How Could Voyager Have Fixed Tuvix? (Trek, Actually Comment Responses)

[@StormsparkPegasus]

Being tolerant doesn't mean you have to be tolerant of intolerance.

[@coeusdarksoul2855]

I tolerate everything I can - my only issue is that I'm Bullshit Intolerant. It's fatal :(

[@PKingZombieSpy-True]

Going by Karl Popper, you are in fact obligated to not be tolerant of intolerance, because that tolerance ultimately destroys the open society.

[@MagnusSkiptonLLC]

It's basically, be tolerant and respectful by default, until the individual gives you a reason to lose that respect.

[@jasonbolding3481]

@@PKingZombieSpy-True you are vastly misstating popper definition of tolerance to apply it in this way

[@dm121984]

The irony of tolerance is that it requires not tolerating intolerance. Or at least, limiting it's acceptably. If intolerance is allowed to foster and spread, it rapidly kills the tolerance that hosted it.

[@trekjudas]

I do "love" it when conservatives try to equate disagreeing with them as some form of prejudice. As if conservatives are a race!

[@malicant123]

As someone who doesn't do politics one way or the other, I can tell you whilst conservatives do this, liberals take it to an art form.

[@tonoornottono]

@@malicant123but not one way or the other, right?

[@glennwilliams2950]

@@malicant123It’s clear you don’t follow politics. Only a true novice can make such a stupid comment.

[@robertt9342]

⁠@@malicant123. Is it a left and right thing, or is it because those who experience prejudice tend to be on the more progressive side of politics?

[@KassFireborn]

​@@malicant123 "As someone who doesn't do politics one way or another" is an unnecessary convoluted way of saying you're oblivious to your own bias, but go off.

[@travis1240]

I agree 100% on the inclusiveness discussion. I think it's ridiculous for people with an anti-inclusion agenda to rail against not being included.

[@turquoise9706]

I do genuinely love how much you use this platform to be inclusive. I'm a trans woman, and I really do like how you stand up and speak about diversity. You recognize the privilege you have, and you use that privilege to remind others to be inclusive and recognize the basic validity of other humans. And you also talk about diversity in a really respectful way, even making sure to use some terminology that shows 'yeah, this guy cares, and he gets it.' It's just really nice to see, and it's always appreciated ♥

[@turquoise9706]

To go into the comment that brought us here today, lol... Yeah, absolutely I get where you're coming from. Being default inclusive is absolutely the way to go. I try really hard to be open to others, to try meeting things with positivity. Even when I'm being challenged on the basis of being trans, I'm still going to try to engage, maybe help that person see a viewpoint that they just genuinely haven't been exposed to when it comes to the LGBTQ+ community. I love doing that, I love building empathy in folks. But when a person doubles-down on their hate, I have to walk. And that's not being un-inclusive or hypocritical. That's choosing to disengage from the voices who speak openly about discounting others. If someone feels it's ok to draw the line, to discount others based on X reason, then they shouldn't be surprised when they're not invited. In order to be inclusive and include all folk, the folk drawing those lines are the ones that, yes, are going to be removed from the conversation. And that's not hypocrisy - that's protection from hate.

[@shadowhenge7118]

@@turquoise9706 transwoman here, i concur, this guy is how humanity should be.

[@nerdicorntheshipper2885]

I'm a trans man and honestly I was kinda worried when I first started watching his videos bc look it's another cishet guy talking about star trek. But I'm really glad I gave him a chance and I agree that his aditude of inclusivity really makes me feel welcome here.

[@MintyFarts]

Honestly a subplot where a fraction of the crew is disgruntled with janeway and are a blend of crew, not just the original split, would have added a lot of depth pretty easily.

[@1monki]

Yeah, the issue with VOY's static characters is they were designed to change and then didn't. Kim can't be the "green" ensign for seven seasons. Paris can't have something to prove to himself and others for seven seasons. B'elanna can't be the officer that doesn't quite fit in. They were different Star Trek characters for a different Star Trek show--And then were treated like they were on TNG.

[@JosephDavies]

Well said.

[@logancrocker3749]

I just remembered an alternate character success story, VOY Season 2 episode "Deadlock". The "our" Harry Kim dies and for the rest of the series, we are actually seeing the "other" Harry.

[@skutch2439]

Tuvix is mentioned again though. Naomi Wildman tells the borg children about the events in the final season in a "I know something you don't know" kind of way.

[@johnwhite8535]

I'd enjoy your take on the following. In TNG's "Suddenly Human" Picard sends the human Jono back to his adoptive Talarian father and not back to his biological family while in DS9 Sisko sends the Cardassian child Rugal back to his biological family and not to his adoptive father even though, like Jono, he wanted to stay with the people that adopted him. It's another moral quagmire like Tuvix.

[@Alresu]

Funny thing about the variant with cloning Tuvix: It would just double the problem. Now you have two Tuvixes who both want to live. The clone would still be an individual.

[@windwalker5765]

Not really. This isn't the same situation as twins, or a movie like The Island. Will and Thomas Riker were the same individual until different experiences over time made them distinct. The duplication of Riker and the separation of Tuvix both happened in the amount of time it takes to beam someone. So there would be two Tuvixes... for at most five seconds. To be humane about it, Tuvix should be anesthetized first, so whichever Tuvix is being split will never even be conscious. The more important distinction is that there would still be one Tuvix, instead of none at all.

[@kayleewisner1866]

Transporter-duplicating Tuvix wouldn't fix the problem anyway. Like "hello, Tuvixes one and two! Nice to meet you! You're probably wondering why there's a duplicate of you here. To answer that question with another question, which one of you wants to die so we can get our buddies back?" We know that transporter duplicates are distinct individuals because of Thomas Riker. So you still have to sacrifice someone to get Tuvok and Neelix back, and I'm betting that neither Tuvix would want to take one for the team.

[@Nimelennar]

Since both are transporter accidents, you would just need to do both at the same time. Tuvix goes in, Tuvix and Neelix and Tuvok all come out the other side. No intermediate second Tuvix required.

[@thescifiZipacna]

You make Tuvix 1 and Tuvix 2 (T1 & T2) do Rock-Paper-Scissors-Lizard-Spock. Obviously.

[@TheWarrrenator]

That would still be a compelling and still tragic ending.

[@Robocopnik]

It's like that old saying, can't make a Tuvok and Neelix without crackin' a Tuvix.

[@kayleewisner1866]

@@Nimelennar I mean, I suppose that could work. It'd be a messy and difficult time, but maybe. That still leaves the problem of where Tuvok and Neelix came from; even if you do it all at once, the duplication is still part of it, and that'd be a shot at an existential crisis for all three of them. But it could work.

[@D21BeastReviews]

Furthering the idea that nothing mattered on Voyager: Icheb! The poor kid overcame assimilation, grew into an individual, excelled at his studies, finally found his people only realize his parents didn't want him, and then he makes it back to the Alpha Quadrant only to be horrendously killed so that Seven of Nine can become a murderous Bounty Hunter. What was the point of Icheb's journey after that? And now every time you watch that bright young mind on Voyager again, all you can do is think about how he'll get murdered someday. Wonderful.

[@CharlyDeamen]

Yea I found that part of the plot rather distasteful, it was cheap, null, and void. A hollowing of something simply for the shock value and "cheap motivation". Like honestly, I want to think that Seven could have been properly motivated even without that atrocity they committed to poor Icheb. Honestly, it almost feels to me like the writers thought that a woman can't just make up her mind to do something, she has to be "properly compelled". There is such a thing as working too hard for character motivation. Sometimes people do big things on little reasons. I should think that what was done to the other ex-Borg would have worked just as fine.

[@alexturlais8558]

I mean, I kind of disagree with you there. People die. That happens. Doesnt mean their journey is pointless.

[@arklestudios]

I wonder if part of the reason Icheb got the brutal treatment he did was as backlash against his original actor being a colossal douchebag. Though if that were true they'd have probably brought him back in the role just so they could watch him suffer as opposed to re-casting.

[@nathanieldaiken1064]

Yep. Pointlessly murdered!

[@D21BeastReviews]

@@arklestudios I mean, that’s 100% the real-life reason. But as far as the character of Icheb goes, they could have just never brought him back. Instead, it was more important for the creative team to put on a petty display to clap back at the original actor. Two wrongs don’t make a right and all. They could have just as easily recast Icheb and given him a happily ever after and still never brought him back again. Seven could have even mourned the loss of someone we’ve never met before. But the writers don’t want to put that kind of effort into the show. It’s much easier to kill off Maddox, Hugh, and Icheb - characters that fans already have a decades-long attachment to - and ride the coattails of Berman era Trek to make your viewers feel any kind of stakes in your new show.

[@marcdavies7046]

I think "Tuvix" was Voyager's attempt to do an "In the Pale Moonlight" moral quandary: where a Starfleet Captain sacrifices their moral principles and self-respect to perform some immoral act that nonetheless serves the greater good. There are two essential problems. The first is Star Trek's uncomfortably anti-clone biases, as you noted; I simply think this is an area where writers haven't really thought through the ethics as well as they could have. The second is that in Voyager, the whole crew is complicit in the act. Sisko's choice works because it makes him a sin-eater: it is an act of self-sacrifice that diminishes him, but keeps the Federation safe in its ignorance. The only person who knows is Garak (someone far more comfortable with the idea of being a sin-eater); this is the lonely company Sisko's conscience must now keep. While Janeway does perform the procedure that kills Tuvix herself, the rest of the crew either assist her or stand by as she does it. They're not innocent, not even the Doctor, as you say. Nor is it that the events aren't spoken about again. The moral cost of Sisko's actions are never explored after "In the Pale Moonlight"; but the episode does a good enough job of portraying Sisko as deeply tormented and troubled by his choice. It is easy for we viewers to understand how this becomes part of Sisko's moral tapestry. In Janeway's case, it's an act of obvious moral hypocrisy and the only hint we really get are a bunch of awkward silences and a brief haunted expression. Big deal. She probably went to her Ready room, had a coffee, and forgot all about it, as far as the viewer is concerned.

[@himonightbreeze]

I think Lt. Thomas, Riker's transporter doppel, had the best possible outcome for a Trek doppel. He got reassigned and reassimilated into Starfleet, able to happily live his own life. (If you don't consider he's probably heartbroken over Troi since she was the only thing he could cling to for his sanity while isolated on the station where they found him.)

[@gapsule2326]

Spoiler for DS9... In DS9 he joins the Maquis and ends up in a Cardassian labor camp...

[@himonightbreeze]

@@gapsule2326 Still better than being dead.

[@Nickelodeon81]

​@@himonightbreeze They never rescued him. He's probably dead.

[@tyerichardson]

I believe what annoyed me most about the situation with Tuvix is the fact that, there are known ways to duplicate a person using the transporter so that Tuvix could have been saved and yet splitting him back to Nelix and Tuvok. So the murder wasn't even Needed!

[@BrianDickens4]

You'd then still be killing one of the Tuvixes (am I saying that correctly? 😋).

[@VeraTheTabbynx]

​@@BrianDickens4not necessarily, considering splitting him apart also used the transporter. Instead of duplicating Tuvix and then splitting the duplicate, duplicate Tuvok and Neelix from Tuvix in one step. If they did it right, they could put Tuvix in, and have Tuvix, Tuvok, and Neelix come out.

[@deanmottershead9208]

it would have avoided Tuvix having to die but I think he would have had to leave the ship anyway Tuvix had Nelix and Tuvok's memories I think that would have gotten really awkward, especially regarding Kes and Tuvok's wife I think a better way to handle it would have been to have not made it so that Tuvok's memories were not perfectly transferred or to have actually have dealt with the fallout of that the crew were all effectively murderers

[@puttanesca621]

In the later episode "Riddles" they almost re-visit Tuvix. Tuvok and Nelix are on an away mission, Tuvoc suffers memory loss and becomes child-like and expresses an emotional friendship with Nelix. This is the closest Nelix gets to anyone on the ship after Kes leaves and at the end, just like in the Tuvix episode, Tuvok and Nelix's connection is broken when Tuvok is cured.

[@ZuluRomeo]

I liked that episode.

[@n.d.324]

I actually quite like how static the TNG characters are. It reminds me of Old Doyle's Sherlock Holmes series. Even though Watson is living with his wife, he still joins Holmes in his sitting room to solve mysteries. For the reader it's like meeting an old friend just to realize that he hasn't changed a bit. Same goes for TNG.

[@TechGroupF430i]

@Steve Shives - 23:11 - So basically, the "Full Metal Alchemist" argument, complete with a different _kind_ of mess than what usually occurs during "equivalent exchange".

[@Seal0626]

Don't hold back, Steve. Tell us how you really feel.

[@turquoise9706]

He's so reserved and shy. It would be nice to see him really vocalize those inner convictions now and then XD

[@gottfriedwegemuller3223]

@@turquoise9706 yeah we need to get more of Steve's essence 👌

[@shenhurst]

Janeway should have looked everyone in sickbay dead in the eyes and just said, "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one. Take it up with Spock." and energized the transporter.

[@ethankennan212]

Regarding the “Tele-clone Tuvix and split the clone” idea, I actually feel like that would also be unethical. The second Riker had all the memories of the first Riker up until the split. As such, the second Tuvix would too, and would likely want to live just as much as the first one does.

[@hughmilner7013]

I love the "uh huh huh you're intolerant towards intolerance, so much for the tolerant left" arguments, because they always act like it's this big "gotcha" reveal and we're all just like "well yeah, this was part of Building a Tolerant Society 101 and you skipped that class."

[@Donnagata1409]

It's not right to discriminate people for things that are outside of their control (i.e., age, gender, sexual orientation, physical or mental ability...) It is perfectly right to discriminate people who are (or are acting as) assholes. Couldn't put it better myself. EDIT - Two comments: - I have a close family member who has a bipolar condition and yes, Mariner does indeed fit the profile. - Thanks for explaining the "girlfriend from Canada" injoke! That was very funny! In my country it would have been the "USS Marseille", because the closest equivalent would be "a girlfriend/boyfriend from France".

[@janedoe9174]

Alright, honest question here since it pretty much always seems to be an exception or oversight with these kinds of principles... How do you feel about non-criminal pedophiles?

[@thedj67]

@@janedoe9174 Pedophilia is a moral problem only because of consent. As a society we agree that a child cannot consent to sex with an adult and so it should be illegal. Even though most peoples' response is disgust from the pedophile, it is not he basis of the condemnation. It's just a special case of rape or sexual assault.

[@andrewxc1335]

Episode 9 had me reeling. I was with Tendi: Mariner went WAY over the line, and after she was done with her "therapy," I was really hesitant to trust her throughout the last episode.

[@neolexiousneolexian6079]

@@andrewxc1335 She was stopped by a clone of herself, though. She tried very hard to convince herself that she was as bad as she was acting, only to finally admit that she's just insecure.

[@crystalfajman3732]

One of my favorite episodes of DS9 is the episode where Bashir is attacked by a telepathic alien, and other members of the crew represent various parts of his personality.

[@sugakunoneko]

Hey, uh, I get that there's a kind of moral arithmetic that transporter cloning Tuvix to have Tuvix 1 + Tuvix 2 ==> Tuvix 1 + Tuvok + Neelix. I get that this preserves each of those unique characters "properly," but....which Tuvix do you murder to re-make Tuvok and Neelix? The first one or the transporter clone? Both...Tuvix.ess. Tuvices? Each Tuvox is his own person, so even though you may want to have your Tuvox and split him too, you still have to murder *A* Tuvox to get the job done. You might be able to convince me if it's done entirely while Tuvox is unconscious? Or if it's done in a split second all inside the transporter buffer? This seems like a satisfying moral conclusion to the problem, although from a story and showrunning perspective, this would be very difficult to continue with.

[@DoctorProph3t]

Is it murder if you clone your murder victim first? Yes.

[@ericjette2435]

I had the same thought as Jonathan. Along the same lines, the novel Kiln People by David Brin explores the idea of making temporary copies of yourself, so you can send your copy to work while you go to the beach, or you can make your copy do chores while you watch TV. The problem is that your copy has the same thoughts and feelings as you do at the time you make a copy of yourself. So if you may a copy to avoid going to work because you don't feel like it, your copy doesn't want to go to work either. After going through the copying process, you don't initially know which one you are, the original or the copy. If you discover that you're the copy, well then it sucks to be you because you've got to go to work even though you really want to go to the beach just as much as your original.

[@voidmaelstrom]

I could see only one way that it could 'not' be murder: 1) Place Tuvix in a pattern buffer for more than a few seconds (Montomery Scott got it to work for over 70 years though his companion did not survive). 2) Recreate the exact same (unusual and unique) conditions of the Riker/Riker refraction effect. You now have Tuvix One and Two in pattern buffers. 3) Split a Tuvix into Tuvok and Neelix, reassemble all three. Tuvok, Neelix and Tuvix might share a few days worth of residual memories, but none of them 'died', nor does Tuvix remember being 'murdered'. The ethical minefield is no worse than what happens in a regular transport-full continuity of consciousness from 'on planet' to 'on starship'. Now the Bad News: The Riker Incident was a unique event . Recreation of such would require detailed analysis of all planetary/atmospheric variables, years of research and then testing on non-sapient lifeforms...all to open up an ethical can of existential worms very few would want to open (remember the standard Starfleet reaction to Cloning?). Even a badly-written episode of Voyager should not have the crew successfully duplicate the Riker incident with the limited data and technology they have in Delta Quadrant-either Janeway is scientist enough to know better (she is) or the resulting explosion of organic sludge that used to be Tuvok, Neelix and/or Tuvix should be enough to provoke a ship-wide Mutiny. Sorry.

[@neolexiousneolexian6079]

If you keep the Tuvixes in stasis or kill them quickly enough, they won't have time to diverge and develop any uniqueness. Like if you have two completely identical books, destroying one won't kill the story. The real answer is "Whatever Tuvix consents to", though.

[@nathanieldaiken1064]

The sad thing is, Tuvix, is seen in episode begging for his life.

[@CaptainPikeachu]

Talos 4 is listed as a travel destination on a shuttle in TNG, so it would seem like the general order 7 for that region was lifted eventually, possibly with Pike’s help in rebuilding Talosian society Also with Trip’s clone, the “upside” to that situation was that Sim chose to die to save Trip, so at the very least no one forced him in the end, he got to make a choice and have agency in his ultimate fate, which not a lot of duplicates got to make.

[@TheRanblingjohnny]

As for the Voyager crew not spending all their holodeck time back on Earth I think they did. This is what Fair Heaven was for, why it became so popular that they were running it on a open session at some point.

[@CornishJas]

Regarding voyager missing the opportunity to have the crew come to terms with their situation or use the holodeck etc to process this emotionally made me realise that Discovery now in season 3 is basically fufilling that original premise. The crew is now forever and irreversibly separated from home and are all having to process that.

[@f0rth3l0v30fchr15t]

Exocomps: "We've got this thing about death. It's... not us"

[@BioGoji-zm5ph]

That's nice, Barf. Now prepare for the transporter procedure.

[@francoislacombe9071]

"....because I despise conspiracy theories, I despise conspiracy theorists, and there are very very few groups of people to my mind that are more deserving of ruthless, mean spirited, remorseless mockery than conspiracy theorists." I am very much looking forward to the next Late Seating episode and your comments about Brigadier General Jack Ripper. It should be delicious. 😉👍

[@galecaie928]

To be fair, some conspiracies are true. Like Watergate. And some do deserve to be looked at and considered. Like JFK, Priness Diana, and Marilyn Monroe. But most are kind of silly.

[@mrsialeipata8615]

@@galecaie928 Silly and harmless conspiracies are what used to be in the old subreddit for conspiracy, nowadays it's just Trump supporters and trolls.

[@gydemusic]

Since they worked out how to reverse-engineer the transporter accident, couldn't they re-merge Tuvix for one day every year, maybe on Kes's birthday. And thanks again for keeping the channel progressive and inclusive. Keep on being the "smug bastard" that the world needs :)

[@GordonDymowski]

As much as I enjoyed and value your videos, I gained a *lot* of respect for you when I caught a glimpse of Tom Servo over your left shoulder. It's good to know that not only are you an excellent KZbin creator, but you have the greatest of inspirations. Kudos, good sir!

[@ElmerCat]

I love "Move Along Home" because it's one in which Sisko sings.

[@varanasiwalks1451]

SS: "It's fine to make up a plot as it goes along!" Battlestar Galactica reboot: [exhales a cloud of smoke]

[@avatarofaiyel]

Exceptions for when there being a plan is an important part of your plot from the get go.

[@JosephDavies]

@@avatarofaiyel I'd say it comes down to not introducing mystery elements without at least having some idea of what they mean. You might change your mind, but if they don't mean anything when you put them in, they have no hope of being consistent and that's deadly for a mystery. LOST, despite the parts it did well, suffered because of this too.

[@markjreed]

@@avatarofaiyel "...and they have a plan.(*)" (*) Unfortunately, we don't.

[@alanpennie]

​@@markjreed Exactly. It was the incongruity of this statement, repeated at the beginning of every episode, that grated.

[@JanetDax]

The thing about Tuvix is that there was never any consequences. No indication that the experience ever happened. No having Neelix and Tuvok gaining a better understanding of each other. It was just a reset button episode. Or a GNDN episoide. "Goes nowhere, does nothing."

[@lostbutfreesoul]

Welcome to episodic content of the era. There is many reasons why this occurred, others talk about it better so I won't go into details, but so many series suffered from this fault during that time period. I am just glad we are past it, with stories told through multiple episodes, as they are is far more engaging then something that tries to wrap everything up in 30 minutes or less. Binge watching for the win....

[@RizzoF21344]

I recently started watching your videos and then took a little break for the end of the presidential campaign. Just wanted to say how refreshing it is for you to be so upfront with your opinions. Maybe I like them because I agree but it's still very nice to hear. Especially from a fellow Sci-fi lover.

[@JosephKerr27]

Thanks for providing this much needed distraction, Steve! I'll stop checking the polls for 39 minutes now...

[@Comradetau1]

I would love to hear your take on the Enterprise episode 2x22 Cogenitor. I looked around on Reddit and many people said that they liked the episode. I personally was shocked by the ending and cannot understand how anyone of us or the crew of the Enterprise can still look at Archer without wanting to John Brown his ass. In my opinion episode and people try to sidestep the issue by talking about cultural differences, non interference and gender when it really comes down to Archer returning escaped sex slave back to it's slave masters. Thus I was surprised to find out that many people on the internet took Archer's side on the debate. How do you feel about the episode?

[@Seal0626]

I find Cogenitor horrific, personally. Archer is pretty much a villain at the end, with no redeeming features. Seems to me that crucial difference between people who love the episode and those who hate it is whether you think of Charles as a person, or a plot device.

[@MrMindYourFB]

It's funny how the principal of non-interference gets discarded whenever personal feelings come into play. You empathize with the character, therefore your assessment of the cultural situation trumps that of the alien perspective. The federation would never have existed if archer and co constantly tell other cultures they are fucked up

[@neolexiousneolexian6079]

@@MrMindYourFB Asylum is a thing. Should we have tolerated the "alien perspective" of facism taking over Europe? Should we now refrain from telling China their "culture" of taking over other countries' waters and threatening to invade Taiwan is "fucked up"? The Federation would have never existed if it had chosen to appease the Klingon culture of invading everyone they come across.

[@nerdicorntheshipper2885]

I hate that episode so much

[@pakese30]

And Janeway becomes an admiral once she returned. StarFleet really needs the upper brass cleaned out.

[@k1productions87]

Not only was I not expecting the "Kenny Omega reference" part, but that "just off the top of my head, Jim Cornette" literally had me laughing out loud

[@michaels.9871]

Thank you Mr. Shives, this will stop me from anxiously hitting refresh on my news site for 40 minutes. I really needed that right now!

[@fje6902]

As I recall that episode Commodore Mendez tells Kirk that contacting Talos IV was the only death penalty left on the books.

[@lexxstrum]

Just watched the 3rd episode of the 3rd season of DISCO, and hearing your comments about the missed opportunities to explore the effects of isolation and separation on the VOY crew makes me appreciate the writers of DISCO giving us a whole episode of showing the loss an isolated crew can and would feel.

[@PrincessAmi9756]

Disclaimer haven't watched the video yet: Let's see, fixed Tuvix... make him super unstable, like he was going to die anyway, but he wanted to live out his remaining days as himself, rather then being split in two; so it's not a choice between killing someone and saving two people, it's the choice between honoring the wishes of someone who's time is almost up, or saving two people; or just have Tuvix stick around for the rest of the series, either way.

[@andiralosh2173]

In addition, Tuvix was a unique life form, and likely more effective as a person than either of his individual 'parents.' Emotionally balanced and yet not annoying. Perfect

[@imthestein]

Can we one day address the Space Colonialism of Voyager where everyone had to accept the greatness of humanity in their hearts and if they didn’t they were clearly bad and primitive?

[@charllandsberg]

I've never watched Gilligan's Island and I feel like I missed out on something :P

[@BioGoji-zm5ph]

Eh, just watch a few episodes. Don't worry about the entirety of the show. Jus a few episodes, and you'll pretty much understand everything you need to know. It's... very much like Voyager, where there's a constant reset button between episodes.

[@johnquiett1085]

"I repeat myself." That was savage but also spot on and correct. Good work, sir. Keep on doing what you do.

[@davidsnyder518]

I needed this on this post election day 💙

[@alexthomas6602]

Imma need these every day for the next 4 years I think fuck face won

[@bodhimind108]

@@alexthomas6602 give it more time. That's what I'm telling myself.

[@cryofpaine]

@@bodhimind108 it's turning around. Barely. It's close, but knock on wood, if his leads hold, he has 270 exactly.

[@nibrocnoel3240]

Steve Shives would be better than both major parties.

[@davidthomas2870]

@@cryofpaine we got there friends

[@PrincessSlytherClaw]

The best part of Lower Decks is seeing a different perspective, like, I wouldn't believe half the stuff if we hadn't seen it and a friend was just telling me over coffee. There might be a different level of disbelief, like I'd believe most of it but a void in space? A recuperated Borg? Turing into a lizard if you go too fast?

[@TalenLee]

So Move Along Home gets a special place of intense rage from me, someone who didn't like DS9 _that much_. This is in part, because my field of study is Game Studies, and there's this book called Gaming The Stage, which is about how games work in theatre and storytelling. The long and short of it is that Move Along Home does _everything_ wrong as far as 'ways to use a game that make the story better for the audience.' This is especially galling because DS9 is, again, as a games studies nerd, responsible for holding one of the BEST episodes of a TV show that uses a game I've literally ever seen, with Take Me Out To The Holodeck (or whatever, I'm not looking it up rn, you know the one I mean). Literally, you could write an essay on how to use games in storytelling WELL based on just extrapolating those lessons to Take Me Out. Also, yeah, Mariner having An Episode is exactly what that episode looked like to me.

[@Stardust_7273]

What would be really interesting to see would be a crew member who had used the holodeck the way it was suggested, to interact with loved ones and friends, and then a character develops holoaddiction and later speaks with Reg Barclay about it and he tries to help them since he can obviously empathize.

[@earmixon]

300 speaks to me as a low key (unofficial) but very clearly intentional Stargate SG-1 prequel. From that viewpoint it's actually a cool movie. I mean come on, Xerxes is pretty obviously meant to be a Goa'uld, which is made even more clear by his origin in the sequel.

[@johnchedsey1306]

Voyager's concept needed to be realized in the more current era of TV making (ie: serialized versus episodic). Voyager's story should have been a long arc, with each season telling a different aspect of their journey. I still think it's one of the best ST show concepts but perhaps now ahead of its time.

[@lordkayx]

BTW would have waited till a stream to say this, but Ill just keep forgetting. You are a great orator. The videos where you make cases for an issue are eloquent, forceful yet comfortable, well worded, and really make me think how I would vote for you if you ran for anything. Hope you consider bringing your insight to this post prosperous America.

[@kericmason]

There is also the song from Avenue Q where the singer has a girlfriend who lives in Canada: "Her name is Alberta, she lives in Vancouver." I haven't watched Lower Decks yet, but it would amuse me if the girlfriend was named Alberta.

[@ahhlewis]

Couldn't you use the cloning method with teleporters to clone more crewmates

[@sinswhisper9588]

i tend to find that the first season (of ANY show) generally is considered the worst in series comparison -- and that is mostly because we as the viewer are not yet familiar with the cast, just as most of the cast may or may not be familiar with each other or comfortable in the role they portray in that first season

[@andscifi]

The problem with the lower decks joke making fun of conspiracy theorists was that it was actually far more rooted in reality than most conspiracy theories after all the Borg cube was arguably being run by a officer of the federation.

[@drachasor]

With Tuvix, they should have just had him eventually decide he can't live with himself if his existence requires the death of two others. He should have chosen to get separated. Heck, maybe, in the end, he should have chosen that over the objections of others. You can't have it be unstable the moral difficulty of the episode loses it's meaning.

[@faeriebunny1429]

I find, at least when it comes to writing, that having it all planned out can suck the life out of it. It's more exciting and joyful to make up new things as you go.

[@salenstormwing]

22:23 "I'm glad they didn't take this easy way out." Me: Yeah, leave that stuff for all the other Voyager episodes. Janeway: "Behold as I hit the reset button now that we've taken the easy way out... again!"

[@BioGoji-zm5ph]

Now, eat Harry Kim! Eat Harry Kim!

[@Bolsonaro_em_Haia]

It is a bit disconcerting that one of the characters to show the most significant, realistic change along time is in fact Thomas Riker. Who made all of two appearances separated by just eighteen months.

[@memoryalphamale]

There are real problems with writing narrative fiction without an outline. I can think of two examples of this in recent popular epic fantasy novels. Perhaps there is something to be said for having a savage editor? Thanks for your work Steve. Peace and long life. Keep on comrades:)

[@SirWussiePants]

Steve: You can make it up as you go along... Lost: um....

[@carldeithorn3450]

Fake it 'till you make it! Right? ✌

[@morrisfoston2]

The problem with joking on conspiracy theories is when they found to be true; when they are conspiracy fact. I'm from Tuskegee and a descendant of a participant of the Tuskegee Syphilis Study where the US government and medical communities conspired with each other.

[@freddiefox.]

Brilliant point about not carrying through with the effects of Tuvix's death and the effect that would have had on the other characters. How powerful would it have been for Tuvok, say, to visit Janeway in her cabin and find her looking at pictures of Tuvix? They could have had a conversation about Tuvix. "Do you miss him?" asks Tuvok, and so on. "What was he like?" - the obvious questions one might ask a close friend about somebody they used to know but is now deceased. And then Janeway might say, shocked, "Don't you remember?" and Tuvok would reply, "I have no memory of the period from when we beamed up from [wherever it was] until I stepped out of the transporter after Mr. Neelix and I were separated. It would have been realistic too, to see, in the following couple of episodes, some other crew members coming to terms with what happened, such as Tom Paris for instance, and Harry Kim. Although Voyager was episodic they did toy with repeating themes/arcs - the Kazon years; Holodeck Bar in Marseille; Holodeck Fairhaven; Borg territory; The Hirogen; Tom and B'Elanna, and so on. The whole show was a story arc after all - their journey home, so there was plenty of scope to explore how losing a crew member affected the remaining crew, without having to kill one of the main cast. A missed opportunity perhaps. Having said that, it's a standout episode that fans like us are still discussing years later.

[@camortie]

Something i thought about while you were reading comments for your tuvix episode was that it is possible that after what happened janeway decided to enact the same protocols that spock recommended in the season 2 finally of discovery. We already know that they did something similar with the doctor concerning the crew woman that he had to sacrifice in order to save kim.

[@Barot8]

All Star Trek needs to stop using the time travel trope. Here's a better solution for fixing Tuvix. Ideally spread his story across 3 to 5 episodes. The crew accepts him. Somewhere around episode 3 he starts having nightmares as Tuvak and Neelix's exist in his subconscious. On the fourth episode he's having their memories and thoughts break him into a mess. The doctor diagnoses a sort of schizophrenia that will destroy him. That he can drug him severely which would render him a shadow of himself but eventually he will go insane. Episode 5 Tuvix pleads for the spilt. The trauma is too much for him. Janeway reluctantly allows it. The crew all get to say their farewells. After Tuvak and Neelix return there is joy but also sadness and each of the crew regret the loss of Tuvix.

[@scottbutler5]

I'm not sure I can go along with the "Neelix and Tuvok are already dead" interpretation of Tuvix. It would be just as accurate to frame Tuvix as something like an invasive parasite stealing life from Tuvok and Neelix, something like TOS Return to Tomorrow or TNG Power Play but where the invasive entity isn't the villain and didn't do it on purpose. Then the episode becomes something like "What if a brain tumor was sentient and asked you to stop giving chemotherapy to its host?" I think the Tuvix issue can be framed in many interesting and complex ways, none of which have easy or simple answers. And "Janeway murdered Tuvix!" is a very easy and simple answer.

[@julietteangeli]

I think you make a really good point. The cake analogy doesn't work for me because in this case it actually IS possible to separate it back into the ingredients.

[@rhinoburger]

I’ve never considered Tuvok and Neelix to be dead. I considered them to be in a state like purgatory within Tuvix’s mind. So by killing Tuvix freed them.

[@turquoise9706]

I've always wondered about that. Were they stuck that way inside Tuvix? Were they in some kinda limited-conscious state inside him? Had the two themselves, coming together within Tuvix, made peace with the merge? All questions the episode could've answered to help us get a better understanding of what was at stake.

[@slothfulcobra]

They weren't dead. Nobody was mourning them. Their bodies weren't cold and lifeless, they were walking around the ship being piloted by a temporary persona. It wasn't an episode about them having any personal worth or value to the ship anyways, because if they did, there would've been a real loss to the ship by losing their capabilities

[@TheWarrrenator]

And what about Tuvok’s Vulcan katra?

[@BioGoji-zm5ph]

@@TheWarrrenator It was at risk of being contaminated by merging with Neelix. Janeway saved Tuvok's katra by separating him from Neelix.

[@susanscott8653]

If their DNA was merged into Tuvix and he's alive, then they must be alive IMO. But shouldn't there have been DNA left over? Maybe they could have created another Tuvix and split that one in the transporter before he materializes. 🤔

[@MusicFan0136]

The real crime against Tuvix, was how he wasn't allowed any development beyond the single episode.

[@eyerobot6622]

Explaining a manic episode for Laypersons 12-36 hours of EVERYTHING'S A GOOD IDEA AND NEEDS TO BE DONE NOW! NOW! NOW! followed by hours or days of and suddenly I'm depressed

[@theduckcompany]

Hey any chance late seating could be put up on KZbin? I never really like podcast apps.

[@Samcf9]

I liked the speech from 8:11 to 10:56. I think you put that very well. Cheers, mate.

[@thesnicklefritzhideout9800]

I think my favorite thing about watching these-- because they're all really well done, and I enjoy them-- is knowing I'm not welcome. 😊

[@arklestudios]

"....because I despise conspiracy theories, I despise conspiracy theorists, and there are very very few groups of people to my mind that are more deserving of ruthless, mean spirited, remorseless mockery than conspiracy theorists." I couldn't agree more. I know this because I used to *be* one of those people. From roughly 2004 to 2007, I was a 9/11 Truther. I'm better now, thank you. Granted, some could argue I was never really that far down that rabbit hole as I was never in the "Bush orchestrated the attacks" camp; I was always more in the "they knew what was coming, but let it happen" camp. But still. I am not proud of this period of my life, but I don't try to hide it. Especially since it allows me the opportunity to dunk on Alex Jones. See, I first learned of him before he went mainstream, when his ads played on a Truther podcast I listened to at the time. And even then, *even then*, I would hear this guy talking and think "This guy is fucking nuts."

[@homerreitz4847]

I have watched your program and have enjoyed your commentary due to your open minded manor in which you allow to stay in control of the flow of your program.meaning you will state your opinions however at the same time acknowledging those veiwing that segments' topic not may but will have a different view their for that's a very mature and welcome breath of fresh air for me personally thank you very much for your programs topics and for the research/effort/educated you put into each one.that is why I subscribed hopefully you will continue.

[@Aezetyr]

The duplicate Riker (TNG "Second Chances", DS9 "Defiant") had an opportunity to make an awesome life for himself, but he ended up joining a terrorist group, murdering a bunch of people, then getting turned over to the Cardassians. A sad fate for a duplicate, indeed, but in this case it was by his own volition.

[@lorcannagle]

Something tells me you're not going to get very far into DS9, or you'll have to find a show to replace Firefly in short order.

[@faltarego617]

Two unrelated points: 1) They should have kept Tuvix. He was a much more interesting character than either of the original components. 2) I live in Canada, and I stupidly did not clue in to the U.S.S. Vancouver being a high-tech "girlfriend from Canada" joke. I thought it was a reference to the fact that sooooo many SF shows are filmed in Vancouver. Addendum: Steve, you are frickin' hilarious. I love your stuff.

[@SantaBJ]

Those "so much for the tolerant left" comments - and all their variations - are never, ever made in good faith.

[@Saugerdees]

They are just hoping to take advantage of the "Paradox of Tolerance" en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance The paradox of tolerance states that if a society is tolerant without limit, its ability to be tolerant is eventually seized or destroyed by the intolerant. Karl Popper described it as the seemingly paradoxical idea that "In order to maintain a tolerant society, the society must be intolerant of intolerance."

[@mwk22bath]

You are making the same mistake Shives does in thinking you know the minds of everyone that disagrees with you.

[@DaBerm87]

Thanks for mentioning my comment! :-)

[@JoniWalker42]

He never has seen Firefly except the first couple of episodes... Dude that means you´ve seen Furefly completly. ARRRRGGGHHHHH THEY CANCELLED IT TOO SOON!!!!!!

[@Match451]

Tuvix’s condition was reversible. And it could also be recreated. The moral solution is to do a timeshare. One week Tuvix, and one week Tuvik and Neelix, switching off. Also, you temporarily die every time you use a transporter.

[@meiketorkelson4437]

"It's okay to just make it up as you go along ..." Me, forming a thought bubble containing the "X-Files" and "Lost". Lol.

[@THX-C]

Wow, now I know why I don't like LotR or fantasy as a genre but really like Trek and various forms of sci-fi. I really appreciate the work you've put into the channel and a lot of the comments are great.

[@gferraro2916]

@29:22 the funnier thing is that in Italy when someone (especially kids) say they have something they couldn't possibly have (be it a s/o, a PS7, the iPhone 30 or whatever) we say "well they can't show it to you, because they have it in America"

[@ae121584]

If had I those orchids and a transporter i would have spent all my time trying to combo stuff up. Mix a steak and a carrot, or a cat and a dog, or even try to mix myself and my wife for a weekend and see where THAT goes

[@kittenclaws5775]

I will say of Tuvix, The Doctor should have not allowed the procedure, destroying it if necessary. In medicine, consent is the final say for any conscious patient. Period. If, for example, someone agrees to give a kidney to save a life, they can , until the moment they're put under, at anytime say "No, nope. Stop." Hell, I could agree to give a life-saving transfusion, which will not hurt me, to a person who will die if I don't give, and the blood could be halfway up the needle and I can say "no, stop. And, knowing that stopping that line kills the other person, ensures beyond doubt their death, so great is the importance of a person's right to consent, that that procedure stops. The doctor was harmfully neglectful in allowing that procedure.

[@Cedrickr]

If wishes were horses is one of my favorite episodes from season 1! Sisko just seems so happy to chat with Bok Bokai!

[@superdaddy1973]

Any chance you can do a video discussing Star Trek New Frontier?

[@timothyvanburen3431]

I ALSO get a kick out of "Move Along Home" and feel like it's not nearly as bad as people say. THANK YOU for saying so.

[@bobmathis-friedman6742]

Thank you, Steve; these responses to the comments made my day!!

[@sarahlamoureux1454]

My response to the "inclusivity" comment: intolerance of intolerance of an acceptable thing is not morally equivalent to intolerance of an acceptable thing.

[@albineigengrau3212]

The idea of people on a space ship cut off from their home and losing themselves in a sort of holodeck program, was actually explored in an independent Swedish sf film called Aniara. It's a terrific film if you can cope with boundless pessimism.

[@Nealetony]

In tuvix the other two were alive through tuvix but splitting them into their individual parts literally seen that existence cease to exists.

[@clarewillison9379]

Regarding the sad demise of Tuvix (RIP), no one seems to care about the poor orchid life lost in the process. I’d like us to take a moment...😔🙏🏼

[@RandallStephens397]

Did Steve miss the part of the joke where Wolf 359 actually was an inside job?