Has Star Trek: Discovery Been Erased From Canon?! | Trek, Actually Comment Responses

[@FilmCram]

With nobody using the word 'Borg' in the Enterprise episode, I can completely believe that it got filed away as a strange infectious robot alien hive incident that simply didnt have the right version of space meta-data and keywords to pop up in a TNG background check.

[@chuckyhindle1877]

Agreed - and also I am not sure if this was mentioned but it is (maybe too) obvious, these were relatively ancient Borg so the weakness was probably patched later. Not a reason for the chronologically later shows not to reference the incident (we have to fall back on the Doylian response there, or else it was just classified and misfiled and lost like you say), but a reason for the fix not being used / useful again maybe. And they did lampshade First Contact, which is nice. The 200-year signal sent to the Delta Borg is another issue. But maybe it passed through some enlightened species' system and they squashed the transmission for us? Any number of explanations can be made up!

[@The_Lucent_Archangel]

@@chuckyhindle1877 The signal isn't an issue at all. It was intentional, meant to imply a closed time loop. It took roughly 200 years before the Borg started making small forays into scooping up Fed and Rom outposts in the Neutral Zone and having a proper Cube headed in our direction. The reason it took 200 years is easy enough to figure as being due to a comparatively primitive, underpowered comm array on the ship they assimilated. It was no interplexing beacon, after all. While it's a bit of a retcon of "Q Who?" the idea was to implicitly paint the picture that the Borg were aware of the Federation due to a predestination paradox. This also frames Q snapping the Enterprise-D to encounter the Borg directly before their Cube arrived as a good thing. He provided a warning, which does fit into the original context of that episode.

[@chuckyhindle1877]

@@The_Lucent_Archangel great points!

[@nicholassmith7984]

I think that kind of (necessarily) contrived explanation is one of the reasons prequels in general very rarely work.

[@kevinkeeney9418]

It's just too bad that Dr. Crusher didn't have a vague memory of hearing about a physician being infected with nanobots so that Data could drag the information out of the depths of the archive, the same way Riker vaguely remembered the story about someone being frozen in a shower during "The Naked Now".

[@IanZainea1990]

15:13 you could also say they didn't know what the Borg were called. So any information would have been classified under "unknown organism" or whatever. And after 200 years, may have been lost in a databank somewhere in storage.

[@nicholassmith7984]

Surely they would have taken notes of appearance and behaviour, that a ship computer as powerful as the one on the Enterprise-D could have cross-referenced in its encounter. But the real answer is that it's a plot-hole, because that's what prequels do; create plot-holes.

[@Offbeaten]

The borg may also have found a way to counteract Phlox's trickery. It's 200 years later after all. Borg would have had at least SOME tech progression.

[@jeffbenson7278]

Here's another thing: if that segment in Lower Decks HAD made Discovery non-canon, then wouldn't that also make Strange New Worlds non-canon? But then what about the Strange New Worlds crossover with Lower Decks? Does that then make Lower Decks non-canon? Well, if Lower Decks is non-canon, then how can it make Discovery non-canon? It can't! Which means Discovery, Strange New Worlds, and Lower Decks are re-canonized. But then, if Lower Decks is canon again ... anyway, it's the television version of the Grandfather Paradox.

[@MonsterKidCory]

Yes... Lower Decks can't decanonize Discovery without decanonizing Strange New Worlds and ITSELF in the process. Which means, as I have always said, Secret Hideout shows are not canon and never were canon.

[@edwardallenthree]

Klingons changing their appearance, sometimes radically, was established as cannon in Deep Space Nine. They don't like to talk about it. We should respect their wishes.

[@John-kx9vq]

Honestly think my bigger issue was it changed my perspective on Star Trek and I cannot get it back. Discovery made me think of Klingons as space orcs, Vulcans as space elves, and Romulans as dark space elves.

[@knightofavalon86]

​@@John-kx9vq ...sorry bud but that was true long before Discovery.

[@JDSileo]

Worf does not speak for all Klingons.

[@jeffbenson7278]

I don't believe they use cannons in the 24th century...

[@renatocorvaro6924]

69th like

[@deanthemachine8879]

20:09 to be fair, the CAST was shocked that the director of Nemesis had never watched the show and they kept having to say “yeah, my character would never do that” so it does help to have some amount of understanding of the source material

[@glamourweaver]

That’s a fair point. Tony Gilroy could create the best Star Wars material in decades without being saddled by Filoni’s fanboyisms or Abrams’ nostalgia-baiting, but a key there was focusing on his own original characters. If he’d been building his stories around well established Star Wars characters with more fleshed out personalities than Mon Mothma, his lack of intimacy with the existent material could have turned from a strength that let him innovate to a weakness that led to mischaracterization and misfiring arcs.

[@TheHimble]

Regarding a jobs a job. I remember seeing an interview once with Michael Caine. They were speaking with him about one of his early Hollywood movies that, shall we say, is not highly regarded. The interviewer asked something like "What do you think about it when you watch it." to which Caine replied something along the lines of "I've never seen the movie, but I saw the house that it bought for me. And it was very nice." People still have to make a living.

[@nickholland7402]

That would be Jaws: The Revenge

[@Anaguma79]

This came to my mind, too. The quote is: “I haven't seen it, but I have seen the house it bought my mother, and it's marvelous!"

[@paulgunderson4721]

Bruce Campbell stressed this as well. He's been in his share of fun movies/shows and in his share of stinkers. But he got paid. It was a job.(Read _If Chins Could Kill: Confessions of a B Movie Actor_ if you want more on this.)

[@emergingloki]

Another quote from him you will appreciate: "sometimes, in order to maintain a very high standard of living, you have to make a very low standard of movie".

[@Garry-Drakon-Hickman-ve5]

Thanks to this reply vid, I just came up with how Voyager should have been, by your feelings for it. The episode "The Equinox" was how Voyager should have been. They got f'd up from the beginning, trying to fight their way out of the Delta quadrant, by any means necessary.

[@Suttra_]

It was pretty explicit in explaining that the Borg in "Regeneration" were survivors of the events of First Contact, they even mention Zefram Cochrane talking about it during a Princeton commencement speech. Therefore, Phlox's discovery happened in a timeline changed by those events as opposed to the original timeline where Picard first encountered the Borg. It was impossible for Picard's crew to find reference to it because it didn't happen. We know this is how time travel works in Trek because no one questioned Sisko about looking like Gabriel Bell until after the events of "Past Tense" when Sisko went back in time and had to replace him in history, the change doesn't exist until they do the thing that causes the change. Again, we know this because the Department of Temporal Investigations only show up after the events that cause a change which suggests that changes are detectable. If the the changes were retroactive there would be no way for someone to know that anything had changed. No wonder Janeway hates Temporal Mechanics - no one ever seems to get it ;)

[@MadSpectre47]

Ima watch this, but at 4:55 when he's talking about formulaic stories, the first thing that popped into my head was SNW Memento Mori. We've seen that story so many times in Trek, the classic submarine "Balance of Terror meets Wrath of Khan with a splash of Disaster" episode. Yet, Memento Mori had me genuinely forget all of that for varying amounts of time because the entire thing drew me in. I even forgot for a few seconds that the ship would survive because it's 1701. THAT is great storytelling. I was HOOKED into that episode.

[@bosyber]

Yeah, that latter part is what SNW really tends to do well, which is what makes it a good show.

[@Orlando_from_The_Bronx]

Star Trek Discovery: Season 2 Episode 8 “If Memory Serves” begins “Previously on Star Trek” and proceeds to shows clips from the grandaddy of all Star Trek episodes: The Cage. These clips feature original actors from 1966 and no CGI redressing or changes: Jeffrey Hunter as Pike, Leonard Nimoy as Spock, Majel Barret as Number One, and guest star Susan Oliver as Vina The rest of the episode features Anson Mount (Pike), Ethan Peck (Spock) and Melissa George (Vina) in continuity as those same characters. Rebecca Romjin is not in this episode, but she plays Una Chin Riley (Number One) in other Discovery episodes. The set, props, costumes and makeup effects are all updated to 2019 standards. These same actors then get spun off into Strange New Worlds, except Melissa George as Vina, where they interact with live action Becket Mariner and Bradword Boimler from Lower Decks. You can’t suddenly make Discovery non-canon because of a throwaway, wink-wink, fourth wall break gag in Lower Decks (which I love).

[@GSBarlev]

If you make _Discovery_ non-canon, then _Strange New Worlds_ can't be canon, given how central the events of _Disco_ S02 are to Pike's character arc. And if _SNW_ isn't canon, then _LDS_ can't be canon because of the crossover. And if _LDS_ isn't canon, then _Discovery_ becomes canon again. 🙃

[@protoroc]

Multiverse means everything is canon.

[@DawnDavidson]

@@Orlando_from_The_Bronx Yes, all of those interactions are why I finally went back and held my nose through S1 of Disco so I could catch up with SNW and LD. Because Anson Mount’s Pike is awesome, and so is RR’s Number One. And I personally love LD and thought the crossover and musical episodes of SNW were gold. Then again, I watched all of Buffy and Angel because I got hooked by Once More With Feeling, having seen absolutely none of that franchise first. 😂 (Still think that was a brilliant use of each character/actor’s vocal or dancing abilities. But I digress.) For me, Disco provided context for SNW. Wasn’t great on its own, mostly. But I’d rather watch that than most other non-Trek content out there.

[@onidaaitsubasa4177]

​​@@protoroc Exactly everything is canon, all Lower Decks did was separate the realities, this would also explain why the same characters as well as the Enterprise and even some events and circumstances are different, if anything Lower Decks corrected and made all of the Star Trek shows work and exist as canon.

[@onidaaitsubasa4177]

​@@GSBarlev Hmm so, when they went back in time, could that have affected the reality of that universe somehow, or is it possible that going back in time results in visiting an alternate timeline and reality or maybe visiting an alternate reality and mistaking it for their reality was just a fluke that somehow happened, It would be just like the members of Lower Decks to not only go back in time but also visit an alternate reality. Yeah that's probably what happened.

[@BSRJR]

As far as the Phlox assimilation question goes; As of TNG, Borg assimilation is reversible without a huge “cracking of the code moment” They reversed Picard, they reversed Seven and others and its just accepted that its within their power to do so. Phlox’s research could easily been the basis of Dr. Crusher’s treatment. Just a case study collecting dust on the Star Feet Medical database until Beverly googled “weird nanites” or whatever.

[@shiroamakusa8075]

No, in BoBW it's stated that removing the implants isn't the issue, doing so while the signal from the Collective is still active is. As if they removed them in that state the Collective would consider Locutus to be "damaged" and order a self-destruct. Phlox removes his "assimilation" while there's still an active signal without dying, that's the achievement.

[@SharienGaming]

@@shiroamakusa8075 well in that same vein you could argue that the assimilation hasnt been completed and that there arent sufficient nanites to cause a self destruct - so it might be caught in a logic loop of "self destruct - damage too severe to self destruct fully - build capacity for full destruction" until everything is gone also, since i dont remember the episode... since this is hundreds of years before TNG... shouldnt that mean that the borg are considerably less advanced as well? maybe some of their capabilities that made the reversal so tricky hadnt been assimilated yet

[@shiroamakusa8075]

@@SharienGaming The Borg from the ENT episode are the ones from First Contact who travelled back in time.

[@marcoliver625]

​@shiroamakusa8075 if that's the case - the "signal" may not exist or may be weak because what happened at the ending of first contact?

[@BSRJR]

@@shiroamakusa8075The signal in TNG clearly from the nearby Cube. In Enterprise, there’re no cubes in the quadrant so I feel like that’s enough deniability for my explanation to stand.

[@creativerealms]

Lower decks made a joke about the franchise like it always does. It took a jab at the contentious redesigns of the Klingons in Disco. Anyone trying to find some deeper meaning out of a simple gag missed the point. No they weren't saying Disco isn't part of the main timeline anymore. All they were saying was, "we know these designs are hated so laugh as beloved Klingon designs transform into them "

[@LordDarthHarry]

That's like saying the Soverign, Miranda, Oberth etc aren't canon to the prime timelne because the Cerritos turend into those briefly. Also the same kind of jab at Klingons like when later they ask why the main Klingon ship isn't changing and T'ana says that it probably is but Klingons constantly make their ships look like Birds anyway.

They should do a final episode where at the end it's revealed it was all stories written by Jake Sisko, or just a dream of Morn's after a night of heavy drinking.

[@jaradams]

In my mind, it's all something Bob Newhart dreamed anyway

[@augiegirl1]

They almost did, except it would have been Benny Russell’s writing, but they scraped the idea because it would have meant ALL of Star Trek wouldn't have been real.

[@marquisofcarrabass]

​@augiegirl1 which is ironic, when you consider that all of Star Trek isn't actually real.

[@GSBarlev]

​@@augiegirl1I still want a _Short Trek_ with that premise-and then mitigate the _implications_ with interviews that remind everyone that "Far Beyond the Stars" emphasized that Benny was both the dreamer _and_ the dream.

[@DawnDavidson]

@@marquisofcarrabass Wait. What? ST isn’t REAL??? Say it ain’t so! Waaaaahhhh!!! 😅😂🤣

[@eisenwill]

I wonder how much of the issue with Enterprise "forgetting" what show it was happened because executives (or maybe just Rick Berman) kept it from being all it could have been.

[@rexmundi2986]

While Berman definitely certainly was capable of making blunders on his own, people forget Enterprise was the first Trek since TOS that had network bosses (UPN) and lots of bad decisions, (such as the mandated time travel element) can be traced back to UPN.

[@susanscott8653]

I paused the video to make a similar comment. Not sure if the whole thing can be pinned on Berman though. The executives were suggesting stuff like boy bands in the mess hall. I think Berman had enough experience with Trek to know better than that. B&B wanted the show to have its first season set on Earth but the executives shot the idea down. I think it could have been really good if done well.

[@Jetpackninja]

​@@rexmundi2986It wasn't, though. UPN was literally launched with the premiere of Voyager.

[@Confessor1917]

The better explanation for why no one remembered the Borg is that they're there through Time Travel. When TNG and Picard first meet them, then that was the first time, however, when First Contact happens, travelling back in time creates a new future, after all, it wasn't Riker who was on the Phoenix, so Crusher et al. didn't know about Phlox's situation because, even though it was a historical event, it hadn't happpened yet. To use a Doctor Who phrase, its wibbley, wobbley, timey, wimey.

[@samuelazzaro]

Very well explained about the lower decks stuff.....except the part about the show not being funny, we'll have to agree to disagree on that 😁

[@ProfCoyote]

I might want to unsubscribe for his hate of Lower Decks but at least he's willing to acknowledge ot as canon unlike the Disco haters...

[@CaptainBanjo-fw4fq]

@@ProfCoyoteWho could possibly hate disco? That’s like hating the land of sun, snow and pink flamingos?

[@AsheLucia]

@@CaptainBanjo-fw4fq its mostly the anti-woke crowd that hates disco. They seem to completely miss the point of startrek.

[@DawnDavidson]

@@CaptainBanjo-fw4fqwell, I hated the Klingons in Disco …

[@dragonmaster501]

​@@DawnDavidson And that's fine, it's just when some people get mad that some people like it. The federation enshrines the right to your own opinions, unless it is forced unfairly on other people.

[@KilravockMusicSWS]

I’d imagine if you asked a Lower Decks writer about that scene they’d probably say it was just a gag and a way to tip their hat to discovery, not invalidate it and then they’d tell you to go outside for awhile and get some fresh air.

[@thomaszinser8714]

I believe the showrunner pretty explicitly said that on bsky. But, well, word of god isn't gonna convince people who want to use things like this to their own end.

[@Frogface91]

I'll never understand the level of entitlement needed to suggest that a piece of entertainment you don't like shouldn't exist/should be wiped from history. The number of people you see constantly trolling the social media posts of shows (that rage grifters have told them are bad) trying to get it cancelled repulses me every time I see it (which is often).

[@The_Lucent_Archangel]

Your lack of understanding doesn't change the fact that Kurtzman himself plainly stated numerous times that his objective is to use Trek as a platform to advance his ideals and outlook on society. That means entertainment and honoring what came before came after that, and it shows.

[@larsg.2492]

Steve isn't far off with his "show bad, jokes bad, don't like" when only remotely talking about LD. 🙄

[@sleepeybunney]

​@@The_Lucent_Archangel (troi voice) captain i'm sensing hostility

[@ANeMzero]

If the Lower Decks gag had instead turned the Klingons into TOS era Klingons, no one would be arguing that it is proof that the original series was an alternate universe, or that by extension Deep Space 9 must also be an alternate universe due to the Trouble with Tribbles episode. Honestly if you follow that rabbit hole far enough *everything* is in an "alternate universe" at which point it's not really "alternate" anymore. Klingons have had dramatically different appearances across different series and it's always just been something Trek has rolled with.

[@blagwedge]

A friend mentioned this whole "controversy" to me, and i told him it was the biggest non-story of the year, propagated essentially by angry children.

[@edwardallenthree]

We need to respect their wishes and not talk about, as Worf tells us.

[@martinschwinzerl3803]

Nowhere in the LD episode does it state that things can change into things that would *only* exist in alternate universes. The show even reflects on this in the previous episode of LD where one character is frustrated that a lot of the stuff seems to just be variations of things that are in "prime" universe (whatever that may be) with some bits flipped around (a reflection and discussion that I found quite meaningful and which could not have been made as easily without the referential nature of the show, Steve's low opinion about LD notwithstanding). Whatever events change the physiology and appearance of Klingons canonically between shows in the series prime universe could just not have happened in that specific timeframe in that particular universe, for example. So yeah, the "controversy" is just a bunch of people that desperately want to stick it to Discovery, even after it has run it's course. But it is even worse than that, because of the above, these people are also really bad at elementary logic. Drawing a "Not B, therefore Not A" type of inference out of the premise of the LD episode should get you nerve pinched by a Vulcan or at least reprimanded by nerds that actually care about rationality, sigh.

[@matthewlamont3112]

A guy I used to know's response to the Klingon changes was "Ethnic variations" on a stellar rather than planetary level. Also (after it's introduction) that the Augment virus only affected a fifth of the Klingon Empire, so not all Klingons were ridgeless.

[@Gormathius]

@@matthewlamont3112 Damn the ethnic variations part is a great explanation, I wish I'd thought of that.

[@antonnurwald5700]

14:20 i find it perfectly reasonable that the borg have technological progress too. And assimilation probably is a complex enterprise, so when you have the processing power of a cube with you, it's fast, but 'field assimilations' are more cumbersome.

[@colinmontgomery1956]

But remember, these Borg were originally from the 24th century.

[@antonnurwald5700]

@colinmontgomery1956 but they were alone, with no computing infrastructure to fast track the assimilations.

[@frenchfriar]

As far as Phlox not passing on his discovery, we're talking about the Borg. I would assume that they would adapt after his failed assimilation, so his case, which was already unique, as you point out, simply wouldn't work a second time, anyway.

[@adamt2017]

This point right here. Two hundred years to figure it out is plenty of time for the Borg. As for the pre-UFP Starfleet, neither Phlox nor anyone else on that ship knew what they were called, so Data’s inevitable comprehensive search of the databases and records in Season 1 of TNG looking for “The Borg” would come up empty. Oddly enough, after Picard hears Lily Sloane refer to them as “cybernetic zombies,” he might think to suggest that search term to Data, which might have generated a hit.

[@welcometogeektown]

My head canon was always that, even if Phlox's discovery was still useful 120 years (or however long it is between Enterprise & TNG) later, as far as I recall, the Borg in this episode never said "We are the Borg," so it would have been very difficult for someone in TNG time to find this specific incident and connect it to the Borg.

[@plasmaburndeath]

I had always assumed the damage done by Pri'Nam D'Jamat deleting huge parts of enterprises computer probably caused lots of records to be lost, sadly there was a technological regression where no one had heard of backing up data, and cloud services were lost knowledge.

[@One.Zero.One101]

That doesn't excuse why he didn't report it. You're using a retroactive excuse of "It wouldn't have mattered anyway", but that doesn't address the character's poor decision-making in the moment.

[@frenchfriar]

@One.Zero.One101 as others have pointed out, Phlox didn't know they were called the Borg, which would make any report he made very difficult to associate with them.

[@SanguineQuest]

22:51 The "I jammed the joke in because I didn't have an ending" story reminds me of how I read an article about how the writers of Avengers: Endgame went through hundreds of ideas for Tony Stark's final words before someone realized "I am Iron Man," was a perfectly shaped puzzle piece.

[@DawnDavidson]

I had a friend who originally misheard that line as “I am all in.” We both thought that also had merit.

[@thedoctor4269]

IIRC, Robert Downey Jr. was that someone of whom you speak.

[@albineigengrau3212]

I have the impression that people are confusing a "prime timeline" with "canon". If there is a multiverse in Star Trek (and there is) and Discovery takes places in one of the alternate universes, then both these things are still part of canon. I mean, the Mirror-universe is still part of canon after all.

[@andrewgrabauskas]

Re: the Lower decks bit: The counter to the disco haters I've not seen anyone use is that the Cerritos itself turned into a Galaxy class for a bit, and therefore by their own argument the Galaxy class isn't canon, and therefore neither is TNG Though of course those folks can be safely ignored

[@alexrobinson8029]

I like Discovery and Lower Decks. No irony, no bullshit, I just think people need to be a bit more positive on the internet, and like you say Steve, they should just say it's not for them and move on. PS: For everyone who loves TNG..... is "Shade of Grey" still canon??? Of course it is. Now calm down and enjoy Star Trek.

[@LexYeen]

Agreed. Discovery and Lower Decks are both great to me, _in their own different ways,_ and they're not for everyone. Like how Picard S2+ isn't for me.

[@mikecaetano]

Discovery actually got back to the science-fiction roots of the franchise. Jumping far into the future? Check. Traveling to a distant galaxy? Check. Finding new ways to communicate with completely alien aliens? Check. Plus Action Saru!

[@DeathBYDesign666]

Why even erase it from canon? It did one hell of a job in erasing itself anyway when you think about it. The only reason it would need erased is because they are planning on going even further into the future of Star Trek, which would still be kinda unnecessary if you go far enough into the future. I don't really care that much but it does seem kinda unnecessary to do so, it's fine, just leave it be.

[@JRMcCarroll]

Shades of Grey is mostly recycled footage of other episodes. If those episodes were cannon, why wouldn't that one be?

[@potato9832]

I enjoyed STD as a sci-fi show but the main issue was the spore drive. It ruins Star Trek continuity and it's unrealistic it would ever be shelved when it was vastly superior to warp drive and was a powerful weapon against the Breene. I think many others didn't like it because they hate LGBT people and black people. They wrap their excuses to conceal their real issue with it.

[@jaradams]

"Thank you and I hate you." That's the greaatest response a commenter can get

[@fatenabu1]

So this may be a weird theory but I always saw that maybe the regeneration episode of Enterprise is actually the point in which the timeline began to shift to the Kelvin Timeline...They knew of the borg and started to make the ships larger and more war like. Then when the Kelvin incident occurred Starfleet even went bigger and stronger and even reversed engineered more stuff etc...

[@BrotherAlpha]

12:00 ... I would much rather have a character pop up and say hi than have an episode where the writers clearly didn't care enough to consider the ramifications of the plot. I've bumped into old friends randomly while going to the store, so that happening in a show is 100% explainable. I've met plenty of people who are obsessed with the past, so someone knowing a lot about a previous episode in a different Star Trek series makes perfect sense. On the other hand, I've never had causality break in real life, so I can't explain why this happened in Enterprise other that bad writing.

[@Fimbulvinter19]

Saying that the momentary gag in Lower Decks is proof that Discovery is in an alternate timeline is both incorrect, and being selectively applied. If Discovery is in an alternate timeline because of the effects the quantum fissure had on the Klingons on that one ship, then DS9 is in an alternate timeline, and so is Voyager, and so is Enterprise; canon no longer means anything (I feel that way about Multiverses at the best of times, they are often a cheap and lazy way to just reset everything without having to put in the work; looking at you, Rick and Morty.) Or, far more likely and easier to accept possibility is that rather than Discovery being in an alternate timeline, what we saw was just a possible universe bleeding through where Tukuvma never died, so the design philosophy he espoused became fully integrated into the KDF, unlike the prime universe where Chancellor L'rel imposed change.

[@ntindo]

"Back in the day, there used to be a magazine that was TV guide and it told you what was on in all the local areas" - damn I feel old. Worst, TV guide was only accurate in "some" markets, if you lived in Central, Mountain, Alaska or Hawaii time it's only use was to tell you a bit about what would be coming on "at some point, maybe this week". You had to rely on local newspapers TV guides.

[@reyperry2605]

Robert Beltran was in Night of the Comet. Maybe that's why he killed that poor little YoH snowball.

[@renatocorvaro6924]

Man I forgot about that. That movie sucked. One of my favourite bad movie experiences.

[@Denise11Schultz]

38:20 Because, like you, I didn’t know Nimoy, and because he was an actor, my chance to appreciate him more was to enjoy his work in other roles. Paris in Mission Impossible (1969-1971) was fun, and in San Francisco in the early 1980s (?), I saw him in the role of Theo, Van Gogh’s brother, in the one-man play *Vincent*. Both of these roles were an intriguing additional window into his talent, if not his personality. Thanks for that trip down Memory Lane.

[@renatocorvaro6924]

Don't forget Galvatron in Transformers: The Movie

[@f0rth3l0v30fchr15t]

Kirk and Spock not getting an 'onscreen goodbye' is some of the realest shit Trek could do. The last words I've spoken to a fair number of friends and family members have referenced actual plans to see each other in the near future, and it just... didn't pan out. Some of them might have expected to live another 50 years, and some, the plan involved me visiting them in hospital, but we thought they had the better part of a year left, at least. To quote Amos Burton from the Expanse, "everyone leaves unfinished business. That's what dying is".

[@rvdsmith]

Steve I don't always agree with you. But I do respect you and your opinion. I never heard of the Lower Decks controversy. You are right. It is just dumb. I like both shows. Lower Decks a lot more than you. You say there is a segment of trek fans who say modern trek is not trek enough. heck this goes back to older trek shows like enterprise. voyager i believe it started with DS9. This weird show on a space station. thats not trek. which is funny cause it is the best trek series.

[@bosyber]

TNG was also 'not the original treck' for many fans when it appeared

[@The_Lucent_Archangel]

@@bosyber This comparison is way overblown. TNG operated in a space where it had to justify itself based on ratings, because ratings meant advertisers buying commercials. It was able to do that past the first 2 shaky seasons. By contrast the streaming model allows corporations to burn money in pursuit of ESG goals because their fiduciary responsibilities are offset by interests which will keep them afloat and seemingly profitable enough to avoid fiscal realities demanding they stop ruining IPs they happen to own.

[@olencone4005]

If Lower Decks made Discovery non-canon, then that also makes Strange New Worlds non-canon since it's deeply tied to Discovery as a spin-off, which then makes Lower Decks non-canon since they had a crossover where the Lower Decks characters clearly knew who everyone was and what was going to happen. It's simpler to just roll with "they're all canon, some are just poorly written canon."

[@michaeldelaney1058]

Picard wasn't just assimilated, he was also kidnapped. He wasn't present for the crew to even use Phlox's anti-assimilation cure because he was on the cube away from rescue. For all we know, once the cube was destroyed, Dr. Crusher did some research and found Phlox's cure and rid Picard of nanites.

[@dragonmaster501]

The Klingon thing is like saying that Galaxy Class starships don't exist because the Ceritos becomes one in that episode...

[@f0rth3l0v30fchr15t]

The 'rule breaking' thing - something that I've seen attributed to Picasso (though he may well have said it in Spanish) was that you had to "learn the rules like a professional in order to break them like an artist".

[@wearwolf2500]

So people are arguing that Discovery isn't canon because it's slightly implied that it exists in an alternative universe? First off, something existing in another universe doesn't mean it doesn't exist in the prime universe. The whole point of the second to last episode of Lower Decks was them finding alternative versions of people. Also alternative universes are canon anyways. The Kelvin timeline is canon, all the alternative timelines in the episode where Worf jumps between universes are canon. The mirror universe is canon.

[@TheMAZZTer]

About the Lower Decks Discovery Klingon thing, the previous/penultimate episode firmly established (it was hinted in prior episodes as well) that there were time differentials between different universes as well, so we saw one character from First Contact and one from Enterprise alongside TNG/LD-era characters despite the time differential. That same episode also established the same people and events exist in many universes. There's a gag with tons of Harry Kims, all of them still Ensigns. So a reference to Discovery-era Klingons means nothing. It was just to make a fun reference.

[@Kartissa]

Not all of the Harry Kims were still Ensigns. There was one who had a second pip on their collar!

[@chuckyhindle1877]

As Voyager and Lower Decks are actually my two favourite Star Trek shows, I feel like under "normal" circumstances I'd be really put off by your content and opinions. But you are so damn reasonable and thoughtful, I find myself agreeing with you again and again. I still like the shows you don't, don't get me wrong - but you've demonstrated that *that's okay*. And ultimately, isn't that the spirit of Star Trek? Thank you, and please keep doing what you're doing sir.

[@anthonymara4533]

When Discovery first began airing, I listened to the loud minority. Everyone said it's SOOOO bad, Destroys Star Trek, It's Not Canon! I didn't hear WHY they thought it was so bad, I took it as face value. Then, I watched Strange new worlds, heard all the references to Discovery, so because I was missing a whole lot of context, I went back and watched it. And let me say, Discovery is one of my favorite Star Trek shows, re learned a valuable lesson. Other people, especially loud obnoxious ones, don't know what they're talking about, and they don't speak for me.

[@BeauSmithFtl]

Amen!

[@The_Lucent_Archangel]

Loud minority. lol The show tanked when they tried to run the first season for FREE on network TV and limped along to more seasons than it would have under the old structure of ratings where they wouldn't have been able to inflate or conceal the number of viewers. The "loud minority" are people who found this agenda-laden tripe entertaining. And that's from someone who watched from TOS reruns as a kid on through ENT sporadically (it wasn't so hot of a show the few times I caught it). I caught the social commentary. I surmised what the politics of the writers, producers, and cast probably were. The key thing is it wasn't slapped across the screen toward the viewer and was delivered in an artfully subtle manner.

[@One.Zero.One101]

How arrogant is it to think that your opinion is right and everybody who hated Discovery is wrong? Yes there are a lot of non-Trek fans who piled on Discovery because of political reasons, but I am not one of them. I'm a real Trekkie and I genuinely hated Discovery.

[@stephenramsey5585]

​@One.Zero.One101 How arrogant is it to think that your opinion is right and everyone who liked Discovery was was wrong? Yes, there are a lot of Trek fans who piled on Discovery for non-political reasons, but I am not one of them. I'm a real trekkie and I genuinely loved Discovery. The point they were making is that by listening to outrage merchants, the forfeited their own ability to form an informes opinion, and when the finally did inform themselves, their opinion changed. You can like or dislike Discovery and still be a trekkie, just like Steve doesn't like Voyager and is still a trekkie. You've gotten so wound up in being right about how bad Discovery must be that you can't even see that nobody is arguing for its objective quality, just highlighting a lesson it taught them in subjective taste. Get off your soapbox, take lesson from EEH Rios, and chill out.

[@MonsterKidCory]

Nobody could tell you why? Really? Discovery is bad because it was a violent show based on a poorly-conceived "chosen one" plot full of unlikable, emotionally-unregulated characters with terrible cinematography that, altogether, fundamentally betrays everything Star Trek is about. I didn't make it past about four episodes, but unfortunately the zeitgeist makes not knowing about the show impossible. I think my favourite thing... the one that really typified everything Discovery was about and why it was so bad... is that SOMEONE WAS SO SAD THAT IT BLOWED UP ALL THE WARPS. I know that a certain type of person thinks that it's the end of the world if they're upset, but those people shouldn't writing Star Trek 😆

[@bolerogamer3320]

Ironically if Discovery is no longer canon, then thanks to the crossover episode from SNW (which is now also not canon, being a direct continuation of Disco) then neither is Lower Decks. Therefore the scene that allegedly makes Discovery non-canon is itself non-canon...therefore making Discovery canon by default. Checkmate, I think.

[@CommanderJeph]

In that same Lower Decks episode the Ceritos gets turned into a Sovereign-class. Does that mean that the Sovereign-class isn't canon anymore? No.

[@allanolley4874]

Canon matters in so far as stories have call backs to earlier events and pay off of earlier things. If there is a call back to an earlier episode's events in a later episode then they are canon. No guarantee its good or an interesting story etc., but that's what canon actually means. I think there can be some value to long term story telling, most obviously in things like series long character arcs that can be very satisfying. In that sense canon can be important, but it's very hit or miss in my judgement. In terms of short term storytelling (the story of a single episode) continuity, canon, the story holding together is very important, but even there a few continuity errors or a plot hole here or there are not really a problem for a story. Compared to hitting themes and interest. I'd say mere consistency is a rather sterile virtue in a story. I wouldn't say it has no value, but often a pretty hollow one, and is no reason to straight jacket writers.

[@DouglasJohnson.]

I can't believe you read my comment! Wow. Thanks again, captain. BTW, I knew you didn't use AI to write something that funny. I don't believe AI could, anyway. "Humor. It is a difficult concept." Your comedic sensibilities, however, reliably hit my funny bone, every time. Cheers, sir!

[@seanmanscott]

Forgive me if this has been asked before, but what are your thoughts on Red Letter Media and would you ever go on their channel to talk Trek with Rich and Mike?

[@darnmarr]

They have so much in common (in consumption of content) and are yet so polar opposite in attitude to that content that it'd be as dull as an arguement between a jesuit and an imam; Steve is half 'out' of the bag.

[@habeebaabbas690]

i used to think manifesting was all about repeating affirmations and hoping for the best. i tried it for months and…nothing. i was so frustrated. then i heard about this book, Vibrations of Manifestation by Alex Lane, and how it breaks down the science and energy behind manifestation. it’s like it flipped a switch in my brain. once i started applying what i learned, things started falling into place like never before. worth checking out if you’re serious about manifesting.

[@williamroeben]

30 seconds in and i was laughing out loud - thank you :) Plus: Everything is canon, especially the parts that contradict each other :)

[@marquisofcarrabass]

What you said about stories being formulaic was spot on. The bring an example from The Other Fandom: when 'Star Wars A New Hope' came out, the number of people who said, "Hey, this is just Kurosawa's 'Hidden Fortress' mixed with a dose of 'Flash Gordon' and 'King Arthur in Space'," was almost none. When 'The Force Awakens' came out, the number of people who said, "Hey, this is just a worse version of 'A New Hope'," was almost everybody.

[@The_Lucent_Archangel]

That's not a symptom of formulaic writing. It's an indictment of people largely being a lot less well-read in recent years than they were back then.

[@Svenne-man-1880]

I think the best way to treat "canon" is to admit the fact that each and every show of Star trek has its own canon that is shaped by the need to tell the stories that the show writers of that show wants to tell and that each episode of a show is its own thing also, basically just either enjoy the show or do not no one cares.

[@Rincenso]

Boom! What do you use for ammunition? Balls of Canon? :P

[@jeffbenson7278]

@@Rincenso I didn't there was any need for cannons after WWIII, but clearly I was wrong!

[@Benjamin.Jamin.]

Eh. Idk. TNG, DS9, and VOY did a pretty good job of dovetailing and not breaking too much elsewhere. ENT was ... Fine.

[@chrisblake4198]

Oh god that Lower Decks thing is even dumber than I thought after hearing you explain it. Part of the conceit of the episode was these other realities had different rates of time flow. That's why they had T'Pol and Curzon Dax in the post Voyager timeline of Lower Decks. Hell, the Cerritos itself turned into an NX class ship for a few seconds. The Disco era Klingons were antique ships ripped out of time, not ships that never existed because of probability.

[@wendyheatherwood]

Exactly. One ship turned into a sailing barge, and the crew of another turned into the Klingon equivalent of neanderthals. Sime of the timelines are clearly not synching up with each other.

[@dragonvliss2426]

While I have written some original stories, I've always preferred writing what could be called fanfic, because I do like having rules and a structure to a universe, and creating stories within the structure of an existing universe, seeing how my own story and characters would fit with the universe. It's the difference between free-form jazz and some classical form of music like a symphony or a dance.

[@DawnDavidson]

Nods. I really enjoy writing free verse, or poetry that doesn’t have meter or rhyme. A lot of people don’t like it, not feeling that it’s poetry without the structure. For me, it’s about evoking a feeling, or painting with words. But I can also see the value in writing poetry with rules, like meter, rhyme, or alliteration. That’s a different thing in ways, and more akin to solving a puzzle. Nothing wrong with either one. Just different. Rules and limits can sometimes be great catalysts for creativity, where a lack of them gives no traction. Glad you enjoy your puzzle solving. :)

[@outonroad]

​@DawnDavidson If you are writing within a franchise with the long history that Trek has though, those rules are essential otherwise you may as well write them as generic sci fi stories that are nothing to do with trek. The 'rules' are what make something part of that universe be it star trek, star wars or anything else that has a rich existing backstory.

[@The_Lucent_Archangel]

@@outonroad When people don't make their work consistent with what came before and inject socio-political agendas to an extent that they override the storytelling (as with several large IPs these days), it also makes it plainly obvious that you aren't confident enough in your own talent and ideas to pitch them without the backing of franchise. Even if you intend to just write whatever you want anyway, because the brand will carry you - at least until the audience had enough.

[@trekman10]

Star Trek is what formed my identity as a fan. I grew up on Mempry Alpha and Ex Astris Scientia. I remember my immense excitement in 2009 at getting new media to add to the wiki and to analyse in EAS only for it to be basically an entirely new and to feel barely connected to what came before. I have warmed to 09', but the appeal of franchises to me is the exploration of fictional histories, peoples, and locations so things like alternate timelines or visual discontinuities like the Klingons aren't my favorite.

[@DawnDavidson]

@@trekman10 Makes sense. Are you neurodivergent, by any chance? For me (ADHD with autistic traits) and many of my friends (either or both), inconsistencies really grate. If there is a pattern, and new data doesn’t fit the pattern, then it feels like an ill-fitting re-design of a shoe you had, loved, wore out, and are trying to replace with the “improved version” of the “same shoe.” Still a shoe. But not the SAME shoe.

[@IanZainea1990]

51:03 in reference to your early comment about canon being useless. Even if paramount did say Discovery isn't canon. Who cares. Enjoy the show if you enjoy the show. If not. Then don't.

[@renatocorvaro6924]

Re: understanding Star Trek You can pretty much boil down Star Trek to three things. 1: Be optimistic 2: Be progressive 3: Be in space Even when Star Trek is gritty and dark, it's still optimistic. Even when Star Trek is toothless and bland, it's still progressive. Even when Star Trek is on Earth, it's in space.

[@RoundingThird]

I thought you were talking about Voyager being erased. I feel like I'm the only person that thinks all of the Borg encounters across all shows are erased by Picard season 2. They went to the past, replaced evil Borg Queen with Good Borg Queen who is just going to stand watch and protect the galaxy, forever.

[@thomaszinser8714]

I mean, they brought an alternative borg queen to the past, namely the one from the Confederation timeline. Given that we know that people from one timeline ending up in a different one can live and survive, it stands to reason that the Jurati Borg Queen simply ended up creating a separate 'collective of free will', and that the primary timeline borg continued as normal. Especially since, as I recall, the borg already existed pre-21st century, so the Evil Borg would simply develop as normal.

[@bobdanley2438]

Disfunc...I mean Discovery should have every recorded mention of it's existance placed on an automated starship and flown directly into a super massive black hole. Forgotten and never to be mentioned ever again...forever.

[@sleepeybunney]

they literally did that in the show & you're still not happy???

[@colinmontgomery1956]

Regarding Phlox's delayed assimilation, perhaps it was also attributable to the Borg drones (and, therefore, the nanoprobes stored within their bodies) having been in a dormant state in the frozen arctic regions on Earth for nearly a century.

[@1andonlytoonkid]

Simply put, no, because CBS considers it canon.

[@EndyHawk]

Regarding actors having an excuse to cut loose, Fringe is one of my favorite shows for exactly that reason. That show kept the sci-fi flame burning during a low point for genre tv's popularity, and despite its weaknesses in the post-hoc-plot-justification department, I'll always have a fondness for it.

[@threeofeight197]

I thought of Steve when watching the lower decks episode he mentions at the end. Alt Boimler being bored and annoyed at the references popping in from other universes is totally Steve!!!

[@threeofeight197]

Like wow. Look it’s a future Klingon wow. Oh wow it’s Spock but emotional. Who cares!!!

[@DneilB007]

22:44 - I live my life chasing a feeling that comes even 1% close to the feeling of self-satisfaction that Steve felt when he read the comment “I live my life chasing a feeling that comes even 1% close to the feeling of self-satisfaction that Steve felt when he perfectly set up that Butler pin at the end”.

[@johnsteiner3417]

I loved Discovery for a number of reasons, but top of them all was the revisualization of Klingons and reworking their persona to make them feel truly alien. T'kuvma's speech subtly lays out that Klingon evolution is the barrier to peaceful coexistence with the Federation.

[@BeauSmithFtl]

Amen.

[@kanahaiyayadav2934]

a while back, i hit a point where i felt like everything was out of my control. i kept wondering why other people seemed to get what they wanted while i was stuck in the same place. then i came across this book called Vibrations of Manifestation by Alex Lane. i wasn’t expecting much, but the way it explains the connection between your energy and the life you create? it blew my mind. it’s not just a book, it’s like a blueprint for turning your life around.

[@Kinsfire]

I love that you are willing to thank someone (and 'hate' them) for coming up with a pun or joke that you wish you had.

[@bluwusky5167]

About the Lower Decks/Discovery klingons thing- there was never any indication of the rift altering time or making anyone time travel, most of the different variations the Cerritos was transformed into were ship classes of a similar age to itself, so I took the appearance of Discovery-type klingons as them being from an alternate dimension where klingons just... still look like that in 2382. Maybe it's a world where chancellor T'kuvma and his nationalist ideology were much more influential, maybe there was something a bit different about their evolution, it could be anything really

[@sapphichazard]

You apparently missed the point where a Klingon vessel turned into a seafaring ship, which was directly subsequently recognized by the in-universe characters (something they could not have done, if that ship did not exist in the *past*).

[@DiamandaHagan]

The most you can say about it is that Disco happened in an alt reality that looks different but basically the same events happened, looking more normal in the main universe too. But that's kinda silly.

[@MrLtia1234]

"ah ha! We win" is accurate and very telling about how these people think. Very sad. No, you don't 'win'. Crying Star Trek is definitely over forever and Discovery is cancelled during season 1 and then it really getting cancelled after *five seasons* isn't a win for you. At all. Also see: all the other made up nonsense from KZbin for other TV shows.

[@f0rth3l0v30fchr15t]

Maybe the thing with Q is that he just likes bald people. So if he'd waited until S4 of DS9 to show up, he'd have got on great with Sisko.

[@johnpowers9058]

For the "Watsonian" reasoning it could also be that the Borg nanites were also not functioning as they normally would be due to not only being damaged from crashing into the planet, but also frozen for nearly a century.

[@citrinedragonfly]

The discussion on the TV Guide took me back. I used to collect the TV Guides with Star Trek on the cover. That first look at Deep Space Nine was one I kept for ages and ages, because I imprinted on that show so hard. Much as I loved TNG, DS9 was "my" show. And anytime Star Trek was highlighted in TV Guide was super special, because no, it wasn't given a spotlight as often.

[@tekkaoz]

One of the biggest reasons I think modern trek shows have been so hit or miss is the move to series long arcs. Not SNW or LD, those are episodic shows with arcs in the background. Discovery and Picard are all about the seasonal story with the episodes existing to serve it, which requires a really good seasonal story to work. The whole streaming thing makes them go all-in on those seasonal stories as well, they are no longer able to pivot from something not working, see all the dropped plot-lines in TNG/DS9/Voyager that were clearly going to start arcs but just didn't work. Now the entire series is in the can months before the episodes drop, so if it doesn't work they are out of luck.

[@danieljanz4229]

The fact that fans take a "dumb gag from a dumb show" to de-canonize Star Trek Discovery is proof on how deeply annoyed (at least some) people are with the current state of Star Trek. I can't blame them because I as well hated Discovery for its poor storytelling, his over-the-top reliance on childish behaviour and actions of the main cast and its nehilistic depiction of violence or relationships. In my personal view it would have been better if that show was never made!

[@joshuaflores209]

Maybe you mentioned it, or it's been discussed in the fandom consciousness and I missed it, but speaking about S2 of Picard: Maybe I'm misremembering the timeline of events, but it's weird that they started advertising S3 as S2 was still airing new episodes. We're doing all this time travel, fate-of-the-universe nonsense in the show, wondering about the fate of our heroes and the fate of the Star Trek universe as a whole, and then ads for the next season are like "The TNG Crew is BACK, baybeeee!", which really kills any momentum about the ending to S2. If I know they're all gonna make it back okay because I know they're going to do a TNG Reunion Season after this, then what's the point of watching S2? Especially since the ending to S2 featured The Borg having a Good Guy Faction now, and then S3 had The Borg as the Bad Guys All Along. What a weird, narratively consequence-free TV show.

[@fragglet]

I think one of Enterprise's problems was that it seemed to be chasing ratings. They went as far as to drop "Star Trek" from the series title in the first couple of seasons for example - presumably because they thought some people were put off by the idea of watching a "Star Trek series"? My take has always been that Season 4 was a big improvement over the previous three just because it seemed they were willing to make episodes they knew the fans would enjoy. Actually from one perspective the whole season is practically a fan service nerd-out.

[@SeventhSwell]

That Lower Decks bit could just as easily be used to say Lower Decks is the show that isn't canon. After all, it would mean Lower Decks took place in an alternate reality where Klingons never looked like season 1 Discovery Klingons. Did the nerds not think of that? In the end, who gives a crap about canon. SNW Enterprise doesn't look exactly like the TOS Enterprise. Why aren't they up in arms about that violation of the precious canon?

[@ricaard]

My answer to Phlox's resistance to assimilation would be Michael Keaton's Batman's answer to Time Travel: it's a splintered Timeline, which would have nothing to do with TNG's Timeline. But also, the Denobulan physiology thing.

[@Gormathius]

25:29 Jesus, I keep thinking I've heard all the best takes about media, then you drop gems like this. Thank you, Steve, for consistently encouraging such a healthy mindset about media.

[@jamesaddison3962]

I actually like all star trek. Even discovery.

[@fluffycritter]

There is something deeply sad about the idea that creativity has been so devalued by AI that anytime someone is creative they're assumed to be using AI.

[@cyberaxe_lznj]

14:28 - You could easily say a few things related to Phlox and Born tech... This was a top secret military op, all the information could have been classified. This was before "United Federation of Planets" it was instead "Earth Starfleet" there is nothing saying the information from "Earth Starfleet" was provided 100 percent to "the Federation", you could even assume Section 31 would have removed any information on the Borg from the record. You could also assume the temporal agents would have removed this information so the timeline would have been safe for TNG.

[@dvpierce248]

Re: Janeway in The Thaw. I think the implication across several episodes of Voyager is that Janeway takes a certain pleasure in _permanently_ ending threats to her crew. More than perhaps befits a Starfleet Officer. Certainly she doesn't put the effort in doing things like sticking Moriarty in a memory box or something.

[@jercoxthealmighty]

From what i am half-remembering reading, i think the discovery klingon bit in the lower decks finale was put in there knowing fully well how a certain segment of the fandom would react. If nothing else, i can respect trolling of that magnitude. And my watsonian explanation would of course be that the discovery klingons were an attempt by Klingon scientists to reverse the augment virus that made the tos klingons, but it kinda overcorrected and spread like a second augment virus, with infectees becoming a shade closer to their prehistoric ancestors. This would of course mean that, during the 23rd century, there were three different... Races? Subspecies? Types? Of klingons roaming the quadrant at once, but everything stabilized by the time of the V'ger encounter. As for the bit in discovery? Maybe in an alternate universe, Klingons as a species decided most of them actually prefered the Discovery version of themselves, so it follows that by the late 2300s, all klingons looked that way instead of their more familiar look. Really not even THAT hard to wrap your head around if you really want to. Like almost all the pieces are in the established canon, and the few that aren't are not huge leaps in logic

[@The_Lucent_Archangel]

The number of "watsonian explanations" and "leaps in logic" required outside of onscreen evidence for Kurtzman Trek (with very few exceptions) are an indictment of bad writing. When your audience has to fill in the gaps or worse, you have to commission writers and artists to "add context" with books, comics, etc. later it means you've failed at telling a story that's so much as internally consistent to itself. Let alone to anything that came before it.

[@zotaninoron3548]

The borg may take time to adapt the assimilation process to each species they encounter. The first human assimilations aren't particularly rapid. Future Borg may also have adapted to various counter measures into the far future that enable accelerated their capacity to assimilate.

[@deanthemachine8879]

9:47 I’m rewatching DS9 from the beginning and the first nonpilot episode Past Prologue has the Duras sisters show up and Sisko gives the perfect amount of background info for people who didn’t see their episodes of TNG “They started a civil war in the Klingon empire and have been on the run” which would believably be the knowledge for the Starfleet commander of a space station who isn’t directly involved in Klingon history and politics. Now if that had happened on a show like Lower Decks, the characters would have gone on to reference stuff specific to those episodes including what Picard did and Worf’s plot points. I *hate* that shit SO much.

[@chrisblake4198]

14:41 there's also the fact that most assimilations aren't catch and release, using unsupported nanites. Even in First Contact those crew were held prisoner on parts of the ship with Borg systems implanting themselves. Not unreasonable to assume in addition to surgical assimilation by drones, there is network and power broadcast support enhancing the function of the nanites. Also, a non meta way of saying your first reason would be ;because time travel.

[@stanthedrybear]

My head canon for Phlox's "de-assimilation" not mattering in the 24th Century is that it's been centuries and somehow the awareness of that weakness for the nanites got back to the Borg and they adapted.

[@JacobHollner]

I appreciate you. Keep it up and happy new year! Thank you Steve.

[@rpottage]

Lower Decks didn’t remove Discovery from canon; the lack of Riker did. All post-TOS canon shows had Riker for at least one episode. Thus the lack of Riker means Discovery isn’t canon.

[@thomaszinser8714]

Clearly everything post-TOS other than Discovery is just old drinking stories from Riker. How true any of it is a seperate question. (/s)

[@HarveyMidnight]

k, The claim is that, in the finale of Lower Decks, the Klingon ship was transformed by 'the anomaly' into a Disco-style Klingon ship, and *supposedly* the anomaly only changes stuff into stuff that DOESN'T exist in the main timeline. Therefore, those Disco style Klingons don't exist in the main timeline, ergo Disco must be in an alternate reality. Well... ...That would mean Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan has ALSO been erased from canon, since the same anomaly changed the Cerritos into a Miranda-class ship--- as first seen in ST II. That's a pity.

[@wendyheatherwood]

The Cerritos also changed into a Galaxy class briefly, and if the Galaxy class isn't canon, then neither are TNG or the opening episodes of DS9.

[@Redshirt434]

The reason Phlox didn't get assimilated immediately was 1) the Denobulan immune system, and 2) using Omicron radiation to destroy them would've killed anyone else.

[@singularrookhart7501]

Decades prior to the mainstreaming of fandoms, fans' primary means for establishing a hierarchy (humans, amirite?) was lore knowledge. Trivia. While less prevalent today, the streak remains. Thus, when certain fans have to fold in certain aspects that they don't like in order to stay at the top of the hierarchy, they become unsettled. Decanonization spares them this. It also contributes to the love of gratuitous fan service: you can Leo point and thus feel acknowledged by your fandom.

[@Vertelemming]

Rules are there to make you think before you break them. There may be good reasons to break it, but you always need to think about _why_ the rule exists first, because it's usually there to protect and help you. This doesn't just apply to writing; it's a philosophy to live by.

[@rmdodsonbills]

Continuity and long-form stories are a pretty recent phenomenon because of the difference in technology available. In the 60s when TOS was on the air, and we didn't have media to do home video, you had basically two chances to see any given episode, once during the regular season, and once during summer re-runs. And so, your storytelling needed to fit in one episode or an occasional two-parter or people would miss part of the story (be it because of weather interference with RF signals or the normal crises of life). Well, there's also syndication which had to at least been on the horizon because I remember watching TOS when I was a young boy. But still, syndication isn't in the cards for a show that was only on for one season, and a show that couldn't gain an audience because people kept missing important parts of the plot would have missed that boat too. You might get the occasional call back, but that was about it. Beverly Crusher using technobabble shield tech from a previous episode to allow the Enterprise to hide in a star's corona was pretty remarkable to me back when it first aired because such things so rarely happened. Dr. Phlox's anti-assimilation tech, besides being a unique situation, is also two whole centuries in the past of the next Starfleet crew to encounter the Borg. Yes, the Federation is good at keeping records such that Picard's Enterprise can learn from McCoy's investigation of Weird Intoxicating Water(tm) but with no Borg contact in the interim, that's something that could easily be lost or at least hard to find. And since they only encountered the Borg then because Q popped them to the other side of the galaxy (where no human had gone before) would they even think to look? I'm sure there are other factors that could explain why anti-assimilation wasn't a thing until they had to get Picard back. And any combination of these factors could be at play. Ironically, your advice for dealing with Q prompting you for Star Trek ideas is basically Beckett Mariner's strategy: don't engage, even to the point of running away if you have to. I agree with you completely on body-swap episodes generally. I especially like it when the actor has to play the other character trying to act like the original character. I'm specifically thinking about Sara Michelle Gellar playing Faith in Buffy's body trying to convince others that she's really Buffy by doing her best Buffy impression. That's some subtle acting and done really well in that episode. And Eliza Dushku's performance the other direction is every bit as good. I think it's weird that one crossover episode with a live-action show is enough to "make" Lower Decks canon (despite it containing a species that can exponentially and instantaneously duplicate individuals) and then control whether or not a live-action show is canon despite it being specifically, explicitly, and officially declared to be prime-timeline canon. That's some chutzpah right there.

[@AndrewJamesGordon]

The thing about the Klingon redesign in DISCO and SNW, and the fact that even though it’s a prequel yet looks more futuristic than the shows set hundreds of years in the future can be boiled down and explained by us the viewer seeing the Trek universe through a different lens. The Klingons to the in-universe characters look the same from TNG all the way through SNW (with the exception of TOS which was needlessly “explained” in that ENT episode.) the Enterprise NCC-1701 is the same ship across TOS-SNW but depending how we see it, it looks brightly coloured and somewhat dated, or sleek and futuristic, but to the crew it looks exactly the same.

[@Peregrine57]

I think the main reason the Roddenberry Archive needs to cram Yeoman Colt into everything, aside from nostalgia obviously, is because Mahé Thaissa has such a striking resemblance to Laurel Goodwin in the role that they want to get as much in as they can.

[@no_no_just_no]

11:33 the reason is because they don't know its the Borg. Just a horrifieing alien encounter. I'm sure various records would have been kept but the Federation hadn't even been formed yet and its another 200 years (?) before they are encountered for the first time and even then its in the Delta quadrant. So my answer would be that Log didn't survive, Log survived but no one read it when they researched the borg When the Log was read in researching the Borg they were misidentified.

[@mtbelley]

About the point of Flox curing the Borg nanobots, I prefer to look at it like the MCU. It created a branched timeline. That was also something that they talked about in an episode of TNG.

[@scottbutler5]

I don't know when "canon" came to be defined as "stuff the fans have to like" but we really need to undo that shift. It would fix so much fandom drama. Plus a lot fewer people would gaslight themselves into liking the SW prequels.

[@Netherfly]

I don't know how you can sit there and say Kirk and Spock never got to say goodbye to each other, or that their farewell isn't a scene we needed, when *The Wrath of Khan* is right there. They already said their goodbyes! It was a really touching scene! It's one of the most famous scenes in film history! The AI-generated slop is just a (much) worse version of something we already had, that was great. Just like all of the different and progressively worse TNG finales. Or the Khan nonsense in 'Into Darkness.'

[@TexasCat99]

46:25. That's right. With out Discovery, there would be NO Strange New Worlds. There are issues about Discovery and a lot of cool stuff with Discovery. Season 4 is bad, it's pretty much season 3 redone. With added flamethrowers to the bridge. I hope they decided to fire the guy who thought having three or four spots on the wall shooting flames out in unison was a good idea. If the ships on fire, it stays on fire. Took seconds to notice in every battle... Same fire. Another weird issue on Discovery was the turbo lift fight scene. They spend several minutes fighting outside of the turbo lift cabin. It's not that big of a ship. It should take about 20 seconds to go from one end of the ship to the next. And the ship is hollow. With robots constantly doing things in the background. Discovery is okay. He doesn't deserve the hate. It has not been removed from cannon because of lower decks. I know the KZbinr in mind... Such a hateful nerd. He screamed how much Lower Decks was going to suck before it aired. "Woke" crap. The final of Discovery didn't de-canon anything. Or if anything, it made Discovery more a thing.