An Unrecognised Drawing Issue That Robs Your Drawings of Realism

[@danielgrezda3339]

I have been struggling with drawing clothes, but the moment I thought about the shapes and not the outline, my clothes got twice as better! Thanks for putting out these videos at such an unbelievable rate!

[@stephentraversart]

Great news Daniel. If what we’re doing isn’t working, could be time to find something new to try. Have fun with this new technique. 😀

[@mimo4000]

For those of us who never had an art teacher in school, but are coming g to it later in life, this is wonderful insight!!! Thank you so much!

[@stephentraversart]

I’m very happy to oblige. All the best 😀

[@angeljustis7890]

This was excellent. I had an art teacher that told me don't just draw the outlines like I was tracing a subject, I needed to visualize the 3-dimensional shapes of animals, people, etc. I never really understood how to "see" things that way until your video. Thanks so much!

[@stephentraversart]

That’s great Angel. It sounds like you’ve really caught on now. I’ve just posted a video to celebrate my first million views on KZbin with my considered top three tips from all the advice/ teaching that I’ve given in over 470 videos. Have a look if you’re interested. 😀

[@frodethorsenbrseth5014]

I have watched a lot of your videos and been inspired. Then I started drawing, and of course I run into issues. But returning now after becoming more aware of my own gaps in intuition, your videos become three times as potent and valuable! In particular, the part about the bush cleared up a lot for me. Indicate the shape with the hatchings, not just he outline, and don't get frustrated! I could recognise aspects of your parody in my own attempts. I think I find it frustrating to draw messy subjects because I eventually go blind, and struggle to recognise the subject in my own drawing after a while. That is even true for me while watching your masterful hatchings. It is much more motivating to draw something where I notice progress with each minute, instead of the opposite. While still learning how to do hatchings, motivation is important to stay on top of technique. Perhaps I should start with simpler subjects, and train my eye and hand!

[@stephentraversart]

Thanks. That’s very encouraging for me to hear. Yes, we don’t learn by being overwhelmed. Pull back to subjects you have a chance with. It’s more fun as well. 😀

[@hongkongtennis]

Hi Stephen. I have watched a vast number of drawing tutorials, and recently a few of yours. Your drawings are wonderful. Your subjects and demonstrations are excellent. Your tutorials rank with the best I’ve seen.

[@stephentraversart]

Thanks Bruce. That’s very pleasing and encouraging to hear. Hope your drawings are progressing well. All the best. 😀

[@mariebarker4499]

hi, please watch Watchman on the Wall 88 on KZbin

[@SpectrumOfChange]

Their tutorials really are among the best!

[@monsoongirlnyc]

How wonderful. Now I know why my drawing looks so much better when I go outside and draw rather than work from a reference photo. Thank you.

[@stephentraversart]

Yes, the 3 Dimensionality of the form is more obvious outside. But to be forewarned about photos is to be forearmed. 😀

[@CaptainBrawnson]

This is a very good basic suggestion, but I would hardly call it 'unrecognized.' It's why most beginner level classes have such a large focus on charcoal, since the medium forces light and volume to be your primary tools.

[@stephentraversart]

Thanks. I suppose I feel that most of my subscribers are self taught and that following edges as lines seems to be the more intuitive approach. But it’s a good point that charcoal is a great medium for subtlety with light and volume. Thanks for your thoughts 😀

[@PhuongNguyen-wm8wi]

I totally with Stephen. I am self taught, and made all the mistakes he listed in this video and others 😂. For that, I am grateful for his videos ❤️

[@justinerogers8696]

This is GOLD. Thank you Stephen..you have taught me more about art in two you tubes than I😃❤ learned in a year at school. I wish we had had the internet when I was at school

[@stephentraversart]

Thanks Justine, this is very encouraging to hear. Have fun with your new drawing knowledge. 😀

[@jonaszmichaek5766]

Superior advice, Stephen. Thank you!

[@Maria-lleriuqs]

Thank you. A very clear and succinct explanation of a complex and intellectual task. I love to paint but have quickly realised drawing is so pivotal to interpreting what I’m trying to convey. Really appreciate your time and intellect in putting this together. Cheers.😊

[@stephentraversart]

Thanks for such a kind response Maria. I’m very glad it’s been helpful to your art. 😀

[@lyiusapangolin]

As someone who's found myself generally preferring painting to lining over the years, this video is absolutely correct. When the video started off with "You shouldn't think of this as lines," I immediately thought 'Form!' before the second part of the sentence came up. Whenever I start a digital painting piece, I always start by laying out the 3D form of it - the full idea of what the shape should look like, and add smaller shapes to the edges where I feel there is a difference in geometry to be highlighted. - I never think about the outlines of my painting until I'm shading, or until I'm trying to make contrast, at which point I will consider "is this edge under direct light? would it be brighter?" and i start considering how the form of other shapes may cast a shadow. Even before I start the full shading layers and texturing, I find myself looking at it and going "this looks pretty believable in 3D space!" which makes finding out how to light it SO much easier, as I can look at a foreshortened object, and understand how it would cast a shadow better than one I've solely lined out. It also makes figuring out how your textures should be if you are the kind of artist to do textures, since you'll notice as it moves away from you, the details shouldn't get smaller, but should rather contract at an angle. It's very similar to getting smaller, visually - but that can lead to alot of lining that isn't very efficient (and might look wrong as you go along.)

[@stephentraversart]

Thanks. I painted in oils for ten years before I started drawing and I’m sure that has informed my thinking and drawing significantly. Thanks for sharing your experience. 😀

[@lyiusapangolin]

@@stephentraversart Yup! I've found that alot of the principals of drawing with lines are helpful for painting, but there's also plenty of things painting has taught me as-well. While I may be headed more into the painting direction now, I find tutorials like this to still convey fundamental information, regardless of style.

[@stephentraversart]

True. Glad to have been helpful. 😀

[@tomrees4812]

This makes a lot of sense to me. It also answers a question I’d wondered about- how best to build up a drawing. In future I’m going to try this approach on everything I draw because I hate the way my drawings look too much like cartoons.

[@stephentraversart]

That sounds great Tom. I’m glad you’ve got some ideas to try. Hope they work out for you. 😀

[@johnjones928]

I couldn't agree more, wish I had this advice years ago. Once I realized that line work is more of a mid step rather than the beginning more of my drawings started taking on new life. I learned to consider the composition as a whole working on position, form, shape and proportions, and then refining those with the line work and shading. I also found that sometimes things are better left at one of the intermediate stages, like backgrounds, over detailing a part of a piece can take away from its viseral impact. Subsribed.

[@stephentraversart]

Yes. Probably one exception is a lot of comic art, where I think line remains more the focus, because of the need for pared back artwork, though visualising form would still be vital I think. 😀

[@tcfencing9772]

this applies to beginning a painting as well. I tell my students all the time to imagine they are "building" the object or subject they are painting; connecting shapes and always thinking of dimension. They are all getting this video for reference.

[@Brosephus]

Just wanted to say hello and that I appreciate your Domenico Angelo reference profile pic! Haha I studied the French school of fencing though with that grip because Im not some layman Italian who uses over hand force like some filthy barbarian. Is that a dig at you?... I mean its not French 😋 I do find it odd though that there are a lot of fencers who also like to draw. :)

[@tcfencing9772]

@@Brosephus you sound like you have a sense of humor as well. I happen to be a fencer who likes to draw and paint.

[@Brosephus]

@@tcfencing9772 Yeah Im just really happy to meet another fencer in the comments! I really hope you keep fencing and showing people. Its such a super under appreciated hobby I cant help but nerd out on it and the joy it brings haha. Anyways I wish you the best and hope you have a great day!!! Take care brother!! :)

[@stephentraversart]

Sounds like excellent advice to me. I painted in oils for 10 years before I started drawing, and I know my painting experience informed my drawing techniques. All the best to your students with it. 😀

[@deanmorgan7011]

Late in life drawer here, what ypu just did makes much more sense to me, I've never thought of it that way , I think this will really help me, thankyou

[@stephentraversart]

Have you seen my video for starting to draw later in life? Might have some helpful thoughts for you. But I’m glad this one has made sense. All the best with your drawing. Never too old to be amazing! 😀

[@deanmorgan7011]

@Stephen Travers Art No, I havnt its my first visit here, but I will look at that. I wish I'd started years ago, but yes, you're right it's never too late, thankyou I look forward to catching up on your lessons.

[@susankrzywicki]

So many of us learned to draw starting with the "blind contour" method - this is probably what lead to an over-focus on drawing the outline first, without regard to form.

[@stephentraversart]

Yes, I’m not so sure that’s a helpful way of learning this. 😀

[@karakaaa3371]

It's still important for beginners who don't yet have the eye or understanding to draw forms. If you tell them to think about the construction, at best they'll think of a generic building or bird instead of adapting that knowledge to what they see. At worst, they'll think of a 2D symbol instead. Personally tho, I prefer starting with shapes and values, such as by using negative space. It's more fun and rewarding (looks nicer), and teaches to draw what you see without the trap of focusing on outlines.

[@rev.bobertbockstop7057]

I learned this all when I was about 12 years old. I see these mistakes often in the work of many artists. Good and accurate video of elementary mistakes.

[@stephentraversart]

Thanks. All the best with your drawing 😀

[@Brosephus]

This video REALLY explains this thought ive always had with drawing that I couldnt put into words. Like I always found that my drawings are more "better" when I would start in the middle of the piece than outlining. I didnt realize that what I was doing was mimicking form. Im going to be more aware and conscious to keep practicing it.

[@stephentraversart]

Yes, your experience seems to be exactly the issue I’m talking about. All the best continuing to put this into practice in future. 😀

[@alexr.3504]

I only recently got back into drawing; this makes soooooo much intuitive sense to me!! Thank you!!

[@stephentraversart]

Welcome back Alex. I’m glad to have helped you along. 😀

[@stanwellback]

This is very helpful, Stephen. Your speeded-up sketching makes it difficult to catch the detail and nuance of your linework, but I slow the playback speed of the video to .25x in settings. That makes a big difference. I appreciate why you need to speed up your videos, but I definitely learn a lot more when watching you draw in real time. Thanks again for a great lesson. 👍🏻

[@stephentraversart]

Great to hear Duncan. I’ve only just learnt that we can adjust the speed when we watch KZbin via the little cog. 😀

[@lewishosking]

This may be the most useful drawing tip I've heard. It's too easy to fall into the habit of viewing something as a singular instead of multiple pieces. It's something I'm guilty of. I'm looking forward to testing this out.

[@stephentraversart]

Great to hear Lewis. Hope it works for you. 😀

[@heavenwaits]

art student here! wanted to say thank you so much for the video, was helpful and informative and your insights are so well-articulated! wishing you all the best!

[@stephentraversart]

Thanks Nikita. Glad it was helpful. 😀

[@B30pt87]

Oh, that was SO good. What a difference! Yes, it makes a lot of sense, and I'm going to remember this forever. Thank you!

[@stephentraversart]

Best way to remember it is to put it into practice straight away. Time for a drawing, I think. 😀

[@dianepetzold1523]

Hi Stephen- Just wanted to say thank you. I just recently discovered your channel and find your videos incredibly helpful. I paint more than I draw but find this works to improve how I see things and my execution in both. Looking forward very much to your future videos!

[@stephentraversart]

Wonderful Diane. I painted in oils for 10 years before I started drawing, so I know my painting method informed my drawing in so many ways. 😀

[@jasonmiller5995]

Mr. Travers, this technique, as you’ve explained it here, is as helpful as anything ever and I Thank You Sir.🙏

[@stephentraversart]

I’m so pleased you’ve found it helpful Jason. All the best with your drawing 😀

[@peterthomas6151]

This is exactly the thing I’ve recognised and been trying to address in my drawing lately. Would welcome any more advice you have on this!

[@stephentraversart]

I think the video describes it all. But try and consciously think about it before you put pen on paper for a while, and see if it doesn’t improve how you place your lines a bit. All the best with it Peter. 😀

[@chiaram6183]

I'm so thankful I've found your channel, subscribed! Amazing stuff

[@stephentraversart]

I’m really glad as well Chiara. Welcome aboard. 😀

[@bluefish4064]

Best advice i was given was draw what you see not what you think you know is there !

[@stephentraversart]

And it’s excellent advice as well. Hope i works well with your drawing. 😀

[@Jonanation]

Hi! I still consider myself somewhat of a beginner in art, and I suspect I will always feel that way a little bit. There’s always more to learn! But this is something that I actually realized somewhat already, so maybe I’m not a complete beginner after all😅 I am self taught and learned anatomy through mostly youtube tutorials. And most of the good ones were highly focused on understanding 3D. I learned to construct the human body from boxes and cylinders and spheres pretty early on. Anyway, I just wanted to share that I finally knew something art related already! Ofc I still need to work more on it, to really accurately draw things in 3D. That’s where your other videos come in! The most useful perspective vids I have seen in a while! Thanks for doing what you do, I almost always come out of your videos feeling like I had a revelation in my art understanding.

[@stephentraversart]

In some ways we are all always beginners, so don’t worry about labels but rather enjoy the journey. That understanding about form will be so helpful with any subject. And ‘revelation’ is such a strong word, I’m so encouraged to hear how helped you’ve been. All the best as you keep onwards. 😀

[@alma-wi]

as I understand it, it's all about the difference between SHAPE and FORM; SHAPE beeing a two-dimensional outline of an object, while FORM refers to a three-dimensional aspect formed by the shade and light. A SHAPE is a flat, two-dimensional figure that can be defined by lines, while a FORM is a three-dimensional object that has height, width, and depth.

[@stephentraversart]

They can each be helpful in different ways when we draw. Perhaps that’s a new video. Thanks for sharing your observations. Very helpful. 😀

[@jandunn169]

The light bulbs are going off in my head with this lesson. Your lessons have more depth (no pun intended) than most instruction I have found in drawing books and on You tube. I have always wanted to suggest a strong sense of roundness and form in my drawings, but I think I have been focusing too much on the outline and proportions of what I am drawing rather than finding ways to round out the form.

[@stephentraversart]

Thanks Jan. Sounds like you have a good grasp of a very helpful direction for your drawings. All the best with it. 😀

[@theopenroad2011]

Best description of symbols vs outlines and utilizing shapes... And I've been around the block

[@stephentraversart]

Haha. Glad it was helpful. 😀

[@mushfiqahasan2263]

,capturing the feel of what we r seeing is the real point here!!.. And i 've started noticing it in my drawing lacking that realness and feel of my reference..i always get drawn into details so much,that overall feel goes missing.... Lots of technical difficulties there! And i have tons of problms and errors too😢😢

[@stephentraversart]

Seeing what you’ve missed before is one of the signs you’re improving. So now you use your new awareness to make changes in the way you draw, to get more of the effect you can see in your mind. All the best with it, and I hope you still find the enjoyment in it all. 😀

[@michalzahavawoolfson1994]

Thank you. My formal art education was over 50 years ago and I was taught to draw life including 3d and light and dark etc. Since I retired (not from art) I have seen friends paintings. They are from photos and flat. Even when there is an attempt at shadowing. I tried adult art classes but most of the time it was : “copy from the photo” so I gave up. I draw and paint from what I see including the gradients of light and dark. And I check my work by turning it upside down and on its side. Your suggestions are great. I will add them to my system. Thank you , MW.

[@stephentraversart]

You sound like you have a solid foundation for your art Michael. Yes, we need to restore the depth to our photos before we start to reference them. I think the issue shows itself in portraits more than other subjects. It’s great that your art is still bringing you such joy. 😀

[@johanp8391]

Good video. Lessons teaching us to see as artists are invaluable. Thank you for helping us visualize our subject more effectively.

[@stephentraversart]

Thanks Johan. So much about good drawing has nothing to do with the pen. 😀

[@marjoriebader5754]

I have thoroughly enjoyed all (?) of your videos. I doubly appreciate that they seem to fill a void on KZbin for reproducing detail. Thank you. I hope that you will also help with the type of studio work you showed first. The beauty of your advice is that it works for lots of media and goals. So, since I have way more interest in drawing that includes washes and rulers, I hope you will help us with that too. Thanks again.

[@stephentraversart]

All? Haven’t counted for a while, but I think it’s well over 300! At this rate there’ll be a video on just about everything including the kitchen sink soon. Thanks for your enthusiasm. 😀

[@marjoriebader5754]

@@stephentraversart 300? I'm pretty sure I've seen 7! Guess I should look further

[@TheChillennial]

Been drawing a long while, feel a little confidence boost right now. Soon as I saw that first photo my brain was like.... Whoa... That's like the flatest looking tower photo I've ever seen.

[@stephentraversart]

Haha. That’s great! All the best with your drawing. 😀

[@booleah6357]

I learned a drawing exercise like this that's kind of fun. You draw a series of 3d shapes and stack them together. It's a really helpful practice and you can get some really cool compositions from it.

[@stephentraversart]

That sounds like the opposite of what I do. I deconstruct the object into smaller component 3D shapes. But it sounds like fun. 😀

[@Babyjohn8170]

This is my third video on your channel that I l’ve enjoyed. You have a new subscriber. Excited to learn more. 😊👍

[@stephentraversart]

Great to hear. Welcome aboard. Hope there’s much more enjoyment ahead for you. 😀

[@Aurora_Animates]

Hey , I’m doing my GCSEs this is very helpful thank you! :)

[@stephentraversart]

Glad to help out. All the best with them. I’ve just posted a video to celebrate my first million views on KZbin with my considered top three tips from all the advice/ teaching that I’ve given in over 470 videos. Have a look if you’re interested. 😀

[@vallisobstance8197]

this has been a very insightful video! very well represented and explained

[@stephentraversart]

Thanks. Always encouraging to hear this 😀

[@franciscocalvo1980]

I'm architect and I couldn't be more agreed.

[@stephentraversart]

That’s great to hear Francisco. Appreciate you telling me. 😀

[@sampleoffers1978]

Definitely interesting to think as individual objects but many of us are terrible with scale, and then in a portrait trying to start with hair, just gets crazy trying to leave everything it's own proportion...table cloths are a little easy

[@stephentraversart]

Scale, proportions, there’s no shortcuts when it comes to freehand drawing. All the best with it. 😀

[@benyamamare6505]

Thank you, this is very helpful. It will do wonders to my sketches just watching this one video!

[@stephentraversart]

That’s great to hear Benyam. Of course, I hope you will watch more than one video!😀

[@amsalik]

wonderful.... stephen thank you very much... the way you explain and your voice is just awesome.

[@stephentraversart]

Thanks Major. I appreciate your kind words. 😀

[@mj_dolman5122]

Thank you so much! This tutorial is so clear and so helpful. It may be exactly the thing I need to make drawing easier and more enjoyable for me. I consider myself skilled at drawing, but it's because I push myself and sometimes do dozens of drawings of the same subject. When I went to art school years ago, I was taught a technique in which one focuses on negative space, and thereby, the outlines of the object. While I still believe understanding negative space is important, that technique is crazy making when drawing complex subjects such as architecture and foliage. Between that and the habits I had already acquired but could not articulate as a drawing obsessed child, I feel it made drawing harder than it needed to be. Now I am an artist with a long list of exhibitions, but I still want to keep learning and evolving all the time! In short I think your advice is excellent for both beginning and experienced artists.

[@stephentraversart]

I find drawing via negative space an extremely valuable technique in various situations, but still find having a solid grasp of overall general form essential when I start to draw. Glad this video was helpful for you in ways. 😀

[@mj_dolman5122]

@@stephentraversart Yes very helpful thanks! I need to keep growing as an artist all the time.

[@stephentraversart]

We all do 😀

[@Nienpet]

Thanks Stephen. I found this very insightful and helpful.

[@stephentraversart]

That’s great Marius. Just what I was hoping. 😀

[@sherryscoloringandpaintingcorn]

you are brilliant stephen. Also i have a artist friend who lives in Australia and you sound a lot like her. The way you say the word "here" was the giveaway lol. So howdy from the USA . I look forward to seeing more of your tutorials. More of a colorist than a drawer but looking to expand that skill as its needed in watercolor work a lot.

[@laconstitucionpoliticademe6410]

woah, i noticed how similar are gesture and measurement drawing, i thought they were different worlds until i saw this video. Now i comprend how important is complementing 2d and 3d polygons

[@stephentraversart]

I guess I’m trying to have the best of both worlds! 😀

[@emmanuelpower2439]

Great fundamental advice. Thank you. Really enjoyed your demo.

[@stephentraversart]

Glad you found it so helpful Emmanuel. Have fun using it in your drawing. 😀

[@TheUPwner]

I highly recommend Draw A Box for people wanting to better improve their skill with form, and Peter Han, who the course is based off of.

[@stephentraversart]

I don’t know of this myself, so can’t comment on it , but thanks for the suggestion. 😀

[@vermis8344]

For each example I smugly thought 'yeah, I do it the second way', until we got to the shrub. 😳

[@stephentraversart]

Haha. It you think it would be helpful, why not give it a go? 😀

[@verdedoodleduck]

I love the breakdown of the bird. Very nice. I try to envision how the bird without feathers (I can't see the picture in my mind but I try to figure out the mechanical form for the skeleton and muscles). would look so I can tell whether the feathers are ruffled from it's structure or they are being fluffed (seems to make a significant difference in how I draw it). I think herons can make a good example - when their necks are nestled to the breast you can easily just scrub in bumps (or forget the feathers are bulging at all and draw it with a short neck). :o

[@stephentraversart]

Thanks Scott. I actually hardly ever briefs, but I often try and visualise trees without their leaves as part of my drawing process. Whatever moves our drawing closer to what we want is a good process for us. Have fun. 😀

[@travisnobleart]

The outline (or edges) is the main performance, but the performance needs first a stage, which is the form.

[@Powerphail]

Great way of putting it.

[@stephentraversart]

Edges are vital to consider, especially in silhouette, even more so, but my point is that particularly for self taught artists, a preoccupation with line can be at the expense of the overall form of the object. Except in deliberate stylistic drawings, I think line should be subservient to the form. It’s the form we are drawing, not a series of lines. When we first look at a drawing, we should see the overall form ahead of lines. I come across many drawings where I see outline ahead of the form because it it too heavy handed and emphasised. This has a flattening effect. But it becomes a tricky issue to debate without examples. 😀

[@travisnobleart]

@Stephen Travers Art Definitely agree. Lines have a kind of duality to them in their symbology. I have a hard time describing it too, but I'll try. Lines can represent reality, meaning a representation of something we can see. But, a line also can be used like a language, it's the artist telling the viewer this is what I mean, the same way words are used to describe. The breadth of the line compared to the nearest whites of the page, or whether a line exists or doesn't (though it may still be implied) helps the viewer of the artwork decide what the symbology is trying to say. The best way to compare would be like a line used in manga, the images may be flat but that's not the point. The images are read like words, and that helps the flow of the narrative. While on the other hand, the work of an artist like Joseph Pennell the line is used to convey a sense of realism and keep the eyes on the page (I really enjoy this juxtaposition. One artist trying to get its viewer to leave the page, another trying to keep the viewer to stay!). A more easier way to explain this would be perhaps to say that all art is abstract, but the levels of abstraction vary. And I think it's these levels of abstraction that give the artist the most freedom in choice. Glad I found your channel, by the way. Thanks!

[@stephentraversart]

I usually try and get the viewer to stay on the page but to move around it. I appreciate your telling me your thoughts. 😀

[@debbiebruce6920]

I learned so much in this video-enjoyed it so much.

[@stephentraversart]

So encouraging to hear Debbie. Thanks 😀

[@jeromebonto8680]

Thank you very much Stephen. This is very helpful.

[@stephentraversart]

Glad it made sense to you Jerome. 😀

[@EnglishwithAlan]

Thank you, Stephen. You seem to think and observe on a whole different level and while I don’t always think my. Rain can reach that level, I really appreciate having the revelation that such a level exists. Maybe someday.

[@stephentraversart]

That’s kind Alan practice brings improvement, so keep at it, and you now have some new techniques to think about and try. An why shouldn’t you do better than me with it!😀

[@EnglishwithAlan]

@@stephentraversart I just reread my post. You probably figured it out but I meant to “I don’t always think my brain can …”

[@stephentraversart]

👍Autocorrect gets us all. 😆

[@EnglishwithAlan]

@@stephentraversart I call mine fat fingers syndrome. They aren’t actually. More like piano playing fingers.

[@afishynado6812]

Fairywrens are quite the cute little round birds. :)

[@stephentraversart]

They visit when our yard is overgrown. It gives them safe spaces from the big birds!😀

[@afishynado6812]

@@stephentraversart We have a family of Superb Fairywrens who nest in our garden as well during springtime. They love our hedge. :)

[@codingchallenges]

Thank you for all your awesome videos!

[@stephentraversart]

Glad they’re helpful. Please help my channel and tell your friends about it. Have fun. 😀

[@stephentraversart]

And thanks for your kind SuperThanks 😀

[@zaqareemalcolm]

Part of me as digital painter who likes el greco and impressionism: "yeah makes sense" Part of me who's a manga/ink artist who likes art nouveau and more graphic/iconographic drawings, and now somehow struggles with that kind of simpler style: "guess I'll die"

[@stephentraversart]

Haha. Re manga style, we don’t have to draw the form explicitly, but rather visualise the form as we draw it. To be thinking capturing the shape and feel of the form with our mark, rather than laying down an outline. Make sense?😀

[@zaqareemalcolm]

@@stephentraversart My problems are keeping that 2d lineart look and/or striking a balance between that and a 3d/painterly render, though I've gotten better at that deliberately practicing it + looking at other people's line and wash images and wips XD

[@dabus4580]

I believe grade school art classes haven't helped in this. My art classes talked a couple minutes about the subject, and then we had a set time limit to complete the project. To me it felt like getting something down on paper was worth more than it looking good or developing good habits and skills.

[@stephentraversart]

Hmmm. Sounds like there was quite a bit missing from your art class. But it’s never too late to learn. All the best with it 😀

[@Powerphail]

Wonderful video and bit of insight! Definitely something I'm guilty of 😅

[@stephentraversart]

Glad it was relevant, for you. Something you can think about next drawing. 😀

[@LanguageOfTheMad]

Love your videos, super helpful! One thing though that is kind of distracting is this weird audio glitch when there is a cut in editing. I start to anticipate it and lose focus. Could just be me and my OCD though, lol.

[@stephentraversart]

Yes, I’m sorry. I do everything on my phone with the free iMovie app. I’m really not an IT guy and it has become a bit glitchy. I am looking at something a bit upgraded, but this is all in the twilight zone of my comfort zones.

[@pyro226]

Inretesting that you hatch the shapes in the direction of the object itself. My first instinct was to hatch in the direction my eyes move over the tree so the viewer can experience the tree from my perspective rather than the tree for what it really is. My eyes travel from left to right along the downward angled shadow. Then they travel from bottom left to top right for the lighter areas of the reference. Not sure how such would turn out though.

[@stephentraversart]

Of course, we’re all free to hatch the way we think works best for what we want to achieve, but I hope I’ve given you more choice. 😀

[@DelfaTime]

"guildelines" yes beginner and even pro both still struggle on this topic that is crazy we need to to talk more shapes and the other fundamentals etc ...

[@stephentraversart]

It has certainly been a helpful area for me to consider. All the best with your drawing. 😀

[@judihopewell2499]

Very very helpful instruction, thank you. Could not figure out the squeaks and bumps in sound track, tHen i figured it out, it;s editing cuts…..so much to learn when being a utuber!

[@stephentraversart]

You better believe it! I think I’m a better teacher and artist than video producer!😀

[@peaoat3608]

Vey helpful tips except I wouldn't call it a mistake. The a la prima pure outline drawing is a skill like any other that can be worked towards and it's not easy to pull off. Warhol, Matisse and many others mastered it. They would draw an outline while at the same time having a great sense of dimensionality. What I call a "mistake" is sticking with a lazy habit and being satisfied with one and the same way of doing things without curiosity.

[@stephentraversart]

Agreed. I love Matisse’s work. But I’m sure he got to such pared back line work from having mastered form and line in a more realism-focussed way. You make good points. And for the sake of a good thumbnail, some statements have to be under qualified. 😀

[@lazarusgray1188]

Thanks, from a new subscriber. Though I do actually draw cartoons, now I'll just draw better cartoons. I'm most grateful for the time this excellent, succinct video took you to make :)

[@stephentraversart]

Welcome aboard my channel Lazarus. Haha, nothing against cartoons. They’ve given me much joy over the years. 😀

[@Robert.Johnston]

Thank you for sharing this is most helpful

[@stephentraversart]

Glad to hear this Robert. Thanks 😀

[@AlaskaCulmone]

This is huge!! Thank you ❤

[@stephentraversart]

Great. I hope it translates hugely into your drawing. All the best with it!😀

[@AliceHasenkohl]

I think working with outline is a good tactic for people having difficulty picking up a pen/feeling comfortable drawing at all. It gets good, fast results without being too confusing and potentially frustrating. I dont think it is wrong to approach drawing like that, if it gets people drawing.

[@stephentraversart]

If it gets good results, there’s no problem. But I see so many drawings where outline has been at the expense of the overall form because the focus on line meant the shape hadn’t been adequately observed, and then captured in the line. 😀

[@rgrantconacher5300]

Very good information Great video and thank you

[@stephentraversart]

Thanks. Glad it was helpful. 😀

[@Cropcircledesigner]

I never had this problem and I'm wondering if it's because my stereo vision is poor. Basically I see in 2D and rely on shadows and perspective to understand the world around me, so the thought of drawing a building like it's a cardboard cut out is super counter-intuitive to me.

[@stephentraversart]

Sounds like you’ve sorted it just fine. Well done. 😀

[@deangaskins1746]

Dear Stephen Your tactics on drawing is very different to what I've seen on other KZbin channels. It's more detail

[@stephentraversart]

That’s interesting Dean. This is how I produce the drawings I produce. Why not give it a go and see how it works for you. All the best. 😀

[@SteinGauslaaStrindhaug]

I guess this is the reason tracing directly over a photo usually makes really awkward images; and at best makes an okay (ish) copy of the reference without giving you any real understanding of what you drew.

[@SteinGauslaaStrindhaug]

Ironically in my most recent portraits I technically "traced" a lot more on top of the reference than I used to; often at least 3 times at different levels of detail. But I'm not tracing the outline; I'm outlining regions of identical or similar value at different levels of detail. And then I simplify those on different layers (I'm mainly painting digitally); and then I draw a new set of sketches off to the side of the reference. Well, to be fair I still often when starting up, do one lazy outline trace; but that's more so I can see if I the reference image still inspires me when I just see the rough outline and not the full glorious details of the photo. And I usually discard this trace immediately. Especially when using someone else's stock photos as reference I've realised I prefer technically "bad" photos of interesting subjects rather than flawless photos; since an underexposed and blurry photo looks just as good or better when reduced to an outline; while a perfect studio photo will at best look almost as good in painting form not better. Even if I could perfectly copy the photo it feels rather pointless to me to use a lot of time to make something that at best looks just as good as the reference. Because I'm much better at details than large scale proportions; I often still draw one layer directly on top of the reference with straight lines between eyes, tip of the nose, wings of the nose, corners of the mouth, three extreme points of the hairline and three of the jaw, to get a rough "wireframe" of the main measurements that need to be correct. Sometimes I just re-draw this grid next to the reference free hand and just control that it's okay by overlaying the "traced" frame; other times I just use it directly while making the first rough freehand sketch.

[@stephentraversart]

I think this is a good understanding of what I’m saying Stein. I’ve just posted a video to celebrate my first million views on KZbin with my considered top three tips from all the advice/ teaching that I’ve given in over 470 videos. Have a look if you’re interested. 😀

[@SueUTube]

Mind blown. Thank you.

[@stephentraversart]

Glad it was helpful for you. 😀

[@klm8083]

So helpful!! Thank you!

[@stephentraversart]

Excellent 👏 My pleasure 😀

[@tanderson2676]

I so enjoy your videos and advice. A bit off topic.. Do you favour the Coptic liners over other pens? I'm also curious about the green tape.. is it a coding system you have?

[@stephentraversart]

Thanks. The green tape is low adhesive tape to hold my reference and drawing paper in place while I draw since I’m videoing all the time. I did put some on one 0.3 mm pen so I didn’t have to keep checking them all to find it. Yes, I do like COPIC pens. When I started drawing in ink I bought 5-6 brands and COPIC seemed to work best for me. I tried the Sketch markers for adding tone shortly after and liked how they handled, so kept using them. But they’re not cheap, at least in Australia. 😀

[@Heaview]

I'm kinda confused, to be fair, using outlines as in the first examples like that always seemed like a sloppy work for me. I never thought that looking for shape and form would be the "correct" thing to do, because it always seemed as the only possible way to observe things to me 😅

[@stephentraversart]

I think it partly depends of our art journey. It’s probably less likely if we’ve painted more, as form is more prominent in most painting process. But in drawing, particularly coming from a childhood copying comics, outline becomes more of a focus. Trying to think form and value is less intuitive holding a 0.1 mm black fine liner than it is holding a brush with a chosen value laden on it, I think. 😀

[@Heaview]

@@stephentraversart regretting my sayings, you made me realize that at a very early age I also used to observe this way. I just became so familiarized with the new one that I even forgot the other. Haha Anyway, I've been seeing your videos and they are very educational, concise, clear and interesting! Congratulations on your content, greetings from Brazil.

[@ggoannas]

Excellent advice.

[@stephentraversart]

Thanks 😀

[@blackfishbones]

Great tutorial, be good to fix those clip transitions so the audio in the clips line up better, but it’s not a big deal

[@stephentraversart]

Thanks. Yes, I know. I’m trying. 😀

[@jekalambert9412]

I appreciate lines/outlines. Your opinion is a personal "thing". Sort of like the watercolorists who have been convinced black is evil and colors should only be achieved without resorting to black to darken them. It's a style, not a truth.

[@christianiliev3493]

Since I cant imagine the visual information, what I look for are the angles of cirlces/elypses or rectangles for the outline of objects (how low or high they are pointing) is it above the horizon or below? This informs me what visual effect im looking at and there really are only directions in which perspecrive would distort to a smaller angle because when the front plain is facing you you only get a smaller flat plain.

[@christianiliev3493]

And yes I know you can place the vanishing points everywhere on or off the page potentially having any possible distortion.

[@stephentraversart]

If I’ve understood you correctly, you are in this way visualising the 3D form in your mind. An excellent thing to do. 😀

[@stephentraversart]

Although there will line up in the one horizontal line, the eye level, that goes across the scene. 😀

[@christianiliev3493]

@@stephentraversart yeah I look for the top and bottom lines of objects/shapes. Knowing where the horizon line is placed does help too.

[@sallieturner8771]

Wow, super helpful! it's funny while drawing it's what we don't see.

[@stephentraversart]

That’s great Sallie. Observation is such a neglected element of drawing. We can’t draw what we haven’t observed, and it’s harder to observe what we need to see than we think. All the best with your drawing. 😀

[@granitrocky1129]

Stephen I love your videos, but I think you may want to double check your audio when doing cuts. I'm getting weird clipping off of syllables between some lines and it's very distracting. I love the work, however, and I will continue to keep watching.

[@stephentraversart]

Yes, I’ve noticed it too. I video and edit on my phone using the free iMovie app, and some of the edit cuts get a weird buzz sound. I’ve tried deleting and reloading the app a few times. I’m not very IT savvy, and have to keep the whole process fairly simple if I’m to manage it. Of course, some times I mess up what I’m saying so much on camera there’s no tidy way to edit it neatly. I would never have believed I would be doing any of this a few years ago. 😀

[@7775Kevin]

Very helpful thanks

[@stephentraversart]

My pleasure Kevin😀

[@Golden_reds]

This was fantastic. I can see that this is the very issue I have. I am going to apply this traight away. Immediate subscribe too 😊.

[@stephentraversart]

Welcome aboard my channel. I’m glad this was so applicable to you. 😀

[@elipetrou9308]

I use strong line work for illustration but try not to for realism

[@stephentraversart]

In the end, the question is ‘does this line drawn this way create the effect I’m wanting? All the best with your art Eli. 😀

[@gnarthdarkanen7464]

I don't know... This MIGHT help someone... For "stylized" or "cartoon-ish" things, I tend to put my mind-space toward "symbols" more... Drop the details and work with a "minimalist" idea, because foremost, a cartoon is ANIMATED. That means, the artists that do cartoons are creating 30 to 40 images of this thing for every SECOND of film. In the old days, that really WAS all done by hand... SO they had to be Quick and Cheap... and by cheap, I mean both in materials like ink or paint, AND in the time and energy spent by the artist. Just by the math, figure 30 frames (cheaper/older cartoons) per second for an average 3 to 5 minute short, at 60 seconds per minute, so 180 to 300 seconds requires 5400 to 9000 individual works of "art" for just an average cartoon "skit" type short-form. That's a LOT to pay artists to do... and you don't even want to start calculating a full 30 minute program or a 90 to 120 minute "Feature" like "Snow White" or "Wizards"... SO what usually results is a little experimentation, and then a basic form that can be repeatedly and CONSISTENTLY detailed out no more than necessary to "get the point across". A capital letter B can look like a dog if you add the appropriate ears at the top, jut out the lower half and color in a nose, coloring the eyes in the receding upper half, and in short order, anyone gets "dog" at a glance... for example. For anything approaching "realism", however, I get closer to an engineering perspective as much as I study a guide. I almost always start somewhere "in the middle"... AND the easy example is a portrait of a face, where I almost always start at or about the bridge of the nose and the construction of the nose/brow/eye-spaces. Granted, most of my older literature about human anatomy is based on proportions from "eye-lengths" (corner to corner) for the face, and "head-lengths" (chin to crown/peak) for the body... so once I've decided on an eye size, I've practically got the diagram in mind for the entire body, give or take "tolerances"... Designing things more like an engineer might is a fairly solid way to craft the form as you fill in the space, building outward from the relative middle-points and developing your own rough "symbolism" involved in communicating the different surfaces and shapes sloping away from you or toward you, and up or down, relative... I also tend to do my shading, at least in part, as I go, and I'll mix the hatching with "cross hatching" to let two sets of interconnecting and overlapping lines help to define the curvatures of the surfaces with two directions of light and shadow interacting, rather than only one, BUT of course, this also has much to do with the line spacing and thickness to avoid "over-shading" because we don't want a giant "hot mess"... lolz In any case, it seems like I've always (more or less) tackled projects and sketches with a similar attitude to this. I guess I picked it up somewhat instinctively, at least for my more "realistic" work. None the less, it's always nice to see someone ARTICULATE it in such a way as to understand how a technical method "pays off". ;o)

[@stephentraversart]

Thanks. I know there are many artists involved with digital art/animation/backgrounds who follow my channel and I’m sure these thoughts will be helpful 😀

[@claireonlinex]

Form form form, I will try not to forget haha thank you

[@stephentraversart]

Of course line is important, but no one needs to be reminded of that. Have fun with form in your next drawings. 😀

[@camera2painting]

The first example in which you emphasise 2D qualities was drawn quickly to demonstrate the mistake people make. The second, which was supposed to emphasise form, took longer and was more considered as you described what you were looking at. Yet you referred to looking at the shapes, which are 2D. The realistic element of form began when adding tone, which you didn't attempt on the first sketch which is why it was less realistic and 2 dimensional.

[@stephentraversart]

The second versions took longer both because I was talking more as I had more to explain, and because by focusing on form I had more to think about and then to put into a more accurate drawing, all of which takes time. I put more line work on the bird because I wanted to emphasise the form which was guiding my thinking. I didn’t need to do this on the first bird because I was just thinking about outline. But it would have helped make my point if I’d added some flat banding lines on the first bird’s body. I added tone to the back of the windows to emphasise the correct perspective pattern established. But again, if I’d added it to the first drawing as well, it would have emphasised the visual confusion that the line work was already producing. My apologies if I said shape instead of form. I try and catch those sorts of slip ups in the editing. Looks like I slipped up twice there. All the best with your drawing 😀

[@fintux]

Hmm. I've some time ago watched a video by Ian Roberts called "Paint shapes, not things". Do you think the difference is between painting vs. drawing, is it just a different approach? Or am I understanding the approach incorrectly? Of course also he does not talk about silhouettes, but shapes of different color, texture or so.

[@JH-pe3ro]

Every drawing can benefit from using some mixture of contour, measurement, and constructed forms. Paintings build on drawings by adding areas of value, which can also be represented by shapes. What I've noticed is that different styles of drawing will emphasize a different starting point for the observation; if your focus is on making stylized cartoons and abstraction, starting with a blind contour sketch is a great idea because it automatically simplifies what you're looking at - it's fast, it captures a lot of information, and there isn't a lot of decision making. But if you're trying to make it technically accurate to the original photo you may want to use a grid or other measuring devices so that the proportion is locked into place. If you start with the perspective and build a horizon line and perspective grids, you get a feeling of three-dimensional space which helps you build realistic-looking imaginary scenes, but now you have to observe and simplify what you see before you start making the lines, which makes it harder to observe all of the proportions. And you can mix those attributes to make some decisions about what the image is primarily: it's very hard to draw organic objects *only* by using construction, but as Stephen shows with the foliage and the bird, you can aim to keep it in mind during the drawing, while still relying on an outline as a starting point.

[@fintux]

@@JH-pe3ro good points. I still find it interesting that the instructions are kind of opposite: "Stop painting things, paint shapes" but "Stop drawing shapes, draw forms". And even to the point where one says in practise "The medium is 2D, so think in 2D" and one is "The things are 3D, so think in 3D". Now, I get that painting and drawing are very different things, but still. Also some of the drawing courses encourage you to sketch using forms (spheres, cubes, cylinders etc.) and only then drawing the shape around them. Some, on the other hand, teach a method of using reference picture, turning it upside down and drawing really exclusively the shapes, in an effort basically to be able to use vision like a camera. I think one could say that there are multiple ways to approach to do this, and there are no right or wrong ones. Maybe it would be better to communicate these as "If you are struggling with your results not looking good, here's a technique to consider". Though that probably wouldn't make a punchy title for a KZbin video...

[@connie6690]

​@@fintux It took me years to realize that some teachers use a 3D approach and some use a 2D. I use a 3D approach for most of my art work, both drawing and painting. When I get stuck as how to render something I use a 2D approach. Only using a 2D approach for me is not an interesting way to see the world.

[@stephentraversart]

I haven’t seen that video, but I painted in oils for ten years before I did any drawing. And my subjects were mostly tree canopies and Australian wildflowers. I have no doubt that contributed to my focus on form and tone, rather than outline and line. And it seems to have been an effective focus. 😀

[@stephentraversart]

Actually, I think ‘If your drawing technique is disappointing you, try this…! ‘ would be a great KZbin video title. 😀

[@katehenry2718]

You say line is the enemy, yet the better example has line in the same shape. Thinking that a portion is round doesn't change the drawing of the line.

[@stephentraversart]

No, but with greater understanding of the three dimensionality of the underlying form, we have extra information in our thinking as we draw the line. This is particularly helpful when we draw directly in ink, and can’t erase anything. I think I said ‘outline’ is not a good focus. Reducing the object to a silhouette line to be copied is a much more difficult task to do accurately once we are drawing irregular, organic shapes. But this is just the thinking I find helpful. If you’re drawing works well for you another way, stay with it. All the best. 😀

[@kawilsonart]

I think your videos and the information in them is great but I am very distracted by the jumping and slight overlapping in the video and audio. I don’t know weather it is how it is recorded. I have listened to them on several different devices and it happens on each one so I don’t think it has anything to do with my end but I am curious if anyone else has noticed it.

[@stephentraversart]

Yes, a few people including me have noticed it. 😀 The problem is I am a very low-IT older person and I do everything on my iPhone using the free iMovie app. Things are becoming a bit glitchy, which combined with all the mistakes I make during on-camera delivery or voiceovers means lots of edits are required. Perhaps a newer iPhone would help. A few years ago I’d never made a video, but it is suddenly now my life. But I am trying to improve on these issues. In the meantime I hope the info in the videos is helpful enough to compensate. 😀

[@stanwellback]

@@stephentraversart The info definitely is helpful enough to compensate. 👍🏻

[@brianvanderspuy4514]

What I do notice with photos is that it can be extremely difficult to make out the 3D structure from the photo, particularly when it's a photo I did not take myself of a subject I have not personally had eyes on. Also, while cartoon drawings are often flat, the better cartoonists all think in 3D terms, which is why they can draw their subject matter from any angle. Incidentally, I wanted to follow you on Instagram and/or Facebook, but you don't seem to post there anymore? Both your accounts have been inactive for years.

[@stephentraversart]

Thanks for sharing this. Good point about cartoonists. I’ve had a month off Instagram, but a few weeks ago I started posting again. Facebook I really don’t have time to look at any more. @stephentraversart is my Instagram account. 😀

[@artunblock9433]

Useful content

[@stephentraversart]

Excellent. Thanks 😀

[@juicedgoose]

Can you define what is meant by form...Does it just mean the 3 dimensional shape?

[@stephentraversart]

Yes, that’s what I mean. Thanks for clarifying. 😀

[@juicedgoose]

@@stephentraversartThanks Stephen, great video

[@jamesrogers5277]

All artists delude themselves… try telling a pianist his notes all sound alike - except in volume and duration - and watch him gurn and facepull to prove the emotional content and expression…

[@stephentraversart]

No more or less James than the people around them do the same things in whatever context their lives provide. 😀

[@dawnarobertson9577]

“A sort of reality” ! 😂😂😂

[@stephentraversart]

😀😀😀

[@loriwilde3977]

I still don't understand form.

[@stephentraversart]

Think of it as the shape of an object - how it would be if you could turn it around in your hands feeling it. Does this make more sense Lori?