Stethoscope Tips for Newbies from a Nurse

  Рет қаралды 146,845

Kati Kleber, MSN RN

Kati Kleber, MSN RN

Күн бұрын

Пікірлер: 124
@jacobezell5198
@jacobezell5198 3 жыл бұрын
Great info. I'd like to add a bit of advice to anyone going into emergency medicine. Go for the single tube stethoscope designs. Dual tubed stethoscopes work well for clinical settings but in a moving vehicle the tubes can hit each other causing sometimes painful interference noises.
@alexluv2ify
@alexluv2ify 6 жыл бұрын
Loved the two tips at the end: Allowing older patients to use it in order to hear you better and allowing loved ones to listen to their family members heart beat, one last time.
@OldFoolRN
@OldFoolRN 7 жыл бұрын
If you wear your stethoscope draped around your neck with the diaphragm on the left and earpieces on the right, switch sides from time to time. I have old stethoscopes that are permanently shaped like a horseshoe from long term wearing on the same side. If you are using a bell stethoscope you are creating a diaphragm with the underlying skin. You can hear different pitches of sound by varying the pressure on the bell on the skin. Press harder for high pitched sounds like thrills. Try it-it,s really neat
@freshrn
@freshrn 7 жыл бұрын
Great tip! Thanks! :-)
@kdelka81
@kdelka81 6 жыл бұрын
I have a stethoscope that only has one side and is used exactly in this manner. By varying the pressure. I love it. Love my electronic stethoscope as well with the volume control, but its only really needed with a few of my patients.
@heidievans6336
@heidievans6336 4 жыл бұрын
I also have stethoscopes that are permanently curved. Specifically this one duel tube I got in EMT school like the one Kati shows in the video (except mine is in blue lol) but the irony is that even with the abuse I've put it through over the last 10-years and the curve in it, it still works just as good if not better than the brand new Littmann III I just bought. Kind of sad to hang it up, but it's time I think. I won't be getting rid of it of course, I'll use it as a back-up, but just lots of memories lol
@alysha6770
@alysha6770 5 жыл бұрын
These are gr8 tips! Especially the last two at the end. Meaningful and innovative. Thanks Kati! I’m a paramedic student and would definitely use those tips when they’re applicable.
@jacobezell5198
@jacobezell5198 3 жыл бұрын
Thanks for the tip about using it as a improvised hearing aid! 2 years working in EMS. 2 years of yelling to try and communicate with hard of hearing patents. Definitely going to be using that technique now.
@emiluree5277
@emiluree5277 4 жыл бұрын
Thank you for the tips! Just got our little guy a child sized set because he's so fascinated with them at the doctors office. We couldn't hear anything, did a quick turn of the diaphragm, and BAM they work amazing! He's three and wants to listen inside all our bodies in the house and the neighbors cat but it runs away 😂😂
@jacquelinenicole1932
@jacquelinenicole1932 4 жыл бұрын
He's such an adorable little one! It's so amazing to see the little one being very interested in something other than their phones... :((((
@maryrobbins6706
@maryrobbins6706 Жыл бұрын
This was an excellent video !! I am not a nurse, but I needed to use a stethoscope actually on my farm. There are no instructions that come with a stethoscope, and I had no idea that you had to turn it on. 😂 I listen to a couple of other videos, and they never mentioned it. Also the tip on how to put it in your ears. Correctly was very helpful. Thank you so much.
@juansaldarriaga8676
@juansaldarriaga8676 4 жыл бұрын
Thanks for sharing about letting family listen and talking to hard of hearing patients. Very caring!
@vampyremisa
@vampyremisa 4 жыл бұрын
i used to wear mine around my neck but it was very uncomfortable, so i just found that placing the bell in my pocket helps a lot.
@chineseroxs
@chineseroxs 2 жыл бұрын
Thank you for the tips :). I'm a nursing student and I couldn't hear out of my stethoscope all of a sudden. I thought it was broken until I learned that you could turn your gear. I didn't learn that or the hard of hearing tip in school so I'll definitely use it now.
@jeannettdavis493
@jeannettdavis493 4 жыл бұрын
Thank You! I was about to make a stethoscope cover and found you first. Now I'm off to see if I can find a gift certificate for engraving.
@chrisclermont4876
@chrisclermont4876 5 жыл бұрын
"turn your gear"... Very good advice for stethoscopes. great advice of this device! Thank you Kati!
@Ms.Abdulkader
@Ms.Abdulkader 3 жыл бұрын
Which one is more sensitive the 2 tubes or one?
@MarianaElizabethEspo
@MarianaElizabethEspo 7 жыл бұрын
Your cat ears meow killed me in laughter🐈
@freshrn
@freshrn 7 жыл бұрын
LOL you won't forget it now! :-)
@bluestrue
@bluestrue 7 жыл бұрын
Kati Kleber you radiate energy
@aftabshah4492
@aftabshah4492 6 жыл бұрын
Haha funny you
@davidkindy1194
@davidkindy1194 4 жыл бұрын
I thought I had a defective stethoscope but once I turned it was like the off switch had been turned on. Great tips. Thanks
@kellyk.8519
@kellyk.8519 4 ай бұрын
Thanks. Im a student. I have the chunky red one. (But blue). Im having so much trouble trying to do a BP. It like i can't get the pulse, and its super hard to hear. I will have a fiddle with the scope and see if i can get it.
@100PercentOS2
@100PercentOS2 3 жыл бұрын
I just use a cheap stethoscope and I discovered today that I had my ear pieces turned out as much as this nurse does. But I was having trouble hearing the Korotkoff sounds and it dawned on me that my ear pieces were forward too much so a readjusted them until I got the loudest sounds from me tapping on the diaphragm. The ear pieces is position barely forward with a really loud Korotkoff sound. I've been checking my BP since 2006 and I always blamed this on a soft pulse when it was my fault because I didn't have my ear pieces not adjusted quite right. I hate those big clunky stethoscopes with 2 tubes and a double bell. I have one right now but with 1 tube and the double bell and it is really loud. Not near as clunky. But as long as I get a nice loud sound with a cheap CVS one I guess I will continue to use it.
@sageperez2100
@sageperez2100 2 жыл бұрын
Thank you this made my morning and really good advice I will take it to work with me. 💜 I will get mine engraved soon.
@MsGrewe
@MsGrewe 6 жыл бұрын
Thank you. I just got a cheap drug store one to use at home because I'm a mom and not a nurse, and one of my kids has some kind of allergy asthma, and she's really good about telling us when she's struggling to breathe, but she gets kind of confused about it too like a lot of times she's fine and sometimes she's not. I keep taking the kids to the doctors when they don't need to go, with this one, to make sure she's getting enough oxygen. So I thought this and an oximeter will help me better decide how important and urgent a doctor is when she says she is struggling to breathe. So I open it up. And I can't hear out of one side. I messed with it for 20 minutes, decided I was a total idiot, and THANK YOU, now I know how to get it to work.
@marcosbinda639
@marcosbinda639 6 жыл бұрын
Remember always look at her, if she looks sick then you should go to the doctor
@aaaarrmehearties
@aaaarrmehearties 6 жыл бұрын
webjieuyrwf delafuente this person beat me to it. you should always look at her first, i am an RN with asthma and often my pulse oximeter reads 99-100% during an attack, and wheezes are usually audible to the naked ear first. the first thing you will see is her using all these extra muscles (in her neck, looking like shes really working to get the same breaths a normal person would be getting) pursing her lips, "tripod" positioning (leaning over with hands on knees in an attempt to open up the lungs). that will tell you straight away - don't bother listening to her chest, just give her the salbutamol or whatever she has been prescribed for acute attacks. she shouldn't need to go to the doctor every time unless her rescue inhaler isn't working like it normally does
@GinaEcheverryMontes
@GinaEcheverryMontes 3 күн бұрын
Great thanks, greetings from Colombia
@whispercubs1931
@whispercubs1931 7 жыл бұрын
Very informative! I know it is becoming obsolete, but could you do a video going over manual BP?
@freshrn
@freshrn 7 жыл бұрын
That's a great question! I actually do that relatively frequently because when a patient has flipped into atrial fibrillation with RVR, those machines actually don't measure it accurately. I need to buy a manual pressure cuff to show it in a video! Stay tuned, that's a really wonderful idea!
@lauragregg6539
@lauragregg6539 6 жыл бұрын
Just started my nursing. Thank you
@JSWISTN
@JSWISTN Жыл бұрын
Thank you I just bought one this was very helpful
@noahjh847
@noahjh847 4 жыл бұрын
You’re a good teacher :]
@hannahrobinson6748
@hannahrobinson6748 5 жыл бұрын
I liked your video just for that meow lmao just the pick up I needed with exams this week
@nora7372
@nora7372 4 жыл бұрын
I wish i watched this before bying my first stethoscope. I bought one with two tubes, and its actually havier to hold or put it on my neck☹️
@abelzarate3942
@abelzarate3942 5 жыл бұрын
that is a great gesture, the providing a stethoscope to the family... awesome video, tips, and vibe. ... Im a nursing student , currently ... cant wait to graduate. . Keep up the awesome work.
@MrPaulosophy
@MrPaulosophy 5 жыл бұрын
Once I forgot my headphones at home and I was having lunch and music with lunch is practically a must. So I took out my scope and started listening to my music with it because I was in public and I didn't want to be loud. I looked like a total took but goddamn I felt smart.
@freshrn
@freshrn 5 жыл бұрын
BRILLIANT!
@MrPaulosophy
@MrPaulosophy 5 жыл бұрын
@@freshrn haha thank you.
@ebonywhite8539
@ebonywhite8539 4 жыл бұрын
Currently in lockdown due to covid 19 (lab classes cancelled), this vid has made my day 😊
@freshrn
@freshrn 4 жыл бұрын
Ha! Love it!
@smorris281
@smorris281 8 ай бұрын
I have to disagree with you regarding the Sprague-Rappaport. The acoustics are almost on part with a cardiology stethoscope, due to its thicker walled tubing and beefier chest piece. Its a wonderful scope if you see both adult, and peds patients because of the pediatric diaphragm option, plus, its such a classic design.
@cementra2007
@cementra2007 6 жыл бұрын
The last tip was pretty good
@ace38karr
@ace38karr 7 жыл бұрын
Just a quick question for the wonderful nurses out there. How excepting would the nurses in the field be of a middle age man being a nurse? I am strongly considering a career change were I could help people in a direct way and take care of my family.
@freshrn
@freshrn 7 жыл бұрын
1/3 of my nursing school class were guys! I worked on a unit with a lot of men as well. The climate is changing. While it still is a female-dominated field, there are many male registered nurses. Nurses welcome men to their unit with open arms!
@kdelka81
@kdelka81 6 жыл бұрын
Kati Kleber To add, my class had PLENTY students over 40. 6 years after graduating, none of them regret it. We had a mix of 20's, 30's, 40's and 50's. And almost all were parents with at least pt jobs if not FT. I love working alongside colleagues who can bring their own life experience to the table and add to the team!
@lius9902
@lius9902 2 жыл бұрын
The hearing advice was taught in EMT school for us. It was def a surprise haha
@sally-3830
@sally-3830 5 жыл бұрын
Super helpful, thank you! I couldn’t hear so I turned my gear☺️👍🏼
@annaclayton1408
@annaclayton1408 5 жыл бұрын
WOW I'm so glad I came across your channel. I'm not a nurse but in class now to become a CNA 1st. This is a total career change for me from an Executive Assistant and Office Manager. I want to be able to take care of my mom and stepdad in the RIGHT way and have decided to take a class to become certified and work in the field. I had to leave a contractor because u helped me to have a way to memorize something that u would not have with the stethoscope. I love the cat nose ref and if u can 👂🏽 turn ur gear 😂. I'm seriously nervous about the exam and Clinicals coming because of overthinking a question or hell even the answer. Would u please let me know if u have any advice for someone new coming into this field to focus on please? I have subscribed to your channel of course and will be on the lookout for more . I really want to do well at this because it will be of a great benefit to me and my family. Thanks again...especially for your approach to teaching. Hopeful CNA and then LPN etc. 🙏🏽😉
@firstapproacheaworksitewel6774
@firstapproacheaworksitewel6774 4 жыл бұрын
Simply put your great educator. Thanks nurse.
@freshrn
@freshrn 4 жыл бұрын
Thank you so much! I truly appreciate that :-) Thank you for taking the time to let me know, it means a lot to me.
@firstapproacheaworksitewel6774
@firstapproacheaworksitewel6774 4 жыл бұрын
Trust you are safe during these traumatic challenges we face as a nation. My best to family and coworkers.
@Speed001
@Speed001 3 жыл бұрын
Not even in medical anything, but very clear and seems useful.
@leesheajing8777
@leesheajing8777 3 жыл бұрын
Thank you so much!!! Just want you to know that this had really helped me A LOT
@Stusgirl1
@Stusgirl1 5 жыл бұрын
Great video !
@rushaljbr129
@rushaljbr129 5 жыл бұрын
My dad is on ryle's tube. what stetescope is suitable to use after replacement of a new tube? Love your video, easy to understand. thanks a lot. From malaysia
@khwnadianikhorang2897
@khwnadianikhorang2897 5 жыл бұрын
Normally you should be able to check the correct placement of a ryle's tube by any ordinary stethoscope. You don't need a costly stethoscope to be able to hear that unless of course you want to hear, learn & appreciate heart murmers. In that case you better get a Litmann Master Cardiology or Cardiology 4.
@virginiavargas893
@virginiavargas893 5 жыл бұрын
Awesome tips! Ty👍
@jessicamcguire7324
@jessicamcguire7324 6 жыл бұрын
I own a Littman cardiology 3 and I get much better acoustics when the ear pieces are facing the "wrong way." I don't know what to make of this.....thoughts? Could it simply be the shape of my ears?
@khwnadianikhorang2897
@khwnadianikhorang2897 5 жыл бұрын
Either you are holding the stethoscope in the wrong anatomical position or else your ear's anatomy is different from others 😁
@MegaJunebug420
@MegaJunebug420 6 жыл бұрын
Great Tips, love your energy! Meow 😺
@DrMathOfficial
@DrMathOfficial 3 жыл бұрын
This is amazing and wonderful!
@drei000
@drei000 4 жыл бұрын
Great video Which stethoscope do you have? what do you pay attention to when listening?
@freshrn
@freshrn 4 жыл бұрын
I use a Littmann Cardiology Master scope. Going into what I'm listening for would be a it's own video!
@drei000
@drei000 4 жыл бұрын
@@freshrn Thank you thank you can you recommend the stethoscope? I would like to listen to myself. Do you have a tip? Many thanks in advance
@AurelienCarnoy
@AurelienCarnoy 6 жыл бұрын
Adorable personality. So what would you get to listen to pulse of old people? Thank you.
@rhodesmk
@rhodesmk 4 жыл бұрын
Great video...but I have a question. I bought an Omron Sprague Rappaport--type scope, because my heart's been in a-fib since Thanksgiving and I wanted to hear what it sounded like. I cannot hear my own heart no matter which way I turn it, or which bell size I try on the end (it came with a few sizes). I can hear my wife's heart just fine. Why can I not hear my own?
@freshrn
@freshrn 4 жыл бұрын
That's a good question! And it's really hard to answer via online... but my troubleshooting would be listening to other areas of your chest to see if you simply aren't in the right place (like, can you hear air going in and out of your lungs, if you put it on your stomach, can you hear the gurgling of the bowel sounds?). Make sure you're putting it directly on your skin, not over clothing, and you've made sure you don't have other distracting noises in the background also.
@lynnettelock3383
@lynnettelock3383 2 жыл бұрын
I too have the sprague rappaport mdf I can hear the whoosh of my dogs heart murmur but cannot hear my daughters heart or even mine. Don’t get the cats ears mine appear very straight. Even tried my own stomach can’t hear a thing.
@jaybirdy86
@jaybirdy86 6 жыл бұрын
When you you have a new podcast up?
@PrincessBay1996
@PrincessBay1996 7 жыл бұрын
Hi, I am starting nursing school soon and I am looking for a good stethosope to use. I do not want to buy a super pricey one because after graduation I want in pediatrics, so I will have to get different stethosope. Do you have any recommendations? Thank you!
@laraspanjaart9434
@laraspanjaart9434 5 жыл бұрын
Bailey P I got the littman light weight se ll and I love it
@GeorgiaMcL-c7v
@GeorgiaMcL-c7v 9 ай бұрын
ty so much
@Moonsapphire419
@Moonsapphire419 3 жыл бұрын
“Tips on how to use a stethoscope” Me a 14 year old: ah yes that’s what I exactly need, I’ll use it everyday (sarcasm)
@alir3556
@alir3556 4 жыл бұрын
Hi, When I measure my blood pressure, the volume of the sounds decreases when going towards minimum.for example,my minimum stops at 8 but the sound volume decreases at about 10 and it s not as high but still can hear it. Is it normal? Please advise.thanks
@heidievans6336
@heidievans6336 4 жыл бұрын
Are you measuring your own B/P or a family/friend/patient? The reason I ask, is that sometimes it is more difficult to take your own. Anyway, take me with a grain of salt and keep in mind I'm non-active currently but going back to school for nursing now... 10 years ago in EMT-P school I was taught that the sound you hear will diminish as the needle drops and that you should be at the point of just barely being able to hear it when you've achieved your diastolic number. There are little tricks to it, we were required to do b/p's every night so that we would get it... (I took night classes vs. day or morning classes). Initially I hated my teacher for it, but he was 100% right to do that. By the time I graduated his class I could get an on the nose b/p when noone else could. He was a very unorthodox teacher... One such trick, if you're really struggling to hear, because... say you're in a noisy ER or in the back of a bouncy ambulance like I was being trained for... watch the needle. It will begin to bounce for systolic, and will drop off just before your diastolic number. This will give you a ball park if not the actual on the nose numbers.
@alir3556
@alir3556 4 жыл бұрын
@@heidievans6336 thanks
@Rhythmicons
@Rhythmicons 4 жыл бұрын
How do you HOLD it so your fingers don't make noises?
@freshrn
@freshrn 4 жыл бұрын
I hold it on someone's chest in 1 of 2 ways: I either hold it like a pencil against their chest or I have the bell in between my first and second fingers. Either way, I don't have my fingers touching the patients chest and they are stationary against the bell as to not make any other sounds.
@Rhythmicons
@Rhythmicons 4 жыл бұрын
@@freshrn Thanks for this. I still think it takes some practice because I can hear all sorts of extraneous noises from the joints in my fingers and things that I guess one filters out. If you are a practicing nurse, I hope like hell that you keep yourself safe from the virus and that you and your loved ones are and remain free of it. Thanks again.
@patrickd5614
@patrickd5614 7 жыл бұрын
I love how you snuck in the Parks and Rec reference lol.
@aaaarrmehearties
@aaaarrmehearties 6 жыл бұрын
Patrick D i've watched this three times trying to find the reference and i have no idea what it is
@ryanharris4066
@ryanharris4066 4 жыл бұрын
You are so funny! Thank you!!!
@707SonomaComa
@707SonomaComa 7 жыл бұрын
My girlfriend works at a skilled nursing facility. Most of her patients are elderly and rather frail. What would be the best stethoscope for taking blood pressure manually? I am going to get her a Littmann Cardiology stethoscope. Would the Master Cardiology Stethoscope with a single sided 2 inch, 3.2 Ounce chestpiece work better than a Littmann Cardiology IV with a double sided 1.3 & 1.7 inch, 3.1 Ounce chestpiece.
@samuelmensah9486
@samuelmensah9486 3 жыл бұрын
Mlm
@cathlynmaguila3750
@cathlynmaguila3750 5 жыл бұрын
Hi I have a problem with my Classic III Littmann stethoscope I really have a hard time twisting the gear can you give me some advice what to do?? 😢😢
@freshrn
@freshrn 5 жыл бұрын
Some actually don't turn - are you sure it's one that does? If not, I would consider bringing it back to where you got it. It should very easily turn.
@TrebleMuave
@TrebleMuave 4 жыл бұрын
how to clean stethoscope?
@freshrn
@freshrn 4 жыл бұрын
I would use the wipes they have at the hospital for cleaning equipment!
@TheLastPharm
@TheLastPharm 5 жыл бұрын
Kati- I think you're absolutely adorable; thanks for the tips!
@ariyellemalone
@ariyellemalone 3 жыл бұрын
Awesome
@patriciacurtis7448
@patriciacurtis7448 6 жыл бұрын
Cool 🤗
@laurae.gutierrez5475
@laurae.gutierrez5475 5 жыл бұрын
Meow! 😂😂😂 Cat Ears! 😎
@gregbeckykirchberg5992
@gregbeckykirchberg5992 3 жыл бұрын
Do you wash your pockets and or collar between patients. Stethoscope covers no different.
@freshrn
@freshrn 3 жыл бұрын
I don't put my pocket or neck physically on my patient's chest. The only thing that touch them are things that are physically washed or disposed of as to not go from patient to patient between use - like my hands, gloves, alcohol wipes, or scope. If I can't wash the cover in between patients, it's not appropriate to bring it from room to room and touch patients with it.
@bilalvirani6825
@bilalvirani6825 3 жыл бұрын
"If you can't hear turn your gear" Kati Kleber
@peachesandcream.2612
@peachesandcream.2612 6 жыл бұрын
Ask the loved ones of a patient who is dying if they want to listen to their heartbeat?! I don't think the doctor would agree with that!
@laraspanjaart9434
@laraspanjaart9434 5 жыл бұрын
Peaches And Cream. Why would you ask the doctor this? It’s emotional value if you can hear your loved ones heartbeat before they pass away... as a nurse myself I wouldn’t check this with the doctor
@peachesandcream.2612
@peachesandcream.2612 5 жыл бұрын
Lara Spanjaart - Nurses should check everything with the doctor first because they are the ones who are in charge! Asking someone if they want to listen to their loved one's heart beat as they pass away is just weird and creepy - that is so typical of a nurse taking matters into their own hands! I am sure that the family don't really want that, but are just being polite!
@annaclayton1408
@annaclayton1408 5 жыл бұрын
Peaches And Cream. I think it's such an awesome important gesture to be offered to the family. THAT is called having feelings and compassion. She wouldn't be saying to the family...here look at their medical records, he/she is letting the family STILL be as close as they can and have something to remember before they pass...after all it's still their family! 🤷🏽‍♀️
@freshrn
@freshrn 5 жыл бұрын
Just curious why not? They're leaving this earth and it could be profoundly meaningful to them. If not, they could say no and no harm done. I wouldn't check with a physician and honestly if I did I'm pretty sure they said, "And why are you asking me for permission?"
@freshrn
@freshrn 5 жыл бұрын
That may be your opinion/experience, but hospice nurses who care for dying patients every day would beg to differ whether or not that's "weird" - whether or not it's weird, I'll never find out if it's meaningful to someone if I don't ask. You can use your emotional intelligence to gauge the situation. I've seen family members rest their head on their loved ones chest as their heart rate begins to decline. In that instance, I would say that would be really meaningful to that person to clearly hear their heartbeat. Now if you have people who stay across the room, don't want to touch the dying patient, and are very disconnected - then you could use your emotional intelligence to guide your actions otherwise.
@roseroyalty4156
@roseroyalty4156 4 жыл бұрын
Look like a ❤
@vladimirprotein6637
@vladimirprotein6637 5 жыл бұрын
Cat ears,🤣🤣🤣🤣
@Ladybird22373
@Ladybird22373 10 ай бұрын
Get on with it sweetie 🤣
@dotdashYTP
@dotdashYTP 5 жыл бұрын
meow
@ncwayneeric
@ncwayneeric 2 жыл бұрын
Meow
@christiangrey6388
@christiangrey6388 7 жыл бұрын
Cute but much too lung though
@Siemianowicee
@Siemianowicee 6 жыл бұрын
Write all what you said on paper and then go through it, removing all the adjectives and other unnecessary stuff and READ your notes while pointing to the device which should have a plain background and get a better light. Thank you.
@christineprasad1547
@christineprasad1547 6 жыл бұрын
Siemianowicee she did really well as it is. Super informative and to the point..don’t understand what you’re on about haha
@peachesandcream.2612
@peachesandcream.2612 5 жыл бұрын
Why do nurses need stethoscopes? That is the doctor's job!
@blank3115
@blank3115 5 жыл бұрын
LOL really? Wow.
@Lisa_RNHealthHub
@Lisa_RNHealthHub 5 жыл бұрын
Annoying cat meow
@freshrn
@freshrn 5 жыл бұрын
Thanks!
@simplyshanbrown3684
@simplyshanbrown3684 3 жыл бұрын
@@freshrn 😄😄
@ilyab5673
@ilyab5673 Жыл бұрын
What are the two sides of the bell used for? I know the big one is for the heart, but what if the small side?
@freshrn
@freshrn Жыл бұрын
the smaller side is called the bell and used to detect lower frequency tones, like a murmur. You'd use the larger side (diaphragm) normally and if you think you hear something lower that you want to hear better, you'd use the other side
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