Stealth, Concealment, and Cover in D&D - A Complete Guide and Critique

[@zchrmills]

As a new DM, these kinds of videos are so helpful, and your illustrations, slides, and clear explanations are wonderful. Thanks for the diligence and work you put into these! And congrats on your new book!

[@esperthebard]

Thank you Zachary!

[@TheDude003]

@@foolsfoil999 😂🤣 15 Miles!

[@nadezhdaposlednaya6526]

Bad thing that this video gives you wrong answers. Actually it is incorrect in almost every point.

[@sirpiken]

@@nadezhdaposlednaya6526 where's your video?

[@DvirPick]

11:55 I would personally rule it like the arrowslit principal, where you can shoot past your allies no problem if they are right next to you, but not when they are right next to the enemy.

[@rasimir6124]

Im trying to implement this rule: At the start of the session, we roll initiative and note down their roll. If there's a combat incoming, I secretly roll the initiative of the monsters while "just testing my dice". With this rule, "roll initiative" doesn't break the flow and if there's a surprise, they wouldn't know it is coming. At the end of the combat, we will roll the initiative again. Edit: I implemented this rule because i tried surprising them once and what RAW suggests broke the flow. However, since implementing this rule, I have not surprised them... YET!

[@garryame4008]

This is by far the most useful and succinct video on stealth in 5e

[@Blazbaros]

That was incredibly insightful, turns out I've been doing Surprise Rounds from 4e the entire time, it just felt more intuitive.

[@esperthebard]

I think that's the better way to go.

[@TheRedVelvetScare]

I think surprise rounds are helpful, but I also find joy and suspense in players and at the table when I tell my players out of the blue to roll initiative and spring the attacks from others, then go into the next rounds. Honestly, it's whatever works and feels good for your table though. Good video.

[@thomaswillems6384]

As a DM, my solution to the surprise dilemma is to describe an ambush first, but don’t make attacks out of combats yet. I.e. “All of a sudden you hear a mighty roar behind you, as a sabertooth tiger jumps out from behind the rock”. That will then be the point where we roll initiative, the players are aware of danger, but they were also caught by surprise. Thus in the first round everyone is surprised and the tiger can make that ambushing attack. Depending on the situation I would also give the tiger advantage for being hidden, because even though the characters have seen him now, narratively this all happens really quick and the tiger just pounced on them out of nowhere. But that’s just my take on it, these are some of the most DM dependent rules in the game I think.

[@MrJerks93]

This is a great distinction between player and character knowledge. Mechanically I don't have a problem with the surprise round, but I have at times allowed an out of turn attack to initiate things (a single attack, not an attack action).

[@Battleguild]

I think they should have just made Surprised a Condition with their current system. It would be a nice and short info block, stored with other effects that could potentially happen to a creature. Surprised should also skip your interaction with the round, not just your own turn. Can be really annoying for the Assassin who can't Assassinate a Guard, because of a poor Initiative roll, despite the Guard becoming Surprised. The same could be said for Bleeding (Sword of Wounding) and Ignited (Magmim*) effects. Drenched (water), Doused (oil), and Dazed (can't concentrate) would've been nice inclusions as well.

[@fisyx]

I think the intention with surprise is that you roll for initiative after you learn there is a threat but before you declare what you do in response. In your example, it might something like "you're carefully walking through the ice caves when a bolt of tan fur and sharp teeth jumps from behind a boulder! Roll for initiative!" and then adding justification for those who aren't surprised. I use surprise fairly often in my games and in most cases it works out something like that. I think the root of the issue is that in general, in stealthy situations it can be unclear when combat it supposed to start. Like, if you're on watch during the night and you hear a twig snapping you're gonna try to wake your allies but what about the creature stalking you? Is it just gonna let you do that? Everyone else is asleep, are they automatically surprised? Compare that to a straight ambush like your scenarios and I think there's a bit of blurring in terms of what happens when.

[@fisyx]

It's tight timing and it's a little unintuitive. But it works as far as I've seen.

[@codebracker]

The surprise is less about not being able to act because you are shocked, but is meant to be for attacking enemies who are not aware that there is going to be combat. So if an enemy is hunting a dwarf while the rogue is stealthed, the enemy would not be surprised by the rogue because they are ready for combat

[@Centaur255]

This is a very clear, concise, and yet in-depth look at a set of topics that intersect in a complicated way. Thanks Esper!

[@perlygatekeeper]

It was really nice to finally be able to put a face to the voice! Stealth is difficult to understand and every DM I play with does it differently.

[@squashedeyeball]

Yet another epic level Esper encounter! We were blessed again. Great presentation! The visuals you created really help with the delivery. As always and as it has been for many years, you put out the greatest d&d content on youtube. The most knowledgeable, experienced and of highest quality in all aspects. Great point about surprise attacks and initiative.

[@Lightzy1]

Love this style

[@TheQuietKid13]

This is exactly what I want to see! Please do more like this. Surprise round rules, condition drools.

[@patricks2645]

As a DM that gave my party's druid a nature's mantle (allows for bonus action hide), this is so incredibly useful. Great job explaining the minutiae of hiding in 5e.

[@doubleg281]

I use a homebrew rule where the hide action upgrades your cover. 1/2 becomes 3/4, and 3/4 becomes full cover. Love the rule about moving from heavy to light obscurement. Makes a lot of other rules fall into place

[@Mr_Maiq_The_Liar]

The rules don't really specifically say anywhere that you have to be "lightly obscured" to attempt to hide, just that wood elves and those with the skulker feet can attempt to hide if lightly obscured regardless of circumstances (so like, standing in a moonlit field) and the PHB page 177 says "The DM decides when circumstances are appropriate for hiding.... (rules for stealth checks vs perception) You can't hide from a creature that can see you clearly," then goes to say if invisible you can always hide, and if in combat you are alert to danger all around you unless the DM overrules it. So you don't have to be lightly obscured to hide if the DM thinks you can hide there. So hiding with cover or creative environmental interaction. This means you can hide in broad daylight behind a rock. But it also means that you can’t hide just anywhere you want just because there is light obscurement! Unless you have the skulker feat of course. There shouldn’t be a situation where a dimly lit area has you roll to hide from someone without dark vision but be automatically noticed by someone with (unless skulker feat is involved)

[@kevinsmith9013]

Riiiiight. So instead of lightly obscured you're talking about having cover. That's what he discussed. Without EITHER concealment or cover, there is no hiding.

[@Mr_Maiq_The_Liar]

@@kevinsmith9013 not necessarily. It just says “when the dm thinks it’s appropriate” which as a DM yourself you should note that: the text is not mechanical for a reason. You can for example hide outside of a field of vision, hide by being elevating exploring the fact that creatures rarely look up, hide behind a area enemies walk past. Also you can’t hide in light obscurement as a default. We know this because mask of the wild and the shulker feat reference being able to hide just because you are lightly obscured (by natural foliage for wood elf mask of wild) as something you need a specific feature to do! So hiding just out in the open in dim light without that feat is actually a no no.

[@greghamilton9505]

“Behind a rock” you mean behind cover …

[@jasonz7788]

Great work Sir esper! Thank you!!

[@sixpack4blue]

Very informative and easy to understand. Thanks for pulling this together... Other areas that 5e seems to be a bit unclear on (at best) or downright nonsensical at worst is a)invisibility in a combat scenario and/or b)advantage/disadvantage (particularly when ranged attacks are involved)

[@kmg9763]

Thanks for adding different scenarios and making it very visual. Kudos!

[@duaneepps7346]

I like the branching into new video types.

[@cabie58]

Dig your new vids, Esper!

[@patytrico]

Great topic! Here listening and envying the dragon at the back :)

[@dekushrublily]

I just started getting into D&D in the last year or so, and this vid is very helpful in learning how to play. Thank you!

[@esperthebard]

Really glad to know this is helpful for you!

[@darrinstanfill6846]

Was gonna say exactly what I read first off in the comments . I’ve been painting miniatures and building terrain as a hobby for the past couple years. I absolutely love it and I love the lore . I’ve gathered like,seven or eight five e books as well. I just kinda fell in love with this hobby but haven’t played yet! Your videos are a godsend for me atm. Gonna try to run a small session with the kiddos tonight. Lol no other grownups I know are into thos

[@esperthebard]

Enjoy your session, and dive on in!

[@darrinstanfill6846]

@@esperthebard for sure. Will definitely keep diving into your content as well. Good stuff man. I remember some time ago when I first started getting into the whole thing ,your videos were a big part of why

[@loganmcgee18]

I am diggin' this type of video. I really liked the text on screen for your most poignant point. Maybe evenmake it's own fade in and out cut away, of just the quote on screen. Making it more impactful, hit harder, and you get that "jumpcut" effect without having to do a jumpcut - if that makes sense. Similiar to when you have two people talking to each other like an interview, when one starts to talk for a more extended duration, you'll drop to a wide-shot, than a singular and back, as the one person has only talked it won't feel like it.

[@domarvisais6178]

Good Explanation, thanks

[@IkaikaArnado]

For cover and stealth, i'd use the cover rules for the monsters' perception checks, but flip them around. The creature gets a +2 to the perception check for 3/4 cover, and a +5 to to half, if there is no other obscurement.

[@Yeldibus]

Really nice video. My party rogue keeps complaining that he can never get a surprise attack (or even advantage from attacking from hidden) from jumping out from a corner to initiate combat. Thanks to this video, I'll now try and run it so that he gets his advantage if the enemy is not paying attention or is distracted. I'd say just keep experimenting with new videos! There are plenty of people - like myself - who just want to see you succeed no matter what you do. :)

[@MrGreensweightHist]

I kind of like this format, at least once in a while. Seeing the shelves behind a person helps tell you a bit more about them than you get from just image based videos. More of a personal feel.

[@tyleremery7088]

Very thorough, concise, and useful! I like that you not only discuss the RAW but also how you would suggest ruling it.

[@gstaff1234]

Nice video and I especially liked the map usage on this challenging subject. Hoping 5.5e will clear this into a single page

[@andromedastormcrow3288]

So as a trauma survivor I need distraction and imput to keep the noise...the dark thoughts and memories away. So I need to look for pleasant noise constantly, and your voice is kinda perfect for that. So I am probably going to listen to.....everything on your channel...thank you. I am seeking thereapy as soon as it is possible

[@dminard1]

RAW you can [hide] behind a rock and come out into the open. The enemy gets a chance to see you by using their perception but until they do you remain hidden until you decide to end the hidden state. You could hide behind a wall and then walk right up to an enemy and all they would get is the chance to roll their perception (either active or passive depending on if they would normally be looking for something).

[@rogueDND]

15:15 You can hide until you are discovered or you stop hiding. So if you walk out of your rock you would dismiss your prior hiding check. (RAW)

[@dminard1]

@@rogueDND the hide check is when you roll your dex to attempt to hide. Being discovered means that the enemy made a perception check higher than your original dex check. Ending your hide state is an active decision where you either choose to end it or some action of yours ( like attacking the enemy) ends it for you. Once you hide out of sight just creeping into sight doesn't end your hide

[@rogueDND]

@@dminard1 What I mean is that deciding to come out from the rock to plain sight its you choosing to end your hiding, there is not another perception check involved but the one you already had beaten. The actions you can take are to either stay hiding or attempting an attack/skill check against the target. (The creeping into sight is just RP). You may try to hide and walk behind someone distracted but only at the DM´s discretion.

[@dminard1]

@@rogueDND you roll the dex before the enemy gets a perception check. Then they may at the DM discretion take additional perception checks as the situation changes but once you roll a dex check you don't have to roll again. Sneaking up behind the enemy using hide is literally what hide does. As written and logically it doesn't make sense for coming out from behind the rock to end your hide.

[@rogueDND]

​@@dminard1 You dont roll before the enemy gets a perception check, you roll your stealth against a perception check, passive or not. Stealth its a contested skill check. Once you succeed, now you are in "hiding" and can land an attack with advantage or if battle have not started yet you can infflict the surprise effect. Quote:"Sneaking up behind the enemy using hide is literally what hide does" - its true but you had to be heavly obscured before that, would that be in the darkness or behind a rock, so my point is that leaving your spot and come out in the open is not really a "good call". When you can just can call an attack/skillcheck and thats it. Now you RP that you sneaked behind your target and slashed at his throat. Anyway, the way that gets you more fun its the good one.

[@Trashloot]

Firstly i want to say that i love rule discussions in any way shape or form because it inspires me while working on my own game. 22:18 The issue is that you start the combat on the "wrong trigger" You start the combat and roll initiative the moment the first Charakter notices its enemies and readies himself for combat, which in this case would be the tiger. But then you would need to rpg in combat turns without any fighting which is weird. Thats why you don't start the combat at that point even tho it would be accurate. I would only roll initiative secretly at this point. The actual combat would either start the moment the dwarf player notices the tiger (if he has higher initiative then the tiger) or when the tiger pounces on the player (if the tiger has higher initiative then everyone who noticed him). But you are right. This rule is cumbersome and there is no clear rule which states when to start the turn based mode.

[@leomarques1978]

Best ever summary I have seen so far in both English and Portuguese (Brazil). Congrats! I fully agree and I also DM as you propose.

[@ianpegg549]

I’ve watched a lot of informative videos about DND, but this one was really well-made. Well done.

[@lynnskelton7971]

I really enjoyed your video and explanation. Regarding surprise and rolling initiatives. I have taken care of some of the issues you mentioned easily at our table by having initiatives rolled at the following points... 1) The beginning of a session. If we are carrying over from a combat from the previous session, we continue with that previous initiative order. Otherwise, everyone rolls at the beginning of a session and we adjust their PC markers accordingly. 2) After all post-combat activities have been done. This is a low moment in the game. I let them loot, investigate, search, and then decide what to do next. At that point, I have them roll initiative. This makes sense to do it then versus at the beginning of the next encounter, thus, taking players out of the moment. 3) I roll initiative for all my planned creature/NPC encounters prior to the session, primarily the night prior or when developing the encounter. I keep the roll no matter whether it is, low or high or in between somewhere. This allows me to keep the pace going without having to stop and roll for them. Their markers come out when their initiative order occurs. If they are doing a surprise attack first, they will do that attack, but their initiative marker still doesn't come out until their initiative order comes up. This helps with a few things... 1) It keeps everyone in the moment of the encounter instead of taking them out of it when a DM says, "Roll for Initiative" at the beginning of an encounter. When that happens, it has a tendency to take the players mind out of the moment so everyone can roll their initiative, provide their results, and the DM marks them down or adjust their markers. Then they all, including the DM, have to get back into the mindset of the game. Already having initiative rolled allows us to go straight into the encounter and keep the intensity up. 2) It allows me to do the surprise attack and then move right into initiative order without having to say, "Roll for Initiative." Again, allowing everyone to stay in the moment versus taking them out of it. 3) It helps keep the pace moving...again for the same reason as above, we don't have to stop at that moment to roll initiatives. 4) It creates a slightly more realistic type encounter. Unless their is some social interaction between the PCs and NPCs or Creatures who can communicate wit them, then they don't have time to necessarily plan what they are going to do. It's,... > "You see a group of goblins, from about 60 feet up ahead, riding black wolves charging toward you, the wolves letting out guttural growls and goblins yelping battle cries. What are you doing, Dnapor?" (first in initiative and not as much time to think about what they will do) VERSUS > "You see a group of goblins, from about 60 feet up ahead, riding black wolves charging toward you, the wolves letting out guttural growls and goblins yelping battle cries." Roll for initiative. We all stop, roll initiatives, adjust markers, and then I continue, "Okay, Dnapor, what are you doing?" This not only takes them out of the intensity of the moment but also gives Dnapor and the others a bit more time to think about their strategy. Hope this helps and thanks again for the video. This method has been working well for both campaigns I run.

[@esperthebard]

Good tips. I typically have monster/NPC initiatives rolled in advance, but I'd never considered doing that for the player characters. I suppose there's a certain curious excitement around the characters rolling initiative after they see the monster appear.

[@Rattus138]

This is a great video format! Keep em coming!

[@florianw.9545]

This is very cool, Esper. By the way; I loved your narrative episode storys from years ago....

[@esperthebard]

I'm brewing up a big new project ;)

[@DeeperWithDiego]

I learned so much from you. Thank you!

[@RayPoreon]

I personally run surprise like the showdown feature from Desperados III. Each surprising player or npc can 'hold' an action(including movement) and from there, all the prepared actions happen simultaneously. Once those actions are taken, roll initiative.

[@TopaT0pa]

this will not get the views of the rankings, but I think I speak for a lot of DMs when I say: "We need this content" This helps a lot!

[@shenronsgoldfish]

This was so good and clearly described I didn't have to look at the visual representation

[@esperthebard]

Excellent! Glad to know that.

[@stavros2956]

Thanks, that clears some things up.

[@Ghost_in_the_Rain]

Very informative and fun to watch! I especially appreciate this video because I am working on a homebrew class that focuses heavily on stealth via darkness and shadows, so this was quite helpful! 🤘

[@darksavior1187]

In 5E so much of it uses advantage/disadvantage and the handful of situations that give a numeric bonus or minus is so infrequent, I houseruled cover. Cover is just partial or full. If partial, disadvantage on ranged attacks and spells against them, advantage for them on Dex saves. If full, cannot be targeted. I felt like this was easier than trying to remember little +2 or +5 bonuses with partial covers that are twice rare in the game (rare as an occurrence sometimes in play, rare as a type of bonus in the system.) Especially since feats like Sharpshooter and Spell Sniper, often must-picks for PC's who primarily make ranged attacks, completely negate keeping track of anything but full cover nearly all the time. I agree about surprise, its clunky. I can only imagine its to stave off characters and monsters being obliterated by opening attacks that they had no ability to react to at all. This is in keeping with much of the design direction to a less-lethal D&D since 3.5 (see all save or die spells/effects being neutered since as well).

[@alanschaub147]

I really like that optional rule about Hiding.

[@WiIICheck]

Great video. So helpful as a DM. Thank you!

[@vinx.909]

i think the surprised status effect and initiative works. misnamed perhaps, but functionally makes sense. the person can't act until their turn determined by initiative, which doesn't appear to be anything more then how quickly someone can act. if you are surprised but have high initiative you recover more quickly and can react to things quicker despite them catching you of guard for a moment. the problem i think comes in when for instance half the party is spotted (group a), but the other half (b) then strikes from the shadow. is the enemy surprised? did they see the tread coming? they were unaware of b, so yes? but they were aware of a, so no? this is where the system truly breaks.

[@doubleg281]

The enemies wouldn't be surprised because A alerted them to danger but group B would still get advantage from being hidden.

[@windspast]

To complicate things a bit with Surprise, we've all know that one example where your bad guy NPC is introducing himself, and someone immediately, "I attack!" So the question is then, does the person who yells out get a free attack? Is there surprise? Or is initiative immediately rolled since the villain would be totally expecting that. Does everyone roll initiative? Or only the person who yelled to attack and the villain? Or, another option, tell the person who yelled "I attack!" to hold off first and see if anyone else wants to talk first?

[@elnekosauce]

Not only is the enemy not surprised, but let them activate a held action. A powerful one. But to answer your question, depends on the enemy. Stupid gloaty bandit? Surprise round. Immortal lich king? You're about to get feebleminded if you do that.

[@vryafoat777]

Depends on the circumstances. I'de say if the enemy isn't expecting it, like if the rogue is disguised and attacks suddenly, then they might make an attack roll and surprise, but they do not get advantage unless the rogue took the assassin subclass because they are not an unseen attacker. Given that scenario the rogue would have to make a deception check to disguise themselves before hand and/or a sleight of hand check to hide their weapon. Possibly being discovered and compromising any chance of surprise. If the enemy is expecting to meet a party of violent adventurer's then probably just roll initiatives, get held actions off, then combat as usual.

[@TheHighestNoon]

Rolling initiative is an out of character act used for the purpose of keeping track of combat. It does not indicate anything occurring in the game world. So your scenario goes as follows: "I attack!" "Okay, roll initiative. ]]Initiative is rolled[[ Are you trying to surprise Gordo the Bandit King?" "Yes!" "Make a Stealth Check versus Gordo's Passive Perception score." "I rolled a 9!" "Gordo's Passive Perception is 5 due to his proclivity towards wearing a bucket on his head. He is surprised."

[@nicolaezenoaga9756]

Please make more of this!

[@Valandar2]

Minor quibble, Re: The yeti at 6:00 is NOT more than 60 feet away. If the squares are 5', then the yeti is just over 50 feet away. 5e does not do the "alternate 5/10 feet for diagonals" that 3.5e did.

[@Kiwi9552]

I think in the surprise example the initiative would be rolled once the tiger is visible to the party. This means either when it rounds the corner or when it's about to attack, depending on how you rule stealth. Then it would make sense that the rogue is surprised, when suddenly a tiger is next to her and about to swing at her.

[@Smokinindachi]

Love the new type of content

[@a243137]

I am a really big fan of sneaking videogames either horror or spy content. What I did was give auras to the guards and have them react to areas where their aura is not possible to reach. Basically the aura is a vision radius.

[@Spiceodog]

I kind of like your other videos better, but this was well done though . Liked

[@pockets8548]

finally a video on cover

[@isaackarr6576]

I like the idea of a ready action being required to join a surprise round. That way you need a second stealth check to communicate. Surprise to me seems as though you are initiating the combat which would put your initiative as one higher than the creature you attack.

[@explorer47422]

22:15 it doesn't sound right but that's how it actually works and how we played the Rogua abilities, getting advantage on any creature that has yet to take an action and a crit, which is probably why they're not given the big damage swords lol

[@MegaPokefan97]

I would like to see more mechanics being examined in this manner

[@Horlianz]

loved the video! thank you kind soul

[@esperthebard]

You're most welcome!

[@Hissingace110]

This was a great video. I learned a lot. I will say though, I disagree with you about how confusing surprise is in 5e. The characters that are surprised aren't just suddenly stopping their walk, they're being attacked at the position they're currently in just as if the enemy had a surprise round. A character that's trying to spend 3 consecutive turns using all of their movement to get somewhere isn't stopping when it's not their turn, the whole turn is happening at once. 5E's system is superior in my eyes because it makes sense that the character built for 25 passive perception could remain ready to act while another party member is caught off guard. If you still want your players (not the characters) to be surprised themselves by the sudden attack, you could roll initiative for this combat ahead of time instead.

[@thehubbleton]

Great video. Thank you.

[@the_chosen_one5642]

ALGORITHM LETS GOOOOO

[@danjbundrick]

Hi, Esper. I'm back. It's so wonky, I have to watch your video twice.

[@andrewhalmo656]

I suddenly felt the urge to role for initiative😳. I got surprised by you! Your discussion about surprise came out of nowhere! You sneaky bastard didn’t foreshadow this topic in your description😠 Luckily I was able to use my reaction to write this comment after this video ended. Which subsequently ended my turn!

[@drkprcnglit]

Re: surprise in 5e. You talk about surprise making no sense because of the scenario where a hidden tiger leaps out from the brush and triggers initiative on the PCs. You state the party is surprised. The wizard goes first and so has their reaction available to shield a potential tiger attack. They were just walking before so shouldn't they keep doing what they were doing? Etc. (Paraphrasing obv.) I think one thing you don't consider in terms of the mechanics representing the fiction here is that fictionally the tiger has begun initiative because it has leapt out from hiding. This is what triggers initiative. When we roll now the mechanics can match the fiction. Those that are surprised are stunned by the tigers attack and only have an opportunity to defend themselves if they act quickly (i.e. roll a high initiative). Anyone not surprised by the tiger (i.e. those that might have spotted the tiger before the attack or those whose passive or active perception check determined they would see the tiger coming are not surprised and take their turn as normal with the tiger leaping out from hiding. Using your dwarf orc tiger rogue example: You've determined who sees who (I assume that whatever decisions you made are the same ones I would make here). Now, everyone is watching and waiting until the tiger launches from hiding. I as the GM call for initiative because This situation requires the granularity of turn by turn action tracking (that's what initiative does). The tiger is now "leaping out from hiding". We roll initiative. The only on me who is surprised by this is the poor dwarf. Play the turns out according to initiative. I would grant the tiger advantage on its first attack against the dwarf from being "unseen". Im not sure I need to explain a bit further here but I just wanted to point out that the narrative need not suffer from the implementation of 5es mechanics and you can have a narratively satisfying outcome from surprise as 5e does it.

[@chrispeet9446]

I agree. The way I play it is that you get them to roll initiative (they have their "oh shit"moment) and then skip straight to the first in order that isn't surprised. In this example they have no chance to not be surprised as the Cave Tiger is essentially invisible (full cover) until it's turn. So the first thing I'd do after taking initiative is plonk the Tiger down next to them and roll the attack. It's not that they've taken their turn and did nothing (yes this is RAW, but not the intention of the mechanic) the turn order is simply there in the first round to let you as the DM know who is quick witted enough to react (ie: take a Reaction). Then once what is effectively "the surprise round" ends you can just carry straight on as the turn order is already determined. I get that the rules are spread out, sometimes written vaguely, but I've not really encountered any major issues implementing them. TBF I just treated it as a new variant of the surprise round and never thought that hard about it

[@NoNamesLeft0102]

Are there any table top RPGs that have a well written rule book at this point?

[@benpuffer7891]

Thank you for the video. Minor suggestion, numbering the orcs visibly in the cover explanation would have been helpful to follow along. (After watching a second time i see that you did, couldnt see it watching on my phone.)

[@Mr_Maiq_The_Liar]

You actually can’t hide just because you’re lightly obscured from someone without cover. That ability is specific to the skulker feat and mask of the wilde. Some environmental interaction that allows hiding is necessary. You can’t as the first scenario. Hide in a open field of dim light

[@sirpiken]

Thanks for making this, i been looking for the past 2 days on someone actually SHOWING examples of stealth (including out of combat stealth) and it's all just a bunch of people talking and saying the same vague stuff from the PHB.

[@danieltrumble2974]

For suprise combats I have players and monsters roll initiative but whatever player or creature is starting the encounter, Like a tiger ambushing the party or a rogue firing an arrow, will not roll and just be at the top of the initiative due to everything reacting to that event. No issues with people reacting to things that didn't happen but people still get a chance to avoid being suprised.

[@taragnor]

The weirdest part of surprise in 5E to me isn't the default case, but rather in the "can't be surprised' abilities. The problem is that this ability grants no inherent way to penetrate stealth, meaning that if you win initiative in the opening round, you're essentially reacting to nothing when the monsters are hidden. I pretty much just tell players "you sense an incoming attack" but no idea if that's the correct way to do it or not.

[@revgizmo]

Hey algorithm, promote this stuff.

[@esperthebard]

Listen to this fella, Algy!

[@RamonLemmens]

Great video, just wondering what your thoughts are on ambushing in general. I feel the rules dont really support this. Only when everybody "misses" their passive perception (PP) this works. Some players can easily get a PP higher then 20, almost making it impossible to be carried out. (even with -5 in dim light). The other way around goes as well when players ambush enemies and kicking down doors to gain a surprise attack annihilating encounters that way. Now every dungeon has to start with a small fight to alert the whole dungeon ;-)

[@esperthebard]

To have a Passive Perception of 20 or higher, a character would probably need expertise in Perception, a high Wisdom, and the Observant feat. If the player is specifically focusing on making that aspect of the character his strong point, then he should be really good at noticing hiding monsters, and indeed, he's difficult to ambush. The DM shouldn't dismay over that. It's no different than a character specializing into any other area. That said, there are some other ways in which monsters can attempt to hide from such a character: * The monster has very high Stealth (expertise in Stealth plus high Dexterity), and rolls high on its Stealth check. * The monster is invisible (invisibility spell or innate ability to turn invisible), so the character cannot see it no matter how good his Perception is (unless he has something like a see invisibility spell) * Spells like darkness and fog cloud block out sight, when combined with a monster that has blindsight (certain yugoloths have this combo), it makes for a tricky fight I could go on, but D&D is like a giant game of paper-rock-scissors, in which every strategy has a counter-strategy. Don't worry or stress about this, just flow with it and let the characters' strong points function. That's a great thing to experience.

[@NobodyDungeons]

So how I handle hiding is by distinguishing between the hide action, and being hidden. You cannot be hidden in broad view without a stupidly high check, but you can still hide with while being detected by enemies. However, getting you cannot necessary get surprise when you aren’t hidden.

[@explorer47422]

20:45 Rebuttal - the idea initiative is only used for combat or when someone is actively preparing themselves for combat could be misleading. The best way I heard it describe to me is that you roll initiative for everyone in the scene when you need to resolve the order of events whenever 2 or more players or NPCs (not objects) attempt to do something at the same time, and where their actions would interfere with the other's action, either by intent or accident. This is effectively just like rolling an opposed DEX check. This is obvious for combat. For surprise attacks, it still make sense because they're attempting an attack action on one character, while that character is simultaneously attempting to move in a certain direction. Thematically they would stop because they are quite literally 'surprised' and need those 6 seconds to perhaps gather their thoughts or wet their pants as they see a giant sabre-tooth tiger leaping at them, and just represents the attacker being quicker and/or taking advantage of their momentarily 'stunned' condition - initiative in this case just represents the speed of their reaction/reflex to the opposing action or threat, which makes sense as it uses your DEX ability. You could do the same roll for attempting to catch someone who slips in front of you. You could argue that's a dexterity saving throw, but it's literally the same modifier score anyway so mechanically identically, and you can look at the DC as simply being the opposing character's initiative, which is also the same as just an opposed DEX roll, unless you have specific bonuses for intiaitve that don't apply to DEX saves.

[@explorer47422]

Oddly enough the best example where the 5e rule actually works and may be fairer is say 2 players in the party have a bit of a grudge against one another and are eyeing each other up (in a roleplay scenario). One player announces he quickly reaches for his bow to attempt to shoot first. The other play hears him say this and immediately says to the DM I attempt to duck out of the way. Now you could rule it such that the victim has to roll his perception in order to see the attacker reaching for his bow, but what does this oppose? The attacker's DEX check? Which you could argue is like their initiative. But say the victim suceeds in spotting him reaching for the bow, which gives him time to dive out of the way, do they then enter initiative? Which is basically like another DEX check opposed by the attack's DEX once again? But It doesn't make sense for the attacker to have rolled twiced for a single action they're taking (Dex then initiative which uses the same modifier value). A simple initiative roll from both to determine who takes their action first seems like a cleaner way to resolve it. Whoever rolls highest, either shoots, or dives and misses.

[@tonywilson7155]

Agree about redundancy being better for clarity, sadly page count is a huge concern and obstacle for printing books

[@esperthebard]

That is very true. Though perhaps they could have exlcuded 1 page of stuff from the DMG that almost never gets used (e.g. rolling for randomized corridor shapes) and instead put in a comprehensive page about Stealth, which is something that gets used all the time.

[@snozgobler]

Mechanically, the difference between being surprised and not surprised is that there is a section of combat where you have no reaction. Rolling high on your initiative roll and still being surprised means characters who have a high dexterity or who have class features/abilities/spells active that improve their initiative are more likely to be able to react to a surprise attack. What this means, in effect, is that when you see the tiger as it leaves the darkness to pounce, if you are surprised and roll well, you might be able to do something to defend yourself, for example cast shield, but if you are surprised and roll poorly, you are completely surprised and at the mercy of the attacker. I understand the concern with the idea that you get a turn, but can't do anything in that turn, and that on a meta level you know information your character doesn't, but I think that the introduction of reaction effects makes the 5e system better than a surprise round. Smart monsters will coordinate and all ambush the wizard with bows/slings etc. as they are likely to be the most dangerous enemy at range. With a surprise round, the wizard would be likely to take all those hits, but with the current system, if they rolled well on initiative, they would have the option of reacting to the ambush with a shield spell, potentially reducing their incoming damage significantly. If it was a fighter with the protector style who rolled well on initiative, then they could react to the ambush by defending an ally from a big hit etc. This system gives the players a little more agency when it comes to dealing with an ambush rather than simply failing to see it coming because their passive perception was too low and possibly losing a character before the fight even starts.

[@NobodyDungeons]

So, playing in an ice wind dell campaign I ended up skinning a bunch of yetis which ended up giving me natural camouflage for light obscurement which with a wood elf rogue meant I was nowhere near the party taking pot shots at advantage without anyone ever discovering my presence.

[@miljanmatovic880]

Good stuff

[@micahiwaasa9304]

Surprise rounds are a real problem when they compound with rolling high initiative (which high dex sorts tend to do). It lopsides encounters ridiculously and makes 1st turn wins or TPKs.

[@doctortequila5268]

At 5:40 I don't understand how the yeti is more than 60ft away from the dwarf- isn't 5e geometry non-Euclidian? The diagonal distance is the same as the horizontal distance, which would mean the yeti is (barely) within the dwarf's 60ft of darkvision. I must be misunderstanding a core mechanic here.

[@esperthebard]

The yeti is just beyond 60 feet away from the dwarf. Well, actually it's more than that even because it's up on a high rock shelf. Each square of this map represents 5 feet. 3 squares horizontal or vertical is 15 ft, and 2 squares diagonal is 14 ft and some change (typically rounded up to 15 ft). Want to see for yourself? Take a ruler and a square, compare the distance from side to side horizontally vs. corner to corner diagonally.

[@roylecomte4606]

Please explain 'The Fantasy Trip' TFT hex map 'shoot to miss friend ' arrow shot

[@guilhermemonocores4872]

For surprise critical hit to happen, the assassin has to roll high in order to be hidden from the creature and then roll high again on their own initiative, because if the creature's turn ends before the assassin can attack, it is no longer surprised after the end of the creature's turn. There's a point during which you ask for too many rolls and no matter how high your bonus is, the more times you roll the higher the chances you'll fail. I get the feeling that the surprise rule was made so that creatures are rarely taking damage while surprised. Now, it's no secret some classes are stronger than others but what few people know is that it was kind of on purpose. The paladin got extended months of development that surely encroached on the Ranger's and Sorcerer's development time. The wizards team were taking the effort to highlight and prop up wjat they thought d&d was about, and that explains why the assassin and necromancer are weaker subclasses, aswell as the trap that is buying poison in 5e: 100 gp for only 1d4 damage. D&D was all about goody two shoes heroes on holy quests to save the world (deus vult) and not about those seen as evil or dishonored options. If you got this far, I'm begging you to please play another RPG.

[@FarremShamist]

Do remember that, when it comes to perception in 5e, you cannot really roll lower than your passive perception. It's basically a skill floor for your character on that singular territory. There are times where it's not the case I think, but by and large, that's how it ends up working.

[@TheHighestNoon]

There is no official ruling that states this. Passive Perception is used when you are not actively searching for something. Perception Checks are used when you are actively searching for something. They represent different things. You most certainly can roll below your Passive Perception when making a Perception Check - they are two distinct actions.

[@ItMeansSun]

Mandatory comment lorem ipsum. Great vid, really informative and I love the background music

[@johnsiegmund7504]

I'm not sure I agree with your position that creatures can attempt to hide when they're only lightly obscured. In the first example, even though the tiger is in dim light (-5/disadvantage to the rogue's perception to see the tiger,) it is still in direct line of sight of the rogue, making it impossible for the tiger to try to hide from the rogue. If the roles were reversed (the rogue was trying to hide from the tiger,) the rogue wouldn't be able to attempt to hide unless the rogue had the Skulker feat, which would allow the rogue to attempt to hide when they're only lightly obscured from the target (in this case, dim light would make them lightly obscured.)

[@Icebrick2]

I agree, you can only hide when you're heavily obscured, not lightly obscured. Otherwise the Skulker feat and Wood Elf's Mask of the Wild would serve no purpose.

[@esperthebard]

Keep watching, I get into all that. Regarding the scenario at 3:52, the idea is that the tiger was in full cover before the rogue came along. Now if the rogue was already aware of the tiger and observing it, it could not use merely light obscurement to hide. But in this case, the rogue had not yet noticed it before entering there. What's the point of disadvantage to her Perception from the dim light, if she would just automatically notice the tiger? Imagine it this way, you walk into your living room at night, which has only dim light from a little hallway nightlight. There is a thief hiding in the dim light and maybe half cover from some furniture. He's completely still, you didn't expect him-we can easily imagine that he is hidden from you. Now let's say he moves and you see him, now he's not going to be able to hide himself from you again until he gets totally out of sight (unless he is a wood elf or has the Skulker feat). That's the best I can make of it, because as I get into in the video, the rules never come right out and say these things-it's largely left up to the DM. As I state, there should have been like 1 or 2 clarifying sentences about what level of concealment/cover you need to enter hiding AND to remain hiding if you move into lesser concealment/cover.

[@Icebrick2]

@@esperthebard The disadvantage to perception still matters for stuff like hidden doors and traps. The way I'd interpret the rules, if you can't hide in light obscurement, that also means you can't hide in heavy obscurement then go out into light obscurement.

[@esperthebard]

@@Icebrick2 That would mean rogues couldn't use their bonus action to hide during combat, pop out from behind a wall to sneak attack, then go back behind cover-because every time the rogue leans out from behind the wall, he no longer has full cover, and thus automatically is spotted.

[@Icebrick2]

@@esperthebard Yes, except under certain circumstances: "However, under certain circumstances, the Dungeon Master might allow you to stay hidden as you approach a creature that is distracted, allowing you to gain advantage on an attack before you are seen." This also doesn't apply in situations where the rogue doesn't need to rely on cover, like when they're in darkness and can just target the enemy normally.

[@BardedWyrm]

Is it just me or is that yeti in darkness only about 50' away from the dwarf? ~6:04

[@richfredrickson2604]

How do you handle the Alert Feat and Feral Instincts Barbarian feature without the surprise round? With these features it's almost better to let the attacking creature beat you on initiative because if you do beat them you can only hold your action which means you can only move or attack when the attacker presents itself, not both.

[@Keyce0013]

Feral Instinct requires you to use a Bonus Action to enter a Rage before taking any other actions during a round where you are surprised, but then you can act normally. Alert prevents you from being surprised at all, so you can take your Movement, Action, Reaction, Bonus Actions etc., as you would on any other round of combat.

[@UncleBBQ]

I cannot remember who suggested the initiative rule, but it is something I implement now. My players roll initiative once at the start of the game, and then at the end of their most recent combat. I can then pull the initiative out whenever I need to, not even needing to be combat encounters, but even things such as intense social encounters. "The crazed prophet swings his arms around in a crazy fashion, spouting jibberish to onlookers and causing disturbances inside the chapel. He does not seem like he is attacking anyone, however he is acting unhinged and you are unsure of what will transpire if he is left alone for much longer. Ranger, what do you do in this situation?" Not only does it help rule out the "Initiative is only for combat" grievance that exists, but it can lead to much more diplomatic focussed interactions. And then obviously for combat, "You see the behemoth of blue, multiple legged lizard looking creature move unnaturally quickly across the mountain to meet you on the path, cracks of electric energy flowing around it's jaw. It's eyes focussed on the Barbarian as it is the biggest piece of meat in the group, and it seems excited. Wizard, what do you do?"

[@esperthebard]

I've heard a number of people speak favorably about pre-rolled initiative. I'll have to give it a try at some point. I often pre-roll monster/NPC initiatives, but not player characters. It seems like it would rob the game of that special moment in which everyone at the table is rolling initiatives and seeing who got what result and anticipating the incoming challenge. It also would screw with features that characters might or might not use, depending upon what the circumstance is when initiative comes up. I suppose having the characters roll initiative in a vacuum with no context just feels off, but until I give it a fair shot, I can't say for certain.

[@UncleBBQ]

@@esperthebard I don't feel I would ever use this in a climactic battle to be honest, you're correct with the thrill of rolling for that big fight is simply just too good to let pre determined rolls factor the outcome. I'm also not sure if I would use this on a primarily combat type adventure or campaign. A balancing act of the two could lend itself comfortably as there are definitely pros and cons for each depending on the table and scenario.

[@DangerousPuhson]

Regarding surprise: The initiative roll at the onset of combat doesn't negate the surprise nor does it render it moot - initiative simply denotes who has the fastest reaction to the situation. If your surprise victim rolls higher on the initiative order than the ambusher, they still are still considered ambushed in a surprise attack ("surprise" just implies not being ready for something) - the non-readiness of the victim is reflected in their inability to act before the ambusher. Regardless of initiative, the ambusher will always get to do something first to the victim if they are surprised. The only difference between a victim higher on the initiative order than lower is that when Round 2 starts, they are faster to react to the surprising situation (hence going first before the ambusher's next action). In your example with the tiger, you mention that it doesn't make sense for the female character to roll initiative and have a turn before the tiger because "why would she suddenly stall out and stop walking?". The answer is because even though she is on the Initiative order, it doesn't mean that "something should be happening at this part but isn't because of surprise" - instead it means "if she were involved in a situation right now, she would be reacting faster than everyone else because she's at the top of the order". However, because the tiger hasn't had an action yet, she is considered not in a situation right now, so her being faster at reacting has no impact (hence she can't do anything on that first turn). She's not stopping her walking and waiting to get attacked - she's simply doing what she was doing before combat, and her "turn" that she loses to surprise is just reflective of that. We just don't bother to show that part because technically the actual combat breaks out once the attacker has attacked, not as soon as the initiative order was rolled.

[@esperthebard]

What you described would be better, but alas the effects of surprised are over after the surprised creature's first turn. It can even take reactions starting immediately. It makes no sense particularly when the surprised creature gets a higher initiative than the hidden creature.

[@DangerousPuhson]

@@esperthebard The intent, I believe, is that there are variations of how surprising something is to someone. If you rolled high initiative but were surprised, thematically you can attribute that to "being really quick to react to an unexpected situation"; if you rolled low initiative, you were "slow on the draw". But either way, you are surprised - you cannot do anything in the first round (even reactions), so the ambusher gets a free action whereas you do not. The only time this is not the case is when you roll high enough on your contested Perception to not be surprised (but then, that rule also applied to older editions with surprise rounds too). I think that the crux of the surprise mechanic (be it the 5e surprised condition, or the older variant surprise round) works the same as it did before: the ambusher can act whereas the victim cannot act. If you were to take a normal first round of 5e combat where someone was surprised, and rename it a "surprise round" instead of "Round 1", you'll find it plays out exactly the same way regardless: surprised people skip an action, and ambushers get an extra one comparatively.

[@esperthebard]

@@DangerousPuhson What you described makes sense, and I do wish the 5e official rule was worded more that way. If that was WotC's intent, they should have phrased it so. In the phb, surprised is not an actual condition, the surprised creature merely cannot take actions/reactions or move till after its first TURN (not the first ROUND).

[@Notsogoodguitarguy]

That's a very informative video. However, I think there's a little issue with your examples at the start. The tiger CAN hide from the dwarf, because, if I understand the map you're showing, the tiger is behind cover (I presume the blue thing is like a high rise). Light obscurement DOES NOT provide any basis for stealth, unless otherwise specified (for example, with the Skulker feat). So, in your second example, when the Tiger and the Yeti are in darkness, unless the tiger is behind cover, it can't hide while in the open, even if the dwarf only sees dimly. That's rules as written.

[@ericsmith1508]

The Sabre toothed cat has no feature that allows it to attempt to hide in a "lightly obscured" area. The Skulker feat and the Wood Elf feature Mask of the Wild specifically allow Hide attempts in Lightly Obscured areas, which directly implies that any creatures without such feats and features CANNOT attempt to Hide within a Lightly Obscured area UNLESS their is a physical object to Hide behind just like in an area that isn't obscured at all. To hide without those feats and features you must have something more than just the Light Obscurment to hide behind. SOMETHING must break line of sight for you to Hide!

[@JessieShadowhold]

I can see the angst with the surprised condition, and as DnD is now there isn't really a reason not to use surprise rounds instead, but I do wish that it was treated like the other conditions and there were some abilities to regain surprise mid fight. At that point, I would probably follow the book's version of surprise, and really the only adjustment you HAVE to make is how you perceive the first round. Yes, it's weird to think that the rogue in your example didn't move because they were 'surprised' if you think of each turn happening one after the other, but if you consider the rounds happening all at once with the turn structure being more of an abstraction then actual sequential events, then I think the condition reason isn't a bad one. In that way, the rougue who rolled higher initiative is still suprised and didn't move because they are not prepared to move at the kind of speed that combat requires (maybe if they were actively sprinting a DM could rule otherwise), but they ARE a very quick and reactive person so they still get their reaction if their initiative is faster than the ambusher, and I really like that flavor! The idea that my swashbuckler rogue with a +10 to initiative can still react to an ambush when they were still completely suprised by it feels very flavorful and true to someone who explicitly should have a crazy fast reaction time.

[@elgatochurro]

One player of mine grabbed alert, I then had to deal with the fact that he was able to act and run away from attacks that weren't happening yet because the monster was not a rogue and failed initiative

[@smile-tl9in]

if you want to have light, a bullseye lantern is better than any torch or light spell. it's cheap at 10gp and 1sp for 6h of oil. and a 60ft/60ft cone of bright light/dim light is better than a torch's 20/20. Also, it allows another party member next to you to stay in darkness. You don't have to hold it, you can just hand it around your belt. When you need to quickly put on or put off the light it has a cap. I'd also argue 3/4 cover is enough to use stealth. Though 3/4 cover is rare. I also let PC or NPC roll stealth vs passive perception unless the people who they hide from are actively alerted and searching for them (I.e when sneaking past a guard it is vs passive perception, but if you make noise or during a fight then it's opposed rolls). This is to avoid rolling multiple d20 and thus prevent situation where only 1 enemy needs to roll well to spot a hidden rogue. When PC are planning an ambush I use the group rolls rule. I.e the whole group succeed if 1/2 of them succeed against the highest enemy passive perception. It does make pass without traces very good, pretty much allowing an automatic surprise round....And I'm find with that. A 2nd level spell is worth a surprise round in my mind, and it does make Rangers spell list a lot better. I think those rules are fair and allows pcs and npcs alike to successfully use ambush tactics or sneak as a group rather than leaving people behind or risk the rogue being alone in a tough spot

[@owlthemolfar4690]

Thank you for the video! Another thinv yhat confuses me is special sences: Truesight, Blindsight, Tremorsence etc. Still can't figured out what is the difference. If it is Truesight, why in some situations you can not see? Except the Darkvision is it quite simple.

[@greygale]

It gets pretty complicated, but they all have slightly different interactions. Truesight allows you to see perfectly in darkness and perceive the true nature of things. You can see invisible creatures and can't be fooled by illusions, but things like fog, thick clouds, or walls can still hide things from you, because they're physically impeding your view. Think of it as if you had normal vision, but everything in your view is perfectly lit and visible. Blindsight allows you to see all physical objects perfectly. You wouldn't be fooled by an illusion or an invisible creature, but you would still be fooled by shapechangers because they're physically present. You can see in darkness, and see through fog and thick smoke, but you can't see through walls. Think of it like you're constantly reaching out in a straight line and seeing whatever you touch. Tremorsense allows you to detect where physical objects are making contact with the ground around you. You wouldn't be fooled by an illusion of a person, and would be able to tell if an invisible creature was nearby, but if someone were to conceal themselves with shapechanging or Disguise Self, you wouldn't notice the difference, because they would still be physically standing there. Tremorsense extends through walls and barriers and isn't affected by fog, but if someone can float above the ground or take a form with no mass, then you couldn't see them with tremorsense. Think of it like having a spider's web spread out on the ground around you. Hope that helps!

[@owlthemolfar4690]

@@greygale Thank you very much, king person. I thought it was all about the line of sight with Truesight but was not sure. And, if I understand correctly, the blindsight is like the Bat or Daredevil (from comics)?

[@greygale]

@@owlthemolfar4690 Kind of? You can think of it like Daredevil-vision, where you have perfect awareness of all solid objects around you, but there's no explicit interaction with sound. You can't shut down a dragon's blindsight by casting Silence on it, for example. Some DMs might allow that for creativity, but it's not in the rules. But fundamentally it works the same, like you're detecting movement in the air.

[@owlthemolfar4690]

@@greygale Thank you again.

[@greygale]

@@owlthemolfar4690 No problem! Hope that makes it a bit easier to understand.