StarCraft 1: BEST UNIT IN THE GAME? - Ample vs Motive | CNSL 5

Ample (Terran) vs Motive (Protoss) - ro16 Group A - Loser's Match, Game 1
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[@MrZebub]

Finally a pro game that at least mildly resembles my turtle-and-amass noobie strats in the campaign missions.

[@RMJ1984]

9:57 I love how the reaver dares to defy Artosis, no sir, today is not the day i die!

[@RJB_TV]

Arty getting chills watching two of my favorite players go at it gives me chills.

[@zirene5237]

Artosis gets chills really often.

[@FlymanMS]

@@zirene5237 well maybe it’s because his house heating is on minimum

[@fatemakeus]

Protos can do anything with it’s race ….haha

[@JoshButterballs]

batchest

[@mojoflex3146]

I’m not sure about ghosts or wraiths against carriers, could go either way? I would liked to have seen at least an emp go down, it’s a very efficient way to drop those shields when the carriers seem un afraid to engage with gols

[@justincronkright5025]

2 - 1 health reavers... that's, even if aspects of a game are poor. Just getting to that one/singular situation is already a beautiful & nerve-wracking journey!

[@user-ro2nn7lt3r]

I'm watching this currently so can't comment on the whole game but the scv glitching through a pylon off of some repair shit and immediately starting a turret has to be a pimpest play somehow:D

just a wonderful match

[@chuckbowie5833]

Thanks for the content RT.

[@XJ9LoL]

terrant lost at 14:35 - if he just pulled back and waited for more goliaths he would have been fine.

[@zeddpilsner4]

Great early game👍. The drop at 12:35 was wack. quite the gamble gamble. When I saw the carriers, it got me wondering why dont we ever see shield batteries back at home for a top up? Im betting that it is the same kind of decision as do i repair science vessels in a TvZ matchup with marine medic or not.

[@linkernick5379]

Yeah, the properly positioned batteries can stop vultures away as well.

[@FlymanMS]

What a beautiful game, love Ample’s early defence and push, he was definitely setting the tone until typical scumbag protoss (deserved the title with initial gas steal) pulled out the trump card and abused the terrain. Based off style and resolve Ample won in my eyes.

[@fredd3.14]

lmao

[@deekay5611]

His early micro was trash. Had a much harder time defending 2 zeals and a probe than his pro Terran colleagues ever do. That’s why his CC was SO late, and as arty pointed out, that dictates the game at this level of PvT. Also, ample’s second push out (well after carriers were scanned) was poorly timed and executed. Are carriers very strong on this map? Yes. Would flash have easily won? Obviously. Overall, ample’s play left a lot to be desired for a veteran Terran.

[@jerrikko3379]

I know that it probably nets you more views but i wanted to give my thoughts on the thumbnail here, the carriers being shown kinda took away the tension of the early game, because I already know that ample survives the zealots with minimal damage and that motive survives the 3 fact

[@ilovetoo7009]

Wouldn't seeing a 24 min video do that?

[@lambda6736]

"juicing those goons"... Great cast!

[@charlieblade1232]

I lol’d when he said that ^_^

[@csucskos]

If I remember correctly you can deny the second gas steal if you position an SCV at the top side of the gas. Ample did not do it but it's something to consider because getting the gas restealed is devastating.

[@leeva93]

That’s sc2 defense for a gas steal which is a implemented feature. In bw the only way to stop a gas steal is to have your own on top of it.

[@fredd3.14]

havent watched yet, but been impressed with motive. feel like it should be easy going for him

[@Dziaji]

Too bad he doesn't know how to play against carriers. His early game was epic.

[@jelle9649]

Love the casting Artosis, but please STOP giving away match information in the video thumbnail. It spoils a lot of the fun watching

[@Dumbledorker]

Artosis! Please don't spoil the games with the titles/thumbnails! Ruins a lot of the fun of a 20 minute game :D Love the casts keep it up

[@fatemakeus]

I really don’t think lockdown is a bad option when Terran deal with carriers …just like Zerg using broodling to counter siege tanks …because 1 lockdown garuantee to kill 1 carrier…you must keep the carrier count low

[@FlymanMS]

You can't really keep it low unless you are on offense and if you are on offense within reach of Carrier production that means you are already at the enemy base and dominating the game. Lockdown is good for single carrier but a good player always make packs and macro them well so it's impossible to land a hit with Ghost. Not to mention how most Ghost builds are not optimised to high level game.

[@Dziaji]

I agree. If you make 3 ghosts and then bank up a little energy, you can kill 6 carriers with lockdown, and that's like 1500 gas worth of protoss. Another thing ample dropped the ball on is when he had enough goliaths to make the carriers run away, you want to let them kill the base on the right, and rotate your army to the left, kill the 2 bases on the left and start expanding on the left yourself. Then when the carriers come, you rebuild the dead CC. You always want to go where the carriers aren't. Don't just sit there trying to kill interceptors and letting them mine enough minerals to replace them. That's what Ample did, and it isn't surprising he got chewed up.

[@stambe8605]

@@FlymanMS Actually you can keep it low or at least manageable. Lets say you have 2 ghost with cloak and lockdown ready at some point when toss was harassing the 3rd base of terran (which took a good chunk of the latter part of the game), where the terrain does not allow you to go up the ramp with all of your goliath army. You go up and you lock down 2 carriers which are pretty much staying stationary there moving up and down a little. There were 8 carriers there, you disable 2 and you are telling me toss wont shit himself and GTFO of there allowing you to kill the 2 you locked down. Thats just money in the bank killing 2 units each worth 550/250 for a total of 1100/500 with 2 units costing 50/150 and probably not even loosing 1 ghost in the process. Even if the Carriers stay there now you can kill interceptors much more easily due to now there being 16 less of them (due to 2 Carriers being locked down). Also having the threat of lockdown after toss sees it for the first time makes him much more timid in engaging in a spot without the support of his ground army of Goons/HTs/whatever. At 3 bases you have ample of gas to go ghosts without hurting your self much and at 4 base, which Ample had its pretty much free tech at this point. Whatever you do its much better than going pure Gols and loosing a long drawn out battle that always have a notified end . Go ghosts, wraiths with gols, even valks + gols is a good counter if you know what to do with dem Valks. I've always wondered why most pros are so stubborn in their ways, much less nowdays compared to the KESPA days.

[@Ziegfried82]

I agree that lockdown is a must have in this particular situation. He did a tank heavy mid game attack, managed to scan and see his opponent was learning very heavy into carriers...it was time to get ghosts. His upgrades weren't high enough on his mech to fight the carriers..the attempt to beat carrier with goliath was doomed to fail without a massive mistake with the carriers (like misclicking and flying right over the goliaths or something). Not sure if he would have had enough time to get 4 ghosts with lockdown before the carriers attacked but it would have been a much stronger play to take some of those carriers out of the fight than to sit there shooting interceptors.

[@windwindy5356]

I think wraith have see more success against carriers then ghosts really

[@vOddy75]

This map has very strong terrain for carriers

[@SanityDrop]

finally some decent 20m+ game also gas steal to carriers, classic

[@eZeero]

14:35 That's what she said.

[@mattfox5933]

Mass carriers is the absolute best thing ever! Couple arbiters and observers and ur guaranteed a win

[@BrokenSymetry]

I just hate how terrible for ample this situation was! 3:36

[@blazewarTV]

Love u arty

[@matthewjohnson9643]

Used to play this many years ago why did he not go lockdown against the carriers?

[@linkernick5379]

Yes, Carriers are OP when the opponent is not ready to them :-)

[@bOstik210]

Fantastic game, loved the back and forth. Goliaths seem so clunky and awkward against carriers, particularly defending those narrow little expansions. Would valks have helped?

[@alonzojohnson6597]

valkyrie is suppose to be the counter to carriers but they made it unbalanced by design.They dont do splash damage to interceptors.

[@FlymanMS]

@@alonzojohnson6597 iirc valks counter mutas (they were created for this purpose) and wraiths are actual carrier killers

[@alonzojohnson6597]

@@FlymanMS if it was only marines vs interceptors or wraith vs interceptors then yes it would counter it.But a shit ton of marines will pop in 1 second against 1 storm so they cant be used at all as a counter.And wraiths are also paper unit that will pop in seconds if protoss has a few observers alredy and will pop even faster if he has some corsair with him.All of these are just gamble tactics and based on luck.Goliath is the only thing that has some chance to fight back.

[@spaceorbison]

I don't understand why they do use ghosts vs carrier

[@jamescpalmer]

Arty I like laughing and watching your stream as you play against the ladders bullshit but you're still the best caster in the world bro. You should cast different games.

[@shawnl1155]

Great game, wonder if a switch to terran air units would have helped?

[@LuckyStilet1]

Sometimes I asking myself, why don't you make 2-4 BC, just for light support and x2 yamato carriers over time?

[@Ziegfried82]

Wraiths can be amazing but only if you can snipe all the observers super fast. I've seen some games where high skill terrans pull that off.

[@attention_shopping]

gg. so close. glad toss won

[@SolarPlayer]

guys if the protoss player is up 170 supply to 100 while blundering full shuttles for the lulz and also preparing carriers, that means the carriers aren't the problem. You could literally remove carriers from the game and the result of this game wouldn't be any different if the terran player was wasting money on wraith, ghost or BC tech while attacking he would have had even less units and died faster

[@Motoko1134]

love to see carriers

[@LuckyStilet1]

Sometimes I asking myself, why don't you make 2-4 BC, just for light support and x2 yamato carriers over time?

[@stambe8605]

You need minimum of 4 fully saturated bases to even think of going BCs, 5 bases being optimal for like 3-4 starport BCs + your normal ground army which should include ALOT of Goliaths as well. Otherwise BCs actually beat Carriers cost for cost and can chase them if they get the jump on them and kill 1-2 before the Carriers manage to outrun them. You can also Yamato them with impunity from time to time and gain value long term for your BCs. But its very rare for a terran to have 5 working secured bases and the game being at a stalemate at that point - either T is pushing the P and need 12+ facts spewing units to crush the P or you are in a defensive position trying to fortify with turrets and build a shit ton of Gols to get the Carriers of your back.

[@skykur]

@@stambe8605 BC’s get wrecked by stasis. It’s not a viable move at all in high play

[@stambe8605]

@@skykur They do get wrecked by stasis, thats why you dont see them vs toss on top of being super expensive and impossible to find either the money or time to get them involved, but they do beat carriers anyway. Ive seen alot of Fastest games where its boils down at Carriers vs BCs and its surprisingly funny to see that BC beat Carriers quite soundly, sometimes even if there Arbs and Vessels involed to try to counter each other. DAs also crush BCs bad with Feedback and Mind Control, but thats a strat for money maps for the reasons mentioned above :)

[@QCLagstone]

In an ideal scenario, battlecruisers do quite well against carriers, and in fastest map possible it probably does happen. The key difference is another resource that terran is running low on against carriers: time. Terran play against carriers revolves around pushing them before they get a significant amount of carriers, the moment 6 carriers show up at one of your bases, they can trade incredibly effectively whilst still being effective with the ground army, and also taking expansions. Going battlecruisers is so resource intensive and takes so long that it would guarantee overwhelming carrier numbers, in conjunction with whatever else protoss wants.

[@LuckyStilet1]

@@stambe8605 dude, first two BC cost like 9 goliath with all tech. Often 9 goliath don't make difference in defence for a long time. And you just can't atack because of bad terrain on map.

[@toomuchinvigilation2419]

Making Carriers is a very useful talent toi have. It seems like a pretty cheap tactic, though.

[@stiltzy1534]

10:02 If I were Ample, I would have just instantly alt f4 and uninstall game lmao

[@CtrlAltDfeat]

Yup, carriers op

[@diegoalfonsosalgarsarmient8254]

Where are the valks or invisible wraiths?

[@xxXKogasaWe3dL0rd420Xxx]

Balls suck against carriers they don’t shoot fast enough

[@Ziegfried82]

Valks don't beat carriers. I don't think the splash works on the interceptors..wraiths though those could have worked. Would have been smarter than trying to use goliaths IMO cause it's not like he had good mech upgrades going.

[@diegoalfonsosalgarsarmient8254]

@Ziegfried82 thanks for the response 👍. Also would have been great to see wraiths snipping observer-carriers and probes.

[@LORFCASTER]

gg

[@zakuma22]

Amazing how ghosts nor valkaries were not used at such pro games....

[@catharsis89]

Why isn’t lockdown used more often to counter mass carriers?

[@stambe8605]

Eventually pros will realize that Ghost are key and are quite cheap, when you have already build a Science Facility for your 2/1 upgrades anyway. You need Covert Ops, Cloak, Lockdown, 2 ghosts initially and maybe a 2nd barrack to build them in pairs. All of that costs 500/500 (including a 2nd Barracks) which is nothing when you have 3-4 bases already. You get 2 lockdowns and even if you land only one and kill that Carrier which cost 550/250 with full interceptors you've already pretty much gained back your investment and now you have an alternative way of keeping the Carriers numbers in check and makes the toss think twice of where he goes on the map and how he engages your army or harass your bases. Every time you lock down one carrier you just need to chase away the rest with targeting the interceptors making toss have no choice, but to leave the disabled carrier to die, otherwise the interceptor losses will be more costly than the one Carrier itself. Also if toss switches to Arbiters you already have a good and reliable way to stop them compared to EMP which can either miss completely(its a skill shot compared to the homing missile of ghost's lockdown) or hit the Arbiter after its casted Recall and even though it seems like you depleted its mana its still recalls the army due to a bug which makes the Arbiter spends its energy only after the 2nd part of the Recall is animated and not when you hit the recall button at your army.

[@charlescook5542]

Ghosts are garbage because of their long build up time. You can’t even build them to bank up energy until covert ops and even then you need multiple upgrades. Cloak is not gonna keep them alive with all the observers around. Lastly the way you use ghosts is similar to zerg using broodling with queens. You have to get vision of the targets then “clone” the spell with a group then remove one unit and keep setting spell targets and removing a unit in the group. The pros can do the cloning quickly the problem is once you set it you can’t give them additional commands because you won’t know which ghost is targeting which carrier; so you what hope your frail ghosts are gonna actually reach their lockdown target? Ghosts are not viable

[@GK-gc9cv]

Carriers may be op but the path to getting carriers isn't

[@wilted_kale]

juicin those goons

[@hoopstalkcentral]

Carriers = GG

[@waterboi4846]

best unit in broodwar's dark archon

[@thezeus18]

why not cloaked wraith carrier snipe

[@nafet]

Thought this was gonna be a defiler game :/

[@cpt.tryhard6554]

Still don't understand why terran don't make wraiths. It's so simple, cloak, scan, snipe observers, snipe carriers. I understand that one is under a lot of pressure at the time, and there is a lot of multi-tasking going on, but why headbutt goliaths through a wall.

[@Leonhart_93]

Cost of transition AND poor anti-ground attack. Like he had 10 factories already and ground upgrades and he also needed something with decent anti-ground attack. The goliath has higher stats and is cheaper, so it does work very well.

[@charlescook5542]

Observers are low priority the wraiths won’t shoot them with combat units around unless right clicking them. Wraiths have no durability once they’re visible so they only work when the carriers are rushed on 2 base and the protoss can’t afford enough observers initially. This game he had tons of resources before going carrier.

[@grouchomcgrouch4150]

Arty these Terran players are stealing your act. Nobody does salty Terran player like you but they're all trying and failing. Maybe you could charge them money to take classes from you on how to be salty and funny? Just food for thought, love the casts, the stream, everything.

[@qcdoomqc]

I wonder why Toss don't go Carriers every game tbh. I don't think I've ever seen a Toss lose unless he was already massively behind when trying to transition.

[@FlymanMS]

Carriers require careful micro and support and they are not that invincible on maps with more even terrain.

[@isaacsteele7986]

The same reason they attack into siege lines and lose their whole army needlessly, or the same reason they do many of the terrible plays they do. They can still win even if they fuck up. Z and especially T lose if they do things like that so they are forced to stop. Protoss players can be stupid and still win.

[@fredd3.14]

@@isaacsteele7986 Show me on the scv plushie where the dirty protoss touched you :(

[@grouchomcgrouch4150]

Because they cost so much in minerals, gas, supply and time. It takes so many resources and minutes for them to get going and it's really easy to die before you hit that critical mass. They are also really only viable against Terran. You'll see them sometimes in PvP but mostly it's too easy to die to goons and reavers before you can get enough carriers. Zerg have defilers to hard counter them with plague and dark swarm. That's why you don't see them every game.

[@BB72]

Carriers are OP on some maps the same way Mutas and Tanks are OP on some maps

[@canag0d]

Spoiler How the F does he not get a vessel? Talking about gaining value, 1 emp does massive damage to carriers.

[@christofincognito4530]

carries made me uninstall this game a couple of times

[@isaacsteele7986]

Everyone talks about how Protoss vs Terran is alot easier for the protoss, but if your good terran can make it work. Its just far harder for terran then protoss. But carriers are actually broken, as in Terran does not really have a counter to them. Wraiths get beaten by carriers using the hold position micro glitch, as well as the goon/storm/arbiter in any combination while fighting the carriers. Ghosts only have a range of 8 on lockdown and because the carriers stack they cant really lockdown every carrier at the same time unless their is a low number. Valkyrie does not work because the carriers retreat and recover their shields. And Battlecruiser takes so long to get into, that protoss would be on the unbeatable arbiter carrier comp by then. And all this theorycraft is forgetting the fact, that usually protoss just kills terran once they get a good carrier count anyway. If there was 1 change I was allowed to do to sc1 I would remove the carrier. Its only used in this matchup and is extremely broken. Its not like protosses need it to win either.

[@FlymanMS]

Also on maps with lots of cliffs and other inaccessible areas it's so easy to abuse Carrier micro. In fact Terran has the best air units overall, it's just hard for them to get the right amount and composition before other races use their advantage one way or another. However a proper combination if BCs, SVs, wraiths and valks is a tremendous sight to behold.

[@isaacsteele7986]

@@FlymanMS I do not know anything about pure island maps but I would not be surprised to see terran actually beating protoss on those maps. But that is a different scenario to the traditional type of ladder maps.

[@FlymanMS]

@@isaacsteele7986 Yeah island maps are highly Terran favored, probably the reason why we don't see them at all on tournaments. Island maps give Terran a so needed breather to grow and expand without fear of being killed by other races' tricks.

[@stambe8605]

You dont need to lock down every carrier with ghosts, just 1-2 every time the Carriers engage your army or attack a base. I just dont understand how people havent realized it yet. Maybe the pros will eventually figure that out, just as they figured that valks are actually a really good unit in both TvT vs mass wraiths and especially vs fast 2 hatch muta bulds and they were still good even back in classic Brood War with the sprite limit bug which tend to affect longer games with alot of supply or just having more than 8 valks which pros dont build even now in SCR where you have as much valks shooting at the same time as you want :). Wraiths dont get countered by Carriers if you know what you are doing with them - you either fight them invisible or stay out of range and kill interceptors with gols+wraith fire. If you are talking in engaging 8+ carriers with 10-12 Wraiths of course they are gonna loose in a straight fight. If you are talking about cost vs cost Wraiths shit on Carriers with or without the Hold,Stop,Hold spam micro trick, but that fight never happens in a real game anyway :)

[@skykur]

Marine medic hard counters carriers. But we don’t play this game in a vacuum. Everything has a trade-off

[@Gamerextra1029]

Carriers = Instant win

[@blazewarTV]

So protoss makes bad attacks all over the place but carriers are amazing

[@alonzojohnson6597]

sad after all those years they never balanced that stupid unit.Terran has no counter at all.valkyrie dont splash interceptors.Its depressing being a terran player who is A and can beat A and S sometimes but lose to D rank just because they make carrier and terran cant do anything.

[@leeva93]

Hard doubt on that A rank. No A/S rank player will lose to a D rank player in any non cheese match up. That’s like saying if art played Protoss and went carriers he’ll beat flash.

[@stambe8605]

@@leeva93 If you are a real A Terran and you go against D toss that is not a smurf, you can beat his Carriers or whatever he does with pure Tank + M&M if you want :) The skill difference is to big to even consider army compositions and strategy. Hell, you can probably off race as Zerg and crush him with a hydra all in.

[@worldermusic5214]

Artosis, please stop spoiling all the games in the thumbnail or personally I will be giving up on this channel of yours. No fun to watch without any of the tension. Haven't seen any other channel do such a bad job in that regard, spoiling most of the games you upload just by scrolling the thumbnails/titles.

[@thecurbdog123]

Terran needs a supply free ground defense. That would balance the game. Its the only race that doesn't get a supply free ground defense.

[@charlescook5542]

Supply depots, mines, and turrets do well enough for base defense besides terran always has less bases to defend.