Steve Keen: "On the Origins of Energy Blindness"

Steve Keen: "On the Origins of Energy Blindness" | The Great Simplification

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@dylanthomas12321 9 ай бұрын

Nate, I've watched many of your podcasts and they're so intellectually energizing, pun intended. But this one, it was like being in graduate school again, and I'm 70. Thank you.

@AlanDavidDoane 10 ай бұрын

This video should be watched by everyone, everywhere. How Keen is able to explain in (mostly) plain language how the human race got here to the verge of collapse is absolutely incredible. Thank you Nate and Prof. Keen for this enlightening discussion.

@Santi-rd7jf 9 ай бұрын

What do you mean plain language bro. Academia is so disconnected to the reality of the common people. You gotta have a degree in economics to follow what he is saying for more than 5 minutes. BTW I like Keen.

@alexnosek1066 9 ай бұрын

Yeah, this isn't the most accessible content. No disrespect to anyone involved, but it isn't for "everyone, everywhere".

@KoDeMondo 9 ай бұрын

Keen is very good at talking fast and pass it on through different and difficulty concept so the narrative is becoming difficult to digest

@testpattern098765432 9 ай бұрын

@@Santi-rd7jfI can’t believe that it takes such an academic argument to state the obvious.

@achenarmyst2156 10 ай бұрын

I am just blown away. This was one of the most eye opening conversations I ever had the pleasure to listen to. And this is definitely not another daft conspiracy theory, it is stone cold natural science. I hope that I am still alive when Steve Keen receives the Nobel Prize for economics. He will be the most deserving candidate in the history of this somewhat gloomy award.

@KoDeMondo 9 ай бұрын

In Italy you can find plenty who explain it better...

@ChrisSmith-bh2hg 9 ай бұрын

Keen has ridiculed the so called "Noble Prize" in Economics. The whole thing is highly politicized for the benefit of big bankers.

@Larimerst 10 ай бұрын

Wow!. Awesome interview. Keen has moved so far ahead that doesn't even stoop to address the obvious fallacies of conventional economics - the fictions of infinite growth and the neutrality of money - as he ratchets our understanding to an entirely new level. Many Thanks!

@jenniferl8714 10 ай бұрын

@@GhostOnTheHalfShellthanks!

@Alex_Plante 9 ай бұрын

He wrote a brilliant book called Debunking Economics around 15 years ago, and supplementary information from his course lectures has been posted to his KZbin channel called ProfSteveKeen or something like that (if you Google his name it should come up).

@dylanthomas12321 9 ай бұрын

@@GhostOnTheHalfShell thanks so much. I was just about to search. Kudos.

@hogey74 18 күн бұрын

Gents thanks for this. It's an example for me of the mind expanding potential of the internet. I came to it after Steve was mentioned in a decouple podcast. I can highly recommend Steve's talk with Lex Fridman.

@daniel-bertrand 10 ай бұрын

This person deserves the Nobel prize in economics.

@mateusznazarczuk 9 ай бұрын

This is not even Nobel Prize, it's Bank of Sweden Memorial Prize, with the name being hijacked from Nobel. Original Nobel Prize was awarded in 5 categories and economics was not one of them. But Keen will never win this prize, because he works outside of mainstream and constantly berates both the prize and its' recipients and also mainstream economic ideas. It would be them shooting themselves in the foot to award it to him.

@Skunk106 9 ай бұрын

I discovered Steve Keen via the anti estab Max Keiser and his mercurial Keiser Report. The episodes always went way to fast when Steve was on. He gets it and lays it out like very few can and he's got solid evidence to back this work. Thanks for this long form interview Nate!

@TennesseeJed 10 ай бұрын

Steve Keen is brilliant, thanks Nate.

@AlanDavidDoane 10 ай бұрын

Hi, Jed!

@TennesseeJed 10 ай бұрын

@@AlanDavidDoane hello Alan!

@DaveOxfordCookingWithStarlight 4 ай бұрын

'A little shell-shocked ..' is an understatement, Nate! I've always thought it was self-evident that energy underpins everything, but I had no idea that economists had failed to realise this. Thank you for this mind-boggling interview.

@john1boggity56 10 ай бұрын

This is the pinnacle of all your podcasts Nate. Truly brilliant!!!!!

@treefrog3349 10 ай бұрын

This is a story of how self-serving rationale, rather than truly objective analysis, creeped and seeped into what we now call neoliberal economics. Human beings themselves became merely an "input" - rather than the focus - of human endeavor. The collective well-being of the whole human "enterprise" has been relegated to the interests of the monied few. Greed overwhelms common sense, justice, and fair play. We have created the source of our own demise by ignoring the lessons we were all taught in our schools and churches. Welcome to the 21st Century!

@johncarter1150 10 ай бұрын

Your psyche is the victim of the broken system, your perceived understanding is base delusion, LOL!

@LittleOrla 10 ай бұрын

You nailed it.

@biggriz2211 9 ай бұрын

Yes. But burning fossil fuels increase life on earth by restoring the CO2 levels. CO2 is life.

@bunsw2070 9 ай бұрын

These guys believe in global warming, the most nonsensical and easily debunked idea ever. And he talks like James Hansen knows what he's talking about. Hansen predicted in 1989 that the worlds coastal cities would be under water by year 2000. Know everything and understand nothing. This is one of the main problems with big brains. They know intuitively that they aren't allowed to question the gospel of other disciplines. So debunk your own field but fall for what is obviously idiotic. 1.5 degrees warmer next summer? I hope so. It's getting bloody cold the last 10 years.

@roderickmoore3915 9 ай бұрын

@@LittleOrlaa😊

@rgsteinman4842 9 ай бұрын

Brilliant! Brilliant! "Output is fundamentally NRG transformed into a useful form." That is, NRG is the input into L and K. I got my PhD in Econ nearly 30 yrs ago - It was all about factors of production receiving their Marginal Product = a complete absence of NRG in describing wealth and productivity. Keen's clear thinking insight, in combination with Kate Raworth's Doughnut Economics, forms the foundation of an awakened Ecological Economics. Thank you for this fantastic conversation!!

@christopherharrison2987 Ай бұрын

I've been following Steve Keen's work for over a decade now and he never ceases to completely grab my attention while discussing economics at a high level, and introduces me to things I didn't know previously.

@michlwezenngraon7487 10 ай бұрын

Awesome, awesome, awesome! The plain truth about energy has finally reached KZbin in plain(-ish) English! Alleluyah!

@carolspencer6915 10 ай бұрын

Good afternoon Nate and Steve Again truly grateful for you two people, certainly from my very own professional perspective. This platform over the past turbulent few years, in which the same crazy situation remains. Saddening really, however your shared work remains a source for learning, of aspiration and knowing. So much sensemaking, incredible. Sanity brain gym, indeed. Thankyou. Etc, etc etc.😀 💜

@2pintsofcremedementh 9 ай бұрын

I clicked on this expecting full "wu", but instead learnt about a school of thought as far from wu as possible. "Energy blindness" sounds like a very esoteric phenomenon, which probably says something about the extent to which the role of energy is neglected in the current economic paradigm. Thanks for the eye-opening conversation!

@RodBarkerdigitalmediablog 10 ай бұрын

Thank you Nate and Steve for this discussion / lesson on the history of nonsense economics. I'm not surprised that previous economists have been awarded Nobel Prizes for imagining fantasy formula that enshrine the ideals of those with power and control.

@liamhickey359 9 ай бұрын

Useful idiots like Greenspan, Bernanke, Geitner springs to mind.

@brucethomas471 9 ай бұрын

When I was a kid, we had a red Corvair, but were not well off enough to ever fly anywhere. And it never even crossed my mind that driving a car caused a problem. I used to brag that I've driven in 46 states, from my home state, Delaware, to Mt Champlain in Maine, to the south flank of Mt Rainier, with many stops in Yellowstone, to San Francisco, San Diego, Austin, and Key West and etc.. Never crossed my mind how energy blind I was. No one ever talked about it. I knew I was burning gas, but in all my life, I had no idea that a gallon of gas weighing 6 pounds, making 20 pounds of CO2, would have any consequence. But did I get this right? .. I've learned that all in all, that's more CO2 in the air from all of us burning gas (and other hydrocarbons) than the physical objects, including cars, that we have made. That just blows my mind. If it wasn't colorless, we can only guess how dark the atmosphere would be. I was blind, but now I see. I've cut my carbon footprint to the bone. But what's done is done. Thanks for helping me understand my (albeit) small part in our world's predicament. I am humbled and changed.

@paulkillinger5915 9 ай бұрын

Your journey proved two things.. That Ralph Nader was wrong about the reliability of Corvairs. And that CO2, which today accounts for 4/10th's of 1% our atmosphere, hasn't killed us yet.

@paulkillinger5915 9 ай бұрын

And in fact, there are a lot more people alive today than there were then precisely because of it..

@goodnatureart 5 ай бұрын

solid eye opening conversation with you and Steve Keen, Michael Every. Thanks Nate!

@donmc1950 10 ай бұрын

Being an engineer I can relate to energy based economics. The problem as I see it is how to factor future fossil fuel depletion into present day economic decisions. The 1956 Frank Capra movie " Our Mr Sun" forecasted our future as fossil fuels become scarce and more expensive, a middle ages based economy. An energy based economic view is outlined in Georgescu-Roegens book The entropy law and the economic process, 1971, Harvard university Press.

@brucethomas471 9 ай бұрын

Good info, thanks.

@anngodfrey612 10 ай бұрын

Have been watching Keen for a number of years now partly because as a kiwi I like his Aussie no bullshit approach and cos the layman's parts resonate so well. And as well he has a certain predictive ability!

@wvhaugen 9 ай бұрын

Okay, second comment now that I have finished listening to the podcast - which was great by the way. In Keen's ballpark example of manual labor producing 100 watts from an input of 200 watts for a 50% return AND a machine producing a lower percentage than a human, a big insight was glossed over. This is the intrinsic efficiency of the human organism. As an example, in 2023 I grew a substantial amount of food (2425 pounds = 633,286 kilocalories) with a small amount of labor (683 hours = 136,600 kilocalories) and 247,034 kilocalories of fuel. This is an EROI of 1.65:1. Note that this includes fuel for weed-whacking and planting cover crops and green manures. Compare this to industrial agriculture which uses 10-12 kilocalories of fuel to produce 1 kilocalorie of food. Also consider that I am now retired and am just keeping my hand in. I used to get an EROI of 3.5:1 when I was a market gardener. Another point that was just glossed over is Keen's recognition that we have changed the game by throwing cheap oil energy at any and all problems for the last 150 years. Instead of solving our problems culturally, we substituted cheap oil energy for culture. Now we have lost the ability to adapt culturally and so we are increasingly subject to the laws of physics WITHOUT the buffer of culture. The cultural buffer that not only defines us as humans but has constituted our social environment for over two million years. The buffer is still there in part, but it as if our baby blanket of culture has become threadbare.

@barrycarter8276 10 ай бұрын

Hi Nate, wouldn’t claim to have understood much of the first half of your discussion with Steve Keen. Was formally a Power and Controls Engineer, I’ve always understood the situation described in the second half of the conversation regarding energy inputs, outputs (and entropy). Always said: engineers can do miracles, but the impossible might take a little longer, and that there is no such thing as a problem, only opportunities. But then who wants to listen to engineers, we do as we’re told, limited only by accountants and economists. The future for those that will live long enough isn’t looking good with signs of “ The Great Simplification. Keep these discussions coming Nate🤔

@ideafood4U 10 ай бұрын

Great interview. Steve Keen is awesome. I first read about the Physiocrats in "The Value of Everything," by Mariana Mazzucato - another insightful economics historian. Beyond economics and biology, physics points to everything being energy. We need electrons to keep spinning.

@elliottmcintyre9092 10 ай бұрын

I am the typical colloquial layman Australian male, the information Steve provides makes so much sense. The academics who argue have cognitive dissonance. Colloquially in Australia these academics would be called F$&kwits.

@antonyjh1234 10 ай бұрын

No typical Australian male use the term colloquial or layman.

@john1boggity56 10 ай бұрын

Or cognitive dissonance :)@@antonyjh1234

@djmadcoins2182 10 ай бұрын

@@antonyjh1234haha too right!

@paulscholes54 10 ай бұрын

Excellent stuff - I had to keep reminding myself to breathe! My takeaway is Steve's profound academic observation on the traditional economist's view of energy, ie that it has almost no role in production, which he says is "complete bollocks".👏👏👏

@tozobozo4142 9 ай бұрын

Amazing podcast. Been a student of this stuff for some 20 years and this is the sort of premium meat my cranial potato craves. Thanks.

@lynnlavoy6778 10 ай бұрын

Wow, mind blown! I recently have been writing to anyone who will listen about saving the salmon population in the lower 48. Breaching dams are such a "micdrop" even a willingness to see the problem differently to save the sockeye is considered "taboo" . All the waste needs to be optimized. Thanks!

@Lyra0966 9 ай бұрын

Good on you. Derrick Jensen will definitely be approving of your efforts!

@lynnlavoy6778 9 ай бұрын

@Lyra0966 lol, no I am a Randell Carlson girl. I just love listening to both sides of the argument. I recognize I am a ancient artifact who cares about truth, that is why wisdom is my grail.

@FREEAGAIN432 9 ай бұрын

Epic convo. Very insightful and revealing. Thank you Steve and Nate. Activists are DIALING IT UP! Lets do this friends.

@vilhelmgrasbonde 15 күн бұрын

Fascinating talk. I’m amazed how previous economic models have missed this as it is so apparent within farming and agriculture that the increase in productivity is not due to more labour but instead energy being fed through bigger and more effective machines. How obvious can it be?!?

@jonathanrider4417 10 ай бұрын

Another great interview! Thanks Nate and Steve! I will look at your previous segments with Steve.

@vsotofrances 10 ай бұрын

Good book. The second law of economics. Good interview. The most important statement in 1:20:00

@ouimetco 10 ай бұрын

It’s more like “the great edufication” Another great lecture Nate. Cheers

@stevehutt2371 10 ай бұрын

Absolutely awesome gentleman. Thank-you. Steve should be advising presidents and politicians. Energy bindness IS the problem that underlies the confusion at the root of so much angst, from the worker all the way up to international politics. Like the three legs of a stool energy, capital, and labor lift up the human condition. Using the leverage of tech, resources, and financial dicipline, the world could be made a much richer place for all.

@carl-Sp 10 ай бұрын

Loved this. I’m now poring over my high school memories of physics and economics. Economics never sat quite right and now I know why. Looking forward to throwing Optimus bot and 100% solar into the discussion. The end of fossils is possible. Lucky, because also essential.

@cal48koho 10 ай бұрын

incredibly valuable interview and explanation of how this whole flawed understanding came about of how Labor, capital, Energy, technology interact!!! When will this insight ever get in to the brains of the knuckleheads in academia and government???

@NickGj-k7v 9 ай бұрын

Finally one Economist who understand and develop further the Economy on all complexities, including and energy on different forms. Happy to hear that Steve Keen as economist of 20 century and 21 century advance further the science of economy by considering evolution from Adam Smith to Karl Marks and others. Modern economy without Karl Marks lead on misunderstanding. The energy certainly play a key role on economy, but all resources have importance, without all resources, from land and water, to minerals including energy resources, and on addition to all these and Human Resources and human energy and intelligence, the developed society does not exist. Happy to hear for the NEW MANIFESTO about economy.

@vincentkosik403 10 ай бұрын

Another stellar discussion, thank you

@PaulHigginbothamSr 6 ай бұрын

Thank you Nate for excellent videos. My poor pup has bone cancer and to get my mind off it with good videos helps me. Thanks

@tomschuelke7955 9 ай бұрын

Difficult to follow on english. But once again its mezmerizing. Your work Nath Haeagens and your interview partner in my opinion are the pinacle of th best science we have and we should listen to..

@Pappaous 10 ай бұрын

You would think social media and technology would've solved this by now. I have been saying this since 1996, coming from the Peak Oil perspective. Thank you, Professor, for putting this into an academic context. {I miss Michael Ruppert.}

@personzorz 9 ай бұрын

Social media is a destructive force. I work in microbiology, and if there's one thing I can tell you from my time in the field, it's that the microbial communities that support cooperation and interesting structure have spatial structure where individuals interact more strongly with their neighbors. The way you destroy cooperation and structure is creating a well-mixed system where every individual interacts equally strongly with every other individual. Such systems become overwhelmed with parasites and antagonistic interactions and viruses. That describes all social media to a T.

@martinmtweedale286 10 ай бұрын

I'm totally in agreement with Keen's conclusions about the nefarious role classical and neo-classical economics has played in our predicament. I think the origins of the wrong turn could be explained more simply by noting the distinction between use-value and exchange-value, which Smith, Ricardo, and Marx all emphasize. The physiocrats can be seen as interested in use value, i.e., the actual usefulness of what gets produced and sent to market. Here soil and sunlight (i.e., energy) play a tremendously significant role. But Smith was mainly interested in exchange value, i.e., how much power a product has to purchase other goods and services on the market. The exchange-value of a product can be way out of line with its use-value. The study of political economy after Smith became devoted to how the former rather than the latter is created. In that study energy just appears as one of the costs of production and its value is just what it takes to purchase it on the market. Its importance to production varies directly with the quantity of it required and its purchase price per unit volume. The cheaper energy becomes the less important it is for an economist solely interested in exchange-value. Hence in the age of cheap energy (which we are now leaving) economists did not see it as of much importance. Of course, someone who is interested in the use-value of what the economy produces would see it as completely fundamental. (On the history of the ideological of the roots of our predicament, including neoclassical economics, I've written a book: Making Wonderful: Ideological Roots of Our Eco-Catastrophe, published by the University of Alberta Press, which you might want to take a look at.)

@joegithler 10 ай бұрын

Economists throwing shade is my favorite 😂 I wish there was still a safe place for them to say what they actually think anonymously outside of politics in the job market. People are waking up to the reality of capital choosing scientists post hoc like big tobacco. This is especially true in economics.

@jjuniper274 10 ай бұрын

Ohh happy day!! Loved the last one. Thank you in advance for helping me understand so many things.

@coweatsman 10 ай бұрын

I will have to rewatch this episode to comprehend some of the 90% I did not absorb from the first listening.

@clivepierce1816 9 ай бұрын

A story of staggering ignorance. As a retired atmospheric scientist I have always been deeply sceptical of economic modelling and this reinforces my position. The words of the physicist, C.P. Snow, spring to mind - “A good many times I have been present at gatherings of people who, by the standards of the traditional culture, are thought highly educated and who have with considerable gusto been expressing their incredulity at the illiteracy of scientists. Once or twice I have been provoked and have asked the company how many of them could describe the Second Law of Thermodynamics. The response was cold: it was also negative. Yet I was asking something which is about the scientific equivalent of: 'Have you read a work of Shakespeare's?' I now believe that if I had asked an even simpler question - such as, What do you mean by mass, or acceleration, which is the scientific equivalent of saying, 'Can you read?' - not more than one in ten of the highly educated would have felt that I was speaking the same language. So the great edifice of modern physics goes up, and the majority of the cleverest people in the western world have about as much insight into it as their Neolithic ancestors would have had.”