery, death, and isolation. I'm very glad that the game has such a cold and ruthless opening tbh.

[@pepp418]

Nice idea in theory but i wonder how the whole "Exile I love you" would play out if he entered the game as Sith Lord Mr X

[@JamieM20001996]

I'm a freak in that I actually like playing through peragas every time I replay KOTOR II. Though I also like playing through the prologue every time so I'm probably an outlier.

[@phantomstrider]

There's no RPG I remember more than this. So many of Kreia's words have stuck with me. It's an absolute treat to see your take on these 2 amazing games. You're most appreciated, Noah.

[@ggt47]

(Gasps)You?!Did not you loved Star Wars never mind KOTOR/Legends.

[@papabaer6069]

I have to watch this again when I'm not high... Too much to take in, but sooooo good

[@benwasserman8223]

I did not expect to see you here Phantom. Glad you’re a fan of Noah’s reviews as well.

[@clueless64]

For real. I stole so many little quotes from the game for papers in college that it wasn't even funny.

[@aidanshaw4905]

Another reason to love PhantomStrider

[@TheRealMRTS]

small request: when quoting a book, something meant to be read, please put the words on the screen. It is at least for me, non native speaker, super hard to parse.

[@agyratingmonkey]

Do bots really just proclaim themselves as bots now? That's a really cool part of the algorithm

[@jamespriest2984]

@@agyratingmonkey I would normally agree but this person has a 15 year old account

[@oh-not-the-bees7872]

Shut up and figure it out

[@Farencio]

​​@@agyratingmonkeyyou know, English is a pretty irregular language between spelled and written word. In Spanish you say it and can easily write it, same with french. Bibliography and citations on screen are really helpful for non-natives like myself. Edit: and native english speaking folk pronounce other languages like shit. Usually you don't know any tongue outside of English and it shows. Particularly shameful when you're in a country supposedly rich economically and culturally with a huge mixed of different nationalities.

[@gaetondavis3741]

I would've never guessed that the we write in books is so different from how we speak that it's hard to understand for a non native speaker. Fascinating!

[@TyphorT38]

I've never understood the general hate for Taris. I've always loved it and often thought that it would have been even greater if there was more quests set on Taris. The planet breaths atmosphere and I love it. Always have, always will xD

[@captainufo4587]

It's true, but the main issue is that it's just intro. The main plot has not kicked off yet. You are not even on your "true" character development path. You have not met the largest chunk of main cast. Yet it takes about a quarter of the whole game.

[@LungDrago]

I like Peragus too. It's kind of System Shock-y with almost no live people except for holologs and droids being the antagonists.

[@quentinplummer2339]

Taris has definitely grown on me over the years. I feel really bad for Mission after it gets obliterated. And as a light side leaner i feel bad for everyone on taris.

[@larry3828]

the problem with taris and peragus seem to only be on later playthroughs. on the first playthrough i think they work well as intro/tutorials, but later its tedius once youve learnt the game and its just blocking you from getting to the actual meat of the game with the juicy choices and characters. I think a smart move would have been to make lots of the content optional so u can power thru quickly if u want on later playthroughs, but hang around if you feel like it. that being said, i do also love taris and always do every quest, its the best bit of the game for me. i just love how its like "youre just a dude and youre plonked in this cool star wars place," no jedi stuff, no force, no saving the world. I would love an entire star wars story like that tbh.

[@Xondar11223344]

I love Taris, I always spend as much time there as I can taking in the atmosphere, the characters, the setting, the missions, and story because I'll know it's all going to end. I never realized people hated Taris, or that people hated Taris enough to mod it out of the game.

[@Cirex9000]

52:20 NITPICK NERD MODE ACTIVATED!: It was Exar Kun that Jolee's wife followed, not Revan and Malak, around 40 years before the start of KOTOR. Kun's story was told in Star Wars: Tales of the Jedi by Tom Veitch and Kevin J. Anderson. (the KOTOR series serves as a sort of pseudo-sequel to Tales of the Jedi)

[@TheNord06]

what a detail. i love eu.

[@MatiProbably]

Thanks for this, I was struggling to remember how Jolee and his wife fit into Revan's story.

[@LPTheGas]

"And since KOTOR is inexplicably based off of modified 3rd Edition DnD rules..." It's actually very explicable - one, Lucas had a partnership with DnD publisher Wizards of the Coast at the time (the Star Wars tabletop RPG they released was the same way), and two, it's what the developers were used to, having just come off of the Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights games.

[@comicsans1689]

I wish we got more RPGs based off of 3e rules, especially some more Star Wars RPGs. Star Wars is the perfect setting for DnD-style RPGs.

[@Mortablunt]

Oh, and fuck THAC0, and 90% of 2eAD&D bullshit.

[@motharfirecaller3954]

Still, a more intuitive system would have made more sense. First time I played kotor I knew nothing about dnd and had no idea what d4 was supposed to mean.

[@ArvelDreth]

@@motharfirecaller3954 I don't think it's very necessary to understand the rules since literally everything is done for you by the computer. The system is intuitive enough that bigger numbers are clearly always better in this system and the game is easy enough that you don't need to use knowledge of the D&D 3.5 rules to min/max your character in order to have fun.

[@leXie1337_chan]

@@comicsans1689 There were literally three whole systems for Star Wars based off of the 3e rules: Star Wars d20, d20 Revised, and Saga Edition.

[@CT_Phipps]

36:00 I mean, fascist societies are every bit the same as the Sith in real life. Proclaiming the individual while actually crushing them. Simultaneously, any proper free society based on actual compassion and hope is one that protects the individual and the rights to expand oneself spiritually or mentally.

[@Siriathion]

Yes, but the Jedi teach that you should annihilate the ego and "Let go of attachments, you must" to quote Yoda, while at the same time protecting the system that is antithetical to these values - it is pluralistic and full of self expression. The Sith, to contrast, preach individualism on a personal level and making your own way but in reality, like all facists and capitalists, use these teachings to create a faceless army that can be used as pawns. All the while promising that, if you work hard enough and are ambitious enough, you will eventually get to be a part of the 1% that makes the decisions.

[@UnknownName5050]

*like all fascists and communists**

[@flerchin]

1:33:43 "You've basically given yourself a spiritual prolapse, and I bet that just feels awful." LOL. That's definitely a new sentence.

[@sachinaraszkiewicz785]

25:20 "Campbell writes, though I wish he wouldn't..." I love you, man. When I grow up, I want to be a Noah.

[@SuperPal-tr3go]

I think the reason why the Heroes' Journey is so ubiquitous in a lot of western storytelling is because when you break it down to its simples points its basically a schematic for making sure your characters at least go through basic character development, which arguably is essential for good storytelling. Leave safe space, find mentor, learn about the world, face challenges, fail, try again using what you'll learned, succeed.

[@q.parablesque5610]

Agreed. What's interesting about that structure, imo, is not it's only ubiquity but it's broad psychological resonance. The stories we tell, and the manner in which we tell them, are representations of our own desires, fears and neuroses. The shared elements of human stories across cultures, continents and centuries tell us something about our shared nature, the primal and universal parts of our unconscious mind. Noah seems to find this divisive, which is ok. I don't agree, I think it's an avenue for understanding our fellow humans, and ourselves in the process. Just my 2 cents.

[@ineednochannelyoutube5384]

@@q.parablesque5610 We are not allowed to generalise, to absoerve broad structures, or correlate with reality. Everyone and everything must be special. Every uniquecircumstance must be observed, every golden rule overturned, every model denoumced as flawed. Yes, I do despise post modernism, how could you tell. The monomyth is a reductionist framework. Ots a model, and models of sufficent accuracy is how we can know anything about the world. If we put out our own eyes over the realisation they capture imperfect images, we will only lose even what little insight we have.

[@squaeman_2644]

@@q.parablesque5610 I agree with this

[@cantrip7]

Idk, if you're reducing it to a character arc outline, there are more directly applicable, less loaded models. How broad and generous do you have to be with the monomyth so it doesn't grate or ring hollow? 1:25:08 is an example of how actually adhering to models like this crunches down a lot of the world's texture and meaning. It makes me want to interrogate the underlying assumptions and if they're actually all that useful AS a model. Why is it important to universalize mana and libido under the same banner? Do I get more interesting questions out of embracing this idea or rejecting it? etc. etc. Looking at the monomyth like that, I quite like it as a springboard for comparison, but less so as duct tape.

[@tomshraderd4915]

​@@ineednochannelyoutube5384 I am impressed by your ability to create ridiculous strawmen.

[@AvatarNaty]

Joliee's wife didn't join Revan's Sith Empire. She joined Exar Kun's Sith Empire. The time line is really weird, but some fifty years before KOTOR I, a Jedi named Exar Kun turned to the Dark Side and went to war against the Jedi and Republic, turning many Jedi to his side. This is the war that leads up to the Mandalorian Wars which in turn results in the Jedi Civil War.

[@det.bullock4461]

It is sort of hinted subtly in Clone Wars (which is extra movie material made under Lucas' supervision) that rather than emotions it was Anakin's ambition the real issue. There is a storyline in which Obi Wan Kenobi is stated to have been in a relationship with the future Duchess of Mandalore when he was a padawan and the only reason he didn't leave the Jedi order was because she intentionally never stated she wanted a serious relationship with him and did so on purpose because she didn't want him to abandon his duties as a jedi for her. Basically speaking it's a mirror of the Padme/Anakin relationship, showing that Obi Wan unlike Anakin would have gladly abandoned the Jedi order for love because he doesn't really see being a Jedi as a career (which is something hinted at the memetic rank of master thing in epIII) and also that there is really nothing binding Anakin to the Jedi order other than his personal ambition that ends up creating grief for all his loved ones. It seems to me that Lucas probably had an inkling of the issues with Campbell's vision and decided to soften it up a bit over time after the original trilogy and this is part of it.

[@ineednochannelyoutube5384]

Even in the original trilogy, what loke does is not inlike with how the jidi order are.portrayed in the prequels, or indeed what Yoda instructs him to do. I cannot say weather this is intentional, and if so what it is supposed to signify, but the detatched and robotic disposition of the order jedi are only ever shown to lead to problems in the setting.

[@brucesnow7125]

Clone Wars provides a lot of context for what prequels were trying to showcase but failed to do so. Prequels were trying to present Jedi as the fools who lost their way and became defenders of status quo. Unfortunately, Anakin was so deeply unlikable in the, that it was hard to see the movies as critiques of Jedi way. He seemed petulant and needy compared to more subdued and seemingly reasonable Jedi. Clone Wars showed the opposite. Especially in the whole Ahsoka arc, where they are so up their asses and so high and mighty, that they refuse to even apologize for nearly comitting her to an execution. They were so overly pragmatic and wanted to maintain their political strength to such extent, that they weren't willing to challenge the status quo. Clone Wars and Original trilogy both showcase that personal attachment is very important. Anakin is a kid with a lot of baggage. He needed someone to guide him through his emotional journey, someone to be there with him. Instead, despite Obi Wan being a good mentor, he never allowed himself to be a true father figure that Anakin desperately needed. All because of his loyalty to Jedi Code. Anaking turned towards the only person who was willing to listen to him - Palpatine. Palpatine was always there for him. Anakin even trusted him enough to reveal how he killed Tusken Raiders. Filoni himself said that the fact that Luke defaets Palpatine through appealing to his attachment with his father, shows that Jedi were wrong. He even shows the opposite of Anakin's path in Rebels. In Star Wars Rebels, the main protagonist, Ezra, is deliberate mirror of Anakin. Both lost souls, both very flimsy in their moral codes and both very much eager to take an easy way out. Unlike Anakin, Ezra's mentor was very emotionally open to him. So every single time Ezra gets closer to dark side, Kanan, his mentor, pulled him back from it by becoming a shoulder to cry on. By not telling him "oh well, emotion BAD, DARK SIDE BRO, stop that". Instead by being a father figure who was always ready to listen to his student and give him good advises. Kanan himself was a very unusual Jedi, who said "screw you" to no attachment code. He even has a romantic relationship with one of his teammates.

[@awakenow7147]

@@brucesnow7125 Well said man. I think the lack of a proper father figure really was a major issue. Great comparison between Anakin and Ezra. I didn't catch that initially. If Qui Gon would've lived, things might've been different. A true Jedi who followed the will(Whills?) of the Force, but a renegade when he feels guided to be. Part of Joseph Campbell's Hero's Journey involves rebelling against the status quo. This rebellion is how you ensure that you can follow your heart(the Force), instead of following flawed societies(Jedi, Republic, Empire etc). Because Qui Gon died, Anakin was not able to feel supported in this rebellion. Instead of feeling naturally guided by a good father figure, or simply internal intuition, Anakin was instead guided to finally rebel by fear of losing Padme. But fear is not sufficient enough to fulfill the Campbell journey of self-authentication. Fear can instead lead to a new form of slavery. Anakin simply exchanged shackles. He gave up the Jedi/Republic for the Sith/Empire. He didn't find freedom until the very end of his mortal life. Luke was very fortunate in this regard. He was able to rebel against the Jedi in time. And he did it through intuition, compassion, and attachment. He had a father and mother figure in the form of Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru. He has a mentor in the form of Obi and Yoda. He had friends and a sister who supported him. And he was able to self-train and gain clarity of mind so that he could eventually gain autonomy from the old Jedi Order, and also the Sith Order. He knocked out two birds in the same episode, and was able to get Anakin to join him. In summary: Anakin: 1. Father figure(Qui Gon): Died prematurely 2. Mother figure(Shmi): Died tragically and traumatically 3. Mentor(Obi-Wan): Too young and too dogmatic to truly support Anakin 4. Sister(Ahsoka): Leaves prematurely, and leaves Anakin feeling abandoned 5. Connection with the Force(inner intuition): Eschewed by the Jedi Code. No true meditation skills. Luke: 1. Father figure(Owen): Died, but after a significant amount of bonding time with Luke 2. Mother figure(Beru): Died, but after a significant amount of bonding time with Luke 3. Mentors(Obi and Yoda): Taught Luke the basics, but Luke's life as a soldier exposed him to other opinions other than theirs. Not enough time to be brainwashed 4. Sister(Leia): Got close via friendship, and no sense of abandonment whatsoever. 5. Connection with the Force(inner intuition): Luke was free to explore his feelings on his own, with no hardcore adherence to the Code. Result: Anakin's journey was not properly supported by his environment, leading to Hero's Tragedy, but eventual redemption Luke's journey was supported by his environment, leading to a Hero's Journey, with some dark temptations that were overcome through inner clarity and intuition.

[@dolphinsniper]

I think its less amibiton, and more, greed. Anakain wanted to be a Jedi, as it allowed him to help people, and he genuinely loved the Jedi. Its just, he also wanted Padme, and in an extremely unhealthy way. Anakain was greedy, and never internalised Jedi teachings in letting go.

[@dolphinsniper]

@@brucesnow7125 You do know that you are literally wrong, right? That Lucas has repeatedly and specifically said that he wrote the story in an easy-to-understand, black-and-white way. With the Jedi being the most morally righteous individuals in the Star Wars galaxy and the Sith as the bad guys. With Anakin being a petulant and needy adolescent being the entire point to his character, as it is this exact immaturity and greed that led him to becoming Darth Vader in the first place? Seriously, go seek out some of his interviews. They are extremely enlightening about how the Jedi actually function.

[@thorforsell1300]

Here's an anecdote I felt symbolically relevant: During the Kotor 1 final fight, or rather the dialogue before it, you go through the motions of telling Malak that he can still be saved etc etc. It is a drawn out affair with an obvious end. In the last exchange malak will exclaim, as a response to your insistance that you will redeem him, "Over my dead body". Me seeing the obvious light side answer that looked like it would prolong this bickering, decided that enough is enough, if he is so determined, how could I dissuade him?! So I chose the, mind you still passive" option to say: "That can be arranged" Which deducted a single light side point making me fail to live up to the insanely stringent ideals... of my lightsaber. I was playing a knight. No force powers, no guns. I now faced, not having saved for hours, the hardest fistfight you could imagine. I tried for 3 grueling hours before giving up and replaying a large portion of the game. I chose the slightly nicer, chattier option. Never before has the heroes path seemed so narrow nor deviation from it felt so punishing. I loved this video, watching it again years later. Thank you for your massive and astounding work and insights.

[@brentf9616]

This is hands down one of the most enlightening, and informative, breakdowns of one of my favourite games, and franchise.

[@KingsandGenerals]

Perfect timing!

[@DeamonMaim]

Didn't expect to find you here.

[@NeverSaySandwich1]

Okay then

[@kangaroocaliphate1577]

What the hell are you doing here? Lol

[@Latinkon]

A surprise to be sure, but a welcome one.

[@or_gluzman561Peace_IL_PS]

i didn't know that you are also Noah fan Kings and Generals

[@TheFusrodahmus]

"This is your brain on Freud" is fucking brilliant, I chortled while holding my non-phallic cigar. Side note: I'm Commander Shepard, and this is my favorite channel on the KZbins. (but for real noah, i love your content)

[@bitterleafcastle1552]

This comment is really funny))

[@metamar1034]

I love my cigar, but I take it out of my mouth every once in a while!

[@MisterAAnderson]

We'll bang ok?

[@paulsletten8985]

Bioware threads for the win

[@kanakawase]

"She doesn't have to live up to a reasonable person's standards, however; she has to live up to Cambell's." Sick burn.

[@FinneousPJ1]

@@bringinthedope5929 try watching the video mate

[@bringinthedope5929]

​@@FinneousPJ1 thanks for the suggestion but i did that awhile ago lol. its a 2 hour vid so i could have missed the line, which is why i asked the commenter about it. enjoy your day though mate.

[@BKSF1]

never seen the word mate turned into such sharp knives before

[@bringinthedope5929]

@@BKSF1 lol, not my intent

[@kanakawase]

@@bringinthedope5929 It was a roundabout way for Noah to say that Joseph Campbell was unreasonable.

[@DarthXentus]

Noah reading the names of Patrons: "Don't-read-my-name-I-don't-care" Don't-read-my-name-I-don't-care: ...

[@GeorgeNoiseless]

Don't-read-my-name-I-don't-care could have put in something like "empty or noname", yet they chose to make a _statement._ That's not a person that doesn't care, that's an emotional cactus.

[@zyrkugilgamesh]

@@GeorgeNoiseless that's an absolute legendary lad

[@arnox4554]

Actually, does any patron even care anymore if Noah reads their name off?

[@GeorgeNoiseless]

@@arnox4554 You'd have to ask each one personally, but as with any Patreon readout I imagine it's the people who put jokes/statements as their names that care the most.

[@usmub]

@@arnox4554 I wouldn't mind if he didn't, but appreciate the fact that he does very much. And hearing him getting my name nearly right is always a nice end to a fine watching experience. So to some degree, I do care.

[@Cybershell13]

I've been waiting for this...

[@Adam-nc6qg]

Holy shit, wasn´t expecting you here

[@lukecash3500]

Yep for years.

[@mendez704]

You took the words of my mouth

[@thebreadcircus]

Yeah, well-- I've been waiting for YOU.

[@jasonfenton8250]

*I've been looking forward to this

[@Siriathion]

It is interesting that the argument Noah makes for KOTOR II's existence (that it is a rejection of the monomyth from a position of devotion to it) reflects Kreia's approach to the Jedi Code: if you wish to truly understand, you need to go outside of a single doctrine. Just as the Code is not "All good all the time", neither is the Star Wars universe. And just as KOTOR II would be considered heresy today, Kreia was considered a Jedi heretic and exiled for seeking the truth outside of it.

[@hyperfixatedd]

thesis, antithesis, synthesis

[@marklee1194]

“To believe in an ideal, is to be willing to betray it. It is something no Sith or Jedi has ever truly learned." - Kreia, KOTOR 2

[@proprioceptive_ultragamer]

"The reasons you must fight kreia to the death are flimsy, unsatisfying." If you win, she has created a student that is a hostile threat to the force and carries her lessons the best--"you are greater than any I have ever trained" If you lose, she recreates a reverberating force echo that will deafen the galaxy to the force--by inducing the fight with the exile at the source of the wound in the force: Malachor V, which the Exile otherwise carries with her. For the Exile's future, it is also important not only to resolve her past with Malachor V--either by mastering it or destroying it--but also to severe their Force Bond. Zez-Kai-El tentatively suggests that one killing the other could sever the bond and not just have the consequences of them mutually denying. There are plentiful motivations for the final encounter. There is also the fact that Kreia is an old witch who has accomplished her final task in life and relies on a poison she despises to keep living.

[@kinshred1222]

I don't think I ever managed to identify your same conclusion that both games are even greater TOGETHER than they are by themselves, even though I think I've always known it subconsciously. Thanks man, I appreciate your work every day.

[@gabrielledebourg2487]

Seeing Noah get all theoretical and start to truly discuss games through a theory-based lens (something he already does, but here receives higher focus) like you'd see in the best of cultural studies is God Tier good. I hope we get to see more videos based around cultural theory from you!

[@Chopstewie]

"life is long and the betrayal of the Self is always a lurking possibility" Jesus, god... Are you looking into my soul? You don't get to cut me this deep in a Star Wars retrospective.

[@danielesquivel8936]

im 13 and this is deep

[@AvalonisHere]

@@danielesquivel8936 Sometimes, what you think is shallow is just an ocean that you've failed to judge the depth of.

[@LordJagd]

What does “ betrayal of the Self” even mean?

[@MrGalaxypool]

@@LordJagd I'm a bit late with this, but I would interpret it as unwanted urges and desires threatening to bring down your whole identity. Like a Pedophile who knows that it's wrong to diddle kids trying their best to resist those thoughts and urges.

[@LucasGabriel-sh9tf]

Noah's feeding us good this week lads

[@negativespace261]

Yet again, an absolutely stellar analysis. You manage to tie things together in such an elegant way, it never ceases to amaze me. This might be one of your best videos yet, in my opinion. And it happens to be on two games I have barely played

[@the_wake_]

One of my friends summed up the thesis of The Hero with a Thousand Faces as "A story... is when something happens." That's always stuck with me.

[@IIseasquareII]

Well hot damn. I found this channel because the algorithm recommended the Dark Forces/Jedi Knight video to me THIS MORNING. This man knows what I needs.

[@RemixedVoice]

Noah's channel is one of the best on KZbin, hands down

[@MrGrim-ib4ix]

I actually think lucas understood that the jedi were fundamentally inhuman even if they meant well. In both trilogies he deliberately shows a critically flawed and unlikable side to them. He just acknowledged that they aren't the worse thing in the galaxy at the same time.

[@ElectricMoonlight]

I always felt like there was a scene missing from the end of Attack of the Clones where the Jedi council react with great sadness and disappointment that Count Dooku became the Sith Lord Darth Tyrannus. It would have been a coda to Mace Windu's assertion at the beginning of the movie that "Count Dooku couldn't assasinate anyone" because he was once a Jedi. Maybe it would have spoiled the subtlety of the way the Jedi's hubris is portrayed in the PT, but it would have hit a lot harder that the Jedi were setting themselves up for a downfall.

[@cuckmulligan7602]

@@ElectricMoonlight That would require Mace and the other masters to admit being wrong before the Order is destroyed, so Yoda's line "Joined the Dark Side Dooku has. Lies, deceit, creating mistrust are his ways now" is the closest thing we got

[@Poonchow]

@@ElectricMoonlight God I wish the prequels had gone through more revision and different directors other than just Lucas. Dooku is a prime example of a villain who's set up to be a masterful FOIL to the Jedi way; Qui-Gon's old master, disillusioned with the Jedi ways, leads Qui-Gon to follow the Living Force instead of the Jedi's more strict teachings. Instead we got cartoonish and pompous Dooku and a CGI infested battle. It wasn't even set up tonally that the Clone Troopers would be the downfall of the Republic; the end of Episode II should have been sad and revolutionary, instead we get a lightsaber rave show and Yoda bouncing around like an idiot.

[@comicsans1689]

The Jedi, while flawed, still offer the best vision for handling the gift of The Force. Those who stray from Jedi teachings end up becoming both self-destructive and destructive to others.

[@JimJamTheAdmin]

@@comicsans1689 I find this to be false. The Jedi create an environment where only their version of the force is accepted. Do you not see how toxic that is? It's a system designed to force out anything other than total obedience because the Jedi are unwilling to be flexible. This is literally the messaging behind Anakin's turn to the dark side. The sheer emotional neglect means Anakin has no way of navigating difficult emotions. The results were predictable.

[@SeanNaut]

"Spiritual Prolapse" was not a phase I expected to hear today...

[@tamsirjames3793]

No way. We have been waiting actual years for this. I remember watching your old videos when you still.worked at that pizza place, you would talk about maybe doing a kotor review. Now here we are, I geuss its true that with time all good things will come. Thanks for all your hard work noah!!!!!!!

[@kalashnikovdevil]

Random thought related to the Jedi order and criticisms therein... what's interesting is that *Luke* is a complete repudiation of the Jedi order's dogma. There's extra to this if you consider the EU. Here's some general points that stand out. 1. You can't teach adults or near adults the ways of the force. Luke not only becomes a Jedi Knight, he rebuilds the Jedi order, and is not only Master, but named Grand Master by the many masters of the ways of the force that Luke himself trained. 2. You can't bring someone back from the Dark Side. A weird tenant when you consider how common this is, but Luke himself proved the superiority of his dogma over the old Jedi order's when he redeemed his father... and was later redeemed himself. 3. Emotional bonds are dangerous for Jedi. Maybe but Luke's a very successful Jedi, and he had the benefits of a stable, healthy and emotionally normal upbringing instead of being taken as an infant by aesthetic monks. Luke's New Jedi order tended to take older children in general, beyond masters and knights training their own children before sending them to the praxum, truly young children generally don't receive more than general instruction on the force, and the moral framework therein till they're older. That knights and masters are commonly having children, and that there's numerous weddings depicted or commented on in the various EU media, including Luke's own to Mara Jade. I think a lot of that speaks for itself. 4. At times the Jedi/Sith divide seems to come down to cutting one's self off from all emotion (though never really doing that for... reasons.) While the Sith embrace all the most destructive parts of the flip side of that coin. While not giving a shit is indeed the actual polar opposite of passionate hatred, it seems to me that Luke's fighting with one emotion above all powering the force as it flows through him, that might be far more powerful a weapon against the cloying desires of the Sith than detachment. Love. For his sister. For his father. For his friends. Love for everything and everyone he comes across, determined to do what he can for those who can, or want, to be helped. Not taking any BS either. Luke's hardly a pushover and he's more than happy to defend himself or others in the face of aggression. Which all reminds me of the Dalai Lama... who's got a very similar vibe when you listen to him speak... and like most Eastern pacifists... he's not exactly shy about the concept of self defense either. The New Jedi Order's very successful in many, many respects. Perhaps more so than the Old Jedi Order that preceded it. All based on the far more grounded philosophies of Luke Skywalker that seem, in my mind, more naturally, and in tune with the same. This was a part of the EU that I really, really miss, because the humanist (...err Sapienist? Not sure what that word would be with multiple intelligent life forms sharing a galaxy) tones of the New Jedi Order proving so successful was fascinating. Was that intended? I don't know for sure. It happened over the course of dozens, hundreds of pieces of media... all theoretically approved by Lucasfilm's minders. I don't know if George went that deeply in to it.

[@matthiasman]

Top tier comment.

[@dolphinsniper]

I don't think there's a single comment here which reflects the EU/Legend's complete and utter misunderstanding of how the Jedi actually WORK more than this one. Save for the issues with teaching adults a completely new way of life. Everything you talk about. Helping people in the Dark Side to come back to the Light. Having strong, emotional bonds with other people, and actually being a healthy, emotionally mature individual... that's the teachings of the Jedi. That's how the Jedi, the Old Jedi worked. The simple fact that you attribute these as being big, huge, monumental shifts in the Jedi Order as brought on by Luke Skywalker just... really speaks to a fundamental misunderstanding to how the Jedi actually WORK. Look at the movies, and the Clone War show alone. Maybe Rebels too if your willing to stretch. You'll never find anyone teaching you that people fallen to Darkness are beyond help. You'll never find the Jedi teaching you to suppress emotions, or to deny the possibility of strong, emotional bonds with others. And yet, everyone seems so certain that this is what was actually taught. Its fascinating to witness... if not also incredibly sad at how such pointed, black-and-white writing has been twisted and corrupted into something unrecognizable.

[@Reverse_Hood]

@@dolphinsniper Exactly! So much of online Jedi Criticism is always directed at an incorrect fandom-constructed image of it

[@ArtwithBen]

@@dolphinsniper Ben Kenobi literally tells Luke Anakin is dead and only Vader remains. Yoda compels Luke to fight Vader. Luke was the only person who thought he could be saved, they literally argue about this in the OG movies. In the prequels, age matters, love and attachment are banned. OP is completely correct. The prequels codified all of these things. Lucas came up with these tight constraints after the EU/Legends writings which is why there is such a contradiction. Luckily it hinges on Luke being the figure of change which works pretty well.

[@dolphinsniper]

@@ArtwithBen No, you and the OP are completely incorrect. Ben and Yoda pushed Luke to be ready for the POSSIBILTY of needing to kill Vader in order to win. They wanted him to be ready to accept that possibility. Rather then trying to force him to kill Vader. It's quite noticeable that they were more than happy to chill with Anakin Skywalker's Force Ghost in the end. More importantly, in the prequels. They explictedly spell out the difference between Love and Attachment! As Anakin himself says. The Jedi are defined by their compassion, their selfless love. It's greedy relationships and the inability to let GO which is the issue. And we see that play out perfectly in the film. Anakin was unable to accept the possibility of Padme dying, and that's why he turned to darkness and butchered a bunch of children. Luke is not a figure of change. Never has, and never will be. Luke is a figure of restoration and healing. Of the old, forgetting ways, being brought to life once more.

[@hawksandsparrows]

The depth of this video is incredible. You can tell so much care was taken and its all brilliantly delivered fully formed and executed beautifully. You should be so proud of this Noah! We are so lucky to have you and your work

[@Reliken]

"That would be like if Luke decided to stay on the moisture farm because he decided to do the work." That's exactly what he does! Hah. Luke refuses the call to adventure, and then his aunt and uncle get murdered and the farm gets burned down. :)

[@usmub]

The fact you chose to interact with The Hero With a Thousand Faces in good faith and extract meaning out of it while still acknowledging it's faults, is why I keep coming back. It's what's missing in a lot of current cultural discourse. Thank you for leading by example!

[@butHomeisNowhere___]

Well said! I couldn't agree more.

[@ichoffski4707]

How? The only reason Noah comes back to it, as he says in the video, is because it's "anti-colonial", whatever the fuck that means.

[@AdumbroDeus]

@@ichoffski4707 it means it's explicitly critical of how the creation of cultural outgroups is used to justify atrocity and it explicitly places it in the contest of colonial atrocity.

[@scparker6893]

@@ichoffski4707 while also being casually racist apparently

[@ichoffski4707]

@@AdumbroDeus waaah, imperialism bad

[@Tudmoke]

the best May 4th present a fella could ask for

[@benwasserman8223]

Well aside from The Bad Batch release.

[@PointyHairedJedi]

I think one of the reasons Andor is so phenomenal is that it really does eschew a lot of the traditional Star Wars narrative structure - and while I know you usually stick to video game analysis, I hold out a tiny bit of hope you might talk about it some day.

[@thirdcoinedge]

It's a culmination of past Star Wars projects in realizing that there can in fact be stories set in the Star Wars universe set entirely separate from the machinations of narratives pertaining to the tropes of the Monomyth. No grand plan, no wider philosophical symbolism or mythic representation of characters. Just ordinary people, which affords it to a level of political subtext and commentary that wouldn't otherwise be available to Star Wars. Fascism is bad, says Andor, because we see the consequences of it on individuals, both at the receiving end of its violence and those within its systems of management. Hopefully, it won't be the only such project with this clarity of direction and boldness of messaging.

[@Justin-ib2iz]

Oof, I've seen so many critics I enjoyed uncritically reproduce this laundered version of Campbell's hero's journey as The One Way To Tell Stories, very refreshing video right from the get go!

[@AcolytesOfHorror]

did anybody else read this title as "Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic 1 & 2 Vs. Joseph Anderson"

[@SGresponse]

BEGONE, FOUL TONGUE. We don't speak of the uninspired hack here.

[@MrRudesku]

I did :D

[@flopus7]

Kotor is mighty but has it learned Polish in order to review a video game?

[@SGresponse]

@@flopus7 BEGONE, FOUL TONGUE.

[@megetmorsomt]

'You who have defeated us say to yourselves that Babylon is fallen and its works have been overturned. I say to you still that man remains on trial, each man in his dock. Each man is a little war.' Frank Herbert - Dune

[@WHALEBOY777]

I like that Noah chose to make the player character a girl so he could've have a girl go through the hero's journey while talking shit about Joseph Campbell lol

[@ZeroBitsCboehme]

"Campbell writes-though I wish he wouldn't" is an all-timer.

[@lalabox]

i love coming back to this video it really is one of the best essays about star wars out there

[@sidremus]

1:33:43 "You're basically giving yourself a spiritual prolapse and I bet that just feels awful." It does. But, the first spiritual shit you take after is the best one you'll ever spiritually take!

[@LivingDeadbeat]

I love Taris. Even after replaying this game countless times. The lower city/undercity is one of my favorite parts of the entire game.

[@robertwizzy666]

Taris has one issue really: because the game has a level cap, the longer u stay on Taris, the more levels you put into your starter class and less into jedi levels. You therefore go about underleveled so you save these level ups until you get out of there. Minor minor issye

[@comicsans1689]

@@robertwizzy666 Not really an issue if you do a good character build. All you need is strength, dexterity, and constitution in that order.

[@robertwizzy666]

@@comicsans1689 it's less about being efficient and more about wanting more jedi goodies.

[@br33dlove25]

@@robertwizzy666 How about do all the content on Taris, but once you get to the desired level don't level up further?

[@btarczy5067]

Killing Bendak on a level one character will forever be my crowning video game achievement, shortly followed by finding out that the magical cage in Dragon Age when cast on your allies turns them into an invincible tank. Just do all the quests but never level up after the tutorial!

[@Ruxinator]

You know, one day about a year ago or so I somehow stumbled upon a series retrospective of yours and was incredibly impressed. I've only gotten more and more impressed with every video you create, because you consistently make me feel like engaging the critical thinking portions of my brain more than most anyone else.

[@davidcolby167]

One thing: Rey actually takes the Jedi texts from the temple in The Last Jedi. You see them at the very last moment of the movie. That's why Yoda says "she has everything she needs" to Luke - because...she does.

[@AcolytesOfHorror]

She does indeed have the books at the end of TLJ, but seeing as how that whole convo is letting go of the past, culminating in Yoda literally blowing up the old temple, I don't think he's referring to like... old books... in that quote, imo

[@davidcolby167]

@@AcolytesOfHorror Well, I believe the idea is that Rey's going to take what is good from the old and build something new and better in the future, rather than just blindly recreating what has already come before. *sighs*

[@triggthediscovery]

@@AcolytesOfHorror The conversation wasn't about letting go of the past, it's about letting go of the books. The scene goes out of it's way to have Luke say he never even read them. Luke wasn't a hero in Eps 4-6 because he read old books, he was a hero, as he became at the end of TLJ, because he risked his life to save his friends. That's the message of TLJ, that what was meaningful about the past wasn't empty regurgitation or tradition, it was the transcendent meaning which came out of those traditions. That the past shouldn't be thoughtlessly disregarded or embraced. Ray ultimately saves the day by moving rocks, but it's not because moving rocks is in and of itself meaningful but because those rocks were trapping her friends, and that is what makes the powers of a Jedi so meaningful.

[@brarkbrark7985]

@@triggthediscovery Yep, this why I was hoping they would take the jedi order in a more decentralized direction where Rey as a Jedi travels around the galaxy to learn about different people and how they interpret the force. I am only now realizing that that would be a really fitting resolution to the whole idea of the Hero With a Thousand Faces.

[@ephemeraldgames]

@@AcolytesOfHorror but he is. He tells Luke what he thinks Luke needs to hear to unstuck himself while winking at the audience

[@samuelcolt7034]

This video has been years and years in the making, and I couldn't be happier it's finally here!

[@Ehal256]

"You won't encounter anything so upsetting that a teenage Twilek couldn't handle it" Well, you can force zaalbar to kill her against his will. That's pretty bad.

[@Stokkolm]

While Kotor is family friendly in terms blood and gore, dark side moments like the one you mentioned are some of the most morally brutal in a video game, because it gets you personally invested in the characters and the decisions you make. Unlike let's say Postal, which is morally depraved, but it's so silly and unrealistic.

[@matthewburns795]

I've never clicked on a Noah video so quickly

[@dreamthief286]

Kreia is what happens when you drop Nietzsche in a setting where good and evil are palpable things.

[@travdump209]

nietzsche would be far more interesting in a world where adherents to master morality can shoot lightning from their fingers

[@brarkbrark7985]

@@travdump209 Pretty much everything would be tbh

[@LutraLovegood]

Is she? "When power becomes gracious and descends into the visible - such descent I call beauty. And there is nobody from whom I want beauty as much as from you who are powerful: let your kindness be your final self-conquest."

[@rpvarela]

I'm really surprised by your take on Peragus. I really enjoyed it! It was so fun to piece together what happpened there, discover the whole story. Even tho it wasn't great mechanically, I really enjoyed the narrative there. BTW, new to the channel. Good video! :)

[@alangriffith9453]

I loved it too, partly because of the intro where you play as the droid. I love the droid, and the gameplay of exploring and hacking.

[@wardogblaze5106]

The problem with Peragus is less how it goes when you're playing for the first time, but more just how linear it is when you know everything that's coming. There's very little chance to interact with other characters in meaningful ways until about 2/3 of the way through the tutorial (out of the mining tunnels and dorms) other than snarking at Atton over the comlink. The gameplay doesn't even really carry it either since you're stuck with a party of 1 and with very few combat options available to you since you're stuck at such a low level and fighting mining droids, mining droids on 2 legs, mining droids with grenades, turrets and repair orbs. Once you hit Citadel Station, the game opens up with the sidequests, meaningful choices in who you work for, and the first interesting sidequests (like helping the black marketeer brother get all the illicit goods or going to the local authorities to set up a sting, or following the lead of the assassin who tried to kill you (RIP that plot thread)). The writing really starts getting it's chance to shine instead of being one long dungeon encounter with a plot to uncover as you go

[@FabulousResults]

Great video as usual, my one complaint here is when you mentioned Canderous. His plotline feels like a regression because it is meant to be one. Every companion character is suffering from trauma, something in their past that they haven't been able to overcome. The Exile helps them mend it in some way (or use it as fuel for further destruction), but it's a self-fulfilling act because doing so makes the Exile stronger. Canderous was betrayed by Revan, broken and basically forced to rebuild the Mandalorians because it's what Revan wanted for his own nebulous goals. Canderous is chasing after Revan's approval, even long after he's disappeared. It's supposed to feel tragic if you played the first game.

[@Maggerama]

Man, you're inspiring me with your musings. You find the greatest things to quote and disassemble in a high-brow manner. I deeply enjoy it with my entire being and put it to good use in my work... okay, so far a hobby.

[@bepkororoti8019]

Correction: The Last Jedi showed Rey to have taken the books before she left, they're stashed away on the Falcon

[@maxwellkazemba2299]

That's a big problem I had when I saw it for the first time. They had a chance to throw out the old way, jedi vs sith yadda yadda, and superficially the the whole film built up to that. But by the end they had just recanted everything it seemed like they were leading up to, and all the most important people in the galaxy ended up on the most important ship with the most important books. Laaaaame

[@LPTheGas]

@@maxwellkazemba2299 I dunno. I take it as the Jedi order as resurrected under Rey will be informed by the old ways but not bound by them.

[@mdd4296]

@@LPTheGas nah it'd disney so they will all return to status quo in the end. Remember that little game called jedi: fallen order? The game where chris fucking avellone was also involved in? The game with an old mentor figure who showed similar sentiment to kreia's? Oops, turns out he was crazy all along and the jedi order was just misunderstood. Here's your witch waifu, enjoy her company.

[@larry3828]

@@maxwellkazemba2299 its not a contrivence that all the important ppl end up on the most important ship imo, thats just how the force works

[@brarkbrark7985]

@@maxwellkazemba2299 I think the idea was that the next movie would focus more on what the jedi would become. The Last Jedi is a continuation of a larger story after all. It didnt really work out that way though...

[@stormthrush37]

Fun fact: after getting the story from the Sandpeople by trading that valuable Krayt Dragon Pearl, you can fight them and get it back in addition to a boatload of XP.

[@Reubel]

Video games!

[@darthkek1953]

@@Reubel Good Cop Bad Cop is one thing. S C A N N E R C O P is the best thing.

[@fouronetwo813]

Or just save before you do, hear the story and reload. For the lightsiders

[@MeTakingAStand]

Finance major identified

[@GrayFoxHound9]

Which they deserve and what is a moral thing to do. I hate them.

[@Grimfatex]

I absolutely love your writing and expression style. To make me love something more than I already did, or creating a love for something I had no clue/care about. It's truly a treasure.

[@JuniperBlue39]

You’ve got some amazing videos but this one has blown my mind. I suspect I’ll be returning to this one regularly. Thank you!

[@brocklewis7624]

The time has come for this review. And Noah is still hitting us with the greatest intros in all of KZbin.

[@aperturesciencegames]

This video has really helped me appreciate the first game more than I gave it credit for initially, even as a child you can very much *feel* how the second game rejects the structure of the first; young me really hated Atris because she was the first 'jedi' I encountered that little me could identify as one, Kreia was a force user but her voice and teachings were alien to me and as someone who had been ardently light side and jedi all the way through the first. Whilst Bastilla is brash, she's not unrecognizably so that she is not immediately identifiable as a Jedi, struggling under the weight of destiny as much of the Film and other media's characters do, and yet here was Kreia, asking me to be mindful and mistrusting of the telos ithorians who put so much stock in the healing potency of the force, and questioning if I'm even doing charity out of genuine compassion or simple minded dogma. So when you meet Atris, in her ersatz 'academy', surrounded by robed warriors, with her own council room and pristine, bright white trappings, my young brain could only click and say 'Ah finally, a Jedi to call me on to action' and yet ultimately it was the Exile who chose to find the other council members, whilst Atris simply turns you away. Atris' hatred for you, her clear vindictive nature and ulterior motives, even as far as to use non-force sensitives like a barrier against Sith detection, are all obvious from the beginning when you pay attention past all her faux symbolism that Star Wars is so keen to place absolute value on. But to someone who just came off KOTOR 1, your brain instinctively maps the the Telos academy as the same place of learning and call to action as your experiences on Dantooine in the first. It is the same tragedy of revisiting Dantooine in KOTOR 2, there are no jedi, the only ones mourned by K1, only settlers, beset by mercenaries, not the powerful marauding sith lords but greedy ex-sith foot soldiers against weak militias, both victims of climactic abstract struggles between Jedi and Sith that brought destruction to them, without the viewing it is given in K2, Dantooine is a footnote casualty of adventure, the same way Telos' utterly shattered world is a reminder that no redemption will undo the complete ruin Revan once brought to it's skies. The Exile gathers to defend Telos not with a Republic fleet, but with the scattered castaways of the monomyth; from Onderon's soldiers (who arrive regardless of who you sided with), to Dantooines Miltia/Mercenaries, all forces against a being who is quite literally driven by a hunger for the force itself, a death impulse not even motivated by ambition but compelled themselves by an all compelling force that the Monomyth posits to exist in all stories. Malak is a final challenge for the story's hero, he can be beaten by the hero at the end of his journey, The Exile is the only one who can defeat Nihilus because The Exile's strength is not internal, but is drawn by their great empathy and connection they either inspire (light) or feed from (dark) their companions, they are a wound in the force that draws other's loyalties to them; they exist 'outside' the force, the way Nihilus is controlled by it, and thematically, that is essentially a poison to Nihilus, it's the monomyth attempting to absorb one who refused 'the call'. that is at least my interpretation

[@Purple_Moose]

This was beautiful to read.

[@Aion1os]

Thanks for the insight Big Bo

[@roondar6141]

Some of my favorite games of all time, KotOR 2 more than 1, wish it had gotten the proper time it needed. Between KotOR 2 and New Vegas with the relative disappointment of The Outer Worlds makes me think Obsidian should create sequels and side games for existing series that are critical of the series itself.

[@trevinhs]

Holy fuck I was looking for something to listen to until I fall asleep, was not expecting the best Star Wars essay on youtube

[@CaptScrotes]

Man I have to say, your video essays are a highlight of my KZbin experience. Thank you so much for the efforts and wisdom you put into enlightening us and sparking our thoughts

[@BucketheadArchive]

2 hours of the most well spoken man on KZbin! Thank you for the video Noah. It's always a treat to hear your perspective, regardless of the topic.

[@Marco-Solo]

"Darth Plagueis the Wise was a fuckin wannabe nerd compared to Scion's mastery over death..." I love you Noah.

[@edwardaminov58]

Great video with lots of good details and points to make about both subjects. I just want to say regarding the monomyth and Campbell's ideas, I always personally read them as a kind of best-fit line explaining the functional similarities between cultures, mythologies, and religions, not as a direct model that they all necessarily fit into but rather shared points in terms of how they serve their societies and how they use symbols to express frames of looking at life. Campbell himself talks about this I believe later on the Power of Myth miniseries (I could be misremembering), but the most useful aspect of the monomyth for me is for its ability to be able to identify the differences, not the similarities, between cultures and religions and so forth. By providing that statistical conceptual baseline, it becomes easier to spot variations from the "metadata" so to speak of the hero's journey and sport the divergences in regional and temporal beliefs and how they adapt and change. In Power of Myth, he discusses a lot of differing myths and stories that vary wildly from the traditional hero's journey, although they can still be considered stories about journeys ending with self-transformation. I think the quote you use about symbols needing to be translucent put it best, the best way to read Campbell in my opinion is to focus on connotation, not denotation, and to understand the monomyth as a myth itself of the era of the time. Even the jungian and freudian concepts informing the monomyth are cultural memes akin to gods for the 20th early post-modernist century.

[@cantrip7]

+

[@harlek1149]

Having grown up with Star Wars I knew it had influenced my thinking and outlook on life, but I never realised the extent to which I had internalised the Monomyth's precepts. Even through critique it can give someone that feeling of "discovering something outside of yourself." The Hero With a Thousand Faces is something I've been meaning to get around to reading for ages and now it seems that I really will have to, in the meantime you've earned another patron. Best wishes.

[@baviddeckham411]

Never have I read a title more specifically catered to my interest :D Thanks Noah and all the best to you

[@exorbitantprivilege]

Just in awe at how good you are at this

[@saintdane05]

A friend of mine once said that the hero of a thousand faces is nothing more than a long winded TV tropes page, and that's stuck with me ever since

[@travdump209]

tv tropes but make it weirdly psychosexual

[@youradhere3476]

I'm keeping this one, thanks

[@ichoffski4707]

And did you ever try reading it yourself?

[@saintdane05]

@@ichoffski4707 she said that as I mentioned I was reading it so...

[@tonyred2828]

You do understand that recognizing the existence and prevalence of tropes across mythologies over half a century before TV tropes ever existed is pretty impressive, right? I feel like people just hate his interpretations because he recognized storytelling patterns and said that they were positive rather than insisting they all be burned down and some new framework take their place.

[@PillsburySoyboy]

I'm dealing with finals for my 2nd semester of "real" college and your videos are the only thing keeping me together.

[@rhonin255]

Love that I checked your channel again and this video popped up! Wonderful! By the way I actually liked Taris from a gameplay standpoint since it's laying out your character and provides build up to your "homecoming" on Dantooine. On a serious note, it boggles my mind that I can sit here and listen to something that feels wonderfully academic and deals with something I used to play as a literal child. Thank you for your incredible work. Both for it's amount and it's thoughtfulness.

[@SinaelDOverom]

35:22 the reason behind the D20 is because BioWare used an updated version of the Aurora engine (Neverwinter Nights engine) and were already familliar with how power curve works in it, so they used what they knew works well instead oif trying to reinvent something that might or might not work.

[@alx9776]

Hey, remember when we were all talking about when would Noah make this video when he released the Dark Forces one? EDIT: Also, Fem!Revan, eh? Respect, I always went Fem!Revan, Male!Exile.

[@12thLevelSithLord]

Male!Exile is the better exile. Scholar guy sucks.

[@alx9776]

@@12thLevelSithLord True, Mical is annoying. Though, I did enjoy his little discussions on the "missing piece" of the Jedi Code, and why so many powerful Sith were fallen Jedi. That was interesting.

[@kalashnikovdevil]

I played fem!exile with the mod to ditch Mical for the Handmaiden.

[@erichzannbusoumuzan]

Male!Revan and Fem!Exile(Mitra Surik) are canon, though.

[@val7885]

@@erichzannbusoumuzan Who the 'canon' is, is irrelevant. Especially in this kind of game.

[@DAvechado]

41:22 Bioware be like: "Don't mind if i REPEAT THE SAME STORY BEAT FROM NWN FOR 2 FRANCHISES STRAIGHT

[@michaelbenson5677]

To be fair, it's a compelling element of worldbuilding and the trope is used pretty extensively outside of Bioware IPs as well. Discovering ancient secrets is a pretty common adventure hook, and to do so said ancients typically have to be absent for one reason or another.

[@megamike15]

4 they di it with jade empire and dragon age.

[@johnpoole3871]

Hey they were great at telling that story. Kind of miss it.

[@SimonBuchanNz]

Yeah the ancient precursor race thing in particular was stupidly popular for a while, Halo did it, Starcraft did it, Jak and Daxter did it, heck Doom does it in Eternal. I miss the villain being *literally* a negative version of you.

[@nyanarchy]

I think Joseph Campbell interpreted Jung's Anima and Animus archetypes literally, taking the cultural and social representations to correlating with gender as a social construct, and thus "mother" and "father" roles, and instead of integrating the feminine and masculine as Jung did, use representations in others.

[@ripred42]

Yeah I was surprised how much he fingered Freud as Campbell’s main psychological influence, given Campbells clear devotion to Jung.

[@venepskeuten9206]

Man i love video essays about things i enjoy. I just take great pleasure listening to a guy speak in detail about the things i like and the philosphies/ideas behind them for an hour or more.

[@ForgetfulPretzel]

Holy wow. Deepest critique on the platform. Very eye opening, intelligently expressed, perfectly read (I assume as one take). Words fail me.

[@jens1639]

Joseph Campbell being used as a template for storytelling, when his own book was a critique of this phenomena, might seem ironic, but does it not perhaps also reflect a society that no matter how many pieces of critique aimed at it, will try and absorb in an effort to reproduce itself rather than evolve? Sorry if that sounded convoluted. I guess what I mean is, that when an idea gains notoriety, the dominant worldview will try and readjust the idea, even when the idea is a directly an antithesis to the worldview?

[@LordJagd]

I think Lucas was aware of that. He committed to having a mythic story with the main trilogy, and added as much depth as he can (while also merchandizing, but whatever, he’s jus a genius in two ways lol). Then with the prequels, he took that original myth and its impact and tried to truly deconstruct and invert it in subtle ways. The filmmaking maybe didn’t pull it off, but it was a brilliant effort, IMO

[@IAmMaxwellHearMeRoar]

This one was incredible, Noah. Thank you.

[@trashpanda6885]

That funk Star Wars theme is amazing. Can't believe I didn't know that was a thing.

[@setcheck67]

I'd like to clarify that the reason this game is oddly based on D&D is because it shares the same engine as neverwinter nights. These games were the only ones outside of neverwinter nights to use the aurora engine.

[@goransekulic3671]

Didn't The Witcher 1 also use Aurora?

[@kevinshoemaker2393]

1:19:38 "Throw in the only evil wookie I've ever seen in a piece of Star Wars media..." Chuundar: Am I a joke to you?

[@lukecash3500]

I probably started wondering five years ago how Noah considers KOTOR.

[@mdzunayed]

Hell yeah! My comment on your last video was me asking for this!!

[@vp21ct]

One of the elements of the Expanded Universe that was absolutely wonderful and that the Disney Canon has lost, I feel, was how so much of the old legends EU strove to denounce the notion that the galaxy was trapped in this constant back and forth of the Jedi Schism. Especially prior to the Prequels, the conflict between the Empire and the New Republic was framed not background to the conflict between Jedi sects, but instead it was the foreground, with the Jedi conflict occuring in the shadows of this broader ordeal, and which the rest of the galaxy largely would continue along it's way none the wiser. Even as the series moved into the New Jedi Order novels, and the Jedi became more and more and more central to the plot and it's elements, the conflict was steered away from a return to the recursive monomyth by introducing an entirely outside context problem, a villain who was entirely separated from the ordeals of Jedi vs Sith, and who was, infact, divorced from the Force entirely (and quite literally). Sadly, this was to be lost later . . . as the trials and tribulations of Jacen Solo's descent into the darkside, and later the involvement of Aboleth, would bring the Jedi and their conflict squarely into not just the narrative spotlight but the center of events around which the Galaxy itself spins.

[@uxorioushornet]

I love Noah's videos so much, and this is BY FAR my favorite of all his videos. Outstanding!

[@professorkatze1123]

the twist was amazing. i never saw it coming at the time was mindblown. in retrospective there are loads of forshadowing moments of course but as a kid i never expected anything until the moment revan takes the helmet off in the cutscene.