What a breath of fresh air! Finally someone who knows what he is talking about and easy to follow. I’ve looked for this man for a lifetime. I’m now 71; thanks for educating me.
@CometsArtDrawing3 жыл бұрын
Excellent Drawing, I also need your support. Thank You!
@montygemma7 ай бұрын
I was like you , drawing, painting for ages, five years at art school and never was I introduced to one of these. Now I've got one I don't go anywhere without it. You can measure sight size, scale up, get angles if you hold one part up straight and move the other, or just use it as a measuring stick, and the holes in it are really helpful there sometimes. Brilliant piece of kit.
@StefanBaumann7 ай бұрын
thanks for sharing
@DriftingDraftsman5 ай бұрын
Woah I never thought of getting angles with that. Thanks!
@sunriseboy4837 Жыл бұрын
Plenty of people 'paint'; few can draw. Thanks Stefan, this was wonderful.
@urbanchili4 жыл бұрын
So nice to watch a video by someone who actually know what they are doing. One curse of the internet is, to many people offers art classes and they don't know how to teach. All they do is draw/paint a pictures and say things like "don't over think it", "just go with the flow", "Use your own choice of colours". That is not teaching. If people can't explain every step of the process, they shouldn't be teaching.
@ooXChrissieXoo4 жыл бұрын
I think that's just people as a whole, when they have too much of something, they want the exact opposite. I can just imagine, like he said this tool is not even new, and when they used to use too much of it, group of these internet art teacher type of people went, oh why bother, just relax and draw. Then all of a sudden, humanity need to relearn how to draw. I teach art in a high-school, and I would explain to them, look at proportions, how things are related to each others. Don't buy premix paints, I explained temperature, mixing the perfect purple, all the fun stuff. Kids continued to bring tube paints instead of mixing, so I stopped them from bringing their own, and gave them my own paint. Next thing is the school wants me to relax, because "I was limiting the students' creativity, because I don't let them use colors". So I did, like why do I want to argue for more work and waste my own paint, when school wants this class to be in their exact words "relax, creative and fun." Next thing is oh all of a sudden when admin did the annual evaluation, and they see kids painting whatever they want; they just decided I don't teach the technique, and I was told there's a reason school hires a teacher. I was like BRUH! You betrayed me!
@penelope-oe2vr4 жыл бұрын
You're so right, its basically watching them do it well, without actually explaining WHY or HOW they got to that point, and just saying generic things, not actual knowledge. They should just be quiet, put on music and let us watch them draw. This man is actually teaching HOW , I've learned more from him, and he didn't actually draw much of anything. He's a REAL teacher!
@thenamlesssubscriber54844 жыл бұрын
Well said
@urbanchili4 жыл бұрын
@@ooXChrissieXoo As a kid, when I had art classes we used rather good materials and we didn't even know it. Today I cringe when I think about how much money went down the drain, because of that. Only like 3 out of maybe 40 ever made a living in art and we would probably had done it without expensive materials, because we all do in digital art.
@urbanchili4 жыл бұрын
@@penelope-oe2vr The problem with many of those online classes is; they cost money and some cost a lot. Someone get a lot of followers on youtube and the followers get starstruck and the youtubers can sell anything to them. Even classes where, all the maybe learn, is to make a copy of what the "teacher" is making during "class".
@kathleenhutter44123 жыл бұрын
Dividers are actually very useful! Oddly enough I first learned of them fom my husband who's a woodworker. He learned it from his father. You can use them in stead of measuring, and especially when things repeat. They excel at "recording" or measuring proportions. Such a simple and effective tool!
@hberbac8383 жыл бұрын
I remember my uncle, a cabinet maker, using something like this. I never thought of it for drawing...duh on me. I just ordered one and am really looking forward to using it. I must watch more of this man's videos. Not into oil painting as it is far too costly for me, but do like other mediums. Just drawing can be fun, too.
@thecentralscrutinizerr4 жыл бұрын
The Moral of the Video is "Never let school interfere with your education."
@hwt-ka-pth4 жыл бұрын
Nice
@Pawgee6 жыл бұрын
Stefan I took a beginning class in 1969 at age of 19 now at age of 67 I have had the most important class I ever took...I thank you so very much...
@HeliPadUSA5 жыл бұрын
So glad I can find teachers like you after the ones I had before. I could listen to you all day. So much stuff in each video and not a pretentious teacher. Wish I knew this 44 years ago.
@vegasrenie4 жыл бұрын
Heli PadUSA - Totally agree!
@ellesnyder9426 жыл бұрын
I bought a proportional divider after seeing this the first time and used it on a portrait I wasn't happy with after reworking it a few times. I tried this gizmo on my painting and was able to correct the issues I was having with it. Thanks!
@celiastratton61675 жыл бұрын
I have been so frustrated on here looking for avideo of how to draw the portions of the human body. I cannot believe the people on here that do not explain anything at all in the right way in order for a beginner to understand...I am absolutely frustrated....until I got to your video...you have a calming voice and you seem like a person who is happy and a good teacher thank you so much for helping me finally I found someone who knows what they are doing!!! I've been a arriest my entire life but have not drawn anything in years...I'm drawing the comic character "Lobo" for my boyfriend and it's bring back memories of how stressfully it is to be an artist at times...and how much focusyou have to put in on a piece of work. Thanks again for your video!!
@daytonagreg8765 Жыл бұрын
Now THIS is real advanced education. I have a B.S. in Computer Science and I’ve taken excellent college courses & ridiculous college courses. This is the real deal, a professional sharing years of experience. Thank you sir!
@Nancymarie4105 жыл бұрын
I have learned more from you in the few videos I watched then any class I have taken, I wanted to learn the basics of oil painting and took a class through the college, the teacher told us what products to use then said find a picture you want to do and just do that. That was as far as she got, she just sat in the front of the room and did nothing else but hand out printed paper of basic theory that I was taught in kindergarten. I just want to thank you for wonderful lessons.
@MontegueWizard7 жыл бұрын
I learned what a proportional divider was about 1980. I was a draftsman (woman) for my dad, who was a geologist. That was back in.the day when drafting was done with pen and ink, lettering guides, flexible curves, templates, drafting tape, etc. It was a very nice architectural type divider, which did on occasion draw a little blood, but I've had worse paper cuts! I used it working as a draftsman and while I was going to art school. I loved it and it was great for more than just drawing. It disappeared after he retired, and so has the art of drafting. I wonder if most CAD-ers today would know what a swing arm and a lettering guide was.
@Geostationary0rbit2 жыл бұрын
That’s so cool, I wish I had that background! Time to find out what a swing arm is!
@PiaBros5 жыл бұрын
Just started painting/drawing four years ago at 72 years of age and got myself one of these but have not been using it much because felt it was kind of like cheating. You have made sense of it all and and in such an easy way. Many thanks.
@Mmothership686 жыл бұрын
The difference between the true masters and us mere mortals is they became self sufficient in their techniques. Always rely on yourself,ask questions of yourself, be honest and never be afraid to push your boundaries. Tools help,absolutely. But we already have that tool locked away in our brains. Learn to access it. Then you'll never be without. Love the video.
@safeschoolsofus4 жыл бұрын
"Never let school interfere with your education." Great tip !!
@ronschlorff70895 жыл бұрын
A true "badge of honor" to be sure to be "thrown out of art school", particularly the ones you mentioned early on here, in the previous few decades, and today as well. Good for you Stefan!! Really good stuff on your video's subject here too, thanks!!
@corakiart6 жыл бұрын
I love to hear all that an artist says. Experience is the greatest teacher and I love the side story.
@IdowuIbrahim5 жыл бұрын
I should get you a gold watch... One of your viewers posted a link to your page on the oil color facebook page. I studied art up till the secondary school level and i now practice as a lawyer. I have kept my passion alive by painting for over a decade and a half and i can confirm that most of the things you teach i happen to stumble upon by happenchance. I have to admit that my initial reaction after seeing three of your videos was to go home, throw all my materials away and set all my works ablaze. However, if there is something i have learnt from the few videos i have seen, it is the fact that the 12 important factors required for a great painting should be deliberately factored into the work and not something that comes of by chance. Definitely downloading the free ebook. Thank you soooooooooo much.
@sandracointreau39894 жыл бұрын
Very helpful indeed. I am looking forward after 50 years of drawing and painting to finally minimizing the erasing I have to do under my watercolor portraits. Yaay!!
@gmoore61663 жыл бұрын
I’ve used proportional dividers for 40 plus years in drawings and there is a difference in the cheap plastic and the nice drafting dividers, the nice drafting dividers are more refined and you can get far more portions rather than the holes in the plastic. In a pinch you can even make your own dividers from wood. Great class on the use of dividers which are an important tool in an artist tool palette:)
@vivianeb904 жыл бұрын
Wow, I'm blown away. Thank you, that is amazing.
@zoutewandАй бұрын
Im a woodworker and people always forget how fundamental the divider is. If you use it well, you can use it to create straight lines, straight edges, a measurement system, builders levels, surveying tools. And all you need to create those things? A piece of string, a nail and a pencil. Dividers are so deeply linked with the progress of humankind. Amazing tools.
@jose.jessy.justin5 жыл бұрын
Nobody is going to comment on the smooth transitions in this video. P.S - Thank you for sharing your knowledge with us. Much appreciated. Love from India.
@scattrr5 жыл бұрын
They're perfect, the timing & the fade!
@patriciaatkinson24356 жыл бұрын
Thank you. You have reminded me that line is beautiful but mass is truth. Returning to "art stuff" after 25 years!
@cathyd52775 жыл бұрын
Oh!! I just saw you in utube and I'm so soo happy!! I watched you paint and explain things on TV ... then you weren't on TV anymore....Just wanted to tell you I love I can see you work and you telling/explain again.....happy happy!
@RoosterPootPottery6 жыл бұрын
Thank you for this video. Art classes 40 yrs ago never taught me how to use this. Now that I am back to art, I have to retract myself!!!!
@linearchitect4 жыл бұрын
Even art teacher cannot make a straight line. Thank you for sharing.
@teresafuller39125 жыл бұрын
I learned a lot from my drawing professor, Karen Adrienne, at UMA, in Maine. I was amazed at my progression just in the short span of one college class. We had opportunity to draw nudes, both male and female. I was intimidated at first, but she made it very approachable. A good teacher is priceless
@teresafuller39125 жыл бұрын
I'm glad to have discovered this. I bought myself one of these things from Amazon last summer n wasn't sure if it was really useful. Thanx for the info :)
@PPMOCRG5 жыл бұрын
You’re not kidding about the beginning drawing class! I took one in high school and that was the last art class that I ever took. I was more advanced but they made me start at the beginning. 🤦🏻♀️
@ryanfuxa67385 жыл бұрын
I too went to Academy of Art...for 3 years. After taking Analysis of Form twice, they immediately placed me in Perspective and wouldn't let me take any simpler classes until passing it. After 3 tries, I had to give up since it was taking up all my money. They taught me nothing and I've never heard of this tool until now. Thank you for uploading this video.
@StefanBaumann5 жыл бұрын
Your so welcome
@markbonham34775 жыл бұрын
Very interesting and a I've been drawing for over 60 years and have never seen or heard about this tool. Thanks
@bogus_not_me5 жыл бұрын
Amazing! After all these years (I'm 76) I find someone who teaches me something important in one brief video. Thank you for sharing.
@kamaljeetchugh5 жыл бұрын
There are others too around your age. Cheers.
@otter19444 жыл бұрын
75 here and learning how to draw. I watched KZbin tutorials before putting pen to paper. This tool is one of the first tools I purchased but Starting today, I will use it. At my age, I will use all tools that are helpful to speed up my learning curve. I am using Audubon’s watercolor plates used in “Birds of America” book for reference of color and for one resource of accuracy for shape and proportion. Your lesson is probably the most important tools I shall have until my brain-to-hand skills are honed. I have collected many drawings of birds. Some do not seem to relate the photos in my collections at all. I believe I will be much happier with my results now. Thank you for gifting us.
@maxis2k6 жыл бұрын
My goodness, I've spent months using a ruler and drawing boxes to try and get accurate proportions. And now I learn of a device that does it on the fly. I feel both stupid and ecstatic at the same time.
@lauritadominick61634 жыл бұрын
You can only go as far as you were taught... I think the teachers were stupid not you
@singalong27583 жыл бұрын
Me too, i am the kind of artist who wants accurate proportions that takes an effort but still find a way for easier techniques coz im lazy😂
@SchoonerMistress6 жыл бұрын
So happy I found your video. Even more thrilled to realize, as sailors, I already own one. Cannot wait to pull it out of our overboard bag and have a go at it. Sailing ships and perspective can be so difficult. Especially for someone so new to drawing. Thank you.
@isisveiled64207 жыл бұрын
I made myself a couple of pd's, it's quite easy and very helpful. What is great is that you can use them to transfer angles too, you just align the one part of it to the center line and open the other to the angle you need to measure. Then you use the same of the bigger opening to transfer it to canvas.
@miklosnemeth8566 Жыл бұрын
So, do use two PDs to measure the angle?
@NathanielJamesProd4 жыл бұрын
Really great advice. I ended up getting a really nice metal proportional divider and I have to say, it has made quite a difference. I've been using it for a couple of months now and I can see myself already being able to do better without it. It does train your eye, and that's one of the top reasons I wanted to try it out! Thanks for the video!
@juliagustin19665 жыл бұрын
I've never seen this before--THANK YOU!
@LePetitChatNoir794 жыл бұрын
I ordered one of these after I saw this video and it has drastically helped my proportions. Thank you so much for this video.
@jelketa7 жыл бұрын
This a great learning class, thank you Stefan for sharing.
@StefanBaumann7 жыл бұрын
Your welcome
@realartdrum5 жыл бұрын
I SOOOoooo Appreciate this Teacher and Artist! This info is very important!!!! Thank you sir!!!!!
@ChiRhoStudio7 жыл бұрын
That's neat! I learned about the proportional divider when I was learning clay and pottery! We use those very, very often! Thank you for the video! Thank you for sharing your knowledge and your skills with us all who are not able to take your classes in person! God Bless!
@StefanBaumann7 жыл бұрын
Thanks
@olijordan12246 жыл бұрын
Thank you so much for introducing this tool to the world and me. What an essential thing to have. Thank you again!!! Your art, videos, waistcoat and education is awesome! 👊
@fatebyaccident5 жыл бұрын
This is a Godsend! Thank you so much for posting this.
@salamsweiss97363 жыл бұрын
You’re an awesome teacher! Your lectures are always to the point and informative. Love you
@joyepittura7 жыл бұрын
It's great for landscape painting in plein air for structures....to get the correct proportions to fit the size of canvas....Urban scapes...or if using a photo of say a barn...and you want to get the correct proportions again ...of that barn in the photo to fit the size canvas...and of course achieving the correct measurements to render the structure. I've seen many painting where artists just free hand the structure and they are not straight...thus when the viewer looks at it....it bothers the eye...thanks for This demo....there is another porpotional round device where you point to the measurement sizes and it gives you the correct size of canvas and dimensional aspects of the subject .. ...thanks Stefan...you always share topics of great importance... Those ladies are lucky to be in your class....still haven't found you in China town or on the streets of SF...one day I hope to...
@MrSketch03286 жыл бұрын
Boom! Mind blown...thank you brother for sharing.
@StefanBaumann6 жыл бұрын
your welcome
@marionwood39867 жыл бұрын
If only I had seen this years ago would have saved me so much trouble. Thank you for sharing this, I bought one immediately, can't wait for it to arrive.
@gary74664 жыл бұрын
I got one of those proportional dividers and had a go with it. You demonstration helps to clear up a few things, and I feel you did a great job explaining howto use this simple valuable took. Thanks do much, Stephan!
@donnasmith48797 жыл бұрын
I bought one of these yearssss ago and never knew how to use it!!! Oh Stefan I love u so much!!! Muahhhhh (big ol kiss on your cheek)
@StefanBaumann7 жыл бұрын
xoxoxox
@trotterhorsewatsonjr.66685 жыл бұрын
Where have U been all my life. Wish U were around when i was young. I thought the same thing about my art teachers, which made me give up art! Thank you!
@NightOwl117 жыл бұрын
I LOVE my pd! 💕 I've always been good at drawing but this saves time and frustration.
@selinamularz91945 жыл бұрын
I can't believe I'm just now learning about this after 30 years drawing. Thanks!
@ronschlorff70895 жыл бұрын
When I did a lot of wildlife paintings about 30 years ago I used a straight architects divider a lot, to work out proportions of this to that and all that, but not a proportional divider for the drawing. I mostly used the grid method from my photos at wild animal parks and zoos, and some of my field drawings if they were good enough. Got that from books. I do plein air landscapes, here in AZ now, but I can see their uses there too after seeing this video!!
@ketoking94356 жыл бұрын
I watched this after buying dividers as used them close to 40 years ago at school for technical drawing,,I'm looking to make scale car models working from 1/76 scale to about 3 times larger close to 1/24 scale,,,these tools are great,,,, Big Thanx to Stephan for a great tutorial,,
@andresaroba19677 жыл бұрын
Thanks for sharing all this, Stefan! good to find you!
@StefanBaumann7 жыл бұрын
Your Welcome
@ccc-yp8ot4 жыл бұрын
Your tips in this and your other videos have been so inspirational and valuable. Thank you so very much for sharing. Sending Blessing and positivity your way..
@influentialolive4 жыл бұрын
Thank you! I took "high school art", it ALMOST DESTROYED my Art. Today. I art everywhere- except life forms... But, I'm actually looking into figure drawings.. lol
@teentb20758 ай бұрын
Thank you Stefan, a proportional divider is going into my painting toolbox.! 🎨🖌
@Via_Von6 жыл бұрын
I really enjoyed this and hauled out my AccuSee that had been collecting dust because of my lack of knowledge. Thank you for the info and fun even years after the fact. 👏🏻❣️
@shirleyandrews11525 жыл бұрын
Great info.! Thank you. Have enjoyed your programs on PBS
@fatemehaghaei19543 жыл бұрын
Thank you sooo much for this teaching !! I had big problems with prospective on painting and now I found a solution for this thanks to you 🌱❤
@rmbrazz4 жыл бұрын
Wow, I never learned this in art class! Thank you!
@igorm98514 жыл бұрын
OH this changes everything ! I am throwing out the art school technique i learned for proportions and using what you suggested. Thank you so much!
@automatan4 жыл бұрын
I wish I would have had him as a teacher back in the 70s but, he was a student as I was. I did not follow thru with my dream. He did and that's why he's so enthusiastic and I'm...not so much. Great video; I'll keep coming back now that I've discovered the teacher I should have had.
@lauritadominick61634 жыл бұрын
Thank you... that was the simplest... most comprehensive explanation I have heard so far... and I didn’t fall asleep
@BAwesomeDesign5 жыл бұрын
I find that by moving my arm and shoulder faster that my eye moves faster too, but also it becomes more accurate. Blocking in the proportions goes pretty fast when doing life drawing, but not establishing any line (darkening any line) before all the big shapes are in is key. If I try to slow down and concentrate, my field of vision tends to narrow. These dividers might be something to look into; but I find that simply by moving faster my brain works faster and I see a lot more information.... and the proportions tend to be placed down fairly accurately. I end up seeing the whole (gestalt) over the details... and it stands to reason. If the eye moves faster, detail is subsumed automatically.
@melvan34566 жыл бұрын
Very glad to hear this man practical ideas to sell art.
@738polarbear4 жыл бұрын
I never knew how to use them . very interesting to get the correct relative perspective .
@williansouza62815 жыл бұрын
I can see this helping a lot on free drawings too. Easy to measure heads, and stuff like that. Gona get one
@deidra76126 жыл бұрын
Thank you very much for this explanation and video! I have wondered for years what that tool was for!! 💝💝💝xxx
@roninoneil5466 жыл бұрын
Wow this guy is a fantastic teacher thank you.
@koteto9995 жыл бұрын
So awesome! Thank you so much for the valuable information! I am just trying to learn how to draw portraits from life and was especially looking for how to take proper measurements and now I'm super excited and happy to try this tool!!! Again a BIG THANK YOU!!
@dmoher85664 жыл бұрын
Wooooooow!!! Thanks. I knew about the proportional divider but I didn't know what it was called. I've used a ruler, my mail envelop, folded paper etc now this. Heeeeeere I come Ebay. Can't wait to use it.
@manuelgutierrez89977 жыл бұрын
Thanks Stefan I do have a proportional divider at home and did not what it was for.
@julieharris476 жыл бұрын
I have had one of these in a drawer for years and didn’t know how to use it, so thank you for your video
@seahorse56896 жыл бұрын
Absolutely awesome class! Thank you!
@andrewmoon18986 жыл бұрын
Never heard of this, will get one now though. Thank you.
@hannahgarner14485 жыл бұрын
Mind blown and i spent 1 hour at Michael's searching for this tool, i cant wait to order💚💚💚💶💷💴☕☕☕😱 thank you!
@otter19444 жыл бұрын
Hannah Garner: Hobby Lobby in Kansas City has these.
@LynnePriceStudio4 жыл бұрын
What a great video. Thanks, Stefan. I just received a golden ratio divider in the mail today. Just ordered the type you showed in the video.
@TartantazCreates7 жыл бұрын
Thank you, I have just purchased a proportional divider. I have always just used my pencil and thumb but this will help me be more accurate :)
@StefanBaumann7 жыл бұрын
your welcome
@evelynweissman69966 жыл бұрын
T
@evelynweissman69966 жыл бұрын
Tai chi 24 from the back
@ronschlorff70895 жыл бұрын
@@alegriart In figure drawing classes I had a nice bamboo chop stick, which I had marked randomly with a sharpie, but this would be nicer; and not make me hungry!!! :D
@patriciarobledo39544 жыл бұрын
Thank you so much, this is going to improve my artwork so much! I have vision loss, so I have trouble with proportions. Bless you!!!!!
@gingerbuchanan27955 жыл бұрын
Where's my crayon? ...that was funny! Thank you Stefan, for all you share. I've learned so much. I'm binge watching your videos daily. Reading your free ebook and am truly enjoying it. I've cried twice already and I'm not a crybaby at all.
@amexjam554 жыл бұрын
Okay, I'm sold. I need to get me a one those dividers. Thank you, sir.
@h0ckeyd3 жыл бұрын
Hehehe...Thanks for confirming something for me. I've just ordered one on ebay and I mentioned buying one (without a description of what it is or does) to my brother (who's an architect) and strait away he said "yep, that'll come in very useful"...now I know how he knew. Thanks.
@SDW908086 жыл бұрын
Love your comments re: abstract art. I'm recently retired and a noob artist enjoying the journey. Thank you for sharing. PS: I just ordered a Derwent Proportional Divider after watching your vid.
@walterlichtenberg51807 жыл бұрын
Thank you Stefan, Just started using one and wouldn't want to do without it!!
@sholley76 жыл бұрын
Oh Thanks. Self taught and 30 years in.........had no idea.......simple and effective. Best wishes to you!
@rbknuckles4 жыл бұрын
Thank you for these instructions! I am just starting to use this tool. Very very helpful!!
@daveelson2136 жыл бұрын
id normally skip these types of vids..but I enjoying this...very informative
@carolstruble78387 жыл бұрын
Just discovered this amazing tool!!! Thank you so,so much
@StefanBaumann7 жыл бұрын
Your welcome
@cridbaby2 жыл бұрын
Thank you for this video. I finally learned how to use it correctly and it will help me a lot to get references on the canvas with the correct proportions. 👍🏾
@tbm71873 жыл бұрын
Heck yes! This is perhaps my biggest weakness in my drawing is to increase portions. This was SO incredibly helpful! Thank You!
@carlpen8507 жыл бұрын
I bought one of these back in the late 1990's for working out of doors... Got it from Jerry's Art-O-Rama wholesale art supplier back when they still had art catalogs... for under $6... of course that's a few years ago. I think you still might find this tool at Art Supply Warehouse on line... but you know an old fashioned compass works just as well plus you already have a lead point in it to mark your points of reference. You can also do a few extra things with a compass that you can't do with a prospect and I'm sure you can get one for a lot less money. Just so you know... this is a handy tool... just a little pricey.
@Dobroman075 жыл бұрын
Yep...I just paid 21 bucks for one on line.
@artlessons67722 жыл бұрын
I have had one of these for years and no one explained how to use it. THANK YOU!
@painting556 жыл бұрын
Thank you, Stefan. I knew about the PD but did not really know how to use it. I love it for portrait drawing.
@corvuscorone77356 жыл бұрын
Exceptionally helpful, thank you very much for that!
@bluegreensubmarine5 жыл бұрын
Thanks for the new skill!
@Gnaboaix3 жыл бұрын
Why you only have 57K subs, you should have 200K at least!! Thank you for sharing! I've watched so many of your videos without skipping, and I'm continue watching more.
@JohnBBadd5 жыл бұрын
Those high dollar ones are important for drafting, where a thousandths of an inch could change a buildings size if you are changing the scale between drawings. Of course these days most of that is CAD so I'm not sure if they are needed there.