Start Your Engines! | EDHRECast 121

Start your engines! Which cards propel a deck forward, and which cards help them cross the finish line? Some cards might be an engine in one deck, but the win condition in another!
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[@TheOneAndOnlyCrawl]

When you were talking about more win cons vs more engines, a thought came to my mind on how to condense what you said : Engines stack, Win Cons usually don't. You can't win twice per game. As the name states, a win con has a high chance of winning you the game. 2 win cons increase the consistency and can attack from a different angle, if Win Con 1 fails because you can't attack with your creatures for some reason, you have your backup that lets you sacrifice and drain your opponents, or mill them out, or whatever. But adding more win cons yields diminishing returns. And since most win cons consist of 2-5 cards that don't do all that much by themselves, drawing pieces of unrelated win cons doesn't really advance your game plan. Engines generate card advantage and mana, improve your board state and enable you to find and play your win cons. And engines are usually symbiotic. Engine A says do X, you can do Y, Engine B says whenever Y you gain Z, Engine C says, whenever you sacrifice Z you get to do K, and so on. And at some point your engines will go "perpetuum mobile", and pretty much end up creating a win con by themselves.

[@keanubaker7421]

instaBlaster

[@sosukelele]

Engines eventually assembling into infinite (or close enough) value is sort of how I started building my "combo" deck. Oh, Miiram's so much value, so fun. Ganax? Hell yeah my dragons bring the cash, synergises great Miiram & Lathliss... and suddenly I'm standing with 9+ constant etb effects and a panharmonicon in what was just a tribal deck that wanted a little more value

[@joshuanolte9126]

Why does edhrec not have an app?

[@geoffwilliams6072]

Good point

[@colanialcranial283]

🤔

[@wldnrkls]

probably not monetarily sustainable

[@couver2997]

I love that you guys ground the examples in your own experience with your decks/pod. It really makes them easy to understand.

[@golgariguy]

Another incredible engine in Aristocrat decks is Pitiless Plunderer. That card is a beast, it can do so much work. Really fun with some tokens and Evolutionary Leap and some tokens on the battlefield. Add Revel in Riches for some fun times!

[@kristbg]

You know the world's upside down when Joey's the one telling dad jokes at the start of the episode.

[@chrisgoodhind1821]

I usually listen to the show during my car rides, but the video content is awesome! Great stuff guys.

[@Lyricaon]

I think part of the reason Kaya's Wrath sees so much play is that it is affordable. It is around a doller, Wrath of God on the other side is allready like 6-8 dollers or so (I am from europe, so I don't know the exact doller price). And then cards like damnation are just behand affordable for many players (or at least not worth the much higher price for a rather small advantage).

[@brucedavies9060]

I use a 3-card engine that when you play one of several 4th cards, can win or cause huge board state effects. Spike Breeder, Ashnod's Altar, Ivy-Lane Denizen. With this 3-card engine, I can take effect of etb and death triggers as well as +1/+1 counters. With the right cards, I can make infinite tokens or a monstrously big creature. Some of the 4th cards that can be played are; Gravepact/Dictate of Erebos, Blood Artist/Zulaport Cutthroat, Fecundity, Moldervine Reclimation, Doubling Season/Parallel Lives. I use this combination in my Slimefoot deck and it is much hated among my friends.

[@TheStephenation]

I've never used this engine, but I like it. You could easily run it in a deck with the good spikes, so if they see Spike Breeder or something and they've already seen Spike Weaver, they just think, "Oh, he's doing some dumb theme with the spikes." And that's totally something I would do anyway. Ashnod's Altar is a natural fit for that kind of deck, so everything seems pretty tame. And then they see Ivy Lane Denizen and are all, "Oh no."

[@calebstewart235]

I have a friend who built a Voltron brago deck and it is really cool

[@Suavek69]

Does it have any cool interactions? I can't think of anything

[@peewee130946]

MaruderSlayer I think the thought process is. Well brago wants to attack so why not make it lethal. Idk that’s all I can think of

[@jakeapplegate6642]

@@Suavek69 giving brago double strike gives double blink triggers because he blinks on combat damage.

[@pielord33321]

Here's a challenge the stats: only 9.75% of Lord Windgrace decks are playing Orcish Lumberjack. That card is nuts in that deck, it lets you cast Windgrace on turn 2.

[@jacquesdespadas]

I have to agree with Joey about Elemental Bond. I've decked myself enough times that I have increased my enchantment destruction cards in the decks I play it in. Absolutely bonkers.

[@TheBuildKing]

My favorite engine/wincon. In my Feldon of the third path deck, Altar of Dementia. Sacking the reanimated creatures to either fill my own graveyard or if I'm bringing alot of big creatures back, sacking them to mill my opponents.

[@GeorgeAlone2277]

My decks tend to be all engines and no win conditions. People don't like playing commander with me. I do tend to accidentally kill myself by drawing too many cards

[@cindyl3297]

LOL

[@henryjones8636]

I'm the exact same way lol

[@nikos731]

You just described my Yawgmoth edh.

[@lwhitty721]

My Brago killed many a player via combat damage - albeit slower than any of us might have liked 😅

[@noahmurtha4036]

Very similar to room is my Ephara deck. She’s the engine for the deck since she effectively makes my creatures say draw a card on top of their own abilities. Closing out the game with either approach of the second sun OR using lore weaver and infinite mana to force draw my opponents

[@EloquentTroll]

Brago Voltron sounds interesting, the artifact searching Mages being blinked means more equipment to power Brago. I am tempted to build this. I have a Ruhan of the Fomori Voltron deck, and red doesn't add very much other than Godo Bandit Warlord, Temur Battle Rage, and Sunforger with a few targets for it.

[@reubentirkey5436]

Penance is one of my favourite cards in my Golos deck. Can't quite emphasize how cool has it been to stack the top of my library with the largest CMC spells

[@borislibaque1558]

I think the cards that fit in that last category come in 2 varieties. They either let you do more of what you already do and can slot into most decks or they're cards that hit on a cornerstone part of mtg - in both cases that your deck cares about. In the first category there's cards like Isochron sceptor or soul foundry which can copy tutors, burn spells, bounce spells, draw spells, anything really, and in some decks will just win with the extra commander synergy. In the other category there's cards like Smothering Tithes which will win with Revel in Riches or Walking Ballista which will win with Heliod Sun-Crowned. Good cards on their own, better in those decks. I do feel however that the importance of these when discussing engines is a little over inflated and here's why. A removal spell is useful, its better in a deck that cares about things dying. That's kindof an obvious synergy. Does a deck that cares about things dying run removal spells, of course. Is that an engine? Here's the thing, if you didn't have those cards, including them is moving you from closer to your win con so there, yes it is an engine, but thats not the situation, the situation is 'here's my deck, here's what it does, it has these spells my commander cares about and it goes about this fast, I'd like an engine that helps it go faster than it currently goes'. What I'm saying is cards that are already staples in the deck and propelling you forwards aren't engines per say, that's just the yard stick speed of your deck, they are the deck and some decks just are faster than others. An engine I think by definition, builds on that standard, it improves the deck's capacity beyond itself, it adds to it in some way. For example: Besalt Monolith in Kinnan I wouldn't say is a true engine, its just an obvious synergy like mana dorks that are just staple cards in Kinnan, its part of the ordinary speed of the deck. Kinnan wants mana, he's inherently a fast deck, its part of his story to inevitably figure out infinate mana, its not an extra piece its just part of his identity. Mana Doublers in other decks, yes self-contained engines for sure, in Kinnan, you could argue they should just be staple stacking redudant effects he likes that you're already building around presuming to have. Seedborn Muse and Omnath Yes, engine. Kinnan doesn't need these things, if you add them it's to add to what he does in an interesting way. Cryptoligh Rite, again you could argue its a staple part of the 99 and part of how fast he typically goes. Not running it begs the question, aren't you going below the speed of a typical Kinnan deck. Its also just a card and not an engine and those are different things. Phyrexian Altar, No, its just a good card but not an engine; you would need to pair the altar with another piece to call it an engine like a way to get tokens, or a death trigger. In my Captain Sissay deck I have an engine I love with the Nissa Vital Force emblem, which is pretty easy to get and Karametra God of Harvest. Its an engine is Captain Sissay but in Karametra's deck Nissa Vital Force is just a staple card and part of its default speed. The Engine in Karametra's deck is the Nissa Vital Force's emblem and Recycle. Staple cards in Captain Sissay would be Nissa Genesis Mage who untaps Captain Sissay or Thran's Temporal Gateway which cheats in legends but I don't consider them an engines, because I would never not run them, they're part of her natural projection, she tells you she wants those things. A card like Vorinclex however is definitely there to enable her play and might not be there otherwise, definitely a self-contained engine to consider My favourite Engine of all Paradise Mantle on Famished Paladin with a soul sister strat and a bounce or flicker strategy like whitemane lion or Brago

[@kierans8620]

Deekah, Fractal Theorist. Great Talrand-like ability that can generate blockers and potential unblockable threats... but also just makes infinite tokens if you create a copy spell loop. It's pretty busted, and I love it.

[@Asmodeus555]

I've done it! I've killed someone with Brago Commander damage. At the time I was playing Sovereigns of Lost Alara (there are some quite good Auras to blink) and I got to cheat an Eldrazi Conscription onto Brago who already had Battle Mastery... so that was lethal. I've also just done it before, attacking one player and getting Sword of Feast and Famine + Battle Mastery on Brago pretty early. Only takes 3 turns, that's 8 commander damage a turn. Doesn't happen often though.

[@brucedavies9060]

Don't forget Omnath, locus of Mana with Seedborne Muse

[@OGTahoe3]

I love outpost siege with the rakdos chainer and giving haste to the creatures that it exiled

[@koelkast9]

I find it hard to balance my wincons. I for one like powerful decks, but people dislike playing against decks they can't win against. Which leads to me nerfing it too much, which leads to upgrades.... see the cycle?

[@Rafesco]

Use not so good commanders in not so strong color combinations, avoid stax, infinite combos and quick ramp mana rocks and you're good to go

[@aswan523gaming7]

the opening music is so good

[@marc06969]

Niv-Mizzet, Parun is also a great engine/wincon

[@mattatlas8895]

He is my main

[@Titanreaver616]

I like the explanation if a wincon being a boad state rather than an individual card. I think this is best shown in Stax and Prison decks since attaining a hard lock on the game requires several pieces together, rather than one big play. Also for a card than can be both value and a wincon, Freyalise. She is great value as a repeatable naturalize in the command zone (also the part of her which is most overloooked) and making mana dorks every turn but her ult can be game changing and in consort with something like doubling season just game ending. But when she is not the commander she may still be good value but is less likely to be the wincon.

[@bcoble121691]

Penance also seems good against the plethora of wheels and discard decks in the format. Your opponent casts windfall and you can put important cards back on top.

[@slimyfister]

Disgusting! V nice use, can be a meta call in that sense

[@dreddbolt]

Valduk (Keeper of the Flame) does even better with Fireflux Squad, especially if you can Strionic Resonator the effect (if you're looking for powerful creatures instead of more tokens)... ... Getting a Godo (Bandit Warlord) or a Purphoros (God of the Forge) (or both) off of a Fireflux Squad trigger is pretty sweet. If you're looking for a great one-time effect, Indomitable Creativity can just target your tokens, cheating in creatures from your Valduk support package, and some artifacts as well. Since you probably have lots of artifacts, you can still tap attached permanents, so get a Ghirapur Æther Grid for your Valduk brew. Now, it probably goes without saying a Valduk brew needs a Brass Squire and a Magnetic Theft to go with a Colossus Hammer, because attaching things for less cost is much more favorable. Also, Valduk is a super fun voltron commander.

[@xelic1996]

I think animar is a perfect example of a commander that is both a win condition and engine all in one.

[@stevenluoma1268]

Tasigur is an engine/win con in the command zone. Card advantage + you get your whole deck (other than lands) into your hand with infinite green/blue mana, which lets you cast a way to win.

[@andrewpeli9019]

I think it would have been noteworthy to talk about commanders that have tap abilities with seedborn muse. Seedborn is by far the more powerful card in most Rhys the Redeemed decks and paves the way for effects like gia's cradle into a big x spell, or a craterhoof. I'd argue that it's more pivotal to decks outside of simic just because simic has so many other powerful ways to generate mana (looking at you Kennan)

[@ffxchris]

they have not talked about a challenge the stats i found. only 4403 decks are running underworld dreams total and out of them only 35% are running peer into the abyss. its a knock one player out of the game combo and can do more if you can play peer more then once.

[@2dendre]

Here is a challenge the stats: Cabal paldin (Dominaria) is only in 69 of 1401 Syr Gwyn decks. Its a common but it lines up quite well with both equipment and knight theme.

[@slimyfister]

Altar of dementia is lethal with karmic / reveillark / fiend hunter / dead leonin loops, and fills your yard for the loops themselves.

[@edgarventura7497]

If you stop at 5:07 you will notice that Joey is pissed off, and Dana is thinking about that day he never forgot, while Matt is going off in his turn.

[@Duchess_Van_Hoof]

Holy shit, Aggrevated Assault and the Scorching Ventmaw.

[@wesomek]

It's really terrible that Penance doesn't stop torment of hellfire or Gray merchant because Black uses lose of life instead of damage. However its super good in counterbalance Zur list setups.

[@Ranis555]

Another awesome place for Penance: Mayel the Anima. Activate Penance to prevent Mayel's next damage, activate her ability, and guarantee a critter from your hand hits the table and that you don't whiff with her.

[@michelleslay2701]

I use kayas wrath because I just have one lol I don't see the point in buying something else when I already have it

[@dystopianaverice1981]

Lol lost my thumbnail last month hitting my thumb with a hammer felt great

[@robaphone251]

Yes, those artifact altars I use to protect my creatures from being stolen... definitely not to turn my threaten effects into kill and ramp spells...

[@zerozolo8981]

Okay I just want to make sure I'm getting this right. My engine for my spell slinger deck would be Thousand-year Storm. Cast a lot of cheep cantrips and then Bonus Round with Mana Geyser into Fireball. I think I'm getting that right or would that be my win con?

[@changhyon92]

Fireball would be your win-con in your example

[@blindcommander]

Right. The win con is the endgame. It's the attempted finisher whereas Your Thpusand-year Storm. is the engine moving you forward and the draws are the gas that keeps the engine runnin'. Hope that makes sense.

[@zerozolo8981]

@@blindcommander Thank you it really does.

[@borosman720]

Vroom Vroom!

[@NarutoGeek411]

Make sure your engine is red to make it extra vroom. Everyone knows red makes things faster.

[@the_names_rob]

Im doing the salt survey rn and im finding some hidden gems (to me) like skill borrower

[@XeroGold]

I went to do the salt survey for that reason. I must be a rather chill player as the salt score of several things surprised.

[@TheJimmythebass]

The only things I've personally rated higher than a 1 are extra turn spells

[@henrycarter5340]

I thought this was gonna be about a vehicles commander deck haha.

[@benwix9099]

Skull clamp and Nadir kraken is a spicy engine

[@Duchess_Van_Hoof]

Hm... I should take another look at my old Invasion era Phyrexian Altar.

[@behemoth1158]

i have a challenge the stats. yawgmoth thran physycian is only in 37% of hapatra decks and i think it should see way way more

[@nerdpopeking]

If the commander is an engine I feel it's good to add extra wincons to wrap it up so Muldrotha stops delaying the game

[@TheOneAndOnlyCrawl]

Regarding your challenge the stats on Kaya's Wrath: for some players, casting spells with restrictive cmc is easier to do that to go for more expensive replacements: Kaya's Wrath 0.5$, Fumigate is 1.6$, Merciless Eviction 3.5$ Wrath of god is 7$, Austere command 7$. Just because it is better/easier to cast doesn't mean it's within everyone's budget.

[@beat2deth]

i run Yennett, and Penance helps so much it's ridiculous.

[@blindcommander]

Where can I upload my own decks?

[@EDHRECast]

EDHREC draws data from tons of deckbuilding sites, including Archidekt, DeckStats, MTGGoldfish, and more. We 3 personally most enjoy Archidekt (and Joey also uses it for our Upping the Average series). If you add your deck to any of those sites, we'll get that data :)

[@blindcommander]

@@EDHRECast Thank you very much! =D I'll definitely try that out.

[@20x20]

I just realized that Joey sounds like the teenager from The Simpsons

[@blindcommander]

How would you tank Syr Konrad?

[@jakeapplegate6642]

Lee Loving he is wincon. He has the mill ability also that could be considered an engine like ability but really it is just more wincon because it is primarily a last resort way to trigger his first ability.

[@kmrhod]

I have totally killed someone with commander damage on Brago

[@pauldyson8098]

A possible follow-up episode could look at specific commanders--engine commanders/finisher commanders/commanders that serve both roles--and how they affect deck building. You touched on it a bit but I'd love to see this explored more. Dana's Reki deck (which is, incidentally, a work of art) compensates for Reki's lack of "payoff" by utilizing big mana dumps like Genesis Wave, Kamahl, and Kamahl's Druidic Vow. Conversely, something like Angry Omnath (whom--I think?--Matt plays) is a huge payoff/finisher card. Appropriately, most Omnath decks are built to get as many lands as possible out of your deck into play (i.e., the deck is the engine). Cards like Perilous Forays are absolute gas in Omnath because they effectively turn Omnath into his own engine. That might also be something worth looking at: cards in the 99 that make a commander into an engine or a finisher. Tuvasa is a commander, in my opinion, who is both engine and finisher, drawing cards and getting bigger with each enchantment you stick. Accordingly, Tuvasa decks tend to be very well-rounded and also enable diverse strategies: Voltron, control (with Tuvasa as a finisher), and combo (with Tuvasa as a backup wincon). Korvold is another engine/finisher commander, as is Edgar Markov, though I can count on one hand the number of times I've actually seen Markov cast in a game.

[@dus65]

Can someone check a stat challenge for me, Kozilek the Great Distortion in decks using Jegantha as a companion, is that legal?

[@titanlord2000]

No, Companions are still bound by color identity, so you cant play them in any mono color or colorless decks

[@dus65]

Michael Earley I wasn’t talking about Jegantha as a companion to Kozilek, I was referring to Kozilek in the 99 of a deck that has Jegantha as a companion. Does Kozileks two colorless pips count as a double mana symbol?

[@TheStephenation]

@@dus65 They do indeed count as mana symbols. Jegantha can't be Companion in a deck with Kozilek, the Great Distortion. This also applies to spells with XX in their mana costs. Jegantha's Companion requirement cares specifically about symbols, not colors.

[@dus65]

TheStephenation so...vastly overplayed then LOL!

[@BigDiff7]

Kaya's Wrath is probably seeing significantly more play because of how new and accessible it is, especially to newer players.

[@Wizi3lizz]

People play Kaya's Wrath because they play all 4 of those other board clears and much more. If you're running Kaya's Wrath you're running 19 other board wipes... Gotta play them all. In my opinion Kaya's Wrath seems low to me. Also before the reprints 3 of those cards each were pretty expensive... Kaya's Wrath is cheap.

[@stevenluoma1268]

Lavinia, Azorius Renegade is definitely a weird one. She's no engine, all win condition, but also just slows the game down a lot. I'm not sure if that slowing down could be called an "engine" or a "win condition" if her goal is to play an omen pool and lock the table out.

[@juanzuniga3792]

Locking everyone out with a stack deck is a wincon

[@StudioNBS]

What a great video to show my kids in 10 years to get them to ask “what does he mean we should be wearing masks?” allowing me to give a long winded explanation of COVID - calling it now.

[@skyhawk554]

Mind's eye isn't bad, but unless your opponents are drawing 2+ cards on their turns it won't make any cats for you.

[@titanlord2000]

Kinnan should be a 4 drop, change my mind

[@fernandotanigushi8310]

Nope, you're correct, sir

[@skyhawk554]

At least.

[@lvx720]

I love when red cards are felonies.

[@knife9185]

sorry this is just my OCD i mean no offence by it . Titania (/tɪˈtɑːniə/)

[@garlicxlr]

When are you putting silverbordered cards on your site?

[@EloquentTroll]

Broke: Elemental Bond Woke: Garruk's Uprising There are situations where Elemental Bond is better, but 80% of the time Garruk's Uprising is better. You have a good shot at it replacing itself immediately instead of waiting and you get team wide trample. Yes I realize that 4up is more restrictive than 3up, but the tightness of the restriction change isn't as high as it might seem, if it were 2up vs 3up you would have a case. And yes sometimes Elemental Bond is better hence the 20% wiggle room, but ya'll brought up Titania, why are you bringing up the RC Cola of etb draw enchantments?

[@Nolsie]

kaya's wrath just sees play since its cheap and new..

[@Cleric268]

Exactly, it's

[@Nolsie]

@@Cleric268 yeah.. I don't think edhrec was terribly in touch with their audience there or how many people use their budget tab.. if you're in orzhov it's the cheapest 4 mana wrath (or people may have opened one at prerelease effectively making it free).. end of discussion, there is no power level discussion, it's just budget, that's why it is in my decks, I know it's not the best, it's just at least half the price of other similar cards. I don't think a good challenge the stats is asking why people are running suboptimal cards that cost under a dollar.

[@ThunderhorsE1213]

If you are in an orzhov deck bbww isn't even hard to pull off by the time you need a board wipe.

[@tommynosocks6267]

Old video so I’m sure this won’t get much coverage but I simply can’t stand for this outrage any longer. Yawgmoth, Thran Physician, is not just the engine, but also the gas, and the car as well. He has everything stapled right on to him. A sac outlet, a draw engine, a kill spell, and if it’s your bag a infect win with proliferation. And the measly overlooked engine card that gives him the win would be nest of scarabs. Works well enough in any -1/-1 counter deck but in Yawgmoth it’s a value machine. Clear the board with-1/-1’s and then have an army of scarabs that can either swing or be eaten to continue the value train of drawing cards and pinging down with a zulaport or a blood artist. As long as their is a payoff for the sacs and enemies still have creatures on the board it’s an infinite combo of being able to sac scarabs, place -1/-1’s and drain life. And if you DONT have a payoff well then yawgmoth is about to draw you one off of this exact same interaction. I think he is a massively underrated commander and creates so much value and at instant speed nonetheless. Just a great card all around. And I would like to disagree with Joey’s challenge the stats pick. Sure wwbb is color intensive in regards to what else you can get done in a single turn and I don’t disagree that there are better wraths but that doesn’t make kaya’s wrath bad per-say. If your Orzhov deck can’t create 4 colored mana by the time you want to wrath then your deck has much bigger issues than the fact that it has a perhaps suboptimal board wipe in it.

[@urazoe8240]

i have so many issues withe this episode. i dont even know where to start, but i guess if you ceep telle people wrong info, that makes it easyer for me to win games.

[@Jrizzle7426]

I have so many issues with the way you spell.......I don't even know where to start.

[@hugohaddad783]

Dude, I always get embarassed by Matt's attempts to be funny and feel obligated to skip the start of the videos. Seriously, you are not funny.