2024 Mustang GT: X-Pipe vs H-Pipe on the Dyno! Not The Results We Expected...

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Steeda

Steeda

Күн бұрын

Пікірлер: 204
@ScottO84
@ScottO84 Жыл бұрын
Much easier to hear differences if you put them back to back. Quiet revs: Stock, X, H. Normal revs: Stock, X, H. Track revs: Stock, X, H. Same for flybys and acceleration sounds.
@silwerston
@silwerston Жыл бұрын
Thatt would be better
@ScottO84
@ScottO84 Жыл бұрын
@@silwerston They used this suggested format for their next video of the Mach 1 exhaust upgrade.
@ravenstylea2
@ravenstylea2 Жыл бұрын
Liking the H-Pipe this time around. Didn't expect that.
@chadjones7722
@chadjones7722 Жыл бұрын
I went H on my 2019, I was not prepared for how much louder it was, but with the active exhaust I can turn it up or down for fun or late night starts in the neighborhood
@jordanposvar3616
@jordanposvar3616 Жыл бұрын
I had an H pipe with Outlaws and that shit was nasty on my 16 gt
@jessedreads14L
@jessedreads14L Жыл бұрын
H is nice 💯💯
@mike3963
@mike3963 11 ай бұрын
I'm stuck between the two. I want the down low with a slightly higher pitch. I'll have to find a muffler that can do that to get right in the middle
@victorrippe5845
@victorrippe5845 8 ай бұрын
H pipe sounds way better 💪
@MikeYeary
@MikeYeary Жыл бұрын
I like the sound of H-pipes. That's probably what I'll put on mine
@sebdub12
@sebdub12 Жыл бұрын
I got the H-pipe on my 2021 and switch it up to my 2023 at the beginning of the year. I’m not tired of hearing it. Best first mod to add. It just meets what I want.
@pad076
@pad076 2 ай бұрын
Stock vs H Pipe 0:21 / 3:18 0:54 / 3:43 1:16 / 4:05 1:38 / 4:26 4:39 / 6:26 4:52 / 6:40 5:06 / 6:54 5:20 / 7:07 7:44 / 8:59
@orangewhip115
@orangewhip115 Ай бұрын
Thank you!!!
@marcasswellbmd6922
@marcasswellbmd6922 Жыл бұрын
I liked stock The X piping the best as far as sound goes..
@nic6974
@nic6974 Жыл бұрын
Would love to see and hear the Borla switchfire !!! Dyno too
@lucasblanchard47
@lucasblanchard47 Жыл бұрын
Wow that’s a lot of short timestamps.
@JCTiggs1
@JCTiggs1 Жыл бұрын
In a cost cutting measure by Ford the quad exhaust is no longer standard on the GT and only available with the active exhaust option.
@wusthof641
@wusthof641 Жыл бұрын
What a great vid. They sound so good out of the box. It would kill me not to change anything, but keep it stock for me (I'm 50, and been there dun that)
@chadbrown3258
@chadbrown3258 2 күн бұрын
Love This content! Information an testing is flawless please do this for imports and popular cars
@nickmuschong4483
@nickmuschong4483 5 ай бұрын
I got a Steeda H pipe coming in the mail tomorrow. Gonna put it on my s650 GT PP active exhaust, cant wait to hear it in person.
@gidzey4783
@gidzey4783 4 ай бұрын
How do you like it? I'm about to order it for mine. Although in track mode, and 6 speed manual, my car is pretty loud lol
@matthewsolano248
@matthewsolano248 3 ай бұрын
Also how’s the drone? If there’s any on freeway
@NissanTy
@NissanTy Жыл бұрын
My 2021 10r80 with long tubes and catted lead pipes to a bone stock catback and bone stock cold air made 424whp on 93 octane. Unless you like tech in your car, theres no reason at all to ditch a gen 3 coyote s550 for one of these cars
@Krisk5.0
@Krisk5.0 Жыл бұрын
Have you driven one? I'd take the S650 over the S550 any day.
@smurfeco2.358
@smurfeco2.358 Жыл бұрын
​@Krisk5.0 it's the same crap . All the car is the same . Let it be a couple of years in the market you'll be able to swap parts
@Krisk5.0
@Krisk5.0 Жыл бұрын
@@smurfeco2.358 So you’ve driven an S650 then?
@NissanTy
@NissanTy Жыл бұрын
@Krisk5.0 I've never driven no, but I like the fact my car can be tuned, I can throw on a gen 5 3.0 whipple and be tuned right now for it. I like how mine can't be tracked by ford when the CEL pops on. Not dissing the s650, I think the tech inside and the car itself looks good. And if you have one and love that's all that matters. End of the day we're all mustang enthusiasts after all
@Krisk5.0
@Krisk5.0 Жыл бұрын
@@NissanTy All fair points. I don’t think it will be long before tuning the S650 is possible, though. What caught my attention is you mentioning yours is a 10R80. I know the S650 is supposedly the same 10R80 as the S550, but it drives so much better with the revised tuning. The difference is amazing. I recommend testing out a 10R80 S650, and I think you’ll be surprised. I really liked my S550, but I love everything about the S650 especially now that I have a couple thousand miles on it.
@marcasswellbmd6922
@marcasswellbmd6922 9 ай бұрын
This is the video that made me go with the Xpipe. Just for that little extra up top and down low although I do think the Hipe sounds a little better..
@Hyper77276
@Hyper77276 10 ай бұрын
Picked up my 2024 RTR Spec 2 today and it has the X Pipe. I am happy with the sound to be honest. In the end there is no better sound than the exhaust of any Mustang. It always brings a smile to my face.
@TonyTheTruckGuy
@TonyTheTruckGuy 10 ай бұрын
Great video and timestamps were much appreciated. H pipe is the only way on this one if you ask me. I normally like an X pipe, but the Mustangs have always sounded great with an H pipe. The X pipe in this application literally lost power. Gained 1 ho but lost 3 tq. The H pipe gained on both hp and tq, plus sounds great.
@WilliamSchuver
@WilliamSchuver Жыл бұрын
I would love to here about the drone possibilities with the H or X pipe mod.
@damoose4229
@damoose4229 Жыл бұрын
Need to do stock, X and H back to back in each mode
@coastalparasail
@coastalparasail Жыл бұрын
Proper Suggestion Sir 💪🏼🇺🇸🐎
@Raptor_428
@Raptor_428 Жыл бұрын
Big shout out to Steeda 🎉 the x pipe sounds amazing on the new 24 with active exhaust. I put the settings so mine starts in quite mode thank you Ford for that ability.
@luismancilla650
@luismancilla650 Жыл бұрын
great sound, but i just hate the 10spd, its sounds like almost a cvt imo
@chadjones7722
@chadjones7722 Жыл бұрын
Good video as always, its pretty cool to see the direct comparison like that. I think ill keep my 2019 for some time as I really don't like the rear bumper and tail lights on the 24.
@pdmustgtd1013
@pdmustgtd1013 Жыл бұрын
I'm keeping my 2015 GT too.and S650 really not "new" car just slight changes oh boy. I'm really thinking of ESS supercharger right now on pump gas looking good.
@akrs6398
@akrs6398 Жыл бұрын
The 650 is the best mustang ever made. Make sure you never upgrade lol
@DaleJones-bs6wh
@DaleJones-bs6wh 13 күн бұрын
I don't say I messed up but just ordered the x pipe before watching this video. I seen previous videos on x adding 7 to hp.
@steedaautosports
@steedaautosports 13 күн бұрын
That was true for the S550s, on the S650s you're not going to notice the difference either way, just the sound. Most likely the exhaust system is more power efficient on these cars.
@Westhelockpicker
@Westhelockpicker 7 ай бұрын
I always go with the h-pipe. I love the deep sound
@Properly-Gapped
@Properly-Gapped 9 ай бұрын
Just ordered the H pipe. Can’t wait to get it installed 😊
@Krisk5.0
@Krisk5.0 Жыл бұрын
Great video. I love my Steeda H pipe and all of the suspension upgrades!
@E85_STI
@E85_STI 5 ай бұрын
I have to ask did it void your warranty or on a portion of the exhaust?
@tri3pleagent
@tri3pleagent Жыл бұрын
Got my H pipe installed yesterday. Love it!
@akhild.3583
@akhild.3583 Жыл бұрын
Is there a check engine light?
@tri3pleagent
@tri3pleagent Жыл бұрын
@@akhild.3583 nope.
@akhild.3583
@akhild.3583 Жыл бұрын
@@tri3pleagent one more quick question. Im sensitive to drone. Is there any whatsoever with this
@tri3pleagent
@tri3pleagent Жыл бұрын
@@akhild.3583 none, bro. That's why I've gone with this set up twice.
@michaelcarney6280
@michaelcarney6280 10 ай бұрын
Do you have the active exhaust if so is it still quiet while in the quiet setting, I like some of my neighbours and don't want to wake them going to work?
@RW-zh7kl
@RW-zh7kl 3 ай бұрын
Its kinda strange why, but an H pipe has always sounded better than an x pipe. Where these cars suffer from more weight and less torque, the H pipe actually increases torque, so this would be a no brainer for me
@S650_nightkid
@S650_nightkid 5 ай бұрын
getting that H pipe fs fs , the growl it makes at 4-6k rpms sounds good to me
@dondeezy
@dondeezy Жыл бұрын
Definitely x pipe. The coyote wants to scream
@JCTiggs1
@JCTiggs1 Жыл бұрын
Whats with the 2024 GT low torque numbers vs 2021?
@arizonalifestylechannel2186
@arizonalifestylechannel2186 Жыл бұрын
Right!!!!
@ThorGPA
@ThorGPA Жыл бұрын
Torque management is different. It's more aggressive
@gbass7328
@gbass7328 Жыл бұрын
I would love to see results with no cross over. Straight dual exhaust replacement for resonator.
@porkrind
@porkrind Жыл бұрын
Not seen it on a recent mustang, but in general that configuration sounds much worse on a V8. There is some science to how a V8 fires that explains it, but I don't remember exactly why.
@14_yote5_oh5
@14_yote5_oh5 Жыл бұрын
H on cam sounds better
@dlasti
@dlasti Жыл бұрын
Should've included a "tru-dual" set-up...no X, no H, with and without mufflers.
@LilBando
@LilBando 9 ай бұрын
Agreed
@zeek3177
@zeek3177 14 күн бұрын
why doesn't a company opt for an exhaust that has both an h and x, would it give the best of both worlds? maybe put the x before the h and vice versa, just an idea, something to consider exhaust companies.
@chrissanchez9218
@chrissanchez9218 Жыл бұрын
5.0 comes stock with H pipe that’s why it sounds good from factory but it’s a resonated H pipe
@738drvr
@738drvr Ай бұрын
Finally I can leave the exhaust alone other than long tubes. The factory system is that good. Thank you Ford.
@sancho1512
@sancho1512 Жыл бұрын
Is that metallic clicking sound at 2:45, 2:49, 4:05 , as the RPM’s drop normal? Is it just the gasses?
@Sky-fb4rx
@Sky-fb4rx Жыл бұрын
Rev limiter
@puzo-we3hp
@puzo-we3hp Жыл бұрын
I got my 2019 Active Exhaust with Steeda H pipe ❤
@JCTiggs1
@JCTiggs1 3 ай бұрын
Even though peak gains are minimal for the S650 with an H/X-pipe, judging by the dyno graph there's still about a +10 hp+trq gain throughout the curve between 2500 rpm to 3500 rpm. Plus you shave off 10 lbs with the resonator delete. 😊
@johngabucci
@johngabucci Жыл бұрын
I like the deep throat sound😂
@1The1Shadow1
@1The1Shadow1 Жыл бұрын
If you want numbers install the X or H pipe and delete the cats and also install down pipes.
@TheAutoRanch
@TheAutoRanch Жыл бұрын
Great video!! Thank you for all the comparisons.
@6ixspeedstang186
@6ixspeedstang186 Жыл бұрын
Should have made the deck lid black. The one color thing is kind of throwing me off.
@afordnissan2
@afordnissan2 Жыл бұрын
revs on quite mode is not necessary
@tythegreatttg
@tythegreatttg Жыл бұрын
Right
@RICARD01
@RICARD01 Жыл бұрын
*QUITE MODE* *SPEECH 1OO*
@pineir
@pineir 7 ай бұрын
can i just put 2 straight pipes instead of x or h?
@RAFA-yu3ug
@RAFA-yu3ug 19 күн бұрын
Can yall make some affordable headers thank you
@Joe4USMC
@Joe4USMC 8 ай бұрын
Awesome video, guys!! Thank you!!! I love the sound of the H-pipe and I feel better knowing that's it's close to the X-pipe in performance, but I'll be losing a little high-end horsepower, but gaining low end torque.
@GeneralEOD
@GeneralEOD 6 ай бұрын
Any observations on drone sound?
@TinNguyen-rx3mf
@TinNguyen-rx3mf Жыл бұрын
H sounds much cleaner. H pipe all day.
@cecilotto504
@cecilotto504 Жыл бұрын
X pipe for my gen 2 , 5.0 because it's better
@SICMADE7
@SICMADE7 Жыл бұрын
Coming from a Musician: - X if you want higher pitched revs - H is you want deep and balls
@joandefrank
@joandefrank Жыл бұрын
I love the H pipe!!
@mid-southsoftwashllc
@mid-southsoftwashllc 7 ай бұрын
I have ALWAYS been a X-Pipe guy on my 4 Stangs but o would definitely go H on the 24+
@chriswise1232
@chriswise1232 Жыл бұрын
Same test with long tubes please.
@gaivoron
@gaivoron 9 ай бұрын
Maybe deleted the charcoal intake filters will result in some measuarsble difference.
@Oddball5.0
@Oddball5.0 5 ай бұрын
I was lucky that my 2023 seems to have come without it.
@gaivoron
@gaivoron 5 ай бұрын
@@Oddball5.0 because it's last gen mustang.
@Oddball5.0
@Oddball5.0 5 ай бұрын
@@gaivoron No, they started adding them in 2022. All 2022 and 2023 5.0s are supposed to have them.
@gaivoron
@gaivoron 5 ай бұрын
@@Oddball5.0 interesting, maybe someone else took it out. Unless you the original owner, the. Ford forgot to put one in. Lol
@Oddball5.0
@Oddball5.0 5 ай бұрын
@@gaivoron Yeah it’s weird. I’m the original owner, ordered from the factory. There’s lots of videos about how to remove them from 22s and 23s, but mine just doesn’t have one.
@JCTiggs1
@JCTiggs1 3 ай бұрын
116 db on that h-pipe wot flyby is pretty crazy 😂
@fishneck7366
@fishneck7366 Жыл бұрын
The toque plateau on those graphs tho😮
@tmwtpbrent14
@tmwtpbrent14 9 ай бұрын
Gotta go mid-muffler, if possible, to get the best sound.
@victorrippe5845
@victorrippe5845 8 ай бұрын
H pipe sounds amazing on these s650 and s550
@willw6363
@willw6363 Жыл бұрын
Any comment on the decibel levels between x and h pipe? I'm wondering if the X pipe is still louder
@steedaautosports
@steedaautosports Жыл бұрын
For the S650s, the decibel meter may exaggerate the difference, but in person, the H-pipe still sounds a bit louder. Especially at wide-open throttle.
@muneshmaraj6130
@muneshmaraj6130 11 ай бұрын
How is the highway drone with the H pipe?
@E85_STI
@E85_STI 5 ай бұрын
Exactly the video I was looking for so I just got mine but I want an H pipe from you guys I was going for the x but the H sounds good. Do you guys do Military discounts?
@steedaautosports
@steedaautosports 5 ай бұрын
We do! Email sales@steeda.com a copy of your Military ID and we'll send a discount code you can use online or if you'd prefer to order over the phone we can do that too!
@E85_STI
@E85_STI 5 ай бұрын
@@steedaautosportsI ordered the H pipe form you guys a few days ago and I left the protection package on there for shipping purposes so hopefully those that see this it’s cheap insurance in cases anything happens to your order so definitely worth the peace of mind.
@evoviiiyou831
@evoviiiyou831 Жыл бұрын
H is the meanest sounding but wow stock was done right. Not much to gain here.
@sunburn8640
@sunburn8640 Жыл бұрын
The Active Exhaust starting on the 2018 S550 was the start of something really special. Mustangs have always been the best sounding V8 not named Ferrari which sounds more exotic but not necessarily better. Going back to my 88’ Fox with Flowmaster and an H Pipe , you could always tell when a Mustang was coming down the road. From 18’ through now, the active exhaust is such a phenomenal sounding factory exhaust. It is diff than the non active and not sound but tone. I know this because I had a 19 with active and I currently had a 21 without active and the 19’ sounded better. Not louder, better. Louder too bu the tone is just more refined and not as tinney or rattley. The H Pipe would be my pick. It seems to keep the great tone i mentioned of the active exhaust and just enhances it. The X pipe is too raspy and not as refined IMO. It’s H Pipe all day for me and it’s really not even close
@SandeepSingh-js1zt
@SandeepSingh-js1zt Жыл бұрын
Same thing for the dark Horse?
@steedaautosports
@steedaautosports Жыл бұрын
We haven't done this test on a Dark Horse, but we did install an H-Pipe on one if you want to hear it compared to stock -> kzbin.info/www/bejne/iZ3FiKJmq9p7otE
@310Cowboys
@310Cowboys 10 күн бұрын
H Pipe FTW. Unless it uses Borla Switchfire X Pipe and Borla S-Type or ATAK.
@thomascarpenter5536
@thomascarpenter5536 Жыл бұрын
Hopefully you get to do this with a non AE car to see if the results are different. I would have expected some gains since the resonator looks the same as the S550 and the AE removes some resistance (aka makes more power). Does this now fall under ricer mods since there are no gains?
@S650Ryan
@S650Ryan 9 ай бұрын
Will this void warranty on the active exhaust?
@gogetit1431
@gogetit1431 8 ай бұрын
No
@millz1012
@millz1012 Жыл бұрын
H pipe sounds good x a little too raspy for my liking
@nickkostakis9600
@nickkostakis9600 6 ай бұрын
Great show as always brilliant I still think the X pipe sounds better thank you so much for very informative show thank you from Sydney Australia 😊
@MCoupeMike
@MCoupeMike Жыл бұрын
I think my vote is H pipe
@msk3905
@msk3905 5 ай бұрын
Never crazy over the x raspy back firing sound so H for me
@liquidsmokemustang1537
@liquidsmokemustang1537 Жыл бұрын
The new s650 is louder stock because Ford made the resonator smaller.
@gordydexter2615
@gordydexter2615 Жыл бұрын
Hi Chris!!! Excellent video!!! Who made the H-pipe in this video? I have feedback from other Mustang owners who claim that the single H-pipe is a deeper sound compared to the Corsa Double H-pipe. Your Thoughts????? Cheers‼️👍💪😎🇺🇸✝️
@MikeYeary
@MikeYeary Жыл бұрын
If you watch the whole video, he has them set up on a table in front of him. They're made by Steeda.
@uptobatentertainment
@uptobatentertainment Жыл бұрын
X pipe. I’m bias tho cuz that’s what’s on my s550
@ironmikelaw
@ironmikelaw 11 ай бұрын
Look at the torque curve..! You picked up 20 pounds of torque at 3k rpm! Thats a win
@Steelernation43
@Steelernation43 10 ай бұрын
on the h-pipes or x-pipes?
@ironmikelaw
@ironmikelaw 10 ай бұрын
H pipe
@a408ridah
@a408ridah Жыл бұрын
Great video Ty 👍
@LilBando
@LilBando 9 ай бұрын
H pipe has always been better imo deeper tone
@The_Hi_Life
@The_Hi_Life Жыл бұрын
I’d actually just leave it stock. Not enough difference in sound or performance to justify.
@ThorGPA
@ThorGPA Жыл бұрын
Who da thunk just changing a pipe doesn't make much difference. It's almost like you need to change the whole exhaust to make it worthwhile 🤔
@acdcdave1387
@acdcdave1387 8 ай бұрын
KZbin videos don't do it justice, the sound difference is massive in person, even more so inside the car. With that said, there's nothing wrong with stock, it's a great sounding car.
@DomSki_
@DomSki_ Жыл бұрын
just got the 24' mustang GT and tbh its hard to decide which pipe to buy the X or H pipe lol
@LoneStarRay
@LoneStarRay 4 ай бұрын
Did you get one?
@coastalparasail
@coastalparasail Жыл бұрын
🇺🇸💪🏼🐎 I don’t have an S650 but I do have a Mach 1 with a resonator delete and a Corsa double H pipe . I gotta say it’s perfect , I would like to add long tubes, and a tune, one day, but for now it’s plenty loud enough, especially at WOT
@BigredGT-pm5lm
@BigredGT-pm5lm Жыл бұрын
A shame they do not use slip over connections in the rear with clamps vs. the sleeve type clamp Steeda uses. For this reason I’m going with Roush 304 SS h pipe
@TheCdM1981
@TheCdM1981 Жыл бұрын
I love the way steeda just continues to be disappointed with these new mustangs. The power is so disappointing.
@ShadowVR30
@ShadowVR30 Жыл бұрын
I am so confused at how its rated at 486 crank HP but on dynos they are 390whp~400whp. They really lose nearly 90hp through the transmission?
@TheCdM1981
@TheCdM1981 Жыл бұрын
@@ShadowVR30 well the answer to that is if it’s rated for that it’s not properly rated if the dyno is correct.
@adrianbrown2957
@adrianbrown2957 Жыл бұрын
They basically need mods, because I don’t think mines that fast, but I’ll be doing tune, and full exhaust in stead.
@alexfilatov1388
@alexfilatov1388 Жыл бұрын
Actually X or H pipes not big difference with stock active exhaust :)
@mrmike1183
@mrmike1183 Жыл бұрын
This gen sounds amazing with an H pipe but....but.....the looks just aren't for me. Hopefully the refresh a few years from now will be more of my style.
@Backend_Goat
@Backend_Goat Жыл бұрын
This is the last 5.0 platform Ford will be taking on from what I've heard. Better learn to like it lol
@mrmike1183
@mrmike1183 Жыл бұрын
@@Backend_Goat nah ill just buy an S197 and call it a day
@Backend_Goat
@Backend_Goat Жыл бұрын
@mrmike1183 love that platform as well. Just can't beat the factory warrantied 805hp Whipple package!
@mrmike1183
@mrmike1183 Жыл бұрын
@@Backend_Goat how much does that cost?
@jeremiebohn6520
@jeremiebohn6520 Жыл бұрын
I have gen 3 with x pipe it’s raspy
@imabigboi9586
@imabigboi9586 Жыл бұрын
I got a straight pipe on mine
@clifford_2zero7
@clifford_2zero7 4 ай бұрын
🚔 👮‍♂️ 🚨 @5:57 😂😂
@FastRat24
@FastRat24 Жыл бұрын
Should do these tests on a manual. Honestly think stock sounds the best
@mikes1292
@mikes1292 Жыл бұрын
H pipe with a cupple magnaflow mufflers
@kennethanderson8601
@kennethanderson8601 6 ай бұрын
X-pipe ❤
@gunsandgranola7262
@gunsandgranola7262 4 ай бұрын
Like the honesty. Thanks for that. So, I’ll keep it stock and under warranty.
@jonyfrommars
@jonyfrommars 5 күн бұрын
You can install the Ford Performance X Pipe and keep Warranty.......
@justinjess7776
@justinjess7776 Жыл бұрын
H Pipe button here------>
@350zspeedy
@350zspeedy 5 ай бұрын
one pipe is the best
@SirJamesTND
@SirJamesTND 9 ай бұрын
Everyone liking the h pipe and me mostly hearing x pipes baffles me.
@rxibot
@rxibot Жыл бұрын
X can't wait!!!
@hardknocc922
@hardknocc922 Жыл бұрын
H pipe for the win!
@davidforsman5973
@davidforsman5973 Жыл бұрын
H pie sounds Best
@isaacbrown2703
@isaacbrown2703 Жыл бұрын
Love the look of the new 24’s and I love that Ford further refined the s550. These seem decent out of the box. I suppose at a median price of 54k they should be
@07slowbalt
@07slowbalt Жыл бұрын
Nah they are slower than the s550, added weight, s650gt is a dog now. Then to top it off the only one worth buying is the darkhorse and its 80k lol.
@2024gtbuild
@2024gtbuild 11 ай бұрын
@@07slowbaltonly way they get close to beating the 24 gt 10 speed is if they have a good tune and a upgraded transmission other than that stock beats it everyday buddy just say your broke and you own the older one dude 🤣
@07slowbalt
@07slowbalt 11 ай бұрын
@@2024gtbuild clearly you havent seen any videos stock vs stock. The dark horse barely is any faster and the base gt has already shown slower times than the previous s550. It has nothing to do with being broke, just factual. I dont even own a mustang but if i did id buy an s550 thats actually tuneable and alot more performance capable.
@samnwo1525
@samnwo1525 Жыл бұрын
The x pipe is too tinny…H pipe is glorious on both variants
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