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StarCraft is more "Real Time" than "Strategy"

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ArtosisTV

ArtosisTV

Күн бұрын

Пікірлер: 289
@judjudersawn2596
@judjudersawn2596 7 ай бұрын
He lives in a supply depo.
@aaronliedka7242
@aaronliedka7242 7 ай бұрын
That's definitely a refinery, look at those vents.
@recklessfire13
@recklessfire13 7 ай бұрын
Blink twice really fast if Dirty David has you hostage
@FlymanMS
@FlymanMS 7 ай бұрын
But it’s actually Invisible Man.
@Mateuz66
@Mateuz66 7 ай бұрын
He's so Fkin back.
@fancypants6062
@fancypants6062 7 ай бұрын
I love this style of video. No bullshit, no fluff, no filler, just get right to talking about important concepts and ideas. Well thought out, and actually able to speak in front of a camera without requiring 2 jump cuts per sentence.
@acheache8536
@acheache8536 7 ай бұрын
I feel like this video was a tape found on Arto's cold body
@AntiDoctor-cx2jd
@AntiDoctor-cx2jd 7 ай бұрын
He is momentarily separated from the frustration of trying to play brood war with that shit engine (relatively shit)
@aaabatteries9948
@aaabatteries9948 7 ай бұрын
Before watching the video, i'd like to point out that a lot of the "thinking" and "strategizing" we are supposed to do has been done by the pros. We just copy what they do without thinking too much about it. A lot of the things that we know now weren't as obvious when the game first came out, it took years and years of theorizing and experimentation to get to the understanding of the game that we have now.
@AntiDoctor-cx2jd
@AntiDoctor-cx2jd 7 ай бұрын
yeah and it's a massive mistake.
@aaabatteries9948
@aaabatteries9948 7 ай бұрын
@@AntiDoctor-cx2jd Well yeah when i started i just wanted to get good at the game so i watched guide after guide build order tutorial after BO tutorial, however now I mostly just play on my own. It can help you get started off but to truly have fun you have to figure out the game out on your own.
@codywotring8973
@codywotring8973 7 ай бұрын
Nah work smarter not harder. If its been figured out​ no need to waste time trying to break a new mold@@AntiDoctor-cx2jd
@AntiDoctor-cx2jd
@AntiDoctor-cx2jd 7 ай бұрын
@@aaabatteries9948 the main thing is that for pros, microability has a lot more value than it does for non pros. Like stalkers especially, nobody should ever build one who isn't a pro. Maybe 1 to defend against repears
@aaabatteries9948
@aaabatteries9948 7 ай бұрын
@@AntiDoctor-cx2jd Yeah and they usually wind up doing more damage to you than the opponent, like Congrats you lost 3 stalkers and sniped 4 marines and a maybe a cyclone or a tank while you are floating 2k minerals at home, aren't teching up, probe production has halted ages ago, supply blocked since the brood wars, no upgrades researching etc.. It's not worth it until you get to masters at least.
@The8bitFighter
@The8bitFighter 7 ай бұрын
Loving these new "Artosis theorycrafting" sessions. Can you do one where you cover the math and theory behind why BW Zergs don't saturate mineral lines? It's been years and years and I've never heard it well explained.
@Appletank8
@Appletank8 7 ай бұрын
armchair theory crafting, but i think it's some combination of: cheaper, low supply units, faster production per building, and generally being a base ahead. They don't need as many buildings or overlords to get army, so they don't burn as much resources on non combat stuff. Hatcheries provide production for every unit, add one tech structure and you can mass produce them on the spot. Being a base ahead means with equal workers, your mining is more efficient. Late game Zerg is also more gas limited than minerals, so saturating minerals is less of a priority. If they run out of gas, all they can make are Zerglings, which while high dps, are easily destroyed with splash.
@Iankill2121
@Iankill2121 7 ай бұрын
The title is correct, Starcraft is more about being fast than being strategic. You can know all the best build orders and what to do in every situation, but it doesn't matter if you're not fast enough to maintain production with your opponent. Even basic scouting out at the start being fast enough to micro your worker and keep that vision, while not missing anything in your BO isn't east to do. It's a strategic decision to scout, but how much information you get is dependent on your micro abilities.
@abdallahhakeem5185
@abdallahhakeem5185 7 ай бұрын
And because of this, low elo till like diamond, and even above, is all extremely geared towards quick cheeses or early all-ins Who’s going to bother going with a strategy where you macro up or go for gradual advantages when you get really low ‘returns on investment’ in low elo For most intermediate players, you can’t even manage the resources, bases, army, teching, supply past 2-3 bases properly. The scale gets too high and demanding, way too early and way too easily This is actually why I’m looking forward to Uncapped Games’ RTS, which should be reminiscent of SC2, but with a greater focus on the strategy behind the game, and less on the tedious micromanaging aspects. I think it will find a good balance that will cater RTS to a lot of the more mainstream players that way. I have high hopes
@Fimbu1vetr
@Fimbu1vetr 7 ай бұрын
Yeah you see so many players trying to play creatively to counter their opponent, but their build orders are so bad so the strategy doesn't matter much. Like I've seen this one streamer in platinum (trying to get diamond) be legit 30 seconds behind on a build order by 2:10. He makes pretty intelligent plays but the mechanics just aren't there so he doesn't improve
@Amoeby
@Amoeby 7 ай бұрын
@@Fimbu1vetr good mechanics are valuable in every RTS. People usually mock metal leagues but reaching platinum is already being better than approximately half of the players with plat 1 being around top-30%. So in fact he got carried to that by his strategic mindset. I don't understand what y'all guys complain about. Yes, you need to be good with your mechanics to be good at the game. The only problem I see is that some people like to mock players of intermediate skill like diamond and platinum thus making it seem that players in these leagues are total noobs which is not true.
@Fimbu1vetr
@Fimbu1vetr 7 ай бұрын
@@Amoeby yeah Im aware that plat 3 is top 50% and that streamer is pretty good overall. Just that he plays a lot and hed do a lot better by learning a build. But yeah definitely not a fan of the elitism in StarCraft where people act like anything below Masters is pretty bad
@jinjinBW
@jinjinBW 7 ай бұрын
you need basic mechanics to support your tactics. Pros really play in different planes than us since they are breaking down games in seconds/unit count/reading/unit movement but rest of us that are not pros, even well into masters/GM are doing surface level stuff. And that's fine. IRL sports are like this as well.
@gamechanger8908
@gamechanger8908 7 ай бұрын
Starcraft is like Competitive Chess. Like Chess which is known for "strategy" by most people who don't play it competitively, most people who get into the competitive scene boils down to 70% memorization of moves and 30% actual strategy once they reach the late game where if your opponent hasn't lost yet, game can get real spicy. It's why Bobby Fischer went crazy from Chess, he was at the top and memorized the game to the point he got tired of the same old shit.
@drenth27
@drenth27 7 ай бұрын
I remember Incontrol saying this forever ago. RIP the great one.
@transistor3115
@transistor3115 7 ай бұрын
Nah he sucked tbh
@logan27000
@logan27000 7 ай бұрын
He was a cool guy tho regardless of his pro skill ​@@transistor3115
@pyrothem
@pyrothem 7 ай бұрын
Wish he was here for the sc1 vs sc2 mod. The salt and quips would have been so good.
@tdring10681
@tdring10681 7 ай бұрын
@@pyrothem i never thought about this. incontrol+totalbiscuit doing shoutcraft kings in the sc evo mod would have been amazing RIP
@rocksparadox
@rocksparadox 7 ай бұрын
@@transistor3115 That's strange, ''tbh'' means to be honest, why would you not be honest about your OPINION? That seems r_e_tarded to me, ''ngl'' :>
@hilmiller5296
@hilmiller5296 7 ай бұрын
I wonder what is wrong with the camera Edit: It's called "banding" It's when the shutter speed is too fast for the frequency of the lighting. Slowing down the shutter speed or perhaps getting better quality lights will solve this. Like, "not pro video LED lights" are just going to blink really fast at 60hz, and if your camera is capturing frames very quickly, it catches the lights when they are emerging from princess Peach's mouth. Now Mario was back to his normal size, Mario wiped Peach's saliva out of his eyes, he thanked Peach for the mini mushroom he used...
@mortisthenecro
@mortisthenecro 7 ай бұрын
Gives SC1 briefing room vibes.
@Killercoldice22
@Killercoldice22 7 ай бұрын
Hey nice essay now keep it down will ya
@notevenbefore
@notevenbefore 7 ай бұрын
"... than strategy. Now, why am I bringing this up?" it would be a perfect video if it segued into "Well, I wanted to talk about why Rogue is the GOAT of SC2".
@CaptainWumbo
@CaptainWumbo 7 ай бұрын
It has always seemed to me that the difficulty of the mechanics of bw is precisely what makes many strategies interesting and possible. It's part of why we can have tension in the game because it is not just rock paper sissors. As mechanics improved over the history of the game maps had to change and strategies had to change. At a smaller timescale people get mechanically very good at one meta and it opens a window to strategically exploiting that with an interesting tradeoff between what you're mechanically best at and what will give you an edge in a different way. I don't know if that makes sense to anyone else but I think if you take away the mechanics you get chess's 40 opening moves of theory, which we never get in BW because skill is dynamic and changes depending on game circumstances.
@jinjinBW
@jinjinBW 7 ай бұрын
we saw with Snow vs Bisu Game 3 on ASL S17 on this really on big stage on current trend of metagame in BW - age old question of macro vs micro has slipped into micro territory for past year or so and it showed up really hard in this ASL. Bisu and snow did same build, but Bisu chose to focus on his macro and at points in game, was 20+ supply ahead, 4 reaver vs 2 reaver ect, but Snow was able to wiggle out of it by focusing wholely on his micro/army positioning against a much bigger army (while having 5 probes qued on nexus and 5 idle workers) Everyone thought Bisu was winning until he just wasnt and started trading really badly vs superior micro and positioning.
@carismo9502
@carismo9502 7 ай бұрын
I understand topics like this might be obvious to the seasoned SC players/fans, but I always appreciate the "philosophy" behind RTS subjects
@sleeper1855
@sleeper1855 7 ай бұрын
On the noobie type questions like "what do I use to beat X composition?" it's not just noobs wanting a silver-bullet strategy that's guaranteed to win, but understanding what they should even be doing in such a situation. "Play faster" isn't really useful advice if you don't know where you're going.
@Appletank8
@Appletank8 7 ай бұрын
Well, the thing with mass Carriers is that it takes ages and a significant investment to reach, so just making an army and attacking earlier, if the P player isn't really harassing you, is what you need to do. Like, if I have only one base 10 minutes in and floating 5000 resources, nothing I do at that point is going to suddenly solve the problem of 4 Carriers waltzing in.
@Appletank8
@Appletank8 7 ай бұрын
Heck, just constantly making marines and running them in is enough dps to win a lot of low level games, if you keep spending your income. Same with Zealots/Stalkers or Zergling/Roach
@EtaCarinaeSC
@EtaCarinaeSC 7 ай бұрын
The losses are indeed. real time
@kampkrieger
@kampkrieger 7 ай бұрын
Well here is what I think: You totally went off topic here, your title says "StarCraft is more "Real Time" than "Strategy"", but you discussed tournament types and then talked about who can play which one best. My teacher would give me an F for that.
@Lightprayer
@Lightprayer 7 ай бұрын
Should have known it was another stealth goat video
@magicalelvishman
@magicalelvishman 7 ай бұрын
I love preparation tournaments and agree with your points about them. What I care very little about as a viewer is whether a tournament is live or online. It's tough when you're like "all that really counts is live preparation tournaments" because that functionally means you've got to live in South Korea, and I don't know if that's a viable way forward for the SC2 scene. I'd like to see online preparation tournaments with the motivational drive and prestige of a substantial prize pool. It would be great if all SC2 players lived in the same area and could get together regularly for live preparation tournaments, but I don't think it's totally fair to define living in Korea as the sole path to compete in SC2 as a strategy game at the highest level.
@proxyjan
@proxyjan 7 ай бұрын
these series feels like those video footages you find in horror games from characters in the past.
@razorbackblood06
@razorbackblood06 7 ай бұрын
I remember once when I were in silver league, my opponent was mostly massing vikings. I responded to this by building pylons and cannons at his third expo to bait him into landing his vikings. The moment he inevitably took the bait, I jumped on the vulnerable vikings with void rays. You almost never see traps set like that in SC.
@ryanlutes9833
@ryanlutes9833 7 ай бұрын
it absolutely is more time based. Even amongst other RTS games like Age of Empires 2, the APM requirement for a high-level Brood War player is relatively high. That's not necessarily a good or bad thing, just not for everyone. I enjoy watching SC but not really playing it; meanwhile I have like 5K hours in DOTA. You get to experience a similar game without as much multitasking. Timing is a factor, but generally the team that drafts a better lineup and makes the smarter plays is more important than just being fast. Unfortunately, that also means you have to rely on your teammates. I think in order for an RTS to appeal to as many people as possible, the pace of the game needs to be reasonable for new players or people who may not have a lot of time to dedicate to developing the muscle memory. I'm not saying it needs to be completely catered to casuals, but it shouldn't feel so much like an instant loss when you make a small mistake in execution or just have bad luck with openings. And it's something I see a lot of unnecessary pushback over from Starcraft players in particular. I think what we've seen of Stormgate so far has been pretty great in that regard. Unit production and resource rates are snappy but not so fast they're hard to keep up with, at least not until very late in a match. Spells and creep camp bonuses in particular give a lot of room for players to adapt to what's happening instead of being locked in to their build too much.
@JohnSmith-sk7cg
@JohnSmith-sk7cg 7 ай бұрын
I think the real secret sauce of Starcraft's popularity was how interwoven USMs and custom maps were into the game, along with dropping you straight into the chatrooms. Starcraft 1 was a creator platform with a social element to it that happened to come with a really good RTS game.
@people3865
@people3865 7 ай бұрын
Ease of play is 💯 what's killing the genre. You may not be great, but compared to SC2 a brand new DOTA player would do ok. A brand new SC2 player would be so confused, it wouldn't even resemble a game.
@Amoeby
@Amoeby 7 ай бұрын
@@people3865 what? DOTA has a much higher skill floor that SC2 imo. The amount of items, heroes and their skills is immense and that's without macro aspects. Not to mention that you also partially rely on your teammates in every match.
@people3865
@people3865 7 ай бұрын
@@Amoeby It isn't even comparable honestly. I'm surprised someone is even arguing that any MOBA is more difficult than SC2 lol
@Amoeby
@Amoeby 7 ай бұрын
@@people3865 that's SC2 elitism at its peak.
@kulls13
@kulls13 7 ай бұрын
I enjoy these discussions about these lesser discussed variables in StarCraft. We often see build vs build, race vs race, or player vs player discussions. But I've never heard this weekend tournament vs long form tournament discussions before. Quite interesting.
@nathanpetrich7309
@nathanpetrich7309 7 ай бұрын
Yes, it is more real time than strategy because if your macro/build is efficient and fast, you can easily win just by having way more units, even if the trades aren't efficient. There's a reason why every super popular strategy game in history is turn based. I'm talking about Chess, Go, Shogi, etc. When you play Speed Chess, weaker strategies become way more viable entirely because the opponent has less time to analyze strategy.
@MapOfTheLost
@MapOfTheLost 7 ай бұрын
I'm glad you're making a video about this because I think a lot of people put way too much emphasis on the "strategy" part of RTS. Strategy alone being the deciding factor would make for an incredibly boring game to both play and watch. Execution and adaptation in real time is what makes these games so interesting. If people want a game that is primarily about strategy they should be playing chess, not RTS.
@xenophontis8178
@xenophontis8178 7 ай бұрын
Execution and adaptation in real time is also what made fast formats like Blitz and Bullet rise in popularity in chess. It is just more interesting and thrilling to play for most people
@louis-etiennebelangergagno5514
@louis-etiennebelangergagno5514 7 ай бұрын
I don't know why, but the video kinda flickers a bit. I know you mentioned you changed some settings, something is wrong
@animusfault
@animusfault 7 ай бұрын
It's his camera framerate and lighting pwm.
@bahadirozer
@bahadirozer 7 ай бұрын
it's about camera shutter speed in synch with light
@animusfault
@animusfault 7 ай бұрын
@@bahadirozer You're right. Shutter speed is the proper term. Not sure why I said framerate as I regularly use my mirrorless camera and have to enable anti-flicker for the shutter speed on it.
@kinggrantking
@kinggrantking 7 ай бұрын
ALSO in addition to weekend tournaments and prep tournaments there used to be another (insanely popular) format in TEAM LEAGUES. Proleague was by far the most popular league in Starcraft for a long time, and it was yet another format wherein you knew which team you were facing but not always which player, which maps, or how many times you may have to play. Some players (like her0) overperformed in team leagues vs GSL whereas with other players like Life it was the other way around. And yes, Maru was also, by far, the greatest team format player of all time.
@anthonykneipiii4562
@anthonykneipiii4562 7 ай бұрын
10:50 - 11:10 The thing that would help anyone here would be map vision of what your opponent is doing. And that exact thing is EXACTLY what EGIdra was complaining about (concerning zerg). Having vision of your opponent and being able to see unit composition causes a calculated reaction that can help someone make a unit composition to counter an opponent’s choices. The part where strategy comes in is a unit composition that can perform well over various terrain and overtake an opposing force with units that would have been considered inferior and the actual place of engagement, but that same composition absolutely wrecks infrastructure - with such an idea, the person making these things will be taking two steps for every one their opponent makes, and gains an advantage in time management. There are ways to supplement time management with available resources and army size, but being able to see what your opponent is doing and then making a move that not only secures your position but also attacks/threatens your opposition’s stance is obviously ideal.
@disieh
@disieh 7 ай бұрын
I still maintain that Starcraft (both BW and SC2) are rhythm games (think guitar hero, DDR, rocksmith, etc...) first, strategy games second. There was a Day[9] video recently where he said how good it felt once you learn the rhythm of macroing, unit movement, mouse movement, hotkeys and all the "mechanical" stuff. I agree 100% with that, it's what keeps me playing starcraft. Strategy comes only after your brain stops being overloaded by the mechanics and you start to have brain power to think what you're doing vs what opponent is doing. The preparation vs weekend strategy difference is a valid one. I think since in EU its not at all feasible to organize anything but weekend tournaments, all EU players tend to play in a similar defensive, "solid" style. Everybody tends to play like Serral, but Serral just does it better than everybody. Also I think ladder being the main tool for practice contributes to this. You kinda have to find a solid strategy when you don't know the next opponent. Would be cool if somebody would take a chance and organize a preparation-heavy tournament in EU. It would be a cool test to see would the strategies converge towards what you see in GSL or something different. That being said, I think GSL consisting of pretty much the same 16 players for last I don't know even how many years have taken a lot of the unexpectedness you used to see 2013-2016. In a way, while weekend tournaments tend to produce a lot of similar games, GSL isn't immune to this either.
@tdring10681
@tdring10681 7 ай бұрын
spot on about the rhythm game aspect I wonder if an online tournament with a big enough prize pool would work but perhaps not I agree with the lack of variance for gsl as well especially recently I miss having players like zoun armani etc that would just get in sometimes I think the lower prize pool unfortunately makes it hard for newer players to break into the round of 16
@KageManTV
@KageManTV 7 ай бұрын
Really enjoyed the insights but the argument wasn’t clear how does it translate to a real time Game if you meant reactive for StarCraft in its entirety ? It seems like there are two types of StarCraft and the more weekend tournaments the more reactive/real time the gameplay style?
@TrampyPulsar
@TrampyPulsar 7 ай бұрын
I do agree. too dependant on build orders than strategy. There aren't enough dynamics to make you plan around, you pretty much know the enemies timings and if you go late enough you pretty much know if you're going to win or lose based entirely on who mined more minerals.
@JilteredGeneration1
@JilteredGeneration1 7 ай бұрын
There's probably a good comparison with chess here, whether the comparison is between speed/bullet and regular, or even when they hold their chess championship and it's a week+ long event between two people with shifting metas, openings and mind games. It's certainly not to take away from the skill required to play the different formats but there is undoubtedly different skills and strategies that evolve within the constraints of different formats of tournaments. I know at least for the world championships the participants usually gather teams of 5+ pros to workshop and theorize strategies for all the different days, all against this one other opponent and it's honestly so cool to see those strategies evolve, but if the tournament ends in tied points they end up playing games of bullet or speed or whatever it's called and you see a completely different demeanor and strategy and skill set which can make those situations all the more exciting.
@blackepiphany100
@blackepiphany100 7 ай бұрын
How do you think an online preparation tournament would fare in the foreign scene?
@jinjinBW
@jinjinBW 7 ай бұрын
There's reason people say macro to masters and other stuff like that. In end of the day, to play the game, you need sufficient mechanical skill (like real sports) to "really" play the sports. You aren't going to go deep in positioning/off the ball movement, mind games on attacker vs defender in sports without having basic skills. Same way in SC. You can make up for lack of mechanics (on-the-ball talent) w/ game reading/maneuvering, but in end of the day, easiest way to "improve" your overall skill level is to work on your basic mechanics and skills, hence people tell you to macro. Once you hit a wall where improving your macro isn't as easy to improve as other stuff, you can move on, but you aren't really hitting that til high masters. It's much, MUCH easier to just practice mechanics vs ai as it is repeatable fast paced than learn to recognize scouting/patterns/incomplete information. Hence only really tiny % of people can really start playing the game for real, and even then, it's long long way from pro level (GMPro is way higher skill gap than from bronze to GM, ect - not win%, but all the cumulative knowledge/skill/tightness in timing ect)
@hmmmm1324
@hmmmm1324 7 ай бұрын
I agree - but I think that the weekend tournament has to be the truly global tournament. While it's true that preparation tourneys can offer a different feed (and one that I personally really enjoy) the logistics of having to live within 2 hours of each other in the same place makes them extremely limited. The only truly global tournament format is one where the best players in the world can come together in a short space of time. It is similar to correspondence chess - you can get better games than over the board because players have essentially as long as they like for every move, but as a tournament format it is simply too impractical to be used to determine the world champion.
@xenophontis8178
@xenophontis8178 7 ай бұрын
I wrote a longass text but who cares so Tldr In chess it is practical to determine the world champ through classical, bc that's the game. BUT there is also a Blitz world champion. So it is important to differ. And since it's two different formats, you can say X is the best classical and Y the best Blitz player. Is the classical Player a better chess player? In classical, yes. In Blitz, no. And I haven't thought everything through to say if it has any meaning to argue which format is "worth more".
@sanctuarygaming4984
@sanctuarygaming4984 7 ай бұрын
There could be online prep tournaments. If the prize pool large enough we could just watch Maru and Serral do a best of 7 once a year. The main reason chess is still done OTB in the post covid world is anti cheating measures.
@xenophontis8178
@xenophontis8178 7 ай бұрын
@@sanctuarygaming4984 Good point, latency is a thing nonetheless. When online preps are held (which would be nice and all, won't happen bc who puts money in pricepools) they are followed by the latency arguments along the line "X won/lost because latency" and whether or not players can show their true skill playing on higher latency, which is why offline tourneys are so important for Esports
@samrands5967
@samrands5967 7 ай бұрын
Did stats win an ASL or did RT mix up stats and rain?
@じょせふ-v2z
@じょせふ-v2z 7 ай бұрын
"dont stop making SCV's" the answer to every problem
@upsidedownsundae4763
@upsidedownsundae4763 7 ай бұрын
Was hoping it would be a 10 minute video on Wario's toenail smoothie
@PJJ196
@PJJ196 7 ай бұрын
How do I stop a maxed army of carriers? Arty: make Goliaths the whole time and let them get whittled down over 15 minutes then rage 😂. Love you arty :)))
@xTobsecretx
@xTobsecretx 7 ай бұрын
What I think? I think the last video you made on this must have done numbers so now you’re making another one. Good for you! Keep em coming!
@mglegacy012
@mglegacy012 7 ай бұрын
I don’t really think you can say Maru is better than Serral at preparation based tournaments. I mean, he’s won more, but he also plays more. Every time they play a tournament together, Serral does better or just flat out wins. And Serral beat Maru in a preparation tournament. I really think Serral would stomp GSL if he played. The guy is a machine
@heavycritic9554
@heavycritic9554 7 ай бұрын
4:20 People talking about how the races can only be played a particular way, are typically lower-ranked players who hear about the "current meta" and think it's the way the game is "supposed to be played". Someone should take those people aside, sit them down and calmly explain to them that the "meta" is the way the *_pros_* are *_currently_* playing the game, and that it doesn't affect anyone outside the pro sphere.
@quanchi371
@quanchi371 7 ай бұрын
i remember hearing a similar concept from Day[9] a time ago...went something like mechanics come first, only then do you get to do the cool strategies.
@The8bitFighter
@The8bitFighter 7 ай бұрын
probes and pylons, probes and pylons, probes and pylons
@menohomo7716
@menohomo7716 7 ай бұрын
Starcraft 2 isn't "more real time than strategy". SC2 baits people into thinking the units "countering" each others is the "strategy" aspect, but this is just a rock paper scissor type game and the optimal "strategy" in that respect is whatever is the nash equilibrium. In fact, all the actual strategy, if there is any, revolve around where you spend your limited attention. So who are the best players in the game? those who can juggle the best & those who better understand where the nash equilibrium actually is, and punish their opponent for being far from it.
@rocksparadox
@rocksparadox 7 ай бұрын
It really is mostly a juggling simulator, knowing when to have AA ready versus knowing when NOT to build it because the opponent is doing a ground offensive instead of air harassment could be called ''basic strategy/knowledge''. Being able to manage basic units on 2 or 3 fronts usually is more effective than having a super complex composition or formation of units. It's probably closer to a binomial distribution for the ''outcomes of optimal countering strategies'' where in most cases the ''middle ground choices fare better than either cheese or greed extreme'' than a game theory equilibrium since it's usually not just a simplistic ''choice A beats B unless'' because physical ability has such a huge influence on the outcome of clashes.
@asdfqwerty14587
@asdfqwerty14587 7 ай бұрын
It absolutely is. There were 2 videos where uThermal played a team game with a silver league player vs. opponents of each rank, one of the videos was with a silver league player doing all of the macro (ie. the silver league player builds all the units with no instruction or preparation and uThermal just controls the army without communicating with his teammate). He beat a grandmaster player in that video. Then later he had a 2nd video where he was doing all of the macro and the silver league player was controlling the army.. the video ended with him losing to a diamond league player. Now, you could argue that that's not necessarily exactly the same thing as strategy vs. mechanics because not all micro is mechanics and not all macro is strategy.. but still, it clearly shows that how you control your units is overwhelmingly more important than what strategy you're using.
@zackrodriguez6653
@zackrodriguez6653 7 ай бұрын
Ist es over fur mich?
@CoNteMpTone
@CoNteMpTone 7 ай бұрын
As a pro League of Legends Coach, this insight about when offensive and defensive plays are good respectively was eyeopening.
@luckygozer
@luckygozer 7 ай бұрын
I find this a fascinating topic. However it's interesting you mention the idea of defensive play being better without preparation. Intuitively I would almost assume the opposite very strong timing attacks being the best way to play weekend tournaments. If you catch your opponent off guard they will just die. If their response isn't entirely correct they just die. Playing shorter games is also probably a nice benefit if you have to play a lot of them in a row. It's hard to know for sure since most of what we see I think just depends on the style the players that are successful tend to prefer. And also what the majority of other players tend to do ofcourse. If you know everyone else is aggressive maybe just being solid defensive player works out better.
@alexmorse1718
@alexmorse1718 7 ай бұрын
I've been rrally liking these prerecorded videos you've been doing lately. A lot better than the stream content (though there's certainly a lot of gold in those, too).
@USALibertarian
@USALibertarian 7 ай бұрын
It's only strategy when you can hit pro level APM, optimize your build tailored to the map and survive the harassment and all-ins. Even then the "strategic" decisions are a distant second to game mechanics.
@no_nameyouknow
@no_nameyouknow 7 ай бұрын
You still need the strategy. It's just the strategy is a lot easier to understand, the execution is very difficult.
@MapOfTheLost
@MapOfTheLost 7 ай бұрын
if you go command center first and they double proxy gateway it doesn't matter how fast your APM is, your ass is dead. flash could lose to my grandma in a situation like that, and there's quite a few of those in starcraft and RTS in general.
@iamLI3
@iamLI3 7 ай бұрын
@@MapOfTheLost coin flips aren't strategy also flash would win your described scenario
@SsSHardt
@SsSHardt 7 ай бұрын
Nope the idea was that it's strategy when you you get the time to prepare for your opponents and not when you play the same opening and defensive setup as the best defensive race 30 times in a row. Didn't you listen to the video?
@rocksparadox
@rocksparadox 7 ай бұрын
@@no_nameyouknow Compared to complete information games the ''strategy'' in RTS games in general and SC specifically is basicb!tch level ''scout air, get anti air, scout AOE dmg, split''.
@meguemil8542
@meguemil8542 7 ай бұрын
I really like this video format. Hope you can do more about sc bw talking about different topics. I love listening to your opinion given your expertise and passion on the game
@Shield_Battery
@Shield_Battery 7 ай бұрын
I mean. What else can I say but THANK YOU. Always appreciate validation when we share a position, but you bring in the unassailable points, when I only have time for them hottake soundbytes. Redirecting the argument from player advantages from a racial characteristics of strategic and unit robustness perspective, to the more broadly PLAYSTYLE based argument for individual success in particular tournament styles, *Chefs Kiss. GuMiHo as clear specific example highlighting his switching preference switching between Mech and Bio, was so money. And contrasting Stats vs Her0 was excellent to show it's not purely a racial (Zerg, Protoss, Terran) bias as well I can't wait til Trap and Rogue get back into form, but I'll miss Dark when he's up for service, He was the epitome of Zerg flipping a switch, JD is of course the historical standard, but Dark has larval inject.
@StadiumofLOLMAPS
@StadiumofLOLMAPS 7 ай бұрын
I got into masters with great mechanics, but basically no good strategy / build orders. getting any higher than that takes a lot more strategy
@PompousDingo
@PompousDingo 7 ай бұрын
Liked this kind of video! Would be interested in comparing Starcraft to other games and see how they compare in the "Realtime to strategy" balance, and what they do differently that affects that balance.
@MTmitetc
@MTmitetc 7 ай бұрын
I would conclude completely the opposite. If you are reliant on certain timing attacks or rushes and lose if they fail, then you are at a disadvantage when the opponent can look at your strategies and prepare. You could go far in a weekend tournament with some new timings that are off-meta, or nobody realizing you cheese all the time, but then lose in a preparation tournament. It's not that "strategy" matters more than "real-time" in one or the other, it's that if one player has many strategies to choose from and the other is more reactive with fewer viable choices, then less prior knowledge favors the player with more strategic space.
@SsSHardt
@SsSHardt 7 ай бұрын
You are wrong though.. It's always been that defensive zergs have a huge advantage in weekend cups. Go home and read and come back
@canadianbakn
@canadianbakn 7 ай бұрын
This feels more addressed at SC2 than brood war right? Flash made an entire career out of just defending everything even with people preparing forever for him. And yes, he was also known to throw in timing attacks and cheeses, and yes I'm talking about flash here who is just on a completely different level, but I do think players can find success with that style even in preparation tournaments.
@canadianbakn
@canadianbakn 7 ай бұрын
I think I'm just a little confused by this video because brood war is so much more mechanically demanding than SC2 and this thesis makes more sense applied there but we're just talking about SC2...
@cameronielsen
@cameronielsen 7 ай бұрын
Yes but most BW players already understand this, it’s why they prefer BW.
@kudorgyozo
@kudorgyozo 7 ай бұрын
I remember when I was a kid we were playing starcraft with friends in pc-gaming cafes (internet cafes without the internet) and didn't know how to play the game well so it was waaay less micro intensive and we were mostly doing random stuff, stuff that looked cool. We didn't play on battle-net with others so we didn't know what the "meta" was. Because of this game was a lot more fun for me BEFORE we knew how to play the game efficiently. After I realized I needed to micro a lot more, there are build orders, preferred units, unit compositions, and you have to actually spend your money efficiently, I lost most of my interest in actually playing the game.
@LeicaFleury
@LeicaFleury 7 ай бұрын
MORE DISCUSSION VIDEOS PLS I love just listening to you
@MrShadowbite
@MrShadowbite 7 ай бұрын
You are absolutely right. I remember absolutely hating dealing with super mass muta. It felt so unfair and hard to deal with. But honestly it was my fault for letting them build up that amount of mass mutas.
@Draconicha
@Draconicha 7 ай бұрын
pretty accurate, I was chatting about reynor loss and his lack of preparation and strats for these kind of tournaments like gsl, basically he plays the same as ranked, thats why he loss
@fakename9500
@fakename9500 7 ай бұрын
Great info I hadn't thought about it like that.
@novitrix9671
@novitrix9671 7 ай бұрын
Thank you for your insights. Respectfully I kinda mentally tuned out past the 8:30minute mark.
@brianviktor8212
@brianviktor8212 7 ай бұрын
I'd look at this outside of the realm of pros. Think about this this way: In SC2, what would benefit you more: Having +25% APM or having a 25% better strategy? The problem is that the former guarantees you are better if you pursue standard builds, while the latter still leaves you vulnerable to worker harassment, surprises that require you to react in
@Luka-ft1vv
@Luka-ft1vv 7 ай бұрын
I feel like the title wanted to address one topic, while the video mostly talked about a completely different topic. Yeah preparation and build order you bring is a part of it, but the discussion should've been about APM/Reaction Time VS Good Strategic Depth
@EB-bl6cc
@EB-bl6cc 7 ай бұрын
So when you look at games/sports/pretty much anything, there's a rule that if you slow things down, that introduces more opportunity for strategy (and there are very few exceptions to this). A great example is American football. This probably won't play well to people not from the US, but to those intimate with multiple sports they know that American football is actually the most strategically complex sport by a wide margin - no other major sport comes even *remotely* close. There's a few reasons for this, but the biggest is that play isn't continuous. You have plays that stop and then the guys have to line up again and you have a small break which allows the coaches and players to have small chess matches between each other. If you don't believe me, go listen to any NFL QB or coordinator or safety/linebacker talk in-depth about the game and its strategies. It will absolutely blow your mind how complex it is. But anyway, without the break in action that American football has, it would be way less complex and more like rugby (which isn't completely mindless, of course, but has much less strategy) because there's simply no time to plan and consider all the different moves. I believe this rule can be applied to Starcraft as well. The game is moving SO fast and has so many things going on all at once that inevitably it becomes way more about speed and less about strategy. Strategy can win the day in some situations given two players of relatively equal speed but if one guy has 3x the APM of the opponent he probably isn't dropping many games. I think if you made a simple change and made everyone play Starcraft on 0.5x speed it would absolutely make it more strategic. I'm not saying that we should do this, but I do think it would have that effect. Rule can be applied to chess as well. Unless you consider some of the absolute gods like Carlsen/etc. you're not seeing 3 piece sacrifices that somehow lead to a magical mate very often in blitz chess, but it does happen in standard where there's more time to think. Blitz is more about just having very solid fundamentals/endgame and not making mistakes. So clearly I agree that prep-based tourneys require more strategy than weekend tourneys, since it's a similar concept. You have time to consider more factors and prepare all sorts of different strategies, whereas weekend tourneys you're just trying to have a handful of general good builds and not make mechanical mistakes. That isn't to say that weekend tourneys don't require skill, but it's a more mechanical/consistency-based skillset.
@SC2_Alexandros
@SC2_Alexandros 7 ай бұрын
Could have just said "of course the importance of real-time is going to pick up and keep increasing, once everyone knows the possible strategies."
@Rikardiho
@Rikardiho 7 ай бұрын
I just went back to sf1 and playing campaign rn sooo sick. I have never played sf2 so hope it's a step up 😊
@Guildelin
@Guildelin 7 ай бұрын
The Reynor example I really dont think is a good one as generally even for weekend tournaments opening groups are announced way ahead of time. And he's dropped super early from the few tournaments.
@neochance
@neochance 7 ай бұрын
Prep is a secondary skill that can give you an advantage or level the playing field between two players. It's important and I don't mean to downplay the importance of it, but if you NEED to prep to beat a specific player, then you are the weaker player.
@rocksparadox
@rocksparadox 7 ай бұрын
''Prep is a secondary skill'' Meh, what? secondary to WHAT? Mechanics and basic understanding of timings matter but what is that ''primary skill'' you mean compared to ''preparation'' (for a specific playstyle) ?
@MrTimishere
@MrTimishere 7 ай бұрын
I can't concentrate on what he's saying without Mario's fecal fantasy adventures playing in the background.
@danieln6700
@danieln6700 7 ай бұрын
needs to cover those silver vent things
@fruitytuesdayz5760
@fruitytuesdayz5760 7 ай бұрын
artosis really looking straight into my soul
@russellslaughter2957
@russellslaughter2957 7 ай бұрын
I definitely agree. It feels bad to lose because the other guy can click faster. Rts needs more strategy and less apm to be popularized again. People generally don't want to invest 6 months of practice just to be proficient.
@kiwmyak
@kiwmyak 7 ай бұрын
Its not even a descussion for a long time. Up to diamond and everything above is more about execution then about strategy. Pros do reads of builds by amount af gasses/units/timings. There is barely any surpise elements in sc2. P and T is more about tight execution. Z dont really have any timing that works consistently, so they forced into defensive macro games around scouting and defending and still u have preety much few responses to everything so u need to how to execute it properly. It wasnt a secret for a long time already.
@TranceXZero
@TranceXZero 7 ай бұрын
Arty, we need this video format for your thoughts on Mario Erotica.
@hydraman007
@hydraman007 7 ай бұрын
Focusing on words is hard when there so much going on behind you!
@codywotring8973
@codywotring8973 7 ай бұрын
Its like new arty videos are becoming formats for blizz forums at this point lol
@TheValiantFox
@TheValiantFox 7 ай бұрын
I love these meta videos. Super interesting!
@whzbwkkfu
@whzbwkkfu 7 ай бұрын
Squirtle confirmed the GOAT. You heard it from Artosis first!
@christopherarendt3531
@christopherarendt3531 7 ай бұрын
You can even go a step further and say that, because the universe is deterministic, there is no free will and therefore strategy is just a fantasy.
@grummler9088
@grummler9088 7 ай бұрын
It's not deterministic. Quantum mechanics are real, plenty of room for randomness. Whether free will hides somewhere behind the randomness of quantum effects is another question though, so you might be correct after all.
@CABALlc1
@CABALlc1 7 ай бұрын
@@grummler9088 Quantum mechanics doesn't mean the universe isn't deterministic.
@ahejleira5654
@ahejleira5654 7 ай бұрын
universe is deterministic, source = trust me bro.
@CABALlc1
@CABALlc1 7 ай бұрын
@bigmikeobama5314 lmfao wat
@christopherarendt3531
@christopherarendt3531 7 ай бұрын
@bigmikeobama5314 how so? Or is that from your own personal experience?
@lostmana
@lostmana 7 ай бұрын
And just like that, Arty silenced the Rogue haters. Preparation tournaments are perhaps among the most important types of tournaments to test one's true ability, Serral just falls flat.
@heyimSkyee
@heyimSkyee 7 ай бұрын
Love these kinda analysis videos
@alexandrel4569
@alexandrel4569 7 ай бұрын
Just explained why Maru wins GSL and Serral wins the week-end tournaments. Totally make sense.
@miavolosss
@miavolosss 7 ай бұрын
It's not really a competition at all between Maru and Rogue for the best preparation tournament player. Rogue: 4x GSL Maru: 8x GSL + OSL + SSL + 3x GSL 2nd place + Proleague MVP
@visitante-pc5zc
@visitante-pc5zc 7 ай бұрын
Well soulkey is very adaptative and diverse. Bro plays on the edge
@Thaniel85
@Thaniel85 7 ай бұрын
Well of course RT is gonna say that RT is the most important part to any RTS. 😁
@0Akeldama0
@0Akeldama0 7 ай бұрын
Tactics vs strategy?
@AntiDoctor-cx2jd
@AntiDoctor-cx2jd 7 ай бұрын
I agree that it's not that much strategy. The speed is the limiting factor, anybody could sit down after the game and see what they should have built. It's not hard to counter carriers though. Both BC and corruptors do it fine. It's hard to counter a well crafted protoss army that includes carriers and other things, but that is true of all races with a well crafted late game army, especially if they've gotten there first.
@AntiDoctor-cx2jd
@AntiDoctor-cx2jd 7 ай бұрын
defensive play is the best approach in all tournaments Serral is thet only one who does it. He was weak vs Z last year or he'd have 2 IEMs in a row. If Terrans played defensively they would really prove how unbeatable their race is, but instead they often throw many armies away being aggressive and setting themselves back. 8 hellions against queens? Why tho. It's the only terran unit that really fails against queens.
@asdfqwerty14587
@asdfqwerty14587 7 ай бұрын
@@AntiDoctor-cx2jd It would not work for terran vs. zerg. Zerg use that strategy because they are able to choose whether to build drones or units - if a terran player is not pressuring a zerg player, then the zerg player is not forced to build many army units, and then the zerg player can macro way way faster than the terran player can because all of their larva can be spent on drones so they'll build workers way faster than the terran player does. Zerg is a very reactive race because of the larva mechanic, as it allows them to switch between focusing on economy vs. building an army at a moment's notice - the other races can't just flip a switch and start building a maxed out army immediately after focusing on economy the way zerg can because their CC/nexus can't suddenly start producing army units and their barracks/gateway etc. can't build workers, so they have to be building both an army and economy simultaneously while zerg can choose to focus entirely on one or the other depending on the situation.. and if you don't force zerg to build an army by playing at least somewhat aggressively, then they're going to have a much bigger economy than you and eventually overrun you.
@AntiDoctor-cx2jd
@AntiDoctor-cx2jd 7 ай бұрын
@@asdfqwerty14587 what turtling? It works fine vs zerg. Pretty sure turtling was invented for the TvZ matchup.
@dantdu
@dantdu 7 ай бұрын
Good lord, RT, clean up the basement.
@keymaker2112
@keymaker2112 7 ай бұрын
Real time management skills + Strategic decision making. Sounds about right.
@R0binah00d
@R0binah00d 7 ай бұрын
After 25 years, you find out what Real Time truly means.
@ManAtPogo
@ManAtPogo 7 ай бұрын
there's something wrong with video. Like a blur every couple seconds. Just letting you know and say hi to Mario and Luigi from me!
@rhildor1
@rhildor1 7 ай бұрын
Interesting stuff Arti!
@dcp2047
@dcp2047 7 ай бұрын
But what about SOS. One could argue that he was the most sucessfull protoss ever because he won two blizzcons. No one else achieved that. And he won through strategy.
@sooooooooDark
@sooooooooDark 7 ай бұрын
this wasnt really a "real time" vs "strategy" debate it was a "adaptive play" vs "meta game" (as in meta-knowledge usage, not meta as in "whats hot") debate u can have strategy in a match without the meta stuff
@NostalGeorge
@NostalGeorge 7 ай бұрын
cool video. Thank you for sharing the opinion about this topic.
@Grant_BW
@Grant_BW 7 ай бұрын
he's talking about sc2 units. disgusting. this is supposed to be a brood war channel.
@dan0047
@dan0047 7 ай бұрын
Arty should do more analysis videos
@DasGuntLord01
@DasGuntLord01 7 ай бұрын
Autofocus was a mistake, and whoever invented will burn in hell for hurting my eyeballs, specifically.
@FlymanMS
@FlymanMS 7 ай бұрын
Matter of time before we see “My political declaration on Protoss” in this style.
@vincentgalipeau6389
@vincentgalipeau6389 7 ай бұрын
Artosis is the sexiest man alive. Seriously.
@Taunt61
@Taunt61 7 ай бұрын
hmm so that's why sOs rocked two Blizzcons, because it was a weekender and zerg was favoured got it. Apparently you cannot have strategy at a weekender.
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