Did Captain Janeway Actually Murder Tuvix?

[@CaptainAndy]

The problem with making a show like Voyager episodic is that the underlying premise is that of a journey. A journey implies continuity and change.

[@tlpineapple1]

You can do an episodic series with a serial story. The overall aspect of DS9 os a grest example within the star trek universe.

[@nickmarsala3787]

What do you mean episodic?

[@jonathonmcknight1416]

​@nickmarsala3787 Think TNG, with the majority of the episodes being self-contained. There are arcs and longer stories, but they're subtle, and things from one episode doesn't really get referenced most of the time later on. That formula for storytelling worked perfectly for TNG. Like mentioned, DS9 was a bit more balanced the other way. Voyager...not so much. Which would be fine if the premise was similar to TNG, but it just doesn't work for the story that Voyager was claiming to tell.

[@ewarrior9776]

​@@tlpineapple1 DS 9 was broadcast when we all started binging DVDs. The show was a hybrid. It was partly episodic but it also had several story arcs.

[@sprockkets]

​@@ewarrior9776ds9 had only one season when dvds existed

[@TightPantsJack]

The way “Tuvix" fails to resonate throughout the rest of Voyager reminds me of the TNG episode “The Mind's Eye," where Geordi undergoes brainwashing by Romulans to become a sleeper assassin. That episode ends with Troi literally saying that it will take a “very, very long time" for him to even cope with such a horrific ordeal. Next episode; Data gets a girlfriend and no one (including LaForge) ever gives a shit about that time Geordi almost murdered a guy.

[@Tareltonlives]

People regularly go through horrible trauma and it's barely remembered or even acknowledged.

[@marcustulliuscicero9512]

Or when O'Brien was tortured and tried to kill himself and was fine the next episode.

[@AdamBlack]

Yeah. Shives hates how little consequence there was for Voyager. But its equally true of next gen, and much of ds9. But half of voyager had serious character growth ( not Captain , chakote, tuvok, and kim ) but dr, seska, 7 of9, pixie chick, & token klingon . and even borg kids , and Q . half the cast gets real arcs. No growth or consequences for anyone else.

[@creditsunknown7974]

Or the time the Doctor had a mental breakdown, willing to commit suicide, discovering the pain of being conscious and how he dosent want that horrible pain, and we get to the ending where we see the lowest of the doctor, not anger, not pain, just contemplation at if he can get better than the pain and the trauma. And next episode he's like: IM THE HOLOGRAPHIC PRESIDENT YIPPPPEEE

[@EdgardoCervantesP]

@@AdamBlackYeah, Janeway will die on those 2 hills: 1) #TuvixMustDie 2) Harry will never get a promotion. When Prodigy Season 2 rolls around, Harry Kim better be a Captain. For reals, none of that Voyager S1/S2 "alternate timeline" BS. I want Star Trek Online Harry Kim on Prodigy. Full stop.

[@MahraiZiller]

“Hate is far too precious a currency to be spent so impetuously” would make a great t-shirt 🤣

[@jamesanthony5874]

Right up there with "No tears, please. It's a waste of good suffering."

[@gamefreak3072]

i'd buy that for a dollar

[@qsquared8833]

It'd also make a great Klingon catch phrase when going up against kirk

[@ComradePhoenix]

I'm gonna make that my response whenever people I dislike or disagree with say I hate them.

[@michaeledmunds7266]

Unfortunately some people have far too much to spend

[@futureravenable]

Picard: Starfleet was founded to seek out new life. Well, there it sits! Janeway: Yeah screw that I'm killing it

[@joshuacox534]

Janeway had also already threatened to delete the Doctor, hadn't she? Maybe the Doctor stepped aside because Janeway would kill him too.

[@schoolhomevrtechnologyassi6286]

Killing it, After MATING WITH IT...

[@twenty-fifth420]

@@joshuacox534 I like voyager more then the usual comment section I swear, but that was such a huge blind spot for Janeway. Imagine the time when the Borg are in a losing war and she forces the doctor to work on a weapon and basically bluffs the borg to "delete his program, but it won't 'come to that'." And I am like "How do you know that? What if the Borg can assimilate holograms just none of us have seen it?" But the moment you are refering too iirc is a bit later, near the end of season 3. This was still around the time Kes was on board and she left literally the last episode after the Borg battle to...I guess become a psychic goddess? It really was unclear. Anyway, Janeway killed Tuvix and the doctor was complicit because she arguably has the authority to delete his program. And at least Neelix can provide her coffee rather then sound medical and ethical advice.

[@atsi33]

@@twenty-fifth420 i

[@paulsmart4672]

Also, the time Janeway murdered that clown. I mean, the clown had it coming. But there was extreme prejudice there. She was *very* satisfied with its death.

[@xXImikoXx]

Kes talked Janeway ultimately into murdering Tuvix because she wanted Neelix back, and then she broke up with Neelix, and nobody ever wants to talk about it. 🤐

[@shayneoneill1506]

@@jatmo6991 by ending a better dudes life.

[@shayneoneill1506]

Reminder that Kes was basically an infant.

[@anotherartfuldodger]

@@shayneoneill1506 and by giving him a lung

[@CrazyManwich]

How is it murder? Tuvix was an amalgamation of two different people through an accident. Tuvix is not like a child where it is an entity separate from the parents but rather both existing in a single body. Separating those two entities does not kill Tuvix, but he now just exists in two bodies.

[@tlpineapple1]

@@CrazyManwich Because Tuvix is its own entity, with his own dreams, aspirations, and wishes. Certainly he does suffer from issues related to the amalgamation of the 2 previous entities, but as time progresses he develops his own unique personality that is different from the sum of his parts. You youreself dont refer to Tuvix as they or them indicating multiple entities, but as the singular "he" or by his name, recognizing that he is something else besides atuvok and Nelix. Even if we accept that this amalgamation is not a seperate entity, which it is, that brings some serious consequences to the Trill and their symbiots. The entire episode where Jadzia Dax is on trial for the crime of Kerzon Dax would be irrelevant.

[@patriciabristow-johnson5951]

One of my least favorite things about that episode was we never got to hear Tuvok and Neelix reflecting on the experience. While I was watching it, I was fully expecting the end to have a scene where Tuvok and Neelix are in the mess hall late at night reflecting on it, and having a certain strange yet deep solidarity from being the only ones to have had this experience. I wanted to see how glad they were to be separated, but how they both felt like the experience taught them more about each-other and themselves, and helped them empathize with each-other. Without a scene like that, the episode truly felt incomplete. And thinking back on it, it's infuriating because there's all this talk of what Tuvok and Neelix would have wanted, and this idea of Janeway supposedly advocating for them, but *we never actually get to see what they wanted! Or how they felt about the whole thing! We never actually get to hear it from them!* For all we know, they would've actually preferred to have stayed as Tuvix since...y'know...they *were* Tuvix, who unilaterally claimed at the time that he would prefer to stay as he was. We never get to know!

[@sharzah1]

Adding THAT would've made it a better ep.

[@AdamBlack]

So reading the comments yours is the first good take ive read. Every other trekkie wants a cheap moral cop out where the plot makes the choices unimportant. I agree with you for focusing on the agency & mental experience of the ppl who were erased & marginalized. It would make it rhyme. I also want tuvok to feel horror dread & shame over the merge. I want Neelix to remember the ease tuvix had at his death and the horror that Tuvix would be next. I want our characters to feel the moral complexity of the episode from their unique post mortem & that the crew saved them at the expense of a friend. There is a whole other episode to unpact this and maybe tuvok does minmelds with neelix to revive him in some form . tuvix still exists on a hallodeck. But turns evil escapes the ship.

[@joearnold6881]

None of that would apply. They weren’t around. Tuvix wasn’t both of them floating around inside one body, experiencing everything. Tuvix was a single new individual made up of both of them He died. They don’t get his memories.

[@patriciabristow-johnson5951]

@joe Arnold Woah! Holy shit that's such a fascinating take on it! I feel like the episode would still be better if we got a scene with Tuvok and Neelix at the end though. (Even just to confirm which theory is correct)

[@joearnold6881]

@@patriciabristow-johnson5951 oh I totally agree. We def needed their take on what happened. Even though, since it’s established he’s a new, unique individual, I don’t think they’d have Tuvix’ memories (is that how you do the possessive form of “Tuvix”?? 🤷), the thing still happened to _them._ Nothing they said would have made Janeway less of a monster and the rest of the crew less cowards, but at least we’d have gotten _something_

[@thescifiZipacna]

“The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few” It’s meant to be a philosophy of self-sacrifice - you’re the few - but it can so easily be flipped on its head, as it is in this episode - where the many, Janeway & the Voyager crew, trample on the rights of the few (or the one), Tuvix.

[@dawnmcauley6411]

It really fails in the message as well though. They didn't *need* Tuvoc or Neelix. Tuvix was able to preform all the duties of Tuvoc Voyager as a ship needed and I think that Steve addressed most of the other issues. A better example of this would the Enterprise episode, Similitude. It does deal with a situation when an individual who is unwilling must sacrifice themselves for the better of the whole.

[@KingLouisII]

It's always easier to sacrifice the few, when you're one of the many. A lesson that rings true universally.

[@mmattson8947]

The "many" would be Neelix and Tuvok. That is 2 lives sacrificed to keep Tuvix alive.

[@Tarvok]

"The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few," said the wolves to the elk as they devoured him.

[@tonyajot]

It has always been my understanding that particular teaching had to do with self-sacrifice over forced compliance on an individual. Part-Vulcan Tuvix was clearly not ascribing to that specific part of Vulcan philosophy as he argued, tried to flee, and fought with everything, resorting to desperate pleading, in a futile attempt to preserve his own life. Also... Tuvix clearly proved his own worth as an extremely capable crewmate. It was hubris of the first order to presume that his contributions would somehow be lacking or 'lesser ' than those of his resurrected component parts. To weigh the future potential of an individual and declaring that is insufficient to justify his continued extistance is morally repugnant, yes - it's also scientifically unjustifiable and most importantly an indefensible position for any Starfleet officer, especially that of a highly touted 'science' officer whose position of Captain inherently confers upon her the responsibility to preserve life of crew members, not 'resurrect ' list crew at the expense of an innocent.

[@MomijiSour]

It's really saddening to see Tuvix and the events of the episode never brought up again when TNG, the series with the reputation for having the most static, unchanging characters, has that episode where Picard has an entire lifetime beamed into his mind from an alien probe and that experience changes him so profoundly that he still thinks about and explicitly brings it up years later in the series.

[@elim_inator]

Oh, I absolutely love the ways in which Picard brings up his experiences from "The Inner Light" in later episodes. There's this one episode where he gets his one-off romance with a woman, and they bond via the beautiful music he plays on his flute. I think it was such a beautiful episode and one of the Trek romances that actually worked for me. I'm really sad that Voyager had none - or the least amount possible - of that subtle continuity.

[@GiftSparks]

That is exactly what I was thinking of when Steve mentioned that the Tuvix dilemma is never referenced again in the series. After “The Inner Light” in TNG, Picard is noticeably changed- in many ways for the better. He is less cold and more in touch with his emotional side. I fall on the side that Janeway is not a murderer. Tuvix’s very existence is due to an accident and her actions to undo the result of the accident do not constitute murder.

[@AdamBlack]

She is a murderer but thats why shes homor bound to kill him. She kills all her staff allthe time when they go through a transporter. But only on the condition of reconstructing a duplicate. If she breaks that she is fully responsible for killing two crew who didn't consent. If she can bring them back & get their consent for the merger she is bound to do that too. As long as she finish the original transport she is morally bound to do it. They have all consented to a specific type of suicide but only on the condition of a strict absolute duplication , and doing everything possible to achieve it, lest it be a murder that counts. Murder by unfinished transporter is a murder that counts in this world. When b'lanna is split in two they have the opposite moral problem.

[@Stilgarsan]

@@GiftSparks that kinda sounds like killing a baby out of wedlock. No seriously. The intention behind a beings existence bears no influence on that being's right to exist.

[@Stilgarsan]

@@AdamBlack 1. the whole "the transporter kills people" is a different story, that bears no influence on this. 2. The Torres duplication episode evaded the moral problem by stating that both would die if they stayed separate.

[@scothancock2586]

I think that this episode should have affected the entire ship more. Imagine, that “Tuvix” did happen, but for the next 6 episodes, Neelix & Tuvok we’re gone. The crew would have to adapt to their new crew member, “Tuvix.” They would have to mourn both Tuvok & Neelix. Then all of the sudden, the doctor finally figured out -6 episodes later- how to have both Neelix & Tuvok Back by killing Tuvix. NOW imagine the crew, the viewers, etc. Then of course, Janeway would do the same thing. We would look at her in a different light. To me, THAT is drama.

[@gokbay3057]

Oh that would be delicious

[@Here_is_Waldo]

That is what the show needed. It's a great tragedy that the showrunners were so reluctant to ever let any decision stick more than a single episode.

[@robertt9342]

If they wanted to get around casually murdering Tuvix, all they needed to do was to have the flowers cause some kind of decay and Tuvix was dying. They could actually try to save Tuvix but they didn't take into account that by removing the effect the flowers had and in the process of trying to save him split them apart again into Tivok and Neelix. They could mourn the loss of Tuvix but also be happy to have Neelix and Tuvok back.

[@HP-mf4df]

It also occurs to me that there may have been a better way to weigh the decision: simulate Neelix and Tuvok on the holodeck, educate them as to the situation, then ask them directly. (Their answers may have been obvious, but arriving at them that way would have provided better grounding.) Not only is there more weight with a multi-episode life to Tuvix, but Tuvok and Neelix's actors don't go to waste.

[@tlpineapple1]

@@robertt9342 I think the issue with this is the writers didnt want to "get around" casually murdering tuvix, and frankly, i think thats the worst option. You lose nearly off of the moral dilemma for just a bit of drama. I would of preferred the exact same scenario but spread over a few episodes. Give the audience time love tuvix, and show more of how he grew and interacted with tuvix. It could have easily been a full season arc, with half the season dedicated to the creation of tuvix, his integration into the crew, then his death, which could have been a full episode from his perspective. Then the second half dealing with the effects of the collective decision to muder him. All of this could easily be woven into an episodic storytelling and been much more influential on the audience.

[@Geminias]

One of the major issues is Gene Roddenberry's philosophy about his characters. It's directly stated in his Andromeda show but it applies to his star trek universe as well; if star fleet has one weakness it's that its officers are too competent, too caring, and too brave. Tuvok would have likely been 100% against being brought back if it meant killing someone.

[@MorgorDre]

Thats a good point. I always thought Neelix and Tuvok would sacrifice themselves if they can safe somebody else, so Tuvix would too. You definitely have a point.

[@Archivist82]

Yes. Which is why I always thought Barclay was such an interesting character to create amongst these paragons of perfection. Although I wish Dr Crusher or The Doctor could come up with a hypo spray of something to cure social anxiety!

[@AdamBlack]

Tuvok would also rather die 1000 deaths than be merged with Neelix & Tuvix knows this. Hes a walking abomination with less bravery thsn Neelixs little finger, none of Tuvoks Vulcan integrity. No way would Tuvok consent.

[@skyblaizepleiadianhighcoun9993]

Taking it to the root. Fyi stories The One True God

[@paulsmart4672]

Tuvok, certainly, would have unequivocally refused to live at the cost of some stranger's life. Vulcans don't tend to question their moral principles when the chips are down. The emotional temptations that would lead someone to do so are buried too deep. Neelix, despite mostly being a shithead, has been shown to have some strong moral notions from time to time. I think he would, at the very least, have been horrified at being forced to make the choice to live at the cost of someone else's life. It really is too bad we don't get their reactions to Janeway's decision.

[@Titamiva]

Then there is the ENT episode with a copy of Trip grown to be farmed for his organs.

[@shayneoneill1506]

That was fucked up, and the first time I ever actually got angry at a star trek episode

[@FiXato]

Yup, I'm surprised Steve didn't bring up Sim. Maybe saving him for an episode of his own?

[@Brando64]

Sure, but Sim gets an honourable funeral, which is more than Tuvix got. The only one who stood up for Neelix was the Doctor.

[@MikeRisley]

I came to say the same. Here's the summary for anyone wondering about it: memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Similitude_(episode)

[@alexolson7473]

There are two episodes that I am surprised you didn't mention. The one where Torres is separated into a Klingon Torres and a Human Torres. The other is the DS9 episode where Odo and Kurzon are merged.

[@frederickhogrefe7459]

It always makes me laugh that the flower they merge with gets turned into a pattern on their tuvix uniform. Lol transporter magic...

[@scaper8]

Shit, I never noticed that. I saw that Tuvix's uniform was different, but I always assumed that it was some part of Neelix's outfit.

[@richwiltshaw927]

I think that it's intended as a hybrid between their two attires. I think the flower was in the orchid.

[@ThatWeirdo04]

It doesn't. The flower pattern was on Neelix's shirt.

[@Bastion90]

What I never understood was why Neelix ended up wearing a Starfleet uniform at the end of the episode rather than his original clothes being back to normal.

[@jasonhelman3310]

Does the flower rematerialize too at the end of the episode? I don't even have to watch it, it probably does not.

[@cadman02]

An idea about how the Tuvix episode could have ended without killing him. They could have used transporter cloning to create another Tuvix and then separated the clone into Tuvox and Nellix. It would be having your cake and eating too. Then they could have had a nice laugh in ten forward and talked about how Tuvix will be a great member of the crew then never bring him up ever again.

[@KevinWta]

I thought of that too but doesn't the Clone has just as much a right to live as the original Tuvix?

[@AdamBlack]

Should have scanned his brainwaves and transported a copy into the holodeck.

[@tonoornottono]

@@KevinWta split the clone while it’s still in the pattern buffer? does life begin at materialization? lol

[@deaks25]

I think Tuvix would have been better as a two-part-er, whether to allow Tuvix more time to form relationships and make the outcome that much more difficult forthe characters and viewer (We get time to bond with Tuvix and 'forget' Tuvok and Nelix), or to explore the aftermath; as you discuss about how Janeway, Tuvok, Nelix and the rest of the crew feel. It's a missed trick for me, but this feels like a Kobyashi Maru situation. Tuvok and Nelix are not actually dead and do still exist as the Doctor speaks about when he says they can be restored, it's just they are the ingredients of Tuvix. He can't exist if Tuvok or Nelix don't exist, to take the cake example, the cake can't exist without the eggs, flour and water existing. They've been combined to form something new, but they don't suddenly not exist. Transformed maybe and not as they were. It means they can be 'saved' as Janeway sees it. However Janeway, as you rightly observe, has to abandon some of the core principles of Starfleet to save them, ie murder Tuvix. A cold, Vulcan logic view is quite simple; sacrificing one individual to save two is a logical choice, but you have the Picard reference of not allowing moral choices to be decided by mathematics. At that point it can become an interesting look at a rookie Captain (Janeway IS a rookie captain, Voyager is her first full command, we forget that a lot) with no senior support to fall back on faced with this "dammed if you do, dammed if you don't scenario." How does she make that choice? Ultimately, she has to 'kill' someone. But that is what a naval command officer has to do; they have to be prepared to make decisions that get people killed and it would have been interesting to explore that a bit more. I do agree with you; Janeway does murder Tuvix and her manner is utterly brutal and unforgivable, but I've always held that it's a bit more nuanced than the episode shows us. I don't think it's as simple as "I want my buddies back so I order you to bugger off and die please." I think the writing does have to rush the end; Janeway just wakes up in morning, decision made. We see in many, many episodes that she consults regulations regularly to assist in her decisions (Even if she flat out ignores them). We can infer she does the same here and I think the episode would've been much better if we got to see that. The only criticism I'd have is the dismissing episodic shows. They can do deep and meaningful episodes like this. With the grand arcs you have to watch every episode or you'll have no idea what's happening, and back in the 90's we only had broadcast schedules, so you either had to make sure you could be there on time or hope for repeats, otherwise you're stuck, so I think you jump unfairly hard on that point. These days, episodic shows aren't necessary because of catch-up and streaming services. ST Voyager's problems are not that it was an episodic series, it was the writing was offensively bad. Hell, they flat out forgot they hadn't killed Samantha Wildman and wrote Naomi Wildman episodes as if her mother was dead, remembered they hadn't killed her, so just lumped in little references to Samantha into the script at the last second. If that doesn't highlight what ST Voyager's problems were, nothing does. One day you'll actually give us Voyager fans some actual love and spend a whole video saying nice things about Voyager. And you know Janeway is always watching right...

[@PrincessSlytherClaw]

Agredd

[@Lowraith]

They ARE dead. Otherwise a person who has decomposed into soil isn't dead because they're just "ingredients in the plants". What we're taking about is analogous to a human sacrifice ritual to resurrect two dead people. It's murder, it's evil.

[@FirestormMk3]

It really was insane "Thomas" Riker wasn't immediately given the same promotion and decoration Will got after that mission. They were explicitly for actions Thomas took too.

[@shadizersilverhand2113]

Yes! Exactly! So many totally ignore that point. Both are Riker, both committed all the actions that came with the commendation and awards that only the one that got away got to enjoy. The federation's reaction is pretty much 'first guy back is the one we acknowledge sucks to be you.'

[@ZS-bg7jo]

Oddly... this is actually pretty realistic... Commendations and promotions come from the commanding officer recommendations. OG Riker got that. Thomas... is recorded as a rescue and another reason the transporters should be feared as an existential threat to humanity as a cloning-murder box. He technically does not have a commanding officer any more. He got handed off to medical for clearance, security for debriefing, then dropped into the officer pool with an akward gap in assignments. So technically, Picard dropped the ball on filing the paperwork

[@ZipplyZane]

I makes sense to me. Thomas has a lot of psychological trauma. Immediately promoting him to a position of authority could be problematic. Will didn't have this issue. Promotions aren't just an award. It's an increase in responsibility.

[@TrekkieBrie]

The duplicate episode that gets me a lot is the Enterprise episode where Trip had a clone made for him for the purpose of harvesting parts.

[@octoberboiy]

Yeah that or the episode of DS9 that had the descendants of the Defiant crew erased from history because they escaped a barrier. It reminded me of this episode and had me look it up.

[@shepwillner7507]

Trip Tucker is better-looking than Neelix, and he should be cloned so that all of the females in Archer's life can get a piece of him. :-)

[@shayneoneill1506]

Yeah that episode was obnoxious. Chip was created on *purpose* knowing that they'd have to kill him. Plus arguably Tuvix still lived with his entire being still alive in Tuvok and Neelix, but Chip? They just needed to yeet a small amount of brain tissue. Most of his brain died on that operating table. Its a straight up killing.

[@fearisthemind-killer]

@@shayneoneill1506 Not exactly true. They thought that clone was only going to live nine days (I believe it was nine). They figured that the clone would live out its lifespan, and then once the clone died of natural causes, they could harvest the brain tissue. It was the only reason Archer agreed to the cloning in the first place. (And no, I don't know why I'm replying to a two-year-old comment. LOL.)

[@JessieGender1]

I adore the fact that Steve has shown that I have become synonymous with positive-exclusive criticism haha.

[@MorenoBroadwayMusical]

At least someone is! Your channel is great because you talk positively about something we all enjoy instead of toxically hating on that thing

[@ethankennan212]

Yeah. We need more reviewers like that.

[@TheDeadBeatenHorse]

What bugs me the most about the ending, like Steve said no one tries to stop Tuvix from being split, is that the show out right tells you Tuvix began to settle in to a role on the ship. Janeway herself does the log, sounding pleased, so it seems as a big 180 in my opinion. It's not like they had Tuvix confined to quarters and the method to split him was made a day or so later. Tuvix was alive for a period of time and established connections with the crew and began to contribute to the ship all to have those connections not stand up for him.

[@qwaurk985]

Yet, there are people who will defend her actions or say "no right answer" trying to justify outright murder if you read comments on other videos on this episode.

[@mrpyu8397]

And doing nothing would also be murder. Doing nothing would have KILLED Tuvok and Neelix, because the Doctor did have a method of separating Tuvix.

[@philipsalama8083]

​@@mrpyu8397 Neelix and Tuvok are already dead. It's not even in the same ballpark.

[@iainwhite8617]

@@philipsalama8083 They aren't dead, they're trapped inside Tuvix. They weren't destroyed, they were imprisoned, converted into a new life form against their will, their minds and will erased and supplanted by a different conciousness. That reminds me of some other characters in Star Trek, who could that possibly be.

[@chazblank2717]

Arguably the only reason Tuvix can express his desire to live so passionately, is because Nelix almost certainly wouldn’t wanna give up his own life for Tuvix.

[@BrotherAlpha]

That, "Short answer: Yes. Long answer: YEEEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSSSS!" is such a Dad Joke.

[@Donnagata1409]

Steve is a daddy, we've known that for a long time!

[@msullivan1]

steve is suuuuch a dad

[@katiecat9353]

Even if you don't consider Tuvix a separate person, splitting him back into Tovok and Nelix is a clear violation of bodily autonomy, since that's not what he wants.

[@Masarofia]

The murder juice exchange between Larry and Janeway... killed me! Love your channel, Steve!

[@Pengalt]

What I find interesting (and frustrating) about this episode is that it seems like there was a desire to take Voyager in a more serious direction, but it ultimately didn't. Instead of forcing this difficult choice onto Janeway, the writers could've had another reason for Tuvix needing to be separated. Make Talaxian and Vulcan DNA incompatible for some reason and Tuvix degrades until the doctor can come up with a way to split them. The crew gets to say their heartfelt goodbyes to their new friend, and the choice is essentially made for them via the circumstances. Again, that's what I find frustrating. They clearly intended to have Janeway make the choice to murder Tuvix but never went anywhere with it. Wasted potential.

[@shadizersilverhand2113]

She certainly should have suffered sanctions for it back in Federation space rather than becoming an Admiral, she wasn't any better than the captain and crew of the Federation ship that was sacrificing aliens as fuel. She made it clear she had no respect for the lives of her crew and would sacrifice them as she felt like it.

[@AdamBlack]

But if she doesn't finish the transport thats exactly who she would be to the rest of the crew. Her real crew. Someone who would sacrifice their lives for a slightly better pastry chef. Her unwillingness to let tuvix steal their memories and transporter buffers for a new crew member is vital to maintain loyalty morale and camaraderie of her real crew. Many of whom are maqui & thin at best. A captain that isn't willing to sacrifice to save her crew is unworthy of being followed. Unfortunately a captain must be willing to ask crew to give up their lives when vitally necessary. Thats captaincy 101. But 102 is always bringing back every original crew & every transport pattern. Break that trust & whole operation flies apart. The truth is everyone had a moral crisis in this episode except for Tuvix. He was such a feel good sociopath , on a dopamine high queering up Tuvok . He had zero compunction of Tuvok & Neelixs death. He was their replacement ( ick) while basically their friend were at their funeral. Then when his own logic is followed he is a unique person. its so damn creepy that he wants to fuck kess while shes grieving her two friends. No empathy or compassion at all.

[@trl2151]

Thats a copout tho. Life sometimes has shitty decisions you have to make, and theres not gonna be an easy out like DNA incompatibilities. Two lives and a hundred years of experiences between them, their family and friends. Or 1 life that's existed for a few days, and was never meant to be?

[@tonoornottono]

⁠@@AdamBlacki find this comment fascinating and i really appreciate the time you took to write it. for a long time this episode has been incredibly strange to me, and i never REALLY understood the purpose of it. it was just eerie and honestly just seemed like a shock episode. but something about your comment made the purpose click for me. that shot on the bridge, of all of the crew silently staring at Tuvix, that’s actually the thesis of the episode. they don’t say anything, they don’t argue for or against his death. i think it’s a silent, tragic acknowledgment that the only way they will ever trust janeway after this point is if she undoes the transporter accident. i don’t agree entirely with your assessment that tuvix was a sociopath. i do agree that the deaths of neelix and tuvok didn’t quite process for him, but i attribute that more to a sense of continuity on his part. “i’m standing right here,” sorta thing. he was caught up in a really fantastic and novel experience and i don’t blame him for being distracted or still having feelings for a woman he was literally dating hours ago. i do think he deserved to live, i think the whole crew knew that he deserved to live. but they didn’t really care what he deserved. and for a long time i believed that when they stood there staring, it was just because they wanted tuvok and neelix back. but that’s bullshit, i kinda see that now. they didn’t care about tuvok and neelix, not really. they were looking out for themselves. tuvok and neelix were just a good excuse. “i’m speaking for them, because they aren’t here.” thank you for pointing me in the direction of this interpretation.

[@searchingfororion]

​@@tonoornottonoI'm sorry, but you genuinely think that someone who said "on a dopamine high queering up Tuvok" is making a thoughtful analysis here? Firstly, their description of captain's priorities doesn't align with Starfleet or any military branch, so I've no idea where that nonsense came from. Also, can *you* tell me what Tuvix "on a dopamine high queering up Tuvok" means to you since that comment was worthy of insight? I'd really like to know what your reflections led you to on that one. I apologize if I seem harsh but I really want to know how someone can pass though that much blatant hatefulness, ignoring it, find something worth reflecting on and write a thankful reply. I'm being quite sincere and I'm being genuine regarding my questions and wanting insight on your decision making there. I promise, I will absolutely not be combatative with you. I'm just trying to understand.

[@Frey12]

Farscape turned this trope on its head. There were two Chritons for like a whole season and it was crazy.

[@douglaswolfen7820]

Crazy and amazing. "Do you love John Chrichton? Not me. Not him. John Chrichton."

[@acerumble]

Was intending to mention this too! They followed close to Steve's concept, quickly dispensing with the approach that there was a "real" and a "duplicate" Crichton, but instead making both characters equally valid and valued in their identities.

[@KitKatHexe]

@@acerumble like with Thomas Riker in TNG

[@chip5541]

There was also the 3 Chritons from different evolutionary times.

[@mr.mammuthusafricanavus8299]

I think Farscape is quite underrated ;p

[@Stardust_7273]

As Odo said “Murdering your own clone is still murder.” That DS9 episode is the only ST episode ever to present it as a bygone conclusion (as it should be) and the man responsible is actually punished. He isn’t just the bad guy for framing Odo for the crime.

[@waz207]

OMG! After the “short answer: yes” gag...I was like...I hope he does, “long answer: yeeeeeeessss” and goes to the end screen again. Thank you for making my morning Steve! Also...I truly enjoy the” Janeway’s gonna hurt me” gag. I especially enjoy them on non-voyager videos

[@oldchannel5421]

What I wondered was; Why aren't the Maquis crew members speaking up? I know Voyager basically decided to forget that entire plot point after the first episode, save one or two sparce mentions, but surely this is their thing right? The Federation denying one of a person's basic rights just because its simpler for them. And Janeway levies the "I'm Captain" card in the episode, meaning intentionally or no, she's enforcing it from a position of strictly Federation authority. We see in TNG's "The Pegasus" that Starfleet recruits can leave the academy with their heads dizzy with ideals of duty, which is a reasonable excuse for the Starfleet members of the crew not to go against their captain, but perhaps not a reason thats totally correct. (Plus lets admit, you're a ludicrous distance from anyone who could ever hold Janeway accountable for anything, would you go against her with that in mind?), but regardless of if you think Tuvix should or shouldn't have been separated, the Maquis have all the reason to speak up and hell, maybe it could have even reintroduced the Federation-Maquis conflict on Voyager.

[@AdamBlack]

Or it would justify all of the crew mutinying if she didn't finish the transport to bring her crew back. Thats the most basic trust a crew has with Captain. Every time they use a transporter. If she won't do everything possible to revive them she not worthy of being followed. If you use a transporter you have a right to expect your pattern to be brought back. No matter what. If someone has stolen your pattern to get an organ & it can be reversed, so be it.

[@captaeh]

Since you mentioned Kirk, Voyager did an episode where B'elanna was divided into her human and Klingon halves at one point too.

[@floydharper1216]

I kinda forgot that ever happened

[@EdgardoCervantesP]

Which explains why B'Elana was all for the murder juice... Or something like that.

[@stonecrier6891]

I was a teenager when this originally aired and was a huge fan of TNG and DS9. I was enjoying Voyager until this episode. I remember that it felt so revolting to me and it shattered my respect for Janeway that I simply stopped watching it. Almost 30 years later, I have not revisited the series and have never seen an episode since. I only came here since it randomly popped into my mind.

[@marioluigi9599]

YEAHHHHH I suppose you're "vegan" now as well, right?

[@Velvet_Intrigue]

Tuvix was also a totally unique being. He was the only Vulcan/Talaxian/Alien Orchid hybrid in the universe! He is the definition of new life. Murdering him was an absolute violation of the Prime Directive! Its morally reprehensible on so many levels. It was so sad watching Tuvix plead for his life and be betrayed by the entire crew.

[@erickvoshel1]

This also proved to me that Janeway's cruelty & malice had rubbed off on the crew. That makes the betrayal by the crew all the more tragic!

[@borgranta61103]

Janeway nearly murdered one of the Equinox crew members while attempting to extract information by unleashing one of the creatures upon the crewmen. When Chakotay prevented it she relieved him of duty.

[@KiltedCritic]

Yes, she did. I like that the episode gave no easy out no matter what she would decide. Though much like a lot else with Voyager, those long-term consequences are never explored or brought up ever again - that's Voyager's biggest pitfall.

[@uzumchiz1738]

Well, TNG, DS9 and Enterprise did those things too

[@wallacewallaby5782]

@@uzumchiz1738 Agreed. A lot of people like to dookie on Voyager bringing up points that while valid, are also valid for every other Trek series (and most other TV shows) as well.

[@les5503]

Your impression of Neelix sums up how I feel about him as a character. I can enjoy watching Voyager (about to finish my thirdfull watch through), but I understand that it has story problems, and it definitely doesn't come close to my favorite series, DS9. I do like that it adds to the worldbuilding around Vulcans through Tuvok, who is honestly my favorite character on Voyager. I wonder if there could be a video about how blatantly racist so many characters are toward Vulcans. Constantly. Insults about their pointed ears, dismissal of their emotional suppression as something that is unnatural, disgust at their art forms for being dreary and depressing, invasion of their privacy when it comes to the Pon Farr. You see it a lot in Voyager (especially from Neelix, but other characters as well), and in TOS. Spock and Tuvok endure so much outrageous prejudice, and it honestly disappoints me that the show never really frames it in that light. It feels like the audience is meant to agree with it or find it humorous. Granted, I haven't watched the newer Treks or Enterprise, so I don't know if it's different there. But I think there 's a lot of interesting world-building around Vulcan culture, and I find a lot of it beautiful and unique. I dislike that we are led by the show to see it as a joke.

[@julietteangeli]

I really enjoy Tuvok as a character as well- he is my favorite Vulcan in the Trek universe. Tim Russ did a really amazing job of portraying him.

[@kingbeauregard]

They had at least two ways to make this episode better: 1) The Doctor reveals that Tuvix has a prognosis of living only two years or so, and it's still possible to reconstitute Tuvok and Neelix, but there's only a brief window of opportunity. Does that make a difference? I think it might. 2) What if having Tuvix around somehow hurts Voyager -- not sure how this would manifest -- and Janeway and everyone are like "you're still one of us Tuvix, and we've got your back", but Tuvix decides to die? Basically, invert the episode. But the episode as we actually got it ... ? It would never happen on TNG or DS9. Picard would respect Tuvix's choices, no question, and also no dissent from the crew. The DS9 crew would be even more supportive of Tuvix, from Kira talking about the will of the Prophets, to Dax seeing Tuvix as just another joined being, to Odo supporting the rights of a unique being.

[@fnsmike]

The DS9 crew saw almost exactly the same scenario during an episode where Curzon merged with Odo. And their response was mostly: "Well, it's your decision and we'll support you if that's what you both want."

[@xuto2693]

Idk what the writer was going for with this episode. It makes a case it doesn't defend, it speaks on behalf of characters who aren't given a chance to, and paints the entire crew as selfish murderers. Good concept, weirdly written though.

[@rodU65]

Congratulations this decision killed two innocent individuals! Live with that. Janeway save two life at the cost of one. There was no a 3rt option

[@douglaswolfen7820]

Your two options would have made the episode easier. IMHO that's not the same thing as being better. If TNG had done this episode, and decided to keep the joined person alive, then the writers would have thrown in some kind of plot excuse forcing them to undo it all anyway, like you suggested. That way, the characters get what they wanted (their friends back), without having to make the difficult decision. And they get to keep the moral high ground, without ever actually making any sacrifice or paying any cost. It's kind of a cop out. Whatever else is wrong with this episode, I think it was a brave move to do what they did. They forced the characters to actually make the decision and live with the consequences. I prefer it that way.

[@cryofpaine]

There were any number of ways they could have hand-waved this away as an ok thing, but that would defeat the purpose of tge episode. It's supposed to be a hard choice. It's just too bad that we never saw the consequences that normally come with a hard choice because of the nature of the series.

[@Aerinndis]

Given there is a Barclay episode that shows people are conscious through the entire transporter sequence, I wonder what must've been going through Tuvok's and Neelix's minds as the whole thing was going on.

[@originaljiggy]

One of these days, you really need to commit to the short answer gag. Upload a minute of content and the other 30ish minutes of just nothing.

[@richardupcott9026]

Simon Whistler did it. On a viewer question, The answer was "No". He walked off and left the camera on for 10 min.

[@jeremyhagen7684]

:44 seconds

[@briang9581]

There should have been at least one scene where Tuvok and Neelix acknowledged Tuvix. Even if it was only with a pre-recorded log like Old Harry telling his younger self, "You owe me one."

[@firemedic487]

So... wouldn’t killing Tuvix been against the Prime Directive? I mean, Tuvix being a new life form and all...

[@alexthomas6602]

Not pre warp

[@neolexiousneolexian6079]

Why are you mentioning the Prime Directive...? Does the Federation no longer have any other laws, such as against murder? ...Actually, that would explain a lot.

[@gc2009able]

I'm 02:17 into the video and this is a super premature comment, but damn, Steve, I love your videos. Your sense of humor, your take on the world and social issues, and your between-the-lines commentary... it's all just a fantastic combination. I always especially look forward to your scripted Trek, Actually videos. After watching: Just as good as I anticipated. This is the kind of Star Trek content I always want more of. Thank you for creating your videos!

[@DrknssRules1]

I think I remember reading somewhere that Tom was supposed to stay. Originally they thought about actually killing Riker and as a result Tom would take his place on the ship, having to deal with all these new situations and people he has no idea about and adjusting to these "new" relationships.

[@grantk2585]

Let’s be honest. When it comes to having characters go through things that should impact them long-term but it never goes anywhere is characteristic of all Trek. DS9 was the best at carrying things through, but TOS and TNG and Enterprise were no better. The best unique critique of Voyager is that it failed to carry through on its *premise* and not because it failed at carrying through on character development.

[@matthewcabanasaddley9849]

I feel like you need to watch Enterprise again if you think that they ignored long term impacts. Enterprise was arguably even better than DS9 at showing the long term impacts of characters' decisions and how they changed because of those decisions.

[@GreatWhiteElf]

I agree, every series does it. Some do it more often and more egregiously. Like Voyagers "year of hell" honestly would have been the best thing to happen in the voyager series if they, and everyone else, had to live with the consequences of all that time manipulation.

[@boriszakharin3189]

Most of DS9 's "O'Brien must suffer" episodes never make a lasting impact on O'Brien either. DS9 has arc episodes and standalone episodes, and there is a pretty big wall separating them most of the time. Most (pre-Discovery) trek series have both kinds of shows, it's just that DS9 has far more of the former than the latter.

[@Talisguy]

@@matthewcabanasaddley9849 It got much better at it in the later seasons. Early Enterprise was almost worse at remembering actions have consequences than Voyager.

[@JACandQuill]

Out of all the duplicate and clone episodes, one that always stuck with me the most was 'Similitude' (season 3 ep 10 of Enterprise). I'm surprised Steve didn't mention it. I know most people don't really like enterprise, but I always thought that they pulled of this particular trope pretty well. Getting to watch both the childhood and development of Sim, as well as his funeral, gave it a very different (and more full) perspective than most of these episodes allow for.

[@susanscott8653]

One of my favourite episodes from ENTERPRISE. 😁

[@nekkidpossum4397]

Yes, Sim! Such well done episode.

[@Nerd_Detective]

This episode presents an interesting moral dilemma regarding bodily autonomy. Consider an alternative scenario, a bit closer to our real world: both Tuvok and Neelix are in a coma, and by some series of accidents and emergencies have become connected to Tuvix via a life support system. If you disconnect them, Tuvix will die, but they will regain consciousness. Tuvix is conscious and expresses his desire to live. Do we prioritize their bodily autonomy or his right to life? If we map this back onto the episode, thinking of the bits of intertwined genetic material as "belonging" to Tuvok and Neelix, does the combined state render that bodily autonomy invalid, or does Tuvix rely on a de-facto genetic life support system from two other individuals to live? The episode forces us to think about these moral questions in a way that breaks us out of reality, making us consider their component parts because there is no perfect real-world situation we can turn to for comparison. In the episode, does the right of Tuvix to live allow him to use the genetic material (something that is intrinsically theirs) of two other people as a de-facto life support system? One might argue that they are dead, but in the real world death is permanent, whereas Neelix/Tuvok can be "resuscitated" by separating them from Tuvix. Or (as you have) you might argue the opposite -- that forcing Tuvix to give up his life is immoral because this body is now his property, that the combined genetic material of Tuvok and Neelix are his, and thus his bodily autonomy is involiable. What I like about this episode is that depending on how you approach and think about this dilemma, you might come to different conclusions. I don't think there is a "right" answer. There is no perfect deconstruction because it is wrapped in fantasy elements divorced from our reality, so the direction. Trying to map it onto our real-life moral systems requires us to define it in that context. Depending on the direction to come at it from, you can come to equally defensible answers. I tend to side with Neelix and Tuvok on this, because I saw it through a different lens: that Tuvix ultimately was relying on something that wasn't his (literally the bodies of Nelix and Tuvok) to sustain his own life, though through no fault of his own. I prioritize their bodily autonomy over his in that case, and so I fall on Janeway's side -- they still had rights even with their DNA twisted apart by technology into someone else. I fully agree, though, that a lasting shame about Voyager was its reluctance to ever let anything stick. It's a show about a ship lost deep in space, making its way slowly home. The Enterprise exploring around home, always just a stones throw from a base with repairs and fresh crew members, seemed a far better fit for that formula. I'd have preferred something more courageous, with lasting impacts haunting the beleaguered crew as the made their long trek home. Even the basis of some recurring elements felt weird weird because of the "always moving" backdrop -- somehow they kept encountering the same bad guys (many of which were slower than Voyager and weren't literally always chasing behind her), despite generally moving in one direction (albeit with many diversions). It's like the entire quadrant was moving *with* Voyager, leaving this feeling that she was never really getting anywhere.

[@Here_is_Waldo]

I'm not arguing and I agree that Janeway made the only possible choice, I'm just genuinely interested in this matter. Would you say the only reason to let Tuvix die is because the body wasn't technically his to begin with? Technically with organ transplant, one healthy human could save the lives of multiple people: heart, 2 kidneys, liver. We don't kill one human to save four others, but is that just because the body pats belong to the single human? How is ownership decided? The thing was that Tuvoc and Neelix WERE dead. They ceased to exist once Tuvix was 'born'. One way to look at that might be to say that by sacrificing Tuvix, they bring these other two back from the dead. Is that still a good thing?

[@abelgutierrez1283]

@@Here_is_Waldo Here's my take. The simple answer: Tuvix should live. The simple explanation: You sign your name when you step on a transporter. Having said that, there could be another option, but the show doesn't suggest it's possible. And that is to take turns living. Tuvix one week, Neelix and Tuvok the next, or whatever. I like the the discussion that @Nerd Detective raises. The life support system analogy works really well. But it's not the same, and there's a simple answer and explanation for that scenario as well. Answer: All three live. Explanation: Take turns living. (see what I did there? lol I'll see myself out)

[@neolexiousneolexian6079]

Ask me an ethical dilemma? NO you CAN'T don't even TRY! Disconnected them all. Let nature do its thing. If you're not absolutely right, then stop playing god. If you are absolutely right, you're either lying or delusional. If you break the second law or something in a hundred years, then bring heal their wounds and bring them back to life. Until then.... Valar morghulis.

[@Mr_Top_Hat_Jones]

This episode never sat well with me. They just straight-up murdered a member of the crew. It flies in the face of everything Star Trek stands for. I’m not even sure what “lesson” was supposed to be learned here... other than that Janeway can do whatever the fuck she wants, and nobody will stop her.

[@richardmiller9681]

Lets take this to a in universe religious level. Does Tuvix have his own paugh? Or is it just the cbination of Neelix and Tuvoks paugh?

[@scaper8]

Or what about Thomas Riker? One of my favorite book series is David Weber's _Safehold._ I won't bore you with details, but it has _a lot_ of religious and philosophical meditations as part of its plot (all well written and story important to various degrees). And many of them come straight to these questions. The main character is a life-like android with the memories and personality of a woman dead a thousand years earlier. There is a lot of discussion if whether Merlin Athrawes (the protagonist) is the same person as Nimue Alban (the woman who's memories he has), or a separate person, or if Merlin is even a person at all. The question of what of Nimue's soul, and how it is related to Merlin's are nearly as frequent. To my preference, and the story's credit, it falls firmly into the camp of "Merlin _is_ a person. He came from Nimue, but is separate from her." It is less clear on how that work in regards to a soul, but given the even murkier area of metaphysics that inhabitants, I can understand the characters simply not being able to answer.

[@richardmiller9681]

@GozerTheTraveller I think its essentially predetermined since Mirror Bariel was told he had a powerful paugh even though he was the exact opposite of Vedek Bariel. People are constantly told they have a great destiny because of their paugh etc

[@richardmiller9681]

@@richardarriaga6271 is katra just viewed as memories? I can't remember how it was actually described in the movies.

[@benroberts2222]

A great argument in favor of Voyager heading for the Bajoran Wormhole instead

[@pauldiamond1583]

Riker transporter duplicate did come back in a DS9 episode. I loved getting to see how he had grown over the years and how he saw the galaxy differently than the original. *Great video by the way! I always watch your Trek Actually and your Not Actually videos. They're top notch. Love you, man.

[@greyphantom1000]

I really like voyager, but yeah this episode never sat well with me. On caretaker she said they couldn't put their needs above others, but she had no problem doing that here

[@mrpyu8397]

Doing nothing would have killed Tuvok and Neelix. The fact that Neelix and Tuvok survived at the end implied doing nothing would have been worse. Either way, it would have been murder. EIther Tuvix would be killed, or Tuvok/Neelix would be killed.

[@Donnagata1409]

@@mrpyu8397 Rrrrrrrright! Why should Tuvix take precedence over both of them?

[@philipsalama8083]

​@@Donnagata1409 Because he's alive and they're not. Because he feels the horror of being outcast and led to your death, and they don't.

[@iainwhite8617]

@@philipsalama8083 They clearly were alive inside Tuvix. If you consider Tuvok and Neelix as prisoners trapped inside Tuvix, does that change your opinion?

[@joearnold6881]

Great. Now I have Tuvix singing “the whisper song” in my ear. “Jus’ wait till you see my...”

[@shayneoneill1506]

I kind of think people would have forgiven Tuvok if he had vulkan death gripped Neelix in retaliation against the constant gaslighting

[@tristan7296]

He certainly thought about it

[@kenirainseeker539]

Tuvix is literally the trolley problem. You can either take action to end someone's life and ultimately more people are saved, or leave everything alone and only one person lives and more die. There's not really a right or wrong answer and I think that was the point of the episode.

[@firefly4f4]

I find it odd that the ONLY one who actually has the backbone to stand up to Janeway and say "This is wrong" is the Doctor, which is why he's my favorite character on the show.

[@scaper8]

Agreed. But even then, as Steve said, he put up the most ineffective and empty blocks he could muster. Analogously, he bought a gun; bought a bullet; loaded the gun and set it on a table. And then he said, "I cannot kill this man. It is ethically wrong. But, please, proceed if you wish."

[@Keleigh3000]

This is why Seven of Nine was such a great addition to the show. Someone who stood up to Janeway and couldn't be turned off or reprogrammed.

[@douglaswolfen7820]

I don't think the Doctor stood up to Janeway at all. I don't think he even objected. For him to object, he would have had to say something like "this is wrong. We shouldn't do this. I'm choosing not to do this." As I remember it, he never said any of that. I only remember him saying "I physically can't do this. I'm programmed not to." I honestly don't think the writers were trying to say anything about the Doctor's morality here. It was just a plot device to force Janeway to actually press the button herself.

[@pokepress]

scaper8 perhaps that was some weird way of his programming balancing its medical ethics with its ranklessness, or some way of preventing it from being abused to try and absolve a crew member of responsibility. I’m probably overthinking it, but those would be valid concerns in the area of AI ethics.

[@bjornnilsson1827]

@@douglaswolfen7820 Yes, it's similar to how Simon Phoenix is unable to kill that guy in demolition man. More of a hindrance than an actual objection.

[@gaborrajnai6213]

Spock actually got along well with himself. What is strange, because if we learned anything from sci fi is, people hate to face themselves. Besides I liked that you pointed out, that dematerializing Tuvix would be a murder regardless if he agrees it or not. If he would agree however, I think the gravity of this episode would be completely lost.

[@llama74656]

"Quasi-scientific, superficially plausible horseshit" is just the best. And it's used in a positive tone. Love it.

[@FoundationAfro]

How about something like: "Tuvix, we've found a way to bring Tuvok and Neelix back." "Will I die?" "Probably. We calculate there is a chance you'll survive, but it's very unlikely." "I don't think I want to do it." "Okay." _Tuvix goes throughout the ship for an act, seeing people crying over Tuvok and Neelix but trying to hide it when he's around, et cetera et cetera_ "Doctor, I want to perform the procedure." "Are you sure?" "Yes. I know the crew is growing to accept me, but I also know they'll always see me as stealing their friends from them." "Okay, come to med bay." _Tuvok and Neelix come back_ _Tuvix dies because it would kind of be weird to have all three of them at once_ _Tuvok and Neelix build a memorial to Tuvix in the mess hall that's never really acknowledged but can be seen from certain camera angles for the rest of the series_ I don't know if that would be _good,_ I'm not a writer, but at least it would be Tuvix's choice.

[@alanpennie]

But I guess the point of the episode is about how power corrupts. Janeway is absolute monarch of her tiny kingdom and her position encourages her to act tyrannically, not always but when she deems it necessary.

[@patrickdodds7162]

"Tuvix" was "The Measure of a Man" on Opposite Day. (Indeed Voyager was like The Next Generation on Opposite Day)

[@benholman8860]

That's brilliant and sublime.

[@Avidman42]

Is it me or does Tuvix look like whats his name on The Orville?

[@matthewmcneany]

The whole question of Voyager was from the outset: when pushed to the brink and beyond how much would a crew of people raised in the best possible world uphold their ideas or revert to their baser instincts. This is seen most starkly 'equinox' but is present throughout the series. It's interesting to compare the episode to Measure of a Man precisely because Voyager was removed from the legal and societal framework. It reminds me a bit of the vote to kill a man scene in Sunshine. Janeway did what she thought had to be done and had to live with that decision, nobody stopped her, not Chakotay as the moral core of the crew, not anyone else, but not only did the rest of the crew not stop it they also took no collective responsibility for the act, would the crew have voted to subject Tuvix to the procedure rather than just let Janeway order it knowing they would have to live with the guilt? Do military structures allow individuals to abnegate these moral decisions? Is that a good o bad thing?

[@chipch9667]

Voyager being TNG on opposite day makes sense, considering their AI crew member was fun and had compelling stories while Data just redid the same boring “wanna be a human” shtick again and again and again.

[@rvdsmith]

Did Captain Janeway kill Tuvix yes... But she also saved Tuvok and Neelix. Tuvix was a transporter accident that should not have happened. She honestly just undid a horrific mistake. It's a very interesting moral dilemma

[@zax2004]

It's more complicated than equating Tuvok and Neelix merging together to form one being to the two of them dying. The fact that the memories are still present and the fact that it is simply reversible etc. Not saying it isn't killing Tuvix but Tuvok and Neelix didn't "die" exactly. And the cake comparison - but... you can take it back down to it's components in this case... since they do...

[@johnchedsey1306]

I remember watching this episode for the first time and thinking the show would have greatly improved if Tuvix had been kept and the other two bounced from the show. I never was much of a fan of either Neelix or Tuvok, so I wouldn't have missed them. Perfect chance to write them out. Then there would have been lasting consequences!

[@shadizersilverhand2113]

Sadly Tuvix was too good to live. He was more personable, creative, talented, etc than the original components that gave him life and therefor could no remain.

[@reidwallace4258]

Her worst crime was not killing tuvix, it was bringing nelix back to life.

[@sunnijo]

For real, though. He’s the main reason I still haven’t managed to get through Voyager.

[@rodU65]

🤣but that brings back Tuvoq too

[@Fox-86]

😂😂😂😂

[@karabenomar]

Leola root is back on the menu, boys!

[@timbojonesunderwood3086]

The creation of tuvix was an accident. Killing him was deliberate and cruel.

[@ComradePhoenix]

Tuvix didn't kill himself.

[@gaiusjuliuspleaser]

I'd argue that letting Tuvok or Neelix effectively die even though there is a way to restore them is also deliberate and cruel. This is an ethics dilemma with no good outcome. The only choice you have is how many people die at the end of it.

[@kamalalsb7292]

What's wild to me is that you remove the "Janeway is a murderer" thing with a small tweak to the episode. Say the process is unstable - Tuvix is going to die and take Tuvok and Neelix with him unless he goes through the procedure, say. No one is entirely happy that they have to do this, but Tuvix consents and we get a bittersweet ending where Tuvok and Neelix come back, but everyone is very much aware the Tuvix is basically dead and no one is entirely happy about that. I much would have preferred this episode to end with a hint of melancholy rather than the uncomfortable sensation of "Well we just executed a guy, but hey Tuvok and Neelix are back! Now let's never speak of this again!" ...Come to think of it most Voyager episodes ought to end with the line "Now let's never speak of this again."

[@amead78]

Kamala LSB You should watch SF Debris’s reviews of Voyager episodes.

[@jacklow9611]

In a few episodes, they did revisit some earlier episodes, "Fractured" and the one about the duplicate Voyager disintegrating/melting. and of course, those that had mention of the debut episode with the references to the Ocampas and the Caretaker.

[@FirestormMk3]

I think though the point was making you face an uncomfortable situation. Yeah, I think it's outrageous The Doctor is the only one to show an ounce of humanity but it would have been a less memorable and important episode and frankly in my opinion cowardly writing to take any moral dilemma out and make it killing Tuvix clearly the "right" call. Id like to think had he been there and it was a different fusion character Tuvok would have objected.

[@killer3000ad]

That would be a silly cop out. Forcing the ethical dilemma on Janeway with no clear right and wrong answer was the better option.

[@kereymckenna4611]

Coming back to this a few years later after a certain Lower Decks episode...

[@derekblack2000]

Since he has both Tuvok and Neelix's memorys will they have his when they are split will he still be dead

[@ADavidJohnson]

yeah, and it could have been a great way to change the relationship of Tuvok & Neelix to each other, and both of them to Janeway (since they remember her murdering them) But it never comes up again or affects their characters

[@Seal0626]

My take entirely. I don't believe he died.

[@fnsmike]

By that logic, since Tuvix has the memories of both Neelix and Tuvok were they even gone in the first place?

[@mwa9113]

Great job exploring the ill-fated twin/clone trope. However you missed an opportunity to discuss Sim, the Trip clone from Ent. He was literally created to be killed, in service to saving Trip. This episode is definitely worth analyzing for its commentary on clone technology. (Similitude s3e10)

[@DoktorDelta]

“Their morals, their code; it's a bad joke. Dropped at the first sign of trouble. They're only as good as the world allows them to be. You'll see- I'll show you. When the chips are down these, uh, civilized people? They'll eat each other."

[@simonwillis1529]

Captain ransom agreed

[@AdrianVex]

@@Ash_Rein here's a better one: "Let me tell you something about Hew-mons, Nephew. They're a wonderful, friendly people, as long as their bellies are full and their holosuites are working. But take away their creature comforts, deprive them of food, sleep, sonic showers, put their lives in jeopardy over an extended period of time and those same friendly, intelligent, wonderful people... will become as nasty and as violent as the most bloodthirsty Klingon. You don't believe me? Look at those faces. Look in their eyes."

[@Shintigercurl]

@@simonwillis1529 at least ransom felt horrible for what he did and wanted to be punished for it. janeway? just another day.

[@carsonbailey7090]

Very edgy

[@JasonL77]

7:27 “Like you’re not curious?” Well, Steve, I was never curious before, but now you gave me a question that I will never ever be able to have answered, yet never ever stop thinking about.

[@cw7331]

Can we also talk about how almost everyone is a better cook than Neelix. Tuvix, Tuvok after getting brain damage, and Seven on her first attempt. There may be more I don't remember but it seems only Tom is a worse cook.

[@thequeenofnod7338]

My answer to the question you ask at the end of this video is yes, I am VERY glad I stayed to listen to the long answer. But in all honesty I am a massive fan of anything Trek Actually or even loosely related Star Trek videos you've made in the past. I think you're doing the community a great service by raising the questions, and offering the insights that these videos contain and if I had the money to become a patron, I promise you I would. Unfortunately I don't, so all I can offer is my thanks for all the hard work you put into this series and my hope that it continues. Anytime I see the words "Star Trek" and Steve Shives associated to a video it's an instant click and view from me. ♥

[@FiXato]

one of these days you're gonna do a bait and switch where after your 'long answer' you end up doing a video about a different topic, so we can no longer trust the remaining running time of a video. ;)

[@Donnagata1409]

That would be great! Hope Steve picks up the idea and runs with it...

[@goadamson]

Video topic suggestion: ‘Haunting decisions by Captains and how the SHOULD have been affected’

[@firehawk128]

Voyager's problem in a nutshell. Nothing mattered - even the actual journey, since you could just use time travel to reset everything.

[@Thecommander248]

I wouldn't go that far, but the finale was frustrating to me.

[@christelting1359]

Tuvix was a new self aware person. It was murder plain and simple. I do think a captain so far away should be given latitude in that situation. Even for murder. But in the case of Tuvix there was no pressing situation that specifically needed Tuvok or Neelix to save the ship. Every week Janeway waxed on about her principles and morals. Yet when it came to her friend being gone she killed to get him back because she missed him and secretly felt guilty for liking Tuvix better herself. I remember her condemning the other federation captain for killing what he though was an alien animal species.

[@DannyCosmos]

Tuvix wanted to kill two people and Jen away just wanted to kill one 😂

[@officekuroro]

@@DannyCosmos they were already dead

[@iainwhite8617]

@@officekuroro No they weren't. If that were true, they couldn't be recovered. It's more accurate to say they were trapped, imprisoned and killing Tuvix would be the only way to release them.

[@Elliandr]

What I never understood was why they didn't recreate Riker's beam clone accident while separating Tuvix thus allowing them all to live.

[@KallMeHobbs]

I love your break-downs - you don't pussy foot around just to create content - you put a ton of effort and thought and it doesn't go un-noticed.

[@DraconisInvictus]

"Inter arma enim silent leges." It could be argued, perhaps poorly, that being that far away from a friendly, home port, and with constant run ins with the Kazon et al., that Voyager and her captain, being in a constant state of emergency, and perhaps at war, were right to make that call. Was it murder? Yes. But was it necessary? I think that's a more interesting question.

[@neolexiousneolexian6079]

How does that support the murder? Tuvix consumes half the resources of Neelix+Tuvok, is more skilled than them at both their jobs, and works better with the crew. If anything, being at war is just more reason to keep Tuvix around. Heck, they might have even been able to *end* their emergencies then and there by merging their entire crew into a single god-like person. The combined combat prowess of their entire security department distilled into a single combatant could bring the Kazons to their knees, shortly before the combined acumen of their entire engineering crew figures out transwarp and teleports the Voyager home.

[@mattolin4979]

Steve is correct, Voyager has no business opening this can of worms. TNG would also cop out, doing the same plot but at the end magically keeping all 3 characters and sending Tuvix off on his own in a shuttle. DS9 would either (a) keep Tuvix and kill off the others, or (b) kill Tuvix; both options allow the writers maximum leeway to wound every other character as well as the audience.

[@TakaComics]

They should have had some genetic issue where Tuvix is dying, and there’s a time issue where if they split Tuvix into Tuvok and Neelix in time, they would be ok, but if Tuvix dies, they die. But Tuvix wants to die naturally, which brings up a real ethical question of “saving a life but perhaps not what the person wants,” or “letting someone die peacefully even if you have the power to help them.” I think that would have been a much more dramatic decision for Janeway, rather than “let me kill Tuvix.” It would have been a lot more difficult for the Doctor as well, because he has to decide the rights of three living people, while struggling with the spirit of the Hippocratic Oath.

[@schwarzerritter5724]

That is the cheap way out. Janeway did not d e c i d e to kill Tuvix, doing so was the only option; no hard decisions here.

[@alessia9328]

The episode recap was VERY harsh but also incredibly funny, I'm glad you made that disclaimer at the start so we could know where you stand, after hearing it I could appreciate and laugh at all your jokes without worrying about what you might want to implicate with them.

[@marthaknox6466]

That episode was so emotionally loaded. I remember my brother being so upset about it and going on and on about how it wasn't like real Star Trek. This is a great take on why the episode was good but also why it didn't fit in Voyager as a series. Thanks.

[@lilsnabes]

I just want to say that when you and I disagree on certain things in the real world it is big . that all said . sir you do good work here . I thoroughly enjoy everything you put out . on this topic we 100% agree . You are one of the rare people i have found on the internet that will explain their thought process on something . You're one of the few people that even when we disagree on real world things ... You're not talking out of your ass. It is nice to see people like that on this thing we call youtube ... please keep up the good work

[@maxwellschmidt235]

Pretty good summation on my feelings about voyager. The biggest thing is that even more than ds9, it had a premise that demanded sequential storytelling with lasting impacts.

[@gotham23us]

There's no question at all. Of course it was murder. Tuvix was a sentient being who wanted to continue to exist. He committed no crime. Janeway deliberately terminated his life. That is murder. We can debate the philosophical questions of whether it was justified since ending his life was the only way to save two other lives. It's a complicated version of The Trolley Problem. But I don't see how it's possible to deny that she murdered him. God that's a hard scene to watch on the bridge, when nobody lifts a finger to help him. They know it's murder but...they miss their friends and they want them back. Honestly, the most disturbing thing about that scene is that I'm not convinced I wouldn't do the same thing.

[@janiskeating9004]

When talking about doppelgängers, I'm surprised you didn't include ST:ENT's Sim. Perhaps you'll make another video about his plight. Of course, this time the writers gave Archer so much more justification than they did Janeway; Tucker was needed, to keep the Enterprise running, and Phlox couldn't artificially produce what Trip required. It seemed that there were more ethical discussions in this episode; why did Phlox have that creature, if cloning was a no-no? Was the decision made easier, because Sim would have such a short lifespan in any case? Was the procedure more justified, because Phlox told Sim from the beginning what his purpose was? Again, as in ST:VOY, the new being had many of the original's memories, and it was heartbreaking to see him struggle with feelings that weren't really "his." Phlox, in essence, raised Sim; I wonder how he felt about it in subsequent years. Would T'Pol have become closer to Trip, had Sim not told her how he felt? As a general comment about Voyager, I often wondered if Janeway was "framed" from the beginning. She struggled to keep to her principles, but in a quadrant where Federation help wasn't available, she had to be more of a pragmatist than any other captain. Also, nice Gamera shout-out.

[@darthsindel1981]

You put this in words I couldn't have. That episode broke me up a little.

[@gyver8448]

Phlox had the Larvae because it secreted a viral suppressant he used to treat cuts and bruises.

[@justinmusser8886]

This was also, as everyone keeps forgetting, pre-federation. There was no codified rules set down for groups of species and the humans were literally flying by the seat of their pants. Phlox and his species are 100 percent ok with genetic manipulation, etc. as per their established lore even though humans are not. Hence why such an option would even be presented. To Phlox its not a thing, even if to the humans its a big no no because they have a lot of genetic laws they will be putting in to place in the coming years. There was a lot more complexity introduced to that episode than in Voyagers here.

[@Zugfaehrtdurch]

"Similtude" was a thousand times better than "Tuvix" because it showed the moral dilemma and how deeply it affected the crew. Archer didn't realize the full extent of his order in the first place and it was great perfomance by Bakula and Trineer showing how the two characters had to come to terms with that situation. In the "you are not a murderer" "don't make me one" dialoge you could really how Archer forced himself to say this things and had to convince himself during speaking and the fact that he did not lock up Sim in his quarters contradicted what he said. It was a sad and strong episode which stayed in my head for days afterwards. "Tuvix" on the contrary made me just angry when watching it, not more.

[@kenlove9186]

I liked, subscribed, and am now commenting because you didn’t bury the lead and answered the question in 45 seconds. KZbin needs more of this and less of 18 minutes of BS and shilling for likes and subscribes before getting to the point. Thank you sir, you are the hero we need, not the one we deserve.

[@vect0r858]

Steve: "I think I've got good reasons to kill people." Me: locks door

[@neolexiousneolexian6079]

14:00 Steve: "I wouldn't even have to think about it. Would doing that make me a bad person? I don't care. I'd do it! :D" Me: Hides under bed.

[@pitchdTent]

I think there is an in-story reason for why everyone goes back to acting as if nothing happens at the start of every episode, and it's the same reason why everyone left Twovix to die; Fear. Janeway, from the very first episode shows her willingness to go her way or no way by destroying the caretaker without additional thought. I know that if I were a crewmember on that ship, especially if I were not a senior officer I would be scared to even bump into Janeway.

[@Donnagata1409]

Yes, very glad I stuck around for the long answer. That's funny, I never had a problem with Tuvix disappearing, and was very surprised that so many people had one! I always thought Tuvok and Neelix had precedence , because they existed long before Tuvix, but OK, I'm watching it again... LLAP! 🖖

[@barbarabenoit3667]

I do agree so much, in my opinion, it is that the Tuvix episode has no repercussions afterwards. Do Tuvoc and Neelix not remember their time joined as Neelix and the murder of Tuvix? Does Tuvoc not logically reject Janeway and his other human crewmembers for going through with this murder? Does this wonderful Vulcan not repress, guilt living at the cost of somebody else. How does he deal with Captain Janeway? Is it not staining the friendship between Tuvoc and Janeway? It would have been so interesting to see Janeway hunted by this horrible, morally wrong decision. It would have been great to let her live through a It would have been a nice development, if the killing of Tuvix would have driven Neelix and Kes apart. Instead the greatest lovebirds of all just break up at some stage (What happened to "Ocampa mate for live"?). What about the Marquis, who befriended Tuvix? They had accepted Chakotays decision to - in order to get home - work as "starfleet". But now - the Starfleet Captain has shown, that she is a dictator, deciding to murder an innocent beeing, for selfish reasons. I think they should wish for a more democratic approach to decision making now. It would give rise to rebellion, would it not? It would have been so interesting to see this beeing the reason Tuvoc and Neelix have a bond. By the way - would they not after having shared a mind - have developed a Vulcan bond, of the mind? This would have been so interesting, if Neelix would actually be the familiy member helping the struggling meditating Tuvoc through pon farr through a mind melt. But no - it is groundhog day again...

[@MrQuijibo]

Let's not ignore the fact they could probably have gotten Tuvok and Neelix back and left Tuvix alive if the plot had called for it

[@LarsCT]

So would have twiddling the transporter controls and re-separating Tuvok, Neelix and the orchid before materialization also have murdered Tuvix? Or doing it a second later? At which time does fixing a transporter accident become murder?

[@OpinionsNoOneCaresAbout]

For some reason, this made me realize that if Discovery had a scene where the crew accessed the historical files of whatever Starfleet is a thousand years in the future, there's a chance Riker could show up in those old files...which means there would have been a Riker in every series since TNG.

[@scaper8]

Interesting. I admit, I do kind of like that idea. Has _Lower Decks_ has Riker on? I haven't watched it.

[@OpinionsNoOneCaresAbout]

@@scaper8 damn it I forgot Lower Decks...

[@ChrisMWalker]

TAS?

[@SummitSummit]

@@ChrisMWalker Shh... We don't talk about that.

[@glenndominiak4687]

As a huge mst3k fan the gamera reference made me smile 😁Thank you so much for your content,both the Star Trek and the politics. I am very impressed

[@KEVMAN7987]

When Tuvix said that Tuvok & Neelix live on in him, Janeway should've pointed out that Tuvix will live on in Tuvok & Neelix.

[@thecommenter6773]

The death penalty does exist in the federation. Its only done for anyone who goes to Talos IV where the talosians are at. Because clearly visiting a planet inhabited by people who don't want (regular) visitors is far more serious than murder, genocide and stealing old booze from a bar. Heck, in the starfleet academy comics by Marvel, which stars Nog as part of a squad led by Commador Decker's grandson, the squad gets charged with it cause they were going to that planet (to warn the talosians of some telepath virus made by the dominion or something) (or maybe they called the squad through their betazoid member?, i'm just going by the summary i remember reading) And nog gets off from it cause he's the first ferengi in starfleet, and they can't kill him cause it won't look good.

[@KevinOShaughnessyGuitar]

I think there's an entirely different interpretation of this episode--what happened to Tuvix wasn't an execution, it was an abortion. This may be Voyager's attempt to explore that very polarizing issue. In discussions of abortion the question of who the child will grow up to be usually comes up. Will they be they be the next Mozart? The next Hitler? For purposes of this episode, Tuvix answers that question. The characters in the show possibly represent the different attitudes and positions of people on the subject. When I see the scene where Tuvix pleads for his life and no one stands up for him, I see the crew representing the people who simple bow out of the discussion, refusing to take a side. I don't think it's perfect by any stretch, but if it is an attempt to discuss abortion then I think that attempt was made in a very Star Trek way.

[@romulino]

Hmmm... no. Abortion is all about people thinking differently about considering something a living sentient being or not. Tuvix was clearly sentient and aware of everything, so it's a bad metaphor.

[@PeterBarnes2]

There are positions on abortion that don't require discussion of the sentience of a being. [I'd even argue (while also being pro-choice) that the sentience doesn't matter because it's highly expected that the unborn would eventually become sentient if they aren't already, thus we can discuss morality in terms of that very much sentient person of the future.] For the more particular discussion on abortion you might check out Philosophy Tube's video on it: kzbin.info/www/bejne/mWOzcpSgoa2VpLc In that discussion, it becomes very much like the one in this video: Can the agency of one person carry the weight of life and death over others? This discussion of Tuvix's agency as compared with the lives of Tuvok and Neelix does now very clearly parallel that particular discussion of abortion. (The question of whether or not the writers were thinking about abortion is both largely unanswerable and largely uninteresting.) This point actually helped me reframe how I thought about this episode. I kept focusing on the trolley problem aspect (to which I still find Picard's opinion reductive and idealistic), but I didn't register the importance of agency. It's a very good question to ask, and, if one spends time thinking about their moral beliefs, it will surely be enlightening to various nuances: What are the relationships between forms of agency and the conditions (material and otherwise) of others? Strictly speaking, though, the moral dilemma of the episode is weaker than that of abortion; the net difference is of one life, but the details of agency are different. With the Tuvix question, it's the life of two who cannot be given agency in the matter, against the agency of life of one who can be given that agency. In the question of Abortion rights (for which most discussion doesn't pertain to cases where the mother's life is endangered), it's the life of one who cannot be given agency in the matter, against the bodily agency of one who can be given that agency. It's perhaps a subtle distinction, but one that would make a difference for some.

[@allanolley4874]

​@@romulino I don't think this is meant as an allegory for abortion, the cases seem very different, however the status of the fetus is not the only question at stake in the abortion debate, and you can decide one way or the other on the question of the status of the fetus and still think abortion is permissible or not. In the case where a pregnant woman's life would be forfeit if she carried the baby to term (for example, she needs cancer treatment that will induce a miscarriage, but it will be ineffective and not cure the cancer if they wait until the baby finishes gestation), it does not matter (says me and many other people) what the status of fetus is, it would be murder to prevent her from obtaining the treatment required to save her life and so you can't ethically prevent the abortion without committing murder if the pregnant lady wants to go through with treatment to save her life. The question about whether a person is a sentient being comes up in the Tuvix case in the question of whether Tuvok and Neelix are in any sense alive to have a claim on what is happening. This does get into the tricky question of what it is to be alive. Is a fetus alive, is someone in a total coma alive though he does nothing not even think or feel. Is someone frozen in some inert state, the cryogenic humans in the TNG episode Neutral Zone were they still alive, Beverly Crusher thought they were but Picard actually seems to have been skeptical of the picture. For whatever it is worth I think Tuvok and Neelix are alive in some senses when Tuvix is alive and not in others. Likewise I think Tuvix is still alive in some senses when Tuvok and Neelix exist separately (after the merger at least) even if he is dead in others. This is the biggest disanalogy with the abortion case, in the abortion case whatever the status of the fetus it is definitely gone after an abortion, likewise if the mother's life is at stake in the pregnancy she is definitely dead (once the cancer runs its course etc.). If you wanted to make the abortion-Tuvix analogy maybe the way to do it would be to imagine Tuvix as the pregnant person and Tuvok and Neelix as a pair of fraternal twins gestating inside Tuvix. Imagine due to some bizarre medical contrivance that the pregnancy will never end unless some medical procedure is performed on Tuvix and if that medical procedure is performed then Tuvix dies. As I say I don't think this works since to me the sense in which Neelix and Tuvok exist when Tuvix does is the same sense in which Tuvix exists when Neelix and Tuvok does. So the case would be Tuvix is pregnant with Neelix and Tuvok but if he gave birth then Neelix and Tuvok are now each eternally pregnant with Tuvix.

[@sorokahdeen]

A great examination of the show and the episode. Your reasoning is airtight and sympathetic which makes this excellent criticism. Kudos.

[@athane8358]

"I dont hate Voyager" *Kicks Janeway in the ribs* "But I haven't gone soft"

[@VolkerHett]

I'm very happy I stuck around for the long answer. The philosophical aspects - few as they are - don't get the attention they deserve. Good work!

[@timothymcneil4383]

I guess my question is: Does Tuvix have a fundamental right to exist? Star Trek isn't big on Kantian morality where respect for another's being is paramount, but there usually is a message that there is a degree of sanctity of life. I imagine Janeway looked at the "Tuvix Problem" as one which could be solved where the original crew members could be fully restored--crew members who had not consented to being sacrificed to create a new being (even in knowing the risks of away missions there is no assumption that one will be 'merged' with another being to create a third)--by fixing the 'mistake' which created Tuvix. If Tuvix had been created by the Vidiians in an attempt to further their attempts to combat the Phage, it is likely we, the audience, would view Tuvix as the result of an inhumane experiment and fully champion the restoration of Neelix and Tuvok. When Geordi La Forge was being transformed into a different creature in "Identity Crisis" there was no debate as to whether there should be an attempt to restore his "natural state". The follow up question would be: Does Tuvix have a greater right to exist than his formative parts, beings who can be restored and who would choose to be restored (despite the evidence of Tuvix giving an impression that the two would accept being merged into a new being)? Tuvix is essentially a medical condition which can be cured. While it is not a life-threatening (to Tuvix, though most certainly to Neelix and Tuvok it is) condition which would permit the Doctor to override the wishes of the patient, it could be viewed as akin to a mental health issue where the patient is treated as incompetent to properly appreciate and make decisions about the best care. Now, it is all made up and kind of doesn't matter. The original patterns of Neelix and Tuvok should have been stored in the transport's memory buffer and it would only take energy to recreate them as they existed right before they beamed down to the planet. There are ethical reasons why Starfleet and the UFP prohibit that, but the in-universe science backs it up as something which can be (and had been) done. In this light, Tuvix is disassembled (killed) so the crew can feel more comfortable. And it seems to me the only argument Janeway could make in that instance is that as a result of a transporter mishap, Tuvix did not enjoy a fundamental right to live.

[@marvelboy74]

Bravo, sir. Also, we can look at it with Seven (or any Borg really). Did Janeway have the right to remove Seven from the Collective? Like Tuvok and Neelix, Annika was in the wrong place at the wrong time and was turned into something else without her consent. If Tuvok would have been assimilated, wouldn't we have expected Janeway to get him back, and not just write him off as a casualty? Tuvix was not Tuvok. Tuvix didn't speak for Tuvok, he only spoke for himself. Tuvok would not have thought about cheating on his wife. And Tuvok certainly would not have tried to pursue a relationship with his protégé. This leads me to believe that Tuvix had none of Tuvok's personality, just his knowledge. Tuvix however was Neelix's wish fulfillment. He was a member of the crew, he was respected, he got the girl. Tuvix enjoyed these things and didn't want them to end.

[@rodU65]

Not sure about fundamental rights to live. He was a individual. But I support Janeway decision. Two lifes at the cost of one. There is no easy decision. Everyone in this comments go seflt righteous in favor of Tuvix, but they are not the ones that need to decide to keep him alive and kill other two lifes. Inaction was not a option. You can live with one dead or two in your karma. Nothing less

[@kenirainseeker539]

@@thetimebinder insentient embryos don't, no.