Steingraeber & Söhne 168 Phoenix | Grand Piano with Carbon Fibre Soundboard

[@kbrizy7490]

Stu’s a beast on the keys no matter the piano. Sheesh.

[@MerriamPianos]

He certainly is! Thanks for tuning in! I'll be happy to pass on the complement to him. :)

[@emaldonadog]

I don't know if it's better or worst than other pianos, but It sounds really wonderfull.

[@MerriamPianos]

It is an impressive and interesting instrument! :)

[@mickandrews9458]

Kawai has ABS Carbon for its action, so why not go a step further with a carbon fibre soundboard. I am sure some purists will be shocked, but just as with Kawai, this should not be seen as a replacement for wood, but as an alternative, providing more choice, which has too be good. Hats off to Stenbraeber for continuing to innovate. Also, great to see the spectrum analysis in the video, which also speaks a lot for the differences between standard pianos. Many thanks for the review Stu as always.

[@MerriamPianos]

You're very welcome! Thanks for tuning in and for the kind words! We appreciate it. There will always be traditionalists and purists, but it is exciting to see companies always pushing the boundaries of piano design as new technology is developed. I think we will see some exciting innovations in the coming years. :)

[@stevengevirtz8992]

Because it sounds drenched in midle partials but sustain is a trade off.

[@MrPasqual1]

Carbon fiber does not look as durable

[@wenhuisoo4208]

​@@MerriamPianosYes. The spectrum analysis was nice. Hope to see more of that in the future in piano comparisons.

[@esimms1889]

@@MrPasqual1carbon fiber is actually far and away more durable than spruce, or any other wood for that matter. Carbon fiber doesn’t bow or split, and it’s virtually immune to changes in temperature and humidity. One significant downside, however, is that the soundboard doesn’t mature with being “played in.” Everything else being equal, the sound profile that you get from it when new should not change after decades of playing.

[@robinryder990]

That bass is awesome! Would be fun to hear Bartok on this. Could also imagine some Thelonius Monk.

[@MerriamPianos]

For sure! Those would be quite interesting selections to hear on this exciting piano. :)

[@alainbergemer9499]

Or Keith Jarrett.

[@smplchmp]

sounds more like an exotic digital than acoustic. very interesting!

[@MerriamPianos]

It is definitely a very interesting instrument! :)

[@КнязевОлег-ч7и]

Именно! Звук все таки цифровой, увы(

[@RobertJGreig]

It's interesting to see this being covered outside the UK. The history of Hurstwood Farm where these and similar instruments were developed is really fascinating. I just think it would be a very brave decision to buy one. I have noticed a couple coming up for auction more than once in the last 12 months in the UK and not making the reserve price.

[@MerriamPianos]

Thanks for tuning in and sharing your insights! With any new innovation, it can sometimes take time for the general population or customer base to warm up to the change. With that said, it is a good example of the fact that there are still places left to experiment with and innovate when it comes to piano manufacturing.

[@Snappydadshoes]

Wow. Impressive. I never knew this existed. Thank you for showing this.

[@MerriamPianos]

You're very welcome! We're glad you enjoyed the video! :)

[@almur88]

I think it might be a perfect fit for certain genres where you need the piano to cut through a busy mix or provide a specific pop vibe

[@MerriamPianos]

I could certainly see the Phoenix 168 aligning well for those musical applications! :)

[@JoeLinux2000]

I was watching a video on a carbon fiber violin just yesterday, and thought that would probably work great as a sound board. I think it has a great future for digital pianos like the Kawai CA 901 or some of the digital mini grands.

[@MerriamPianos]

Carbon fiber is quite the material! There are certainly a lot of excellent uses for it in various aspects of piano design, as Kawai has been demonstrating for many years. :)

[@franquitofrankilopez]

Suena increíble

[@MerriamPianos]

:)

[@MERCEDES-BENZS600GUARD_V12]

I love it🎹🎶

[@MerriamPianos]

:)

[@Thom726]

I’d love to try this piano out!

[@MerriamPianos]

It is a very interesting instrument to say the least! :)

[@kurtkaufman]

I've used a carbon fiber cello for at least 10 years, so this does not surprise me. The CF cello is a very "live" instrument, it initially sounded to me as if it had a built-in reverberation module! I would love to try one of these pianos. I see that the piano is only 5'6". To get a sound like that from a traditional piano would require something at least 7 ft long, in my estimation.

[@MerriamPianos]

For sure! The sustain and power is incredible. It is interesting to see what the future will hold as more instrument manufacturers embrace technological evolution. :)

[@parkthoven]

Wow~ Finally~~! I always thought Steingraeber will come out soooon~ Some says Steinway is Mercedes S class, Steingraeber is Mercedes S class Maybach~~!

[@MerriamPianos]

We're glad to be able to finally publish the video! :) I think that is a fair analogy! The Steingraeber grands are truly extraordinary instruments.

[@Erainia]

This I can get behind! Steingraeber in my opinion are the finest pianos in the world! and the Steingraeber family are such wonderful, hospitable people to boot!

[@MERCEDES-BENZS600GUARD_V12]

Vroomvroom! LOL! Seriously it sounds very nice. Wish I could try one out oneday. I will have to check if the brand is available where I'm at🎹🎶

[@worldtravel101]

What's a c bech then? 7 series lol jk. I'd be happy with any stein 🎹 piano

[@worldtravel101]

That midrange sustain is nuts❤

[@mutt1112]

what a beautiful voice, I would love to hear Debussy Arabesque I played on it.

[@MerriamPianos]

Absolutely! It is a very gorgeous instrument. :)

[@colinmiles9488]

I first listened to the Phoenix demos online quite a lot pre-Covid and thought the sound was a bit 'cold', then got a chance to hear one in person in Oct 2020. Unfortunately didn't get to play it but it compared favourably to the Steinway which was in the same room and I didn't get that feeling of coldness. The one you played here seemed much richer in tone. You didn't mention anything about the action of the tuning stability which are supposed to be other features.

[@Marklar0]

I played this instrument a couple hours ago and personally did not feel that the action was a strong point. Not sure if it needs regulation or if that's how it is, but I feel the low level dynamic control is lacking compared to Schimmel K, Shigeru Kawai, and C Bechstein in the next room over, and the refinement is not quite there. But it is a baby grand so its not the fairest comparison....I guess the huge sound this thing puts out made me forget. The tone is kind of shocking in person and I dont think this audio even gets across the way it sounds, but definitely "rich" as you said....it kinda feels like playing an organ....it has upper overtones that are so solid its kind of a spooky tone quality in the treble. IMO its great for Bach, probably interesting for pop and jazz, but challenging for Chopin and Debussy.

[@MerriamPianos]

Thanks for tuning in! I have not personally had a chance to test out this piano, so, unfortunately, I cannot attest to its tuning stability and action. With that said, perhaps, Stu will be able to speak more to that in a future video. :)

[@michelprimeau4531]

I've tried a Steingraeber grand piano (roughly 6ft maybe it was the same model) with carbon fiber soundboard once. I was a bit disappointed not because of the sound but because I want to try their upright (model 138). I was more like, why not play a bit since I'm already here. So I didn't pay attention to detail as much as you did and pick all those little details. I recognize that the sound was a bit different like so many piano I've tried, especially old one. I didn't attribute it to the soundboard particularly. I remember that the sound appeared a bit more instantaneous if it makes sense. I didn't try to push it and see how it behaves when you play loud. Who knows, it's getting harder and harder to get good timber nowaday. All alternatives are welcome, wether it's laminated or carbon fiber. The problem is the cost. Steingraeber is not at an entry level budget.

[@MerriamPianos]

Thanks so much for tuning in and sharing your insights! There are some nuanced differences in terms of tone when it comes to the various soundboard constructions. It is quite similar to the differences in touch when it comes to wood, carbon-fibre, or magnetic actions. With that said, this is one of the things that makes the piano industry quite exciting these days. There are a plethora of options to choose from that implement different advantages and innovations. :)

[@alexeykulikov2739]

How did i miss this!?

[@MerriamPianos]

Glad you stumbled upon it! :)

[@mfurman]

Interestingly, Stu very often compares digital piano action to an acoustic piano action (actions of grand pianos differ from upright pianos as far as “heaviness” is concerned) but never gives any numbers for actions when reviewing acoustic pianos! I do play an acoustic grand piano (Yamaha C7) and tested a few upright pianos. My conclusions are that upright piano action is often unpleasantly heavy (perhaps Stu’s preference for heavy actions comes from that) and acoustic grand pianos are quite light (if properly regulated). Michael

[@MERCEDES-BENZS600GUARD_V12]

You have a Yamaha C7? I remember coming across a C7X wile I was trying out a Yamaha C5X that I really loved. Sadly I didn't have the time to try that one as well. I did however try an old Yamaha CF🎹🎶

[@mfurman]

@@MERCEDES-BENZS600GUARD_V12 I do not have it but have access to it twice a week with the option to add more days. I have stopped trying to get my “perfect” digital piano and I will either keep my P-125 or get P-225 (if GHC is not inferior to GHS). By the way, I did some action noise tests recently, comparing GHS with PHA-4 (so beloved by some). If you are interested, I have uploaded two videos: Roland FP-10 (PHA-4) action noise test Yamaha P-125 (GHS) action noise test to my playlist (channel) 0 - Yamaha C7 and some tests of digital pianos There is a certain movement of FP-10 white keys that creates an unpleasant noise that Stu never talked about (as you know he loves PHA-4). Michael

[@MerriamPianos]

Hi there! I just responded to your comment on another video regarding key weights between digital and acoustic pianos. As mentioned in that comment, there are a couple of things to consider when it comes to discussing the "feel" or heaviness of an action. In any case, it is a fascinating topic and one that we will explore in greater detail in the future I'm sure. :)

[@MERCEDES-BENZS600GUARD_V12]

@@mfurman that's great. The P125 is a great instrument in my opinion. Also thanks for the video recomendations. Would love to check them out🎹🎶

[@MERCEDES-BENZS600GUARD_V12]

@@mfurman regarding the flaws of the PHA4 you mentioned this is just my opinion so if anyone els reads this reply please take this lightly. I know Merriam Music is a Roland/Kasio/Kawai dealer, and not a Yamaha dealer so this makes it a lot easier to disclose Yamaha's flaws, and not Roland, Casio, and Kawai's flaws🎹🎶

[@HS-wp5vb]

Interesting at least. The clarity of the base and the sustain are amazing. What I miss is that warmth and character of sound that only comes with natural materials.

[@MerriamPianos]

It is certainly an interesting instrument. While it possesses many of the nuances of a standard acoustic piano, it definitely has some unique and interesting characteristics. :)

[@HS-wp5vb]

@@MerriamPianos Mhm yes, certainly true. Given that Steingraeber & Söhne is probably one of the most expensive brands in the market, I just wonder if another brand - such as Kawai - was not an equally interesting partner to Phoenix. After all, carbon materials are also used for the Kawai action. But that is for Phoenix to decide, and I guess they had their reasons.

[@edkerry587]

Stu, It would be so nice to hear a classical piano piece, especially on a piano like this one.

[@MerriamPianos]

Thanks for the feedback! I will be sure to pass it on to Stu and the production team.

[@myuncle2]

I think your demo sounds better than what you hear in person.

[@MerriamPianos]

It is a matter of subjectivity of course! But, it is interesting that there are inevitably some differences in the recorded and in-person experience regardless of how much you try to make the recording as transparent as possible.

[@vinista256]

Would love to see a video on the Steingraeber Phoenix 130 upright! Don’t think it will be for sale in the U.S. anytime soon, though 😕

[@MerriamPianos]

We have not had a 130 Phoenix come through our inventory, but you can bet that we would should a video on it if we do! ;)

[@johnnyp6202]

To my ear, it sounded very clear but sort of uncomplex. I think the fundamental graph you did bears that out. Would also seem that if the fundamental is that strong that there will be little "bloom" in the sound. By bloom I mean the effect where the resonant harmonics make the tone broader and fuller and almost feel louder after the initial note is struck. Would seem the amplitudes of the harmonics would need to be closer like on the Bosendorfer for that effect to happen

[@MerriamPianos]

Thanks for sharing these insights! There are definitely some unique sonic characteristics at play with the Phoenix 168. The sustain is also quite interesting. Overall, it certainly has a unique tone, but I must say that it really is quite musical. :)

[@stanleytomczak340]

Stu, if I was buying you a piano, and you had a choice between the Phoenix model 272 or a Steingraeber E272, what would you chose???????

[@MerriamPianos]

Hi! Brent from Merriam Music here! Thanks for the question. It really comes down to a matter of personal preference of course. The Phoenix models have a very distinct tone and a ton of sustain that can be a bit divisive. My recommendation would be to test both out in person to see which one you resonate with more. :)

[@technic6455]

When will you post video about the newly released Yamaha P 525 Digital Piano?

[@MerriamPianos]

Hi! Brent here! We don't have a timeline on that video review yet, but I am sure Stu and the production team will eventually tackle that model in a review or comparison video. :)

[@technic6455]

@@MerriamPianos Thank you Please compare P525 with P515. what is the difference in KEY ACTION (NWX vs Grand Touch).

[@adrianfundescu5407]

Great sound . For a fair price :)) .

[@MerriamPianos]

The Phoenix 168 is certainly an interesting musical proposition! :)

[@hyperseah]

Carbon fibre composites have practically no fatigue limit. That means that soundboard is going to last forever. 😁

[@MerriamPianos]

Absolutely! It is quite a miraculous material with tons of potential for use in future innovations.

[@d5kenn]

Just don't take it down to the Titanic...

[@Pissarrio]

Hello, what are your thoughts on Schimmel Grand GP 169 T? and how much does a 2016 GP 169 T would cost?

[@MerriamPianos]

Hi! Brent from Merriam Music here! The Schimmel C169T is a wonderful instrument with a beautifully bright, clear voice! Unfortunately, we are not able to supply value estimates on instruments without actually getting to inspect them in person. The value of a used instrument is very dependent on its condition of course.

[@Pissarrio]

@@MerriamPianos Hello Brent, thanks for your reply. I understand your point about the need for evaluation of the instrument to determine t value. So i would say that i am just looking for a rough estimate and price rang such as from $$$ to $$$ however based on the scenario blow hypothetically speaking what would you think the retail or wholesale value for this piano would be: Schimmel 2002 169 T, in mahogany, excellent condition, well cared for and regularly tuned. What other information do you need to give an unofficial, a very rough estimate?

[@tadl.4196]

Something between Yamaha CFX and Boesendorfer?

[@MerriamPianos]

Hi! Brent here! I am not sure if I understand the question. Are you asking if this piano falls in between those two pianos in terms of quality?

[@Erainia]

On par if not beyond Bosendorfer, Steingraeber are one of the worlds finest piano makers

[@acoustic61]

Interesting. Reminds me of a carbon fiber guitar or digital piano. At first you're in awe at what it does better but over time you realize it's lacking warmth. Almost too perfect, all notes are perfectly separated. Like digital vs analog. Maybe technology should be used sparingly in traditional intruments.

[@MerriamPianos]

Those are some very excellent talking points. I think technological advancement and innovation certainly have their place with piano design. But, there is something to be said about traditionalism and the advantages of old world approaches and techniques. Like most things in life, the ideal situation probably lands somewhere in the middle. :)

[@Zoco101]

This is very interesting. Perhaps too perfect for some. I too like those bass notes very much. It didn't look like a full size grand, but wow.

[@MerriamPianos]

I can definitely understand the sentiment. There is sometimes such a thing as "too perfect" with instruments. Thanks for tuning in! :)

[@DB-bi1ph]

Exaggerated! Exactly! I think that may work pretty well for those who work with popular music, playing in events, bars, etc... definitely not for classical music though.

[@MerriamPianos]

That is fair! Tonal preference is a very subjective matter. At the end of the day, every player will have a different idea as to which tones will work in which musical settings. :)

[@triplea657aaa]

Soon we'll have fully carbon fiber pianos except for the strings

[@MerriamPianos]

It is certainly a possibility! :)

[@rogercarroll2551]

Artificial.

[@MerriamPianos]

It has a distinct tone, which will not be for everyone. But, then again, I think you would be hard pressed to find a piano that every player agrees sounds amazing.

[@OkitaNamikaze]

it's the logical next step , kawai made a mistake using carbon fiber in their actions because actions require frequent maintenance and repairs , but how often do you see sounboards and rims being repaired ? even less if it's a polyester rim , and a carbon fiber soundboard might be completely resistant to naturally occurring cracks since it has better resistance to shifts in temperature and humidity , natural materials in the action and strings for supreme personalization and durable materials for the body for a long lasting instrument.

[@MerriamPianos]

For sure! The durability and longevity factor make logical sense. It will be interesting to see how this technology gets utilized industry-wide. Also, I would say that soundboard and rim repairs are less common than action-related repairs, but it also depends on the geographic region. Naturally, these issues are far more common in regions that have very drastic humidity swings. This is true in many regions in Canada. Seasons can range from extremely dry to extremely humid.

[@Erainia]

There is a slight loss in overall tonality due to the carbon fiber in this case, I've seen these in person at the Steingraeber factory and had chance to talk with the technicians behind the soundboards too, the main intention is for places where humidity and temperature fluctuate tremendously, and for that case it's really the ultimate option, but if you're not struggling as much with those elements, then you might be better off with a standard soundboard as you do still get a noticeable boost in tone. Though it's still truly impressive that this technology works so well, and we can look forward to China developing on this even further to reduce cost in all of their pianos in the future 🤣

[@wenhuisoo4208]

I'd say that it sounds good. But the tone is not as ideal for certain styles of music, such as classical. Nevertheless, as the saying goes, 'to each his own'. Interesting piano. To me, subjectively, it is less warm and on the bright side, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, depending on your musical style. One of the advantages of an acoustic piano is just how present, real-time and immersive it sounds, compared to digitals, and this piano is no exception, despite a carbon fibre soundboard. I think I will here share some thoughts on the action of digital pianos. Some people seem to think that there are no longer any benefits to acoustic pianos in terms of action. (Other than maybe keystick length, offering better control.) I beg to differ. I find that all acoustic actions are objectively more sensitive than even the most expensive portable digitals in one aspect. Yes. Acoustics are not always more sensitive in terms of dynamic control, repetition speed and similar things of that sort. However, they are more sensitive in terms of articulation, particularly when playing without the pedal. There is an aspect of piano playing that most pianists, even classical ones do not seem to care too much about. That is damper control from the keys... the control from the piano keys(not the pedal) of how a tone is released. So far, all portable, even very high end digitals that I have played fail to replicate this control. (I have not played many. This is just my experience.) The speed at which the sound dies away during release on a digital is pre fabricated, unless you are using the pedal. There, you can create a slow dying away of sound with a slow pedal release. Some digitals claim to do this from the keys as well, like in an acoustic, but I find the control to be very minimal. For example, the Casio PXS 7000 claims to offer such control, however, in my testing, I could not really detect any variations in tone release speed in relation to different key release speeds. I could not replicate the effect even in the bass registers, where on an acoustic, it is particularly obvious. In a nutshell, portable digitals do not offer control over tone release from the keys. They only offer that control from the pedals. This means a decrease in control over articulation when not using the pedal. I actually hate to play Baroque music on digitals. For Baroque, digitals feel very disconnected and uncontrollable. I cannot speak for hybrid pianos such as the Kawai Novus series as I have not had the opportunity to try them. Note: Some people may question if key release speed is at all able to control tone release speed. I would say, just try this. If you have access to an acoustic piano, press one note in the bass region of the piano and then, release it very slowly. You will immediatly hear the effect I mentioned. If possible open up the piano so that you are able to see the mechanism at work. Pay attention to the dampers as you release the key. Thanks again, Stu, for your insightful review! You are the number one reviewer of pianos on KZbin, in my opinion. And also, thank you Brent, for working to reply to the many comments!

[@MerriamPianos]

Hi! Brent here! Firstly, thank you so much for the kind words! We sincerely appreciate the feedback and sharing of wonderful insights. I definitely agree with your synopsis that this piano has its place with certain styles of music. As a musician myself, I have multiple pianos, multiple guitars, and multiple drum sets. Beyond the fun that comes with collecting instruments, I have always viewed having this arsenal as being in a situation of having different tools for different jobs. The piano that works perfectly for one style of music might be completely misaligned for another. Whenever it is possible, having a range of choices can be quite beneficial. In terms of your comments about digital pianos, there is definitely a lot of truth to what you're saying about the responsiveness of specific performance nuances and details. While digital piano technology has come a long way in recent years, at the end of the day, even the very best digital pianos are emulations of the real thing. However, there is an interesting conversation to be had about the new realm of musical possibilities that innovations like modelling technology present to pianists and musicians. The capability of creating new "piano-esque" sounds, which are entirely new and unique is quite exciting to certain genres. Thanks so much once again and all the best!

[@wenhuisoo4208]

@@MerriamPianos Completely agree! Digitals and acoustics each have their place. They are not perfect replacements for each other, either way.

[@esimms1889]

This piano is crying out for a VST modeling team to get their hands on.

[@MerriamPianos]

That would be quite cool! Maybe we'll see a sample pack of the Phoenix 168 in the near future! :)

[@oneirdaathnaram1376]

Sounds kind of "clinical" to my ears. It's clear, but the tone does not live.

[@MerriamPianos]

I can understand that. At the end of the day, beauty is in the ears of the beholder when it comes to tonal preferences.

[@oneirdaathnaram1376]

@@MerriamPianos Definitely, yes. No negativity intended from my part. It certainly is a valuable experience, that instrument. But I think I would prefer a wooden soundboard. On the other hand, I can imagine that the technique of taking the pressure of the strings away from the soundboard (did I understand that correctly?) really helps in gaining sustain. The sustain is otherworldly, after all, isn't it? One almost needs to kill the tone, it won't die! Thank you, in any case, for the cultivated video. It needs a lot of meticulous effort in order to present it that neatly.

[@abrahamben-zeev9142]

sounds bright and a little muddy at the same time. As if tho different instruments are playing at the same time. This analog piano sounds digitalized.

[@MerriamPianos]

Every set of ears are a little different. Tonal preference and perception is a highly subjective matter of course. Thanks so much for tuning in and sharing your thoughts!

[@E.T.1971]

If anything, it is certainly not muddy but clear!