Starfleet's Borg Ships, the Echelon and Sagan Class

[@DocWolph]

"maybe it is not a good idea to network all your ships together." "The Cylons and Colonials will attest to that."

[@davfree9732]

I never understood from the show why a networked fleet was considered to be a good thing to begin with. They say it's for co-ordination, but time and again TNG showcased that technology can run away with itself. If SH's era of Trek should be called anything it's the age of hubris in that they show StarFleet making every mistake TNG showcased warnings about.

[@adcraziness1501]

Makes for great storytelling but anyone should understand that ships this advanced (BSG -> TNG -> SG1 -> *.*) would be advanced enough to be able to have a fully integrated fleet. AND be able to rig for silent running. They would have extremely low power low bitrate ghost modes to do status updates and other routine tasks. Even in situations where they couldn't bring their full comms systems up. People know how to have difficult to detect and damn near impossible to locate comms.

[@ElenarMT]

BRUH! Starfleet added the Borg's distinctiveness to their own 🤣

[@ZS-bg7jo]

I mean... Commander Eddington did kind of call it...

[@roguerifter9724]

I think torpedo launchers would be standard for explorer type ships. They can be used to deploy probes obviously and exploration ships need all the defensive options they can get including torpedoes because they are the ships most likely to meet new hostiles.

[@casbot71]

In universe, using the same basic spaceframe for different ship concepts makes perfect sense. It also means that upgrades can be developed more quickly and spread across all the models based on the core ship design. So for example both the Sagan and the Echelon will be getting a big physical lever on the bridge that disconnects the *networking* manually with gears and pullies disconnecting cables and relays. To further utilise the spaceframe, the Echelon layout could prehaps be reworked for a planetary landing capable ship, and the Sagan four nacelle warp coasting layout used for a long range interceptor and patrol ship if it was upgunned to Echelon standards - then it could run down a fleeing ship as a persistence predator that just keeps going on and on until its prey is worn down (by its warp core overheating).

[@Thaumh]

I have said it before and I will say it again. I feel that every time Starfleet comes out with a new generation of vessel, once they get the bugs ironed out of the tech in a "Constitution Class shaped" ship, they should then produce a "Miranda Class shaped" and a "Constellation Class shaped" ship.

[@braddl9442]

Echelon class are basically Harbor defense ships. You dont need them doing long distance runs, so you can remove the extra warp engines and just have that power free for the weapons. Might make them a monitor class.

[@weirdkitty07]

The Sagan class torpedo tubes are located in those funny strut launchers under the lower nacelles. On the aft they are on the upper slung nacelles pointing backward near the impulse engines.

[@OllamhDrab]

Doesn't make sense a ship that size *wouldn't* have torpedoes, and probably at least one nice multipurpose probe/torpedo launcher/facility.

[@maybetoby]

Good, it Starfleet would be negligent in their duty to keep their starship crews safe if they excluded torpedo tubes. Even if it is primarily a science vessel.

[@inventor121]

Good to know they are still there, a lot of probes we see in star trek are just modified photon torpedoes. And it makes sense.

[@maube8007]

I'm so happy to see Drexler, Okuda and the others from the 90s working on Star Trek.

[@richardstone5552]

Very cool I can't help but feel that if the ship designers had watched Battlestar Galactica they would have known not to integrate their ships so thoroughly If only Tom Paris was a member of the Starfleet ship design Bureau

[@SuperGamefreak18]

Apparently Geordi warned them it was a horrible idea honestly I think every frontline engineer who had direct experience with the Borg screamed it was a bad idea but star fleet command does what it does

[@patrickmccurry1563]

In the real world, militaries often have to relearn the same lesson every generation or two. @@SuperGamefreak18

[@richardstone5552]

The sad truth is it's always the Frontline grants that pay the price for the short-sightedness and deaf ear off the top brass

[@SuperGamefreak18]

@@richardstone5552 yup so so true

[@Klaaism]

Something of a cliche in Star Trek plotlines, the inept and/or corrupt admirals causing problems constantly. Lower Decks poked fun at this actually in an episode with AI-controlled ships. It happens so often in the various series; you'd think Starfleet would tighten its admiralty recruitment.

[@gabelogan5877]

In my mind, Starfleet allowed its hubris blind it. They believe the Borg was no longer a threat and felt that the benefits cannibalizing the Borg tech outweighed any risks. after all, Voyager did such a thing for years before coming home.

[@shauntempley9757]

You are right. Voyager swayed Starfleet into taking serious risks. Of course, their performance during the evacuation mission should have lead to massive changes. I think that Clancy was the main reason those changes never happened.

[@june-cz1cw]

The thing is voyager had 7 on hand at all time she should be counted as their best Borg expert Also with voyager due to her being on board and them being constantly at risk Borg tech was something they needed to do outta necessity the other ships didn't need to go with Borg tech so they failed

[@Chuck-PK]

This is definitely my OCD but the ONLY thing I don't like about the Sagan-class is how the top and bottom nacelles aren't vertically flipped, kind of ruins the horizontal symmetry on the rear of the ship for me.

[@Hagunemnon]

Glad I'm not the only one, lol. I can legit hear the gears in my head grinding to a screeching halt every time I see 'em.

[@shotarohidari7417]

i remember back in DS9 where Michael Eddington once told Sisko that the Federation was more akin to the borg except that at least the borg were up front with the goal of making it 1 happy collective. Funny how years later Starfleet's ships had so much borg tech and integration like the collective that the Federation nearly became the Borg. Eddington definitely was underated for his assessment in that regard.

[@aquariandawn4750]

That's the thing about gray characters, even if they are a bad guy, they're not always wrong.

[@maybetoby]

I'm still a lil bummed the Excelsior II class USS Excelsior (NCC-42037) didn't receive a legacy registration. But I'm biased, it's one of my favorite starships.

[@wolfpack_104]

I got into Star Trek online not too long ago thanks in large part to these videos and learning about the different ship classes I've only ever seen as background filler in shows/films is a treat. Keep up the great work!

[@rhodrage]

With every ship I wonder how well it would have handled the events of Voyager. With all the mentions of the Intrepid, it comes to my mind again.

[@emperorofscelnar8443]

I like the idea of a ship with 4 warp engines and 2 warp cores, being able to be at warp much longer then any other ship having one core going through a cooldown period while the other core remains active and switch it around when the other core reaches its limit thus keeping the ship at warp much longer then any other vessel which would be useful going to another quadrant. I like Federation ships with more then 2 warp engines because if one engine is damaged the ship could still be able to enter warp especially if it had more then 1 warp core.

[@emperorofscelnar8443]

It would also be useful if the ship had more then 1 bridge as well incase the main bridge gets damaged or destroyed.

[@Kainis80]

@@emperorofscelnar8443 you mean like a "battle bridge"?

[@kingssman2]

I like the idea of this class, also the benefit of running at warp 7 indefinitely. I wonder how long it would take to reach the Delta quadrant if it ran non stop at warp 7 for a month or year, vs Voyager's periodic 12 hour cool downs. This concept would also help it bypassing threats as it can retain warp 9.5 for a lot longer than other vessels that can only do it in short bursts.

[@teresaravenshaw5477]

The warp calculator I just used puts the time to cover 70,000 light years at warp 7 (656.1c - TNG) at a little over 106.6 years. Sprints at 9.5 would help keep time when you inevitably need to stop for fuel, but you're still looking at making it a generational ship, unless it's got a Vulcan crew.

[@DrewLSsix]

Voyager wouldn't have regularly run at speeds requiring cooldowns, as for how long, at a constant warp 7 with no stops Voyager would have required 106.6 years to get home, at 7.5 it would have required 84.8 years. The original calculation was likely made assuming an average of around warp 8 because that would have required 68.3 years to get home. If Stargazer could achieve its peak warp speed of 9.5 and hold it indefinitely it would take just under 39 years to make the same trip. And just for fun, if Voyager could hold its top warp speed indefinitely it could have flown straight home in 13.66 years time.

[@uhtred7860]

Bet it couldn't do the Kessel run in less than 12 parsecs tho, Amirite??😏

[@teresaravenshaw5477]

@@uhtred7860 Depends, how many parsecs is the Kessel Run? I get your reference but that parsecs are a measure of distance and the writer didn't know that, annoys me.

[@garygood6804]

​@@teresaravenshaw5477voyager couldn't because it is too big.

[@barrybend7189]

Shame all the new canon ships are lockbox and not C store in STO.

[@valor1omega]

No surprise there, gotta have loot crate China style lottery money maker.

[@clintmatthews3500]

Modern gaming is just disgusting.

[@HisLordsh1p]

@@clintmatthews3500 it might be finally starting to course correct (a bit) but it took a lot of angry voices for the AAA publishers and studios to finally listen. Here's hoping that new star trek fleet command game isn't a micro transaction filled purgatory.

[@Crembaw]

Or added to the free progression.

[@sardonicspartan9343]

Expected really. It'd the only way a game as old as STO is going to make money.

[@MytronixOfficial]

What I really dislike abou those new ships is that the multiphasic shielding (or something else) seems to have massive detrimental impact on Interior lighting making even 20th century incandescent light bulbs seem very bright. Alternatively the Advanced Starship Design Bureau got infiltrated by Remans.

[@HylianFox3]

Few things are as jarring as going from a dimly lit 24th century ship to something ultra-bright, like say, the Enterprise-D bridge...

[@jameslynch2399]

The Sagan class was a hell of a lot better looking than the Neo-Con. It actually looked like a whole ship on its own rather than 4-5 different ships awkwardly smooshed together. They reused its sets for season 3, it would've been fine to set the whole thing on the Stargazer. The Echelon, not so much. It just looks unfinished, like it's missing something (that being the two underslung nacelles that balance out the design). Still better than the Titan-A/Ent-G, but not as good as the Sagan.

[@BullGator-kd6ge]

I completely agree, the Stargazer should’ve been in the place of the Titan-A. Even the name Stargazer has more meaning to Picard than Titan so I don’t know why went through the trouble of changing it.

[@Simalacrum]

I absolutely detest how this ship was done dirty in season 2 of Star Trek: Picard. The fact that they did the whole 'hero-ship' sweep of the thing in the first episode and then *subsequently never featured the ship again until the last episode* with that stupid goddamn 'raider' ship taking centre stage instead just felt like the writers were mocking long time fans of Star Trek.

[@Strykenine]

I loved the Sagan class. It was my favorite design of the new generation of Star Trek, and it wasn't even close.

[@alanmike6883]

The Sagan was the perfect example of slow and steady wins the race

[@JeremyBuxman]

Some Admiral: We should network all the ships together so they can improve response and-- Security Officer: *phaser set to slap* We have tried that 15 times. It has been a failure 19 times. No sir. Go build your toy modal spaceships. (Stargazer was a pretty ship. Too bad we didn't really do anything with it...)

[@lovenicholson]

The Sagan-class Command Cruiser is a Tier 6 cruiser in Star Trek Online. It was released on August 16, 2022. The USS Stargazer was the first ship in the Sagan class. The Sagan class was designed and built by Starfleet in the late 24th century. The Sagan class has a unique physical configuration that's different from most Starfleet ships. The primary and secondary hulls are streamlined together without a connecting neck. The class also has a four nacelle layout. The Sagan class has improved power, shielding, and weaponry. The USS Stargazer has eight torpedo launchers.

[@TrentonBennett]

I always thought it was a shame we didn't see the Stargazer in Season 3. I like how it paid homage to the original Stargazer. I definitely thought it was a dumb idea to interlink ALL Federation starships like they did in Season 3. I mean hello, why the bloody hell would you do something like that!? I hope they eliminated that policy after the crew of the Enterprise defeated the Borg once and for all. I wonder if Admiral Shelby lived or not...it never really showed if she did.

[@GregPrice-ep2dk]

The Sagan class does have torpedo tubes, per the technical callout posted on social media by Doug Drexler.

[@MaverickBlue42]

Torpedo launchers have also doubled as probe launchers in Canon for as long as can be, so it obviously must have some, they're just hidden somewhere(due to the oversight of not placing them on the 3d model....)

[@wesleykim6523]

One of the biggest crimes of Picard Season 2 was not using this ship more! I’m still mad!

[@sandordugalin8951]

This is the first I've ever heard of warp vessels having to "cool down" from "bursts of warp".

[@MercenaryPen]

well, we know that warp drives needed significant redesign for higher warp factors following the discoveries made in the tng episode "force of nature", maybe this is one of the trade-offs made in those redesigned systems?

[@Reoh0z]

> "Autonomously networked fleet." You would have thought they'd know that was a bad idea. When they did it anyway, you'd think they'd have learned it was a bad idea. If they continue towards this goal it will definitely end well.

[@dr.zippymcscoots8725]

Defiant is still my ship. Its like a mustang with two 50 caliber guns on the front. The Sagan class doesnt really need the two lower nacelles. Looks better without

[@Alastair_]

Why would Starfleet, something we know relies heavily on automation have such small ships requiring 800+ crew? What the heck do they all do?

[@Corbomite_Meatballs]

Run Level 3 diagnostics all the time. And make sure the carpet lays flat on the decks.

[@malloryemclaren]

If I was in one of these ships, I’d feel very secure in the knowledge that we’d be HAULING a** if need be, and had redundancies so we wouldn’t be stranded.

[@Buddy74656]

I loved the Stargazer I was hoping it would have stuck around for Picard season 3 as much as I liked the design of Titan and while I really loved Shaw I was sad to lose Rios.

[@jaimebabb9968]

Rios deserved better

[@chrisconner5777]

Since most Statfleet probes are launched from torpedo tubes, the Sagan class pretty much has to have them somewhere

[@blkhrtme1]

I love your content soo much . Keep it up , also do you know when you will continue the story series?

[@MrThejackal99]

Did you reset the switch to defaults? It may have some VLAN programming on those ports.

[@matt07a74]

Great video. Carl Sagan - "We are made of star-stuff."

[@LORDOFDORKNESS42]

Imagine what great couriers and transports the Sagan would make, once they're more standardized and made more efficient. Like, warp freakin seven is INSANE for indefinite cruising speed.

[@marvelboy74]

Thanks Ric, I didn't realize that the connection between the Echelon and Sagan.

[@chiefwiggi]

Well done Rick. Once again a great vid. Cannot wait to see what comes next. Keep it up lad.

[@grantalbrecht4577]

I doesn’t have a legacy registry number in the sense of adding a dash and a letter, but 82893 vs 2893 cannot be a coincidence.

[@CaptainSeato]

"..so perhaps it's not a good idea to network your ships together..." * Admiral William Adama has entered the chat *

[@ArtistryBranson]

Thanks for another great ship breakdown, Ric!

[@leemachado5286]

Love this and the excelsior 2 class! Great designs.

[@aqdrobert]

The Doctor: For centuries, I advised Starfleet to disguise a vessel as a London Police box. Make it bigger on the inside. Offer the Borg Collective jelly babies to distract them. Did they listen? NO!

[@j4ck3t]

The design of this ship really works out well, when you take away the two extra nacelles for the Echelon class it really looks like an iconic Star Trek design. The combination of smooth swooping curves combined with the blocky butt is very striking. It gives the ship a very utilitarian feel as I am sure most science departments would be located in the back of the ship, optimized space and access for tools and facilities in a square room.

[@bryanbond7804]

I think the Echelon Class would have looked way better if the nacelles were on the bottom instead of the top.

[@alextricoverload]

I refuse to believe that not one person at Starfleet went "hey guys, shouldn't we consider that putting borg tech in our ships could be a security risk?"

[@shadowhenge7118]

I think if I was a Starfleet Captain I would definately want a Sagan class for exploration.

[@entropy11]

Yes it's stupid, but go on and tell me that it isn't something the Starfleet we would actually do with the justification that "Well it couldn't possibly happen again, right?"

[@Marconius6]

Come to think of it, in pretty much every recent Star Trek series, Starfleet gets its ass kicked because of the networking thing... Picard did it (twice), Prodigy did it, even SNW did it with the singing plague spreading over comms... Lower Decks kinda had the autonomous ships as the big bad too in the last season.

[@bobertfw]

The primary issue is of course we potentially lost that sexy romulan hunk. Whom I assume we all lament was not in the third series damn his Aussie-Rommu accent and rugged good looks! Excelsior excelsior!

[@spartanseraph]

Regarding Picard's mention of refit: I saw that as more of a "starfleet tradition" type thing - as in, the name *is* the ship, and spiritual successors are "refits" in a not-really-but-kinda Ship of Theseus sort of way.

[@savirianwinter1656]

I was going to get this in STO, until i got the bigger and heavier Tucker class Miracle Worker Cruiser. I'm glad i did because that ship can take a beating from even the new STO borg ships.

[@deanspanos8210]

Starfleet just needed to buy Mcafee Ultimate.

[@NLaertes]

If Legacy doesnt get greenlighted, would be nice to have a Stargazer series with Cristobal Rios with his crew...Moshe, Singh, Urtern and Kemi.

[@jaimebabb9968]

They need to bring him back from the past though

[@NLaertes]

@@jaimebabb9968 No need, just make it a prequel...explore the years leading upto Picard Season 2

[@raymondcarter1137]

It looks like a tug. When I played star fleet battles a federation tug was slow and cumbersome but if you made the mistake of getting too close you could get your ship completely wiped.

[@zenmaster24]

so warp 9.5 sustainable for 24 hours by a single pairs of nacelles? therefore switch to secondary pair, warp coast and continue at warp 9.5 for another 24 hours while first pair cool down and repeat ad infinitum?

[@andrewcoulthard-clark]

This was great! I don't know if you take requests; not the Oberth itself, the 'Grissom Class light science vessel' variant from Star Trek Online as it's an amazing design and I can't find much information about its layout...

[@theoneyoudontsee8315]

I remember blueprints of the intrepid and sovereign class also having a backup warp core. not identical twin warp cores but a limited stripped down version like on voyager and inserection never actually on screen as existing. the blueprints showed the intrepid to have a second warp core about half the power output and the sovereign having a second core with about 70% the power output without the overdrive components. don't know if this was a abandoned cannon feature or or if it was ever even a prototype feature but it just seems like an inevitable smart idea after getting to the point of being able to keep speeds of warp factor 9.9 more than a hour with the forementioned overdrive technology first used in the galaxy and nebula classes. I just would like to see a smart idea better than being stranded without something if a single warp core has been ejected or totally burned out. maby they could simply use the fusion reactors to achieve warp power if they needed but what good would warp factor 1 or 2 be after breaking down after 24 hours at warp 9+?.

[@timjerrom7173]

Cool, I wan one badly but is it out in the Store yet or only available through lockboxes?

[@Dirt1061]

The 12 Colonies know a thing or two about networking all your ships together.

[@aquariandawn4750]

Just reminded me of a saying I could be applied to today's Star Trek writing... This is all happened before and it will happen again

[@jacara1981]

Basically it's not a sprinter, its a marathon runner.

[@mythos000000025]

Trek should do something huge, like the scimitar. 6 to 8 warp nacelles around a central body, each armored with phaser arrays and torpedo launchers, along with the same on the main body. Possibly design it with the ability to separate and act in conjunction with the main body for battles or emergency evacuation. 4 to 5 warp cores depending I would imagine. Obviously a speed/war machine but not relegated to that role. Also interphasic(?) Cloaking both for stealth and getting out of sticky situations....buy yeah, total dominance build

[@BurningFlamesofDivineDragon]

Wonderful video keep up the great work.

[@CaptainM792]

It has 4 nacelles, similar to the rank of captain, which is also associated with the number 4.

[@Monni95]

Everytime I hear name "Sagan", it reminds me of Polish city of Zagan, where my family originates. In some languages there is no letter Z, so it's spelled Sagan.

[@brigidsingleton1596]

Whenever I hear / see the name "Sagan" I think immediately of Carl Edward Sagan, (1934 - 1996 R.I.P) still, sadly missed.

[@Dermacrosis]

Given how often the Enterprise refit changed the look of things on the ship, in the past a refit is possible. Especially you have another video talking about the frame of the Nebula class being used to create the Reliant class on,

[@JustAnNPC69]

I love using this ship in the game

[@jm823]

So the Sagan class has Bio-gen technology like Voyager, but didn't this tech on Voyager get a "infection" once and wouldn't this type of technology make it vulnerable as well regardless on how advance it is? LLNP 🖖

[@Jayjay-qe6um]

It was presumably named for astronomer Carl Sagan.

[@Kreachie]

7:00 it does, they’re in the connection point between the saucer and nacelle pylons.

[@robertfrost8452]

Is there possibly a 3rd version with the nacelles just mounted on the bottom?

[@teehasheestower]

I like the 4 nacel design. It can go much futher, but is not that much slower. But you suppose the tradeoff is that such ships are about twice as resource intensive to build.

[@K-C-D-A]

3:30 where does that image of the hybrid bio neural circuitry come from?

[@chrischreative2245]

This is a nice looking ship.

[@briankleinschmidt3664]

Four nacelles and two warp cores sounds like a lot. You'll keep poor Scotty up for days at a time.

[@FusionArmorX]

I like the Sagan-class. I'd like it more if the top nacelles were taken off, and replaced with a rollbar that had a torpedo launcher mounted to it.

[@GiancarloPaniccia]

An absolutely amazing ship, but I can't help but think that the lack of torpedo/probe launchers is an oversight.

[@RonJohn63]

7:14 But of course you make double-duty probe-torpedo launchers, just in case. (That doesn't mandate carrying torpedoes, though.)

[@AntaresScaleworks]

I can't see a Federation starship of that size/mission profile not having torpedo launchers - especially the more militant/conflict oriented Starfleet of Picard's era. There are a few places it could be, they just didn't show it.

[@bull614]

Idk what it is, but I still like the Excelsior refit looks more. That being said, I do really like the look of the new one and definitely like the new capabilities lol

[@atoll2453]

Is this sorta the new Nebula class? except the swap module is at the bottom PS - what makes it vulnerable to Bord takeover anyways? They should still have fresh source code in computer

[@NTJ1984]

I'm admittedly only a few minutes in, but you completely missed the Cheyenne class, which came a few years after the Constellation class of ships. Edit 1: I retract my statement as I hadn't gotten far enough into the video. I apologize. Edit 2: There are several ships that have more than one warp core. If you look at the L-Cars cross sections of a number of shis, you can see the primary warp core in the main engineering section, and then a smaller secondary core.

[@al28854]

for a mainly science vessel, it sure has a 'under stated' size/shape deflector dish under the main saucer section.

[@stevieturner9338]

Thank you Rick

[@GreyLynx_329]

Design after the Constellation or the Cheyenne Class?

[@frankharr9466]

That was good. Thank you.

[@chornk64]

I apologize for what may be a silly question but, is it my imagination or are the connections with the upper pylons designed to move forward?

[@kevindondrea144]

I don't see "Bland" in the other ship reveal. I think it looks cool

[@ryandbrotherton9335]

Very nice design

[@bearnaff9387]

I am a little underwhelmed by this ship, tbh. Firstly, 24 hours at 9.5 is less distance in TNG units than 12 at 9.95. Now, if faster ships require more than 24 hours to travel and refurbish, the Sagan will eventually outdistance everything. That indefinite Warp 7 cruise is likely to be the big winner. A ship that can just go to warp and stay there until it wants to harvest fuel can cover some space with a quickness. But, I feel like Starfleet goofed on this rebuild of the Constellation class, a ship they never properly utilized to begin with. Constellations were equipped with a surplus of shuttle bays, that should have been used as space-access modular mission bays for exploration and emergency response vessels. The Sagan only has three bays, all aft-facing instead of spread around the saucer where crew access and utility would be highest.

[@landongriffith9092]

Great work man I love it

[@t-bomb24fit61]

Windows in the base of the nacell mounts? Shouldn’t they be solid?

[@clintmatthews3500]

How long till we have dual warp cores with hyper threading?

[@manricobianchini5276]

Why so many windows? Too many windows means a weaker overall structure.

[@t-bomb24fit61]

What to the Cheyennes place as a “pursuit” vessel? If this is a science vessel

[@rwboa22]

Echelon-class starships, in my opinion, are just 25th Century versions of the 22nd Century United Earth NX starships from ST:ENT.

[@joelker41]

I really don't like the new Aesthetic of many of these ships. The Titan A/Enterprise G was just a bad looking ship IMO. The Sagan is just to busy. Not sleek and really awkward lines. I don't mind the inquiry and Odyssey classes. Maybe I'm still stuck in the 90s but some of the these ships are straight goofy.