STEAL this Mechanic: Vampire the Masquerade for D&D

[@StephaniePlaysGames]

Do you use something similar to V:tM's Relationship Maps? What other game systems have mechanics that you like to "borrow" from?

[@Saniello]

I really like the momentum/threat system in Dune: Adventures in the Imperium. Players gain points of momentum if they roll more successes than they need to, and can use that momentum at a later point to buy more dice. If they want to buy more dice but don't have any momentum, they can instead generate threat points for the gamemaster, which works the same way but for npcs opposing the party. So a player can acchieve something now, and pay for it by giving an advantage to the opponents. That mechanic would probably work in most games that have some currency that lets you reroll or buy dice like FATE or Shattered Moon.

[@janehuskmann1914]

Borrow, or rob?

[@StephaniePlaysGames]

@@Saniello Oooh I haven’t read through that one yet, I’m excited to check it out and give it a whirl!

[@StephaniePlaysGames]

@@janehuskmann1914 Or a secret fancy third option - “reappropriate”? 😂

[@TheShepherdFilms]

I enjoy using Fiasco's sharing relationships to the person to the left and right of you, as well as sharing needs, pretty similar to this I'll give this a try.

[@blast_processing6577]

The *best* game mechanic worth "stealing" is from a kid's tabletop RPG, _Magical_ _Kitties_ _Save_ _the_ _Day:_ During the character creation stage players read through a Choose-Your-Own-Adventure-style story, where their choices determine both their character's initial stats and backstory.

[@StephaniePlaysGames]

I’ll have to read through it! I’ve actually really wanted to play that one- I played Heckin’ Good Doggos with a parent who was learning it to play it for their kids and had a BLAST so I’m sure Magical Kitties isn’t any different!

[@eoincampbell1584]

Legend of the Five Rings 5th edition does something similar where character creation can be done via 20 questions about the character's life.

[@alcalino5548]

VTM acknowledged, all is good in the world

[@thecrossroadstavern1447]

Malkavian, checking in 👍

[@davidwatches]

I found your channel during Kraken Week and I'm glad I did. I even made reference to your adventure hooks video in my own. Love the content and gaming tips!

[@StephaniePlaysGames]

Ahhhh thank you so much! 😊 Your video is definitely on my list! Slowly but surely I’m watching every single one!

[@PatricRogers]

Ditto!

[@satori2890]

Me too and you are Sooo much fun and must be a Divine DM

[@JarlHavi]

Within the first minute every Rogue player left 🤣 “living NPCs”

[@philiphockenbury6563]

I am going to be entirely honest. I tried to make a relationship map for a vampire game and it was exhausting. I felt like I needed to write a short novella just to finally be a Vampire Cowboy who does bounty hunting. Like it was more work than I have ever put into any other character. I didn’t get to play him for very long but I spent the better part of a month making him so I can’t get rid of him.

[@dizzyrosecal]

That’s… unusual. It took our group about 2 hours for our entire session zero for V:tM. That includes full character creation, relationship maps, discussion of attendance expectations, etc. Everything.

[@StephaniePlaysGames]

I think it’s okay for certain games or mechanics to not vibe with certain people! I always say that I’m “Theater Kid Adjacent” so I love doing a super deep dive into my characters AND everybody else’s 😂 But I’m definitely the type of person who likes to write pages of lore and background for my PCs in D&D (for my eyes only obviously haha), so I can see where other people would find it exhausting!

[@endorsedbryce]

Reading this I can't help but feel like something's off about your approach. It shouldn't feel it shouldn't take more than a few minutes So write down some lines on the paper with some opinions attached to it.

[@StephaniePlaysGames]

@@endorsedbryce Honestly it took our group a bit, but a lot of that had to do with character creation as a whole our first time. It was a process I loved and I definitely pre-read everything, but I can understand where it might not be everyone’s cup of tea 🤷‍♀️ Some people are much more comfortable with more emergent style of character creation and backstory development and prefer it to happen as they go - and some of us are theatre kids 😂😂😂

[@philiphockenbury6563]

As for some of the comments, I can struggle with writing, and I was also trying to learn the system and figure out everything mechanically. And then I had to create information for about half a dozen characters. Which was, very tiring. It was the most prep that I had to put into a character.

[@Kholan95]

I totally recommend doing this and throwing in the Bonds system in His Majesty the Worm. It's consice and elegant, adding both a small game mechanism and simplify the complexity of relationships into a single concept.

[@StephaniePlaysGames]

Yes! I _love_ His Majesty the Worm, Josh did such a great job on it! I’ve only gotten to read through it and haven’t gotten to run it yet but it’s definitely going to get a video at some point!

[@Kholan95]

@@StephaniePlaysGames yeees! I can't wait

[@ignaciozegers5267]

Nice content! I've been finding that TTRPG content can be really general, so it's nice to see videos that are more "ok, there's this, this is how it works, feel free to use it" rather than a long lists of "oh it depends"

[@StephaniePlaysGames]

Thank you for the kind words! And it’s for sure very general! Different things work for different GMs looking for different vibes at different tables and the best way to explore what you like is seeing what’s out there and trying things you’re interested in! 😊

[@MilesAwayGames]

THIS IS GOLD. God I hadn't even thought of porting this over!!! Thanks for cracking my mind open.

[@dantherpghero2885]

We desire . . . a Shrubbery! You said easily obtainable.

[@StephaniePlaysGames]

A Shrubbery you may have! But only if you defeat the Black Beast of Arrrghhh first 😉

[@tomjohnson4922]

just watch out for the Knights who say Neet!

[@unluckystaravia2352]

​​@@tomjohnson4922I hear they have a new name now, didn't catch what the name was, they got incredibly Irrate when I asked what 'it' was changed to

[@tomjohnson4922]

@@unluckystaravia2352 I think as long as everyone can avoid the taunting Frenchmen, we should be okay.

[@PatricRogers]

I see the "3" and "5" on youe shirt and kept thinking "3.5e", Fun with ADHD 😂

[@icon_o_clast]

Doing this definitely makes the setting feel more alive. We ended up using the relationships section in Candela Obscura, which are meant for PC connection ideas, to make a side cast of V5 style NPCs attached to our characters.

[@StephaniePlaysGames]

Yesss I also really like the relationship section in CO! That’s a great way to use that!

[@MCRP-Games]

Love this! Combined with "project clocks" and the Fabula Ultima relationship system and you basically have a whole game system that actually encourages organic sandbox gameplay. Food for thought... I'll definitely try to develop something and experiment on my home group.

[@StephaniePlaysGames]

@@MCRP-Games Yesss I love project clocks! It’s always fun when players start to really embrace the idea that they can, you know, do the things they want to do! 😂

[@MCRP-Games]

@@StephaniePlaysGames it's hard sometimes, isn't it? Sometimes it feels like some role-playing games (not gonna name names...🤐) train the creativity out of players.

[@kurtoogle4576]

I played a lot of VtM, and looking at my DMing prep, I'm laughing because I've already nabbed for it and didn't realise it. I also like the VtM influence rules, and it works well in D&D, but you have to restrict the amounts.

[@StephaniePlaysGames]

It’s such a good system for storytelling, I imagine the more I play the more that’ll probably happen too! 😂

[@Drudenfusz]

I prefer the relationship map that happens in Fiasco, since it is usually not just connections, but also comes with an inbuilt tension.

[@StephaniePlaysGames]

I definitely love doing Fiasco style maps! I know they’re not some people’s favorite because they don’t love interparty tension… but I do! 😂

[@willmendoza8498]

Good stuff. My personal favorite are the hometown and relationship questions from Kids on Bikes. They are very quick and evocative. I use them in almost all my games now.

[@StephaniePlaysGames]

Yesss I love Kids on Bikes! I’ll definitely be highlighting that one at some point 😊

[@pastverb1]

Lol! That "because we're not savages" needs to be a recurring clip. 😂

[@paulwoolsey]

Apocalypse Keys goes even further, driving inter-party attachments out of the character creation process, building this relationship map using Bonds, and then allowing the players to utilize those bonds in roleplaying moments to alter dice rolls. It is a core component of the game engine, rather than an optional bolt-on.

[@StephaniePlaysGames]

Oooooh I’ll have to check it out! I actually think it’s in my library because I’m pretty sure a friend enjoys their character creation as well. Thanks for the recommendation! ☺️

[@BigCowProductions]

I like the idea! I currently use Notion to add connections and all that. But there is a mindmap thing you can do in obsidian where you put connections and you can see a visual connection of it all

[@StephaniePlaysGames]

@@BigCowProductions Yesss I love Notion and that ONE FEATURE is what always temps me into using Obsidian 😂 I could theoretically use both, but then my system gets a little lax and I start losing things between them. I just want Notion to implement a feature like that 😂😂😂

[@shaxberd7211]

Desires and ambitions remind me of Burning Wheel. Very cool video!

[@StephaniePlaysGames]

Thanks for the kind words! 😊 I really like the character creation for Burning Wheel, I’ve only gotten to read that one at this point.

[@namelessspook7987]

I've been debating on trying this for awhile, but I haven't been running long term D&D games to really use it. There is a similar thing in Kids on Bikes that revolves around a Q&A session with the players to establish how they know and what they feel about each other. It's been a lot of fun to incorporate into session 0.

[@StephaniePlaysGames]

I love Kids on Bikes! I’ve only been a player in that one for short games, I’ll have to read through it! 😊

[@namelessspook7987]

@@StephaniePlaysGames I've only played a few myself, but I'm planning a Kids on Brooms game so I'm finally digging into the rules as written. The Q&A portion really is a stream lined version of the VtM method that focuses on the players more than the setting. It lacks the touch stones and other NPCs but really encourages the players to build bonds instead. My players have also been eager to bring it into other systems on their own, so that says a lot to me.

[@ABitterWoman]

Stephanie, WHYY....er, I mean, subscribed 💜

[@StephaniePlaysGames]

JEN! 💕😂 Thanks friend!

[@PatricRogers]

Fun ideas presented well 😀

[@StephaniePlaysGames]

Thanks for the kind words!

[@knaz7468]

Cool idea. I definitely like anything that gets players more invested. I have a slight challenge doing this with a fallout campaign i started. They are all childhood friends that grew up in the same vault (players decided this unanimously). So there is already a ton of best buddy energy and their collective desire is to protect their vault relatives from the wasteland that they just stepped out into for the first time ever. It's been both easy for me as GM, and hard in some ways to make more complex life long connections like your map. We decided to do "campfire stories" where the players roundtable and make up stories on the spot that automatically become canon. My hidden reason has been to find people from their past i can then "put at risk" or involve in the campaign arc. Fun campaign so far. Never done anything like it before.

[@StephaniePlaysGames]

Oh man! I really want to try Fallout! The book is so pretty and I’ve always loved the games. I actually really love the way you tried to troubleshoot that, it’s funny and it’s a proactive player choice for who they bring on stage for you to target 💁‍♀️😂 I feel like as you go there’ll be other NPCs they latch onto as well!

[@thecrossroadstavern1447]

Do you have advice on how to get a characters goals and aspirations set up when it’s at Session 0? I guess, how much story arc and world building/lore do I set to set up for my characters before they show up to the table?

[@bjhale]

Good channel and good topic! I have been playing and, more often tbh, reading RPGs for decades and I have quite a few of these. Subscribed! To answer your questions, I have certainly thought in relationship maps, but have never written one up. Might do so if I ever publish anything, though. As for your second question, the game that has the most usable mechanics in a D&D game to me is Unknown Armies. Its schools of magic would make good magical items, the avatar system would make a good alternative boon/warlock system, and its madness meters could be mapped to ability scores for those wanting more psychological horror in their games.

[@StephaniePlaysGames]

Yesss I also love to read through RPG systems and settings! I’ve actually never heard of Unknown Armies and now I’m very excited to add it to my reading list! 😊

[@bjhale]

@@StephaniePlaysGames If you liked Vampire, you *may* like Unknown Armies, since it's also a "hidden world" modern fantastic horror, but imagine instead of vampires conspiring against each other in Gothic skyscrapers, it's the cast of Tiger King. Who also happen to be wizards. If nothing else, I do think Greg Stolze is one of the most skilled prose stylists in the industry.

[@tomjohnson4922]

hmm interesting... I like it. My plan once my current campaign is over is to run a more intrigue, political, more roleplay heavy one where someone tries to assassinate the king... this concept would come in handy.

[@StephaniePlaysGames]

Yesss I love political intrigue! I highly recommend looking at Justin Alexander’s blog and/or book if you haven’t already - he has some really great tips for this sort of thing too!

[@MarkCherkowski]

So the 2 different D&D 5e campaigns that I run I basically kidnapped the party and thrust them in another part of the world. No relationship with each other, and no connection to their past lives, and a rampant end of the world scenario happening... so definitely no time for any ties or relationships etc. 😅 I may be a bit railroady, but they are enjoying it. Next campaign I will probably try to use something like this to connect them with the world a little more.

[@StephaniePlaysGames]

Bahahaha I think that sounds like a blast! I think people are fine with a little bit more railroady stuff when you’re setting things up, especially if everyone’s having fun! 😊

[@ajdynon]

A mechanic I’d like to see stolen is Loresheets from Legends of the Wulin.

[@StephaniePlaysGames]

Oooooh I don't know that one! I'm definitely going to look into it! 😊

[@Stickyickyslapshot]

I've never done the relationship map. Does everyone work on it together or is this just for the GM. But whenever I run a one shot I always use the fog from curse of strahd to trap everyone in one area so the one shot doesn't become a 15 shot lol

[@StephaniePlaysGames]

Everyone makes it together! It’s really fun, especially when one character admires another but that character thinks they’re annoying and stuff like that 😂 And for sure those characters can’t actually escape without *ahem* doing THE THING, but I really like the lack of metagaming so I thought it’d be a reasonable goal at the start of the game before they have to alter it

[@Stickyickyslapshot]

@@StephaniePlaysGames you must run the best games

[@StephaniePlaysGames]

Hahaha I don’t know about that- but I do know that I certainly try to!!

[@Gangrel442003]

I hate to break this to you, Miss Stephanie, the only thing the current edition of Vampire is good for, is toilet paper in an outhouse...

[@Fletch55]

Wait, we're not supposed to cook the character's families to get them to hate the BBEG? That explains why they were so mad after.

[@StephaniePlaysGames]

😂 it’s a common mistake, a lot of GMs tend to assume their PCs are just hangry 😉

[@Fletch55]

@@StephaniePlaysGames Feed them Snickers, not people. Got it. That wasn't in the Dungeon Master Guide, so an easy misconception I'm sure.

[@endorsedbryce]

Having done a few of these, I feel like you've glossed over the best part relationship maps. That's when you start making connections between different players' touch stones or other players characters and touchstone's, or touchstones and major NPCs. Here you have PCs associated NPCs are mere bullet points. Give them their own bubble near the player characters. But further to the outside of the circle. Then give two or three major NPCs their own bubbles in the middle. Then during session zero we not only define the lines between the PCs. But also between each NPC and their touchstones. (Not all touchstones are positive or mutual relationships) However where it starts to get good is when we choose to draw lines between any two NPC bubbles. Perhaps your Sweet grandmother, is it ghoul or informant of another PC. Maybe your Sire is the bitter rival of another PC's sire. Of course these relationships while known by the players aren't known by the payer characters at the start of the game. Leading to naturally occurring future conflicts and drama to be resolved later. I've seen entire plots weaved entirely out of the NPC to NPC connections that someone choose to throw down on the relationship map at session zero.

[@BigCowProductions]

This helped me understand this all much more. Thanks

[@1stbridge]

Sound like my worst nightmare game

[@StephaniePlaysGames]

Ah yes, I * checks notes * …hate seeing what story ideas my friends have…

[@djbslectures]

❤

[@ssaberwolf]

I wish we could just use ancestry/heritage/lineage instead of "species". It feels to me like even further in a direction away from all these different kinds of people just being people.

[@BigCowProductions]

​@@Apeiron242precisely

[@docmcstuffin35]

Why bother with all of this for D&D? Why do my characters have to be living? Speak to dead is a thing. Rivalries work in Vampire because it isn't the kind of game where players can just kill any rival they encounter eventually (possibly until the end of the game.) and may well cost you humanity as well and create more enemies. D&D doesn't work that way. There isn't the kind of inherit issues with killing rivals in D&D and the game gives the players very few meaningful ways to interact with the rivals outside of combat. Add to the fact that touchstones would lack the inter tangled mechanics. I like the over all idea of the game but I don't understand why not just play a game that actually focuses on and favors a type of play where for example a character's map would matter.

[@StephaniePlaysGames]

Well, I mean, the easy option is...don't do it if you don't want to do it? 🤷‍♀️ This is here as an option for people who are interested in having more NPC centric story hooks and stakes that actually _mean_ something to their players. Which is why living NPCs are preferable, you can speak to the dead but they definitely don't offer nearly as much in terms of investment from your PCs. I'm not sure why the emphasis is on rivalries because there's many more types of relationships your PCs can have with people - but also in DnD you don't have to just let them kill whoever they want, rival or no. Or if they do, their actions don't have to be without issues/stakes/consequences. As the DM, you can _give_ more mechanical meaning to their touchstones, like rolling advantage/disadvantage if you want. But to me the Relationship Map in VtM isn't about mechanics so much as about helping your players create and develop characters with meaningful stories and lives and to help figure out how they want things to be intertwined.

[@docmcstuffin35]

@@StephaniePlaysGames I think we aren't seeing eye to here. Every game has a focus. D&D's focus is going to a dungeon and fighting monster and evading danger. Being a big hero. That's where the drama from a D&D game comes from by design. Vampire is about interpersonal drama. I don't under why not just play Vampire: the Masquerade instead of taking the relationship map, which is a really big time investment mechanic for little pay off in a game where the players can eventually cast Wish, Resurrection, Miracle, Restoration and many other spells that could eliminate all of the interpersonal drama and stakes. I am also very leery about adding rules from another game book that my players probably aren't interested in playing and if they are, why are we playing D&D?

[@StephaniePlaysGames]

@@docmcstuffin35 I agree we’re not seeing eye to eye here. Every game has scaffolding. You can use it as is, OR you can tinker with things regardless of what base system you use and make the Frankenstein system of your dreams, that fits exactly what you’re looking for during play. If I want to play vampires, I start with VtM, if I want more mechanics of a different kind, I start with a different system. Just because you don’t understand the benefits of using the relationship map outside of VtM doesn’t mean that nobody else does 🤷‍♀️ The important part of TTRPGs is to remember that no business or person - large or small - can tell anyone how to play a game of make believe with your friends 🌸

[@Ger3214]

So how about just getting off 5e and D&D altogether and just play something else. imo 5e has been a very dry game since after the second year of its run, it's mechanics are fit for combat and people complained about 4e being like a board game, this is just a sit and hit a hp sponge simulator. So many other great games out there, open the door people and step away from WotC and the joke that is the brand of D&D.

[@StephaniePlaysGames]

@@Ger3214 Because I like 5e 🤷‍♀️ I play tons of other systems, including Dragonbane which is why I made this video. I also play 5e. And no matter what system I’m in - I enjoy tinkering with mechanic because that is fun for me. It’s okay if it isn’t for you. Just because you don’t like kickball doesn’t mean that you need to go tell everybody else how much you think kickball sucks 🌸

[@BigCowProductions]

Because maybe we like the rules and mechanics 5e has, as well as its modularity, and enjoy the aspects of 5e that are 'automated' via the rules and match our interests in what we don't need rules for